Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

they are pretty much the same except Chinese acupressure uses mainly fingers and thumb pressure whereas, Japanese shiatsu uses not only fingers and thumbs but palms, heels of hands, elbows, knees and feet.

the use of TCM and meridians and points are still there for both.

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

To add to what Rosie said, Shiatsu is concernened with the meridian as a whole, not only the "dots" (acu-points) on it. I am not sure if acupressure deals only with points or also with the "line" (meridian) between them?

Artemis

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

hmmm interesting. i suppose the idea is that if you are working the points, it is radiating through the meridian anyway. but as far as i know, you just work the points rather than the line.

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

In my understanding, any given point influences only so much of the whole meridian. May not even go as far as the next point... In Shiatsu I was taught to visualise the whole meridian and not just focus on only the part I am working on.

Artemis

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

acupressure is acupressure , Shiatsu Therapy is Shiatsu therapy. They are as different as apples and oranges.
The meridians source point can activate the whole meridian as well as any master or couple point may have influence on some meridians as a whole.

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

To reply to the inference that Japanese Shiatsu uses not only fingers and palms but also elbows knees and feet is ...wrong... By legislation from the Japanese Ministry of Health one must only use the hands and fingers..there is no mention of any other body part.
Shi = finger atsu= pressure.. Did we miss something

Derivative forms may teach the use of other body parts to apply pressure, but one is supposed to have already qualified as a practitioner before taking on advanced practices and techniques and then they do so at their own risk.

I am doing my best to leave my opinions out and only use facts as written in history.

Shiatsupractor

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Re.

Facts as written in history

Facts are rare things indeed (if they exist at all) and facts as written in history, well they're even rarer.

Within any health care system (and life come to that) the general accepted premise is that there is only ever evidence. Evidence that supports a theory or practice, evidence that negates and evidence that does neither.

This is done, not only because that seems to be the nature of things and humans are rarely objective, but also to keep the peace.

Stating something as a fact assumes that anyone with a different opinion is simply wrong, which does little for diplomacy or debate.

Is the applicator body part really so critical?

Are you suggesting that not having the appropriate digits excludes someone from qualifiying and practising shiatsu or just that they wouldn't be as good at it?

Andrew.

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

If you are saying that if someone did not have fingers then yes, after all if you dont have fingers how can you play a flute?? Fact as decided by legislation, it is a beginning once there you are free to go where ever you wish but you have to get there first. Believe what you wish it does not change anything. Debate i am willing to debate always but I still know the truth. This of course is nothing against any of you all, it just means you do not see or know the truth yet but that could change with any luck.
Remember there are 2 types of opinion mine which you are entitled to and yours which is none of my business.;)

Shiatsupractor

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

The western world is innovative in my opinion, that which cannot grow will be set aside.Thank the heavens the world of Shiatsu is a free world. Bruce Lee the martial artist once said except no limitation as limitation and I have found that to work for me.

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Debate i am willing to debate always but I still know the truth. This of course is nothing against any of you all, it just means you do not see or know the truth yet but that could change with any luck.

This forum is a discussion forum, and discussion, in my opinion, is not about "I know the truth and you don't". We do not all agree on everything all the time, but that is what makes HP such a great place: we can chare each others opinions. What I read may or may not change my opinion, or what I write may or mauy not chnage somebody elses opinion. But HP is not about "evangelising" and making people "see the truth".

Artemis

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

This is interesting!
The significance in acupuncture of needling a point is primarily it's effect on the organ of the channel, as well as the whole channel itself. Stimulating a point activates the channel which activates the deep pathway to the organ which is being treated.
Is there not the same sense of treating organs in shiatsu?

I believe acupuressure and shiatsu are somewhat different, but couldn't say for sure how. I feel there is a sense of acupressure being "acupuncture without needles" whereas shiatsu is a therapy in its own right without any reference (or dependence) on acupuncture. That's just as I see it - feel free to correct me!

Best wishes
Aragorn

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Hi Aragorn,

There are many different styles of Shiatsu. In Zen Shiatsu -the one I practice- we foucs on the whole meridian (we usually work all along the length of the meridian), so the acupuncture points along it will be covered along the way. Now if a client comes with a specific symptom, I include in the treatment some points that are good for his condition, whether they are on the meridians I am working on or not. I choose wich meridians to work on (usually 2) by doing what we call "hara diagnosis": that is palpating the abdomen, which has indicator zones for each meridian. Some practiotinners prefer to palpate the back. The points we use in Shiatsu are in the same as the acupuncture ones. Meridian pathways are not always the same: in Zen Shiatsu we have, on top of the "calssical" acupunture chanels, what we call "zen extensions". For some of them they correspond to part of the inner pathways. But not always. So all meridians in Zen Shiatsu run in the legs and in the arms. Spleen has an extension in the arm and Lung has an extension in the leg. Functions of the meridians can change a bit too (no tfo all of them). For instance Triple Heater is associated with the imune system (as well as Lung). Also as well as the physical aspect, the emotional function of the meridians plays an important role. In practice, I do not always keep "acupuncture (TCM) theroy" and "Zen theory" separate in my mind. With some clients one theory works better, and with another the other rone. Oh yes, and there are those for whom Five Elements theory "fits" more...

Artemis (who hope all this makes sense...)

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Thank you Artemis. Interestingly this is very similar to the integrated style of acupuncture that I practice. I use hara diagnosis as well sometimes, but always the pulse and tongue. Japanese-sytle acupuncture uses the hara as a primary diagnostic as well as the pulse. I know about the zen extensions, but don't use them to needle. (Again they feature more in Japanese-style acu).
However, when you treat channels through your hara diagnosis, is there no sense of accessing the channels to treat the organs corresponding to these channels?
I suppose I mainly treat organs, as it is the organ that has the function that becomes imbalanced. Is this just another way of looking at it? In Shiatsu, do you regard the channels as having the functions. rather than the organs?
Also, very often there are "channel problems" where pain or discomfort is localised to a channel and doesn't necessarily have a correspondance to the organ system. In acupuncture a treatment might include using points to "clear the channel".
Finally - I don't know how to separate the emotional and spiritual aspect of the organs from their physical functions! That's the beauty of this holisitc system to me. I understand that TCM-only acupuncturists are more concerned with physical function, but even then the emotional aspect cannot help but be affected also, to a certain extent.

Best wishes
Aragorn

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Hi Aragorn,

You really set me in the reflective mode. Thank you.
I don't always use tongue diagnosis (I am still trying to get my head/fingers arround pulse diagnosis) since usually (there are always exceptions to the rule!) I go with what the Hara diagnosis gives me anyway. At times they both fit. at times they don't. But if someon comes with a condition taht is clealry a channel blockage (like sciatica pain running along Gall Bladder or Blader) I will treat the corresponding chanel no matter what my diagnosis is. And I may or may not also treat meridians from my Hara diagnosis.
I was told that Hara diagnosis is more about the "here and now" state of the client but tongue reflects more the shortish term condition. When you think of it, makes sense that tongue coating and cracks do not change from hour to hour, but energetics can change really fast.
I see the organs as part of the chanel, so by rebalancing the energy in the chanel (between chanels) I also rebalance the organ. So I guess that I mainly treat chanels, if I had to choose. However I do not tend to hold a clear separation between the channel and its organ. I know someone who has boundaries problems (always either too much or not enough boundaries) and, guess what, she catches colds all the time! So with that person I "treat" (meaning keep my focus more on) the organ when she has a cold, and focus more on the channel the times she does not have a cold.
I can't remember if there is an "official" Zen Shiatsu theory about functions being in organs or in the channels. Definitely for Triple Heater and Heart Protector it can't be the organs.... But thinking about it, I never had the physical bladder organ in my focus when treating a back problem. I always think "Bladder pathway". But then I never has someone with say, cystitis and a sore back at the same time.
It would be hard to needle the extensions, since they do not have "tsubos" (points) on them!
As for separating emotional from physical aspects, I agree with you: how do you separate two sides of the same coin? Or two ends of the same rope?

Artemis

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Hi Artemis
That's an interesting and useful insight into Zen shiatsu.
The hara, like the pulse is able to change very rapidly - indeed this is how I monitor a treatment and know when to take the needles out if they are retained. The Tongue tends to show longer term imbalances, but does (or can) change quickly when there is pathogen present (e.g. Wind-Cold) or when there are acute digestive problems (e.g. retained food).
I know what you mean about the bladder channel in cases of bad back - funnily enough I don't have the organ in mind either - I tend to see it more as clearing the channel, but when strengthening the underlying weakness in the Kidneys (which govern the back) it is definitely an organ thing!

BTW the Heart Protector does have an anatomical equivalence - the Pericardium is the organ that surrounds the heart.

Do the extensions have no tsubo at all? I thought there was a point on the heel that related to the Heart channel?

Aragorn

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Do the extensions have no tsubo at all? I thought there was a point on the heel that related to the Heart channel?

It's just the end of the Heart extention. No they have no tsubos at all. Or at least they have not been localised and described...

Artemis

RE: Shiatsu and Acupressure,the same?

Great discussion, I'm enjoying reading this