Who knows about enneagram?

I love the Enneagram, it is a wonderful and complex system for personal and spiritual development, and to me has unlimited possibilities and applications.

Peter McNab of [url]Excellence for All [/url]in Warrington teaches occasional Enneagram workshops - I did an introductory 2-day one last year and it was fabulous, can very much recommend it.

There are great books as well, [url]The Enneagram Made Easy [/url]is a nice one for complete beginners, and [url]The Wisdom of the Enneagram [/url]is an invaluable and comprehensive volume for any enthusiast.

Masha (Enneagram No. 9)

I was reading about Enneagrams recently in a book I got second hand. Can't remember what it's called as I've left it at work.

I found it interesting, but then also a little confusing as I can see how people can sort of fit into one of the types and how you can sway one way or the other to it's neighbouring types etc., but then that sort of leaves it a bit wishy washy and in essence gives it a bit of a "cover-all" principle, so that it can easily fit any personality. It's interesting, but I've yet to figure out how it can really be of benefit... still reading though... 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I found it interesting, but then also a little confusing as I can see how people can sort of fit into one of the types and how you can sway one way or the other to it's neighbouring types etc., but then that sort of leaves it a bit wishy washy and in essence gives it a bit of a "cover-all" principle, so that it can easily fit any personality. It's interesting, but I've yet to figure out how it can really be of benefit... still reading though... 😉

It can be really confusing indeed (it took me a couple of years of intermittent reading to understand what my type is and the significance of this - and I only really understood it after attending a workshop) - and it does depend on which book you are reading, as some can be a bit superficial. We all indeed could have traits from different enneagram types - but once you do identify your type accurately (and most people misidentify themselves a number of times), things fall into place.

Masha

Hi Masha!
I am 9 as well, and it took me 2 years to find it out as well!
Though I never attended any workshop.
I really love to be a 9!

I reacted the same as you Giles... just go on 😉

"gives it a bit of a "cover-all" principle, so that it can easily fit any personality."

We can fit in all types, but one type is fundamental for each of us, and it is not easy to go that deep inside... So it looks as a "cover-all", but when you go deeper and deeper, you find it is the opposite, it is endless. Then you find a benefit. We can behave like any type, adapting to the circumstances, but our type is our most automatic reaction, and it comes from our fundamental fear. Our best qualities are hidden behind that fundamental instinct, fear, that keeps us alive.

I was also introduced to the Enneagram by Peter McNab, when Excellence for All were based in Rossendale. They do get about. We did it as part of the master practitioner of NLP course, about ten years ago. On Peter's recommendation, we did a further two courses in it at Emmaus House in Bristol, which we recommend, if they are still running it.

Yes, people think it puts you in boxes, and turn up their noses at it - particularly if they are involved in counselling, as we are. However it is a powerful shortcut to personal and spiritual growth. It highlights the hidden motivations and values behind the various exhibited behaviours.

A good site is . They both have "find your type" quizzes which are interesting and worth doing, although I agree with comments already that its best to find your own, and to keep checking that decision out as personal work is done.

Courses are better than books: there is nothing quite like being in a roomful of people of your own enneagram type and comparing notes. (well, that's what my type did - another group went to the pub!)

Anyone care to guess which space I occupy? - and the group that went to the pub?

I can usually make a good guess at a person's type by watching them drive up, park, and get out of their car, but then I do have a bit of experience at it, now. (And I'm not always right ;))

Courses are better than books: there is nothing quite like being in a roomful of people of your own enneagram type and comparing notes. (well, that's what my type did - another group went to the pub!)

Anyone care to guess which space I occupy? - and the group that went to the pub?

Will hazard a guess - your enneagram type 5, the pub group type 7? 🙂

Masha

I also thought group 7 went to the pub!
And I was also thinking about 5...

Masha, what 9's would do?
I have an idea...

I have never seen any course (advanced...) that would gather one type only, that would be great. Or may be even better, a group of people having the same center: That would be great to compare. What makes you angry? How do you react?

Will hazard a guess - your enneagram type 5, the pub group type 7? 🙂

Masha

The pub group were certainly all 7's. They did the work, but it wasn't really finished off, but they had a good time doing it.

I have a son who self-identifies as a five, his hobbies are chess, bridge and studying statistics. He earns a fortune as an actuary, which he enjoys greatly. 5's tend to be a lot more abstemious with their words and communication than me, worry a good deal less with how they appear to others (he played chess once covered in sick after a car journey to a competition, which bothered him not at all but wiped out his opponent) and would rather be reading or studying than contributing on a forum, unless it was educational.

He would have replied to your post:

yes(7), no(5)

and that would have been it, except of course he IS a 5!

I'm a 6 with a 5 wing (at the moment, anyway!)

Whilst not wishing to turn this thread into a seminar, what the 9's did was sit in the garden, make sure they were out of draughts and comfortable, yet in the sun, and with a nice view, with a drink, and then have a communal chat, some of which was about the task. No-one wanted to decide what was presented, or to present the work, so after the chat and having all made a few notes (insisted on by the 9 with the 1 wing) a nine with an 8 wing summoned some energy and more-or-less presented the results (or her version of the results) while the other 9's leaned against walls and bits of furniture trying to look inconspicuous.

Motivation is the central point... Why and not what we do!

I think that 6 comparing notes wanted to be sure about their notes.
Good pupils?
And they wanted to feel part of a group.

Can you tell us about what the other types did?

I'm a 6 with a 5 wing (at the moment, anyway!)

Do you mean we can change? I was told I was a 7 but someone else is quite sure I'm - oh I can't remember now. And one of those online questionnaires has me down as a 5. (I'm going to do the other questionnaire and see what happens.) I would love to do a course and learn more - I only ever did a very brief two hour workshop and learned the basics.
Edit to say that the second test (actually the first one in the post) has me as a 7 with an 8 wing.
xxx

No, a 6 will stay 6.
But he can develop another wing: a 7.

No one and no test can tell you who you are.
You must look for it yourself (with a book or in a course).
The journey is worthwhile...

The best way to type yourself:
Try to find what is your preferred order in using heart, head and gut.
You always use all of them, but every one as a preferred order.
Let's say:
- you plan, do it and feel satisfied
= thinking, action, feeling.

- You want to help after an earthquake, you send money, you think you should have sent it to another organisation
= feeling, action, thinking.

- you react with instinct, it results in a conflict, you feel moved, you think about what would have been a better way of doing it...
= action, feeling, thinking.

- something gets wrong at work, you organise a meeting to talk about it, then you send a mail about the solution you have chosen.
= feeling, thinking, action.

You should find out what is your usual reaction, the spontaneous one.

If you don't, try to figure out if you react differently when you feel all right or when you are tired (stress...).
You may discover that what comes first when you're ok comes last when you're not!

A friend of mine first reacts with emotion, but she was puzzled she felt empty and distant. "What's going wrong?" ... "The boss is ill, I work too much"...

Of course this is the first step only, but believe me, find it first, or you will get lost!

Do you mean we can change? I was told I was a 7 but someone else is quite sure I'm - oh I can't remember now. And one of those online questionnaires has me down as a 5. (I'm going to do the other questionnaire and see what happens.) I would love to do a course and learn more - I only ever did a very brief two hour workshop and learned the basics.
Edit to say that the second test (actually the first one in the post) has me as a 7 with an 8 wing.
xxx

In my experience with the Enneagram, no-one can accurately tell you which type you are (ok, others may guess but it can be unhelpful and confusing - for example, according to different websites, Barack Obama is most frequently identified as number 9, but often also 3, and sometimes 2, 4, 8) - and the questionnaires are not necessarily accurate (I was mistakenly convinced for some months that I was a 7 after completing one of those) - the only reliable way, I think, to really find out your type is to do experiential work, like a workshop, and get a proper feel for what you are.

Speaking of Barack, this is a really fun cartoon enneagram test for his supporters (the typing based on the reasons for their support during his election campaign)

Masha

There is another good reason why typing yourself is best.

Suppose (as I did) I self-type as an e3. I look at the type, and I think, Oh S**t, this is all about maintaining an image and being casually dishonest and deceptive in support of that. I recognised those characteristics within my personality, I realise they've got to go, I stop lying, get out of image-supporting debt, change the red sports car for a mini-metro (I kid you not) and after a few years work much of that is done.

Then I go to Peter McNab's workshop and am drawn to the unmistakeable conclusion that actually I'm, basically, an e6. That doesn't mean I've wasted my time at all! In fact anyone with more than a superficial knowledge of the Enneagram will tell you that by working through my e3 issues I will have destressed myself enormously.

(Can you work out why, in enneagram terms, this has to be true?)

What it means is that I was behaving so inauthentically I had other stuff to work through before I could get in touch with my personality. And, of course, as I tell my clients, the desk has to be cleared before we can really have a good look at the person sitting/hiding behind it.

Actually, I don't think my personality will need re-typing again. I'm afraid (enneagram joke, there) that e6 sums up my personality's strengths and weaknesses very well. And now I can and do work transpersonally, it behaves itself most of the time.

(I was mistakenly convinced for some months that I was a 7 after completing one of those)

Your sig, by E B White, sounds like a 7 to me! 😀

Your sig, by E B White, sounds like a 7 to me! 😀

"I wake up every morning, determined to both change the world and have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning the day difficult."

😉

That sounds 9 as well....
I hope every morning I will do it all, I will change it all.

Every one make new year's resolutions?
9s make new day's resolutions.... 😀
Don't you Masha?

Planning something impossible is the best way to do nothing, as 9s know!
Having a good time is not only 7...
Planning can be very difficult for a 9...
I can do soooooooo many things in one day!
Everything but what I had planned...

Can you work out why, in enneagram terms, this has to be true?

3, 6 and 9 are part of the triangle...

David and Masha, can you both tell about personnal examples in how you order "thinking, action, feeling" ?

I act, think and feel...

I cannot decide when I think about something. So, I usually just start! Then it makes me think about what, how... very quickly. Feelings? Well I feel good, or I feel bad... not very important, it will change anyway....

I had to take something heavy to a friend... Will I walk, will I take the bus???
I'm late, what do I do?
I still don't know, but I take it and I go!
15 or 20 second later...
that's too heavy!
I go back, take car keys, and go....
And I am "angry" it took me so much time thinking about it.
More feelings when I am in the car:
I'm going to be late but "this is the last time" :rolleyes:
This is going to be a very nice evening and I feel happy.

3, 6 and 9 are part of the triangle...

well, yes they are, but I'm not sure if you have got it or not!

My habitual personality e6 response would be thinking, feeling, acting.

well, yes they are, but I'm not sure if you have got it or not!

My habitual personality e6 response would be thinking, feeling, acting.

And a 3 is feeling first.

Do you have a wing 5?

Do you disintegrate in 3? Then you surely did a good job for yourself!

EDIT FOR THOSE who do not know the enneagram:
1) This is very interesting to think about your favorite (or most efficient) order between thinking, feeling, acting.

2) Disintegration = when stress makes you feel bad, when you don't feel at your best.
Then you tend to express the dark side of your own type, and then of another type. (that's the meaning of arrows in the enneagram)

Do you disintegrate in 3? Then you surely did a good job for yourself!

Yes, you've got it. Pulling in 3 energy is what happens when I'm really stressed out, so learning to use 3 energy resourcefully is very important indeed for a 6.

Planning 7's and 9's

The essential difference is in motivation:
9's are spending so much energy staying unaware of anger and frustration that they divorce themselves from the gut feelings they need to feel to prioritise. So, they can't decide. The strategy of acting first and then discovering whether you wanted to do it or not could be useful!

7's will make a plan as a sort of psychological rehearsal, rather than with any commitment behind it to actually follow through. They get lots of juice out of just thinking about the plan, whereas they don't see how commitment will be useful to them. Commitment means entrapment to a 7. So, they want to do it all, but will go for where the most fun is, at the last minute (or often later).

e6's are very interested in human motivation, as it enables us to moderate our fear by spotting possible danger much sooner. Actually, since I've done a lot of personal development work and no longer act from compulsive habit out of my type, I'm much more likely to get into scrapes. I never developed the mechanisms others use (based on acute sensory awareness) to warn them of impending problems. So I have to use other strategies!

I was not sure you disintegrated into 3 or 9!
Both are possible...

I disintegrate into 6, and did it a lot when I was a child and a teenager, mainly at school. I tried my best to be loyal as a 6, as I was so shy. Teachers could never catch me chewing... as I never dared put a chewing gum in my mouth! And I cheated once: because all other children asked me to help them.

That was very easy for me to behave like a 6, as my father is one! And he still prepares something before he is sure it will happen... He would enquire about hotels before he knows for sure he is going somewhere...

I know 9's that are "instinct - feeling - thinking", and they are more emotional than me.

I never developed the mechanisms others use (based on acute sensory awareness) to warn them of impending problems. So I have to use other strategies!

You certainly developped them, before you did personal development work, or even during childhood.

But enneagram is very good to help find good strategies!
It also helps be humble and accept the necessity of strategies.

I was not sure you disintegrated into 3 or 9!
Both are possible...

Not sure about that, Frans.

e6's pull in e3 energy in stress, but e9 energy in security.

The unified model of the enneagram exists for some times.... And I find it relevant.
It says you can integrate and disintegrate in both directions.

I am a nine "instinct, thinking feeling", I grow to a 3.
but some are "instinct, feeling, thinking", and they grow to 6.

The concept of the favorite center has always existed, and then came the repressed center, by Kathleen Hurley et Theodorre Donson. In 'my best self', they talked about the repressed center. They first admitted that 3, 6 and 9 could have 2 different hierarchies of their centers.

Then the enneagram monthly talked about a unified model of the enneagram in 98, telling about all possibilities for all centres.

It says that you grow to integration by connecting to the centre you repress. I repress feeling, so I integrate in the feeling centre 3. You grow to be a 6 if you repress the thinking centre...

That is why I said that the best thing to do is to find out in what order you use your three centres.

(of course, the next step will be to find out in what direction -inner or outer- you use this favourite centre. Then as you know, some people will discover that they sometimes repress the centre they usually use first. That is how I was sure I was a nine. And that is how a friend of mine found she was a 3 in 10mns. She was sure she feels first, and she was very surprised to have no more feelings because of stress. With this test, another friend I thought was a 2 told me : "feelings are the most important for me". In what direction : "towards people". That's exactly how e2 are...)

Very interesting. I'll have to give it some more thought, as far as others are concerned... for me, by habitual pattern was to do it as the traditional arrows suggested in any case.
🙂

This explains why some nines are more emotional than me (which does not mean I do not have feelings! I control them more, then they control me more... 😀 )
The arrow direction are called the alpha types. I am a 9 α, and the other is the 9 µ

If your are a 6 α, then you grow to a 3. This means you are thinking, instinct, feeling.... But why not be a 6 thinking, feeling acting? ... why not a 6µ...

Hi Frans,

well, I've thought about it, but I don't agree with it.

As an e6, I have worked in business as an entrepreneur, which uses a fair bit of e3 energy, and enjoyed a lot of what I did. It even helped me to face the outside world in a more solid way, and as any e6 will tell you, moving to action is a way of defusing our fear and anxiety. So I can see where you are coming from. But in terms of where I need to be spiritually to develop, it wasn't helpful. And that is what the enneagram is about, for me.

Is there a book or site that covers this new stuff? I'd like to know a bit more about it even if, in the end, I find it unconvincing in the face of my own experience of self and others.

You grow to a 9 if you said you disintegrate into a 3, and I grow to a 3. (I know I used to stress as a 6 when I was a child.)

I can tell you I know a 9 who grows to be a 6! He has the feeling center in 2nd, and thinking center last. So he is more emotional than me, and I am better at planning.

People who do not fit well into their type just drop the enneagram.... that is why you only know people who match the arrow directions!

articles are here :

Unified Model of the enneagram – Chabreuil & Chabreuil Nov. ‘98
Unified Model of the enneagram, response to – Hurley & Dodson Jan. ‘99
Unified Model of the enneagram, response to Hurley & Donson) (Letters to the Editor) – Chabreuil & Chabreuil Feb. ‘99

But they are archives... Then as I said, you can find some information in 'my best self', by Kathleen Hurley et Theodorre Donson. They talked about the repressed center.

Now tell me why a 1 and a 2 should repress their thinking centre?
Why 4 and 5 should repress their instinctive centre?
Why 7 and 8 should repress their emotional centre?

You are a 6, so your favorite center is the thinking center.
You integrate into 9, who likes the instinctive center best.
You disintegrate into 3, who is the feeling type.

6 => 9 : means the instinctive center is useful for you, so it means it is the repressed center for you. The feeling center is second, and you use it to support the thinking center.
Then you know the characteristic of the triangle : stress makes us repress our favorite center (because we do not know if we should in this case use it inward or outward), and the support center becomes the first one.

3 <= 6 When you get stressed, your feeling center becomes first, and you can disintegrate into a 3, who is the emotional type of the triangle.

Hi everyone

I went to a workshop about 10 years ago - and was typed as a '4' - with a 5 wing. I had promptly forgotten about this - and don't think I've given it a moment's thought since that weekend. However I have just revisited it by looking over some of the websites you've listed. I still think I am a 4 (5 wing). Strange, because I feel a very different person to that which I was 10 years ago.

I have so much on my personal development plate at the moment - but I am oh so tempted to have a deeper look at this. Maybe later...

Thank you so much for this thread.

Ava x