Healing and Philosophy

Shift of perspective

Hi Starshower,

Really exciting to read you post.

Hello Norbu. As always, you raise some extremely interesting points, but in a wordy way that I find hard to follow (Like me, then! Not a criticism - just an observation.)

I find it hard to follow too! I think its nearly impossible actually. And not easy to put into words because, in the end, we are confronting the limitations of conventional language.

To clarify - are you suggesting that healing is somehow a matter of effecting a shift in perspective?

Yes (within certain limitations of language at least). I wouldn't claim that the shift in perspective is causative, although it might be, but it certainly is, I believe, correlated with healing or is the healing itself.

Poor ole Descartes gets a lot of unfair stick here, imo.

However it is the split between res cogitans and res extensia that is, imo, very close to the heart of the problem.

Many people misunderstand him - he was astonishingly ahead of his time & more in line with modern thinking!

You clearly know more about this than I do. However we are still left, today, with the problem of the split between res cogitans and res extensia.

I see his distinction between 'res cogitans' or 'thinking thing' and 'res extensa' or 'extended thing' as a basic differentiation between 'thought' & 'extension in space'.
To me, this would distinguish 'inner' from 'outer' ... subjective from (apparently*) objective ... qualitative from quantitative ... which leads me to think 'self' & 'other'.

I think there are distinct parallels here between these two sets of divisions. However, imo, all distinctions are merely convention and functional. They are not ontologically valid...(Well sort of, I think! And I think you see this problem from what you write later in your post. Lets call what is ontologically valid as "ultimate reality.")

A relevant quote from a Buddhist philosopher:

When there is self, one believes there is other,
From these images of self and other come attachment and aversion,
As a result of getting wrapped up in these,
All possible faults arise.

Dharmakirti.

Cause & effect. This, of course, has never been / can never be proved in any instance. All we can have, as Hume said, is "constant corellation".

I think this is related to the fact that cause and effect depend on ontological distinction and ontological distinction is merely convention and functional. In Buddhist philosophy the notion of self existence of any substance or named entity is shown to be false. (There is still the problem I alluded to above which I called "ultimate reality.")

Perhaps we can get to a place where the apparently objective 'outer' & the experiential 'inner' merge - or in fact are already One!

I think this is what happens when we experience "healing." We experience "ultimate reality." Yet somehow, we do not disperse, we remain, we return; renewed. (Perhaps neither separate nor "One".)

'Objectivity' isn't possible - only points of view.

So long as there is a separate self, and separate mind and body and projections of self existence onto conventions of language [and sense perceptions]. (Still there is that which I have designated "ultimate reality" for the sake of convention :confused:)

Forgiveness, cleansing, feeling/being 'holy' seem somehow deeply connected with bodily health ... and more than health ... 'miraculous' abilities to transcend our perceived limitations & divisions.

I believe so.

. So, we are asking (asking whom? Perfected Human Nature?) for Wholeness, Holiness, Purity, Strength ... Love.

Now I think here that the value of conventional language begins to break down. However, I think these words: Wholeness, Holiness, Purity, Strength... Love...(the field) and Perfected Human Nature (Buddha Nature; the potential for a fully aware subject) are good words for "ultimate reality."

But who are we asking? Who is there when the distinctions of conventional language are gone? We require a "provisional" notion of the "ultimate reality" to work with. I do believe that understanding the use of this tool is the most powerful vehicle for achieving healing. It is also hard to use because it continually test faith and understanding. Doubt disturbs the focus of attention and focus of attention must be firmly established. This is difficult when you see that the object of the focus of attention is merely your own conceptualisation of a "provisional" notion of "ultimate reality." I believe that contemplation and meditation are the only ways to master this. Again this is where words do finally fail as the perspective shifts.

Norbu

How far could our expectations of what will happen be reflected in the result?

In the very first place when I decided that I needed healing I didn't know what to expect. I didn't want to go to someone and that someone try to influence me with their version of how it should be for me, so I decided to try self healing for myself and see if it was "real".

I took the view that I could stop at any time if I didn't like it, whereas if I was having a treatment then it would be harder to just say stop midway to a healer.

I also thought that it might be a possibility that I might be attuned in that I would be shown symbols to use in a similar way to reiki.

What happened wasn't what I expected. I didn't need to remember anything. I just began to learn what Love feels like.

It felt like I could breathe properly here for the very first time.
And I remembering saying... what is that?
It felt like breathing in Love.

Just not expected and still as awesome.

But my thoughts... we each have our own experience....

What happened wasn't what I expected. I didn't need to remember anything. I just began to learn what Love feels like.

It felt like I could breathe properly here for the very first time.
And I remembering saying... what is that?
It felt like breathing in Love.

Just not expected and still as awesome.

Dear Flit,

Your posts always inspire me and wrap me in God’s love! Thank you! Your experience is possible (in fact, eventually inevitable) for everyone!

It's when we yield up our mortal thinking and connect to the divine that the transformation happens:
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The manifestation of God through mortals is as light passing through the window-pane. The light and the glass never mingle, but as matter, the glass is less opaque than the walls. The mortal mind through which Truth appears most vividly is that one which has lost much materiality--much error--in order to become a better transparency for Truth. Then, like a cloud melting into thin vapor, it no longer hides the sun. (Science and Health 295)

That's what you are Flit - a transparency for God, who is Life, Truth, Love!

I love this insight by Mary Baker Eddy:
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“I saw the love of God encircling the universe and man, filling all space, and that divine Love so permeated my own consciousness that I loved with Christlike compassion everything I saw. The realization of divine Love called into expression “the beauty of holiness, the perfection of being.” (S&H p 253) which healed, and regenerated, and saved all who turned to me for help.” (Reminiscences by Abigail Dyer Thompson in We Knew Mary Baker Eddy p 68)

While teaching a class on Christian Science healing, she asked her students the best way to heal. They gave various answers, but she replied:
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"Just live love - be it - love, love, love. Do not know anything but Love, Be all love. There is nothing else. That will do the work. It will heal everything: it will raise the dead. BE nothing but love."

It’s love that permeates everything you write Flit!

Love and peace,

Judy

Dear Flit,

I have read your post over and over again. It is hard to put into words what reading it feels like but I'd just like to thank you for it.

I think it's very interesting, Judy, that Mrs Eddy asks her students what the best way to heal is:

While teaching a class on Christian Science healing, she asked her students the best way to heal. They gave various answers, but she replied:
[COLOR="Navy"]
"Just live love - be it - love, love, love. Do not know anything but Love, Be all love. There is nothing else. That will do the work. It will heal everything: it will raise the dead. BE nothing but love."

I think this makes most sense but it isn't so easy to understand with our thinking mind, it's more something that we just have to come to know and trust. I think perhaps that explanations can get in the way of this because explanations can just lead to more questions.

It may not be the best method but other methods do, it seems, include: psychological processes (conscious and unconscious); physical interventions that have a direct effect on the body physiologically and; energy healing that acts on the subtle body.

Perhaps we could say there are the following five aspects or approaches:

1. "Love"
2. belief
3. unconscious
4. physiology
5. energy

Allopathic medicine attempts to diagnose and treat only gross aspects (4.) but a significant element of the outcome of allopathic treatment is placebo (2.).

Approaches that focus on energy healing (5.) base their diagnosis on the flow and balance of energy. Adjusting the patterns of energy has a physiological and psychological effect. Often there is a slow response time frame for physiological effects. Placebo (5.) is also likely to be important.

Counseling helps to undo habitual negative patterns (3.). These patterns may be stored in energy (5.) or physiology (4.) and reflected in beliefs (2.). Counseling may really be operating using "Love" (1.), belief (2.), unconscious (3.), and energy (5.).

Holistic approaches may use all elements. I think its clear, though, that all of these elements are interconnected in health and sickeness.

On a different tack, however, Flit raises a really important question in her last post:

I didn't want to go to someone and that someone try to influence me with their version of how it should be for me, so I decided to try self healing for myself and see if it was "real".

The results of here experiment were as we know:

It felt like I could breathe properly here for the very first time.
And I remembering saying... what is that?
It felt like breathing in Love.

It would appeart that Flit's desire for healing combined with her openness and a desire for a direct knowledge or truth rather than handing responsibility over to a third party (healer) brought about what she reports.

Norbu

Hi norbu, thank you for sharing.

It may not be the best method

If you are you and I am me and Judy is Judy, how can we each know the "best" method for each other?

We share and hope it somehow might illuminate the ways we are.
For the way we are is unique and like no other.
Growth....not a one in a moment process, but continual and always.

I would just like to share a word... connection.

all of these elements are interconnected

It is the connection that allows us to be wholly and completely who we are.

But who are we asking? Who is there when the distinctions of conventional language are gone?

I asked with the whole of my being to be connected and I asked when I did .....because it felt right to..

We require a "provisional" notion of the "ultimate reality" to work with. I do believe that understanding the use of this tool is the most powerful vehicle for achieving healing. It is also hard to use because it continually test faith and understanding.

I continually question myself and my understanding. And I ask to let go of what I need to when it feels right. I try not to use healing as a tool, but more to simply allow it when it happens.

One of my first memories of healing for another is this...
Sitting in a cafe and knowing of the flowing, knowing that it is simply pure Love and looking around not knowing who it is for or why. I sat in awe and still do when it happens.

I know that it is allowing, in the living...... the key is to simply allow the connection.

The ulitmate reality is who you are... Loved with no conditions.

And I believe that leads to being able to allow Love with no conditions.

And hello Judy. Thank you for your words. :hug:

The best way to do INSTANTANEOUS healing

I think it's very interesting, Judy, that Mrs Eddy asks her students what the best way to heal is:

OK, before anyone starts getting hung up on a single word, I managed to find the page that I copied this from. As I said, it was during a class that Mary Baker Eddy was teaching in Christian Science healing, or Mind healing (Mind being one of the synonyms for God). Remember that this is a reminiscence, not a transcription. I’ve sometimes read the accounts of students of the same class and they have differed slightly, in the words they use. What I’m saying is that it’s possible she didn’t use the actual word “best” but I will copy the whole quote – it’s the spirit of the meaning I’m trying to share, not trying to claim superiority in one way or another for goodness sake! Besides, she was asking her students the best way to do instantaneous healing (sorry, I had forgotten the word instantaneous) - it wasn't a comparison between this and other allopathic or complimentary or alternative methods (which frankly, are very rarely instantaneous) - it was a comparison between the various methods within Christian Science healing (but as Flit's example proves, we are talking here about universal divine laws.)

Then she asked us questions. “What is the best way to do instantaneous healing?” Many arose. Some said, “Realize the ever-presence of good”; others, “Deny the claims of evil.” There were many answers, but when they had finished, she said, as I remember: “I will tell you the way to do it. It is to love! Just live love—be it—love, love, love. Do not know anything but Love. Be all love. There is nothing else. That will do the work. It will heal everything; it will raise the dead. Be nothing but love” (Sue Harper Mimms in We Knew Mary Baker Eddy p. 134)

I did a search on "instantaneous" in Eddy’s writings. Obviously, Jesus’ healing was always effective and instantaneous (apart from one incident with the blind man in Mark 8.) But he also had the divine wisdom to be able to pick his patients – like he only went to the one invalid at the Pool of Bethesda and the Bible records that in his own country, “he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.” (Matt 13)

[COLOR="Navy"]If Spirit or the power of divine Love bear witness to the truth, this is the ultimatum, the scientific way, and the healing is instantaneous. (Science and Health 411)

This article on three stages of healing is interesting (I’ll just copy excerpts) and one of the passages in it led to a remarkable healing which I will copy below:
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Less teaching and good healing is to-day the acme of "well done;" a healing that is not guesswork,--chronic recovery ebbing and flowing,--but instantaneous cure. This absolute demonstration of Science must be revived. To consummate this desideratum, mortal mind must pass through three stages of growth.

First, self-knowledge. The physician must know himself and understand the mental state of his patient. Error found out is two-thirds destroyed, and the last third pierces itself, for the remainder only stimulates and gives scope to higher demonstration. To strike out right and left against the mist, never clears the vision; but to lift your head above it, is a sovereign panacea….
Learn what in thine own mentality is unlike "the anointed," and cast it out; then thou wilt discern the error in thy patient's mind that makes his body sick, and remove it, and rest like the dove from the deluge….

The pent-up elements of mortal mind need no terrible detonation to free them. Envy, rivalry, hate need no temporary indulgence that they be destroyed through suffering; they should be stifled from lack of air and freedom…..

The second stage of mental development is humility..... One can never go up, until one has gone down in his own esteem. Humility is lens and prism to the understanding of Mind-healing; it must be had to understand our textbook; it is indispensable to personal growth, and points out the chart of its divine Principle and rule of practice.

Cherish humility, "watch," and "pray without ceasing," or you will miss the way of Truth and Love. Humility is no busybody: it has no moments for trafficking in other people's business, no place for envy, no time for idle words, vain amusements, and all the et cetera of the ways and means of personal sense…….

The third stage of mental growth is manifested in love, the greatest of all stages and states of being; love that is irrespective of self, rank, or following…… (Miscellaneous Writings 355)

Here she repeats it again – love is the greatest of all stages and states of being. Sometimes, we have to pass through all three, other times, like Flit, our thought is such a transparency for Truth (God) so uncluttered and pure, we get straight to stage 3.

That being said, here is a healing from stage 1, which I have copied from my healing through the Christ Consciousness thread.:

This woman’s home was in the desert in the south-western United States. She had been having many problems in her life at the time. One hot evening, while doing the dishes, she saw in horror a bobcat approaching her children who were in a plastic swimming pool outside.

She grabbed a small handgun intending to shoot it into the air to scare the bobcat away. The gun exploded in her hand.

Neighbours ran over and called a doctor to come to the house while she wrapped her hand in a towel and phoned a Christian Science practitioner (healer) who then started to pray for her. The doctor arrived and took her to the local hospital where he cut away metal fragments, nerves, tendon and flesh. After cleaning and bandaging it he recommended a trip to a major city hospital for reconstructive surgery, or he warned, she would have limited use of the hand and even with surgery would probably never regain the feeling in it.

She reminded him that she had just started to study Christian Science and he knew of the overnight healing of asthma of one of her children – in fact, one of his own children had been healed through Christian Science – so he was willing to take her home instead and leave the matter to God.

After her neighbours had put her children to bed, she picked up the first book of Mary Baker Eddy’s she saw and it opened to page 356 where her eyes fell on these words:
[COLOR="Navy"]The pent-up elements of mortal mind need no terrible detonation to free them. (Miscellaneous Writings)

"At that moment it was quite clear to me that the explosion of the gun in my hand was a graphic metaphor for the state of my life at that time. Both the bobcat and the gun seemed to illustrate the fear and chaos in my life, and I knew it must stop."

She read on:
[COLOR="Navy"]Envy, rivalry, hate need no temporary indulgence that they be destroyed through suffering; they should be stifled from lack of air and freedom.

"I put down the book, Then I finished the dishes with one hand and went to bed and slept all night free from pain. When I woke in the morning I removed the bandages and found that my hand was absolutely normal. There were no marks or scars, no sign that anything had ever happened to me.

This experience changed my life forever." (From the French Herald of Christian Science March 1989)

Love and peace,

Judy

OK, before anyone starts getting hung up on a single word

Hi Judy,

Sorry for clumsiness and thanks for your further explanation. It is very interesting in deed to try and understand how this works. It is hard to explain and for sure there are different approaches and each suits a different person at a different time but I do believe there are common patterns and overcoming negative emotions and the thoughts that we sustain them with is a fundamentally important part of the process. As is realising that all we see around us not quite as it seems perhaps. In a way we construct all sorts of theories that tell us that things are more substantial than they really are; in a similar way we give ourselves all sorts of reasons for hanging onto destructive feelings. Recognising this is one thing. Casting off these negative patterns can be difficult even if they result in nothing but suffering.

I guess the only thing that makes sense is that there's not much sense in it all apart from something that maybe is called "love." Even then I hesitate...

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,
For intellect is grounded in the relative.

Shantideva

But somehow what this word "love" represents is something that cannot be denied like all other propositions: existence in this, existence in that, or even the existence of the negation of existence in this or that.

When we conceptually understand that what appears to be real is nothing but a dream, the possibility of what this word "love" may bring remains in our hopes. So we may tire of things which say "I exist" but we then somehow have to find a way across the "the bridge of hair"* to an encounter with what this word "love" represents.

It may be necessary to see the trap that one has fallen into before one can make a plan of escape. Somehow we are caught in a trap that we have come to realise is only a dream; we have to recognise that we are dreaming. We then have to dream a dream in the dream; a dream that is connected with what we imagine is somehow touched by what this word "love" represents. But where is the trap? Where is the dream, when the encounter takes place?

Hi Flit,

Thanks again for you post. What you have written comes through very clearly. It is a real pleasure to read.

As I have mentioned above, I'm sorry for my clumsiness with words but I do think that, in the end it is something that you have called Love that is the key to it all. Finding a way to "allowing" it is the challenge. You explained:

I asked with the whole of my being to be connected and I asked when I did .....because it felt right to..

Here we have to recognise a lack of connection then ask... then maybe wait... then maybe witness...

Perhaps the hardest bit is not the asking but really feeling it is right to do so. This, I think, takes a great deal of understanding. At least I don't find it so easy. Maybe it's about being willing to let go of how things are not connected because this (being disconnected) gives us a sense of being an independent self?

I think, maybe I understand that I'm dreaming I have an independent existence but I think I've got a lot more asking, waiting and witnessing to do yet!

Norbu

*"bridge of hair" comes from "Love is like a bridge of hair over a chasm of fire." This is comes from Irena Tweedie's account of here experiences with her Sufi teacher who used this expression. The abridged version of her diary is titled "Chasm of Fire."

The hardest thing for me is to ask, in the belief that I am somehow 'worthy' and able to receive ...and then to receive Love. Even typing this hurts.

Isn't it strange how different our perceptions are of what is the most difficult challenge, Norbu? In this 'apparent reality' of 'separateness' & ego personality in a supposed 'physical' world of 'separate' bits & pieces?
For me, it is obviously & easily 'right to ask' ... whereas for 'me', 'now', being willing to receive is well-nigh impossible, short of a miracle ...

(Ye gods, you are SO right about the limitations of language & semantics, Mr. N! ) I hate to sound pretentious with all those apostrophes - but how else can I use everyday terms, which we all must understand & use on a mundane level, whilst indicating that I question (or even deny) their ultimate realities?

Dear Flit - how do you do it??? xxx

Dear Judy - I'm still working on understanding you. Meanwhile, I appreciate your posts, despite my rebellious, analysing nature naturally questioning your proselytising of a specific dogmatic teaching. I'm beginning to think you may be right ... though I baulk at 'guru'-led dogma. Mea culpa. Work in progress... just to say I owe you a Thank You! xxx

Dear Flit - how do you do it??? xxx

Oh Starshower*** I don't know...
but thank you so much for this question. :hug:
Thank God for your question...
I was on the point of not saying anything more....
because I don't get it right, I struggle so so much, I swear,
I cry, I laugh, I live and I love
And I sometimes wish I wasn't here
and I don't know why I post as if I know how you can be you...
I don't know how to be you
I only know how to be me.

It is a struggle at times
but in the middle of it all
I am stupidly obstinately me
And somehow along the way
I have been touched by the beauty of who we are.

The hardest thing for me is to ask, in the belief that I am somehow 'worthy' and able to receive ...and then to receive Love. Even typing this hurts.

Yes yes yes! I sometimes don't even know the words and feel so so inadequate and have to ask for help with the asking.

I feel very uncomfortable with the idea that I can ".... do it"
The answer is I can't.

The asking I did/ do.
It sounds like I ask nicely.
I don't always, sometimes I get so so cross and I get to a point where I am ready to walk away and at times I have, because I know that the text book answer is to ask and then you will receive and then when you do ask, it then seems like nothing and then you start to wonder what the problem is because you have asked like it says to ask and then ..... nothing?
That doesn't seem fair does it?

It is your relationship.
Ask and then listen.
Listen and wait.
Listen to your heart, the whisperings within.
Look out see what touches you deeply, what moves you,
what inspires you
what makes you feel so so you.
It is that relationship which you already have.

Feel and be you...
it is what you are here for...
It is in you

I think it is difficult to approach this subject without the risk of invoking guilt.

Who is healed and who isn’t? Why? Why not?

Saying that, I think it comes down to belief. I share my belief with you:

No matter what source you trust or what methods you employ, I think it is all, if you will, a placebo effect. What happens depends upon what you think—with all your heart—will happen.

Stepping back a bit, let me also say that the things that we encounter as un-health arise from separation from the unconditional acceptance that accompanied our beginnings. We arrive or are conceived with all of the wholeness that we accepted at that time. At conception there is no dearth of oneness from our source, although there may be from the physical beings who are our parents. Conception begins the growing with one and the growing into the other.

The first new thing we learn as infants is the existence of boundaries. “No” confronts us at every juncture. We learn that we can’t, shouldn’t, aren’t good enough. No-no! Bad! Is it any wonder that we feel unworthy?

Even our religions, in many cases, make us focus on our shortcomings. Confessions and statements of humility. Memorized rites and ritualized mantras. Self-flagellation. Admonitions to remove ourselves from the mainstream of life.

We learn, well, how to feel unworthy.

Somehow, and often on our own, we have to discover again he way to portray the magnificent being that we are. We have to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps to affirm and believe, “I am a loving being!” Because we are loving beings, we deserve the Love that accompanies us through every moment. That’s not IF we act lovingly or do things perfectly, or forgive everyone. It is that we are what we are! =)

When it comes to healing, the acceptance and acknowledgement of who we are brings connection to the Love and separation from un-health. We become the demonstration and illustration of wholeness and Oneness. We let go of fragmentation.

As humans, we argue for the healing events that have worked for us, but I suspect that everything has worked for someone, somewhere; prayer, chemicals, energy, meditation, holy artifacts, bathing in specific places, you name it. There are the exceptions, of course, of cures posed by those who want to take advantage of others, but even they can be effective if the one who accepts them is sincere.

Think about it: whatever works has to be available to each of us! We cannot care about the name of it, or the celebration surrounding it, or whether or not you cross your eyes and stand on one foot. If healing works for one, there must be some way that healing can work for all.

And I think, Starshower, that you have discovered the secret. You must feel that you deserve to be at One with Flit’s Love—that whatever it is that actuates the process of healing, or the instance, or the instantaneous. Not necessarily a forever Oneness, although that would certainly be fabulous, but finding a knowing somewhere deep inside, for however long you can keep it, that you are worthy of being whole! It’s a beginning.

Then, having found it once, it is easier to know what you are looking for.

And here’s the guilt again. Do I really deserve it? And if I got it right once, what did I do wrong that keeps me from finding it again. And if I really found it, should I have? Was it all a mistake? I know all the things I do that aren’t right or kind or even close to nice. See? I don’t deserve it, so I can’t take it.

This is the hard part to me. We must accept that who we are and what we do is always acceptable to Love. That’s the definition of unconditional! There is nothing you can do, or be, or think, or imagine that can cause this Love to be shut off from you! Only your thoughts of unworthiness can close off your acceptance of what is there anyway and any way. In this Flit is everyman. Thank you, Catherine! :043:

Ah now the placebo effect.

While researching the essay that gave rise to this thread, I discovered that current thinking is that the placebo effect doesn't exist as we have grown to know it - i.e. an effect provoked by a belief.

Currently placebo is being deconstructed into its constituent parts. The parts would include:

- The therapeutic environment
- A feeling of being taken seriously
- Good communication betwen doctor and patient

Ring any bells, anyone? The difference between complementary therapies and allopathic medicine here is that CAM recognises the effect of the environment and communication on the effect of the therapy on the individual, whereas allopathic medicine prefers to ignore it and give it the label "placebo".

There is an article in the New Scientist that examines this in more depth:

Ah now the placebo effect.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the link - it's excellent!

Did you see this amazing video about placebo surgery?
[DLMURL] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3632381798967472933 [/DLMURL]

This is a good one too:
<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/33/the_healing_power_of_placebos /"> http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/33/the_healing_power_of_placebos /[COLOR="DarkGreen"]
Ultimately, the placebo phenomenon points to a strange paradox in modern medical science. As soon as an alternative-health treatment proves successful, it is dismissed as the placebo effect. It works only because people believe in it. Yet this explanation appears to contradict one of the foundations of medical science, which stresses that the mind and body are separate, therefore ruling out the possibility of healing through belief.

This blind spot exposes a painful reality in our health-care system. It is noteworthy that the debate over the ethics of placebos—Can patients be denied an effective treatment?—is conducted only by conventional-medicine practitioners. Sometimes that debate is a harsh one. Some argue placebo trials should be abandoned and pharmaceutical companies should find more responsible ways to test new medicines because patients may risk harm by being treated with inactive substances. Alternative practitioners are sometimes accused of endangering patients' health by using unproven treatment methods.

Outside medical circles this is an irrelevant conversation. To the vast majority of the public, it's more important that people get better than that their treatments be scientifically proven.

Love and peace,

Judy

PS Thanks for starting this thread - it's been fun and really interesting!

Hi Chris,

Great article! It demonstrates how closely intertwined mental and emotional states are with the physiology of experience. I think everyone here doesn't find that such a surprise but it's great to see better and better "placebo" science going on.

Now let me suggest another causal pathway that can effect healing: It has been demostrated that heart patterns of a comatose patient change in response to the presence of compassionate carer. The heart patterns of the comatose patient become synchronised with the heart patterns of the compassionate carer. Compassion is integral to a state of mind that is "healing." Compassion/kindness/a loving attitude/ peacefulness is associated with hormonal and cellular responses that promote healing (stress inhibits healing and is associated with the etiology of many diseases). Part of the complex physiological, emotional and conceptual dynamic of any emotional state is the heart rate pattern. In this case heart rate pattern is being echoed in a comatose patient even when there is no conscious activity (potentially stimulating hormonal and cellular healing responses).

If it is possible for electomagnetic wave patterns to be communicated from heart to heart, how much more likely is it that there is some kind of resonance effect with eclectromagnetic patterns from brain to brain. Maybe there are other electromagnetic resonances between other organs (I'm thinking particularly here of the spine, nerve complexes and plain muscle; diaphram and perineum for example (subtle energy centres). There may, of course, be quantum effects also. I propose the healer may master these patterns of activity in their own body thus effecting beneficially the patient. There are also the "stories" the healer relates, the sound of their voice, their movements, their smells even. All of these subtle things are only possible if the healer has done a great deal of personal searching and development (if they are not relying on commonly held assumptions like the effects of an allopathic intervention).

The point I wish to make is not that the belief of the efficacy of the treatment is the only factor in a placebo (as you point out, Chris) but that the degree to which the mind is mastered is significantly important when the placebo effect (or should I say healing) is being stimulated. To facilitate, good expectation, a positive emotional state, and healing electromagnetic resonance effects in the patient, the healer must maintain these states physiolgically and neurophysiologically and express this through "every pore in their body" as well as in their actions and the "story" the tell. If the physiology of an individual experiences patterns of anger, fear, self-indulgence, dishonesty etc that result in stress there will be traces of that behaviour in their cellular memory. And you cannot maintain any emotional state without focus of attention. To do this: to maintain certainty that supports focus of attention on compassion; that does not waver with fear, the healer must have released the ideas of attachment to "self" that could result, if under threat, in fear or anger, to the degree to which they are able to heal. This is why healing is a "spiritual art." This is why ethical living is important to the healer. This is why philosophical certainty in the emptiness of the notion of material causality (or causality of any self existing substance) should be attained by the healer. At least, the more subtle the exterior vehicle of treatment, the more the healer is responsible for the process through their mind, physiology, energy, speech etc.

The healer must be free from any doubt; and this autonomy can only be based on the above disciplines (unless they are using widely accepted interventions such as employed in allopathic treatment). Any compromise to this autonomy limits their skills to expected parameters of the tools and the model of healing they use and the general assumptions that support them (as in the case of allopathic medicine).

Of course there are examples of persuasive healing techniques employed by "charlatans" or "sheep" (allopathic medicine?) that may be effective in some circumstances, which are not based on the degree of integrity and understanding that I am proposing but I think their efficacy will always be limited because they are build on sand (an exterior cause and effect).

Norbu

The hardest thing for me is to ask, in the belief that I am somehow 'worthy' and able to receive ...and then to receive Love. Even typing this hurts.

Starshower, you are a unique, essential, irreplaceable part of the universe and you are already dearly dearly loved by Love. The universe would not be complete without you! Of course you are worthy! I love what Holos has said too.

Dear Judy - I'm still working on understanding you. Meanwhile, I appreciate your posts, despite my rebellious, analysing nature naturally questioning your proselytising of a specific dogmatic teaching. I'm beginning to think you may be right ... though I baulk at 'guru'-led dogma. Mea culpa. Work in progress... just to say I owe you a Thank You! xxx

I am very deeply touched by this Starshower. Thank you., But “proselytising of a specific dogmatic teaching”? 😮 I’m really sorry if that’s how it comes across! :022:

If you had a recipe for a cake that was absolutely delicious and always worked (when you followed the recipe), wouldn’t you want to share it with friends? And when that cake heals incurable and terminal diseases and people are suffering and in such hopelessness and despair, wouldn’t it be wrong of me if I just kept it to myself?

Starshower, if I took away the dreaded word ‘Christian’ and instead used one of the other names Mary Baker Eddy employs to describe the system of healing she discovered, would you feel differently? For instance, if I were writing about Mind-healing (Mind with a capital ‘M’ being the one divine universal intelligence) would you still feel I was “proselytising”? Is it Christian Science that you think of as a dogma or is it your perception of what Christianity is, that seems to you to be dogma? (You see, I can analyse too!) :p

Merriam-Webster:
Dogma

1 a: something held as an established opinion ; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b: a code of such tenets c: a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

'Guru'-led dogma – oh crumbs! 🙁 Think of Newton when he discovered new rules of mathematics. He did all the hard slog, he put it all down on paper. Of course those mathematical laws had always existed and were available for anyone else to discover, but he was one of the first. OK you can say you want to make your own discoveries – fine, but I ask, “Why re-invent the wheel?” :confused:

The way I see Christian Science is that it is the explanation of universal divine laws of Love, which are available and applicable to everyone, just like the laws of mathematics or music. After all, an atheist, a Muslim, a Pagan, a Buddhist etc have the same access to the rules of mathematics.

In the case of Science and Health, these laws are described from a Christian perspective because a) Mary Baker Eddy found them through a 3 year study of the Bible following a healing on what should have been her death bed and b) she considered that Jesus understood and demonstrated these divine laws in a wholly unique and perfect way (though of course, he said, “He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” John 14)
[COLOR="Navy"]
Jesus of Nazareth was the most scientific man that ever trod the globe. He plunged beneath the material surface of things, and found the spiritual cause. (Science and Health 313)

Jesus taught us to walk over, not into or with, the currents of matter, or mortal mind. His teachings beard the lions in their dens. He turned the water into wine, he commanded the winds, he healed the sick,--all in direct opposition to human philosophy and so-called natural science. He annulled the laws of matter, showing them to be laws of mortal mind, not of God. He showed the need of changing this mind and its abortive laws. He demanded a change of consciousness and evidence, and effected this change through the higher laws of God.…
Jesus stooped not to human consciousness, nor to the evidence of the senses…..
Jesus required neither cycles of time nor thought in order to mature fitness for perfection and its possibilities. He said that the kingdom of heaven is here, and is included in Mind;… (Unity of Good 110)

Having said all that Starshower, there are thousands of people who use some of the ideas in Science and Health to help them understand their own religious teachings better; (a Muslim man drove 300 miles to come to a talk at a MBS exhibition at Kempton Park because he said that Science and Health was helping him to understand the spiritual meaning of the Q’uran.) Others use it purely from the healing point of view, like Ennemoser did at the beginning, (in the link above) Often when I work at MBS exhibitions, Reiki healers, Spiritual healers and many others come up and tell us how they use the book in their own healing practice. Other individuals, who might have bought the book the previous year, come and tell us of their healings. One chap waved his arm around the exhibition, as we closed one night and said, “None of this would be here had it not been for the radical discoveries of Mary Baker Eddy.” (I was quite taken aback by that!) Now I doubt that any of them will ever step foot in a Christian Science church, but that’s OK. If they are getting healings from the book and limitations of thought are being removed, that’s brilliant!

I don’t post on HP to try to “convert” anyone and as I said above, I’m sorry if that’s how it comes over. What I really enjoy doing is challenging thought. Making people think again, question old perceptions and look at things anew (especially “religion”!) 😎 ‘Enuff said.

Love and peace,

Judy

I share my belief with you

Thank you for your sharing, thank you always!

Hello. Holos - YES! I agree strongly with everything in your last post - wonderfully put. 🙂
Thank you, Principled. I can see how passionate you are about Mary Baker Eddy, and have no objection whatsoever to your quoting her so often with the good-hearted intention of helping others with her 'recipe'! I didn't mean to sound critical & am sorry if I did.
I just meant to be honest & admit that personally, I skip through the frequent long quotations of anyone else's ... (ok, not 'guru' if that word offends, but ... teacher?) since I prefer to engage with people's own thoughts & words directly on forums.
That is not to say that I may not read her books sometime!

My late father had a Christian Scientist friend who was constantly quoting her for years when I was young, so perhaps that has put me off. It was impossible to have an open, mutually-respectful conversation, or respond & be heard, since the wall of quotations (as a weapon? or shield?) blocked any real communication, rather like it does with Jehova's Witnesses.
But I do understand that my ingrained 'conditioned response' is totally inappropriate in this case, and again I apologise unreservedly, Judy.

I have been a genuine, sincere Christian for most of my life, and see huge amounts of 'good' in it. However, I have outgrown the need to be ruled by strictly applied rules & habits inflicted from outside my own soul's sincere desire, or by misogynistic, imperial 4th century dogma (when 'Christianity' became formally defined at the Council of Nicea) and dissociate myself from all the war-mongering, slave-trading, inquisitions, genocide, torture, abuses, mind-control, arms-trading, gross materialism & enormous money-grabbing (at the expense of the poor,) oppression, violence, vainglory, bullying etc that has unfortunately gone under that banner over the centuries.
But, as I often affirm on here, I love & revere the life & teachings of Jesus (Yeshu) above all.

Back to the topic!
Placebo! I so agree with Holos, that everything is 'placebo' in healing. Acceptance, expectation & feeling 'worthy' are intrinsic, imo. I was not using the word at all dismissively!
I only wish the mainstream medical establishment wouldn't dismiss so many very real, measurable healings as 'only placebo' in trials. If healing happens - it happens. And if it does so without drugs, surgery or negative physical side-effects, so much the better!

Strangely, if I look deeply inside & get in tune with my real, though hidden (from myself) feelings, I've noticed that any ailments sort-of feel 'right' (?!) in that they somehow reflect or express what is 'wrong' with me / my life ..... which parts are not serving me or others well, & need changing.
My recovery really does seem to reflect my improved state of being, my attitudes & responses being more healthy & positive.
I wonder if others feel the same?

This is obviously not an 'objective' observation - & hence not scientifically demonstrable, (as mainstream science usually, though not always, works at present) - but then, aren't wellbeing, health & healing, by their very nature, intensely SUBJECTIVE experiences? I see recognising this as a big part of the way forward.

This is obviously not an 'objective' observation - & hence not scientifically demonstrable, (as mainstream science usually, though not always, works at present) - but then, aren't wellbeing, health & healing, by their very nature, intensely SUBJECTIVE experiences? I see recognising this as a big part of the way forward.

Hello

Well there you have a point. Health is not just not being unwell, nor is it suffering from a condition that needs "curing". Ill health is not a condition of loss or inequality, nor is it a missing chemical. It has a lot to do with attitude and belief. The definition of "healing" has a predicate, and that is the definition of "health". Thank you.