Acupressure vs Shiatsu

sorry for not researching things properly before posting, I have found this on wikipedia regarding Shiatsu:

"Diagnosis and Therapy combined" is the ability of the practitioners to use their sensory organs (palms, fingers, and thumbs) to detect disharmonies in the energetic components of the body, (such as stiffness or slackness at or within its surface), and to perform empirically established routines to correct these problems. To acquire this skill takes considerable experience. The defining difference between shiatsu therapy and modern and [url]Kampo medicine[/url] (also known as [url]Traditional Chinese Medicine[/url] (TCM), such as <a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="acupuncture">acupuncture and <a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="moxibustion">moxibustion) is this "Diagnosis and Therapy combined".

however I am still intrigued by what my acupunturist said regarding extra meridians in shiatsu...

Hi Fadette

Like in most therapies, there is variation in techniques. This is the same in Shiatsu.

There are two basic schools of thought in shiatsu: physiological model and TCM model.

Many schools in the west follow the basic TCM approach with an extented meridian system developed by Shizuto Masunaga. So for example: the arm has 6 TCM meridians Large Intestine, Lung, Heart, Small Intestine, Pericardium, Triple Burner (Sanjiao). But in the Masunaga meridian system you have additional extentions of the leg meridians Spleen, Liver, Gallbladder, Bladder, Stomach, Kidney going to the arms.

The main difference between shiatsu and acupressure, is that in acupressure you focus on a point or series of points to correct energy flow. This is done also in shiatsu, but there is an emphasis in balancing the interaction of the energetic flow in the meridian system. Shiatsu uses stretches to balance meridians as well.

As for shiatsu being a treatment & diagnostic technique, I would agree with that. This is true for many other forms of bodywork.

As for your acupuncturists sarcastic comment about Masunaga's meridians, well I don't blame s/he as it is a complex system. Personally it doesn't interest me, I'm happy with the TCM meridians and Thai myofascia meridians. But at the end of the day it is all just "instruments" in the therapist "tool box". It's what we do with our "tools" that is more important and the results achieved.

Best Wishes

RP

thanks a lot Reikie Pixie!

I would be happy with "just" the TCM meridians system too, so I may look into chinese acupressure, which I believe is Tui Na (or is this a specific type of acupressure?) in the future.

I am reading some books on acupressure and the meridians system right now, fascinating.

However if shiatsu calls me in the future I wont rule it out.

Like you said, it s the practitioner's use of the techniques that matters. I also believe it is the empathy and love that the therapist displays that help patients heal.

Hi F

Definitely empathy for the client is very important.

Tui Na means "push and grasp" and is a fairly strong massage technique and very manipulative. But it also includes acupressure. There is also Qi Gong Tui Na which is more subtle energy work.

Best Wishes

RP

my goodness, there are so many different Oriental TCM types of "massage", aren't there?

I will have to enquire about the last one you mentioned.

thanks.

Hi Fadette,

IMO Masanaga has given the Shiatsu practitioner some great tools for their toolbox, the more I look at his work the more it makes sense in TCM.
I highly recommend his books if you can get a copy. One of the trademarks of Shiatsu is the treatment of the Hara(abdomen), this area has great therapeutic value and is usually neglected because of the sensitivity of the area but I love recieving it myself once you get used to it. It really gets things moving and is a great diagnostic tool.
Zen Shiatsu is Masanaga's popular book and the Natural way of Zen Shiatsu is a good alternative. I like Masanaga's technique of no force correction of vertebral subluxation correction.

Consult a professional therapist

Hi Fadette

You want to know about the difference between Acupuncture/shiatsu/acupressure

So my question is: how do they really differ? is it only the techniques used, shiatsu using things like streching etc?
or do the merideins actually differ?
and what about the actual science behind it, do they see the human body (organs, tastes etc) in a different way?

So lets get back to basics. Firstly seek an expert opinion from the different kinds of practitioners. Ask only for a clear statement of what they do and how it works - Even within one discipline there are are huge variations in the way THEY work, often nothing to do with basic theory of the therapy
As a professional Shiatsu therapist of 12 years experience IMO there is much in these threads that I could never agree with. I see acupressure as half way between shiatsu and acupuncture with a distinct lack of the advantages, and certainly does not carry the same weight in the UK

Treatment of Hara is not a trademark in my experience, Hara diagnosis - sensing the state of meridians - is however a fundamental of Zen shiatsu. I personally use connection through Hara to the 'organ' energy in preference to connection to some convenient point on a meridian (also allows supporting one meridian whilst working another, a powerful technique in obtaining energy release without pain). The hand on the Hara is the Mother hand, giving support whilst the other is active treating hand - well that's the theory though I strongly suspect the mother hand is responsible for most of the healing. I do treat through the Hara to achieve certain specific changes

The number of meridians - that we have access to twice as many is a distinct advantage, we can find blockages and release them where an acupuncturist (probably) never would. Whilst the number may put you off, don't let it, once you become familiar with them your hands will follow the energy automatically. Personally I use an extended system identified by Endo (Tao Shiatsu) - there are two of each in each limb - extremely useful if you have problems with client mobility or limited time. Additionally there are circular and spiral meridians just to add to the fun. So I have 5 or 6 times more meridian length to play with. More importantly I perform whole body energy scans which adds a whole new dimension. If someones energy is scattered through trauma or whatever, it is a waste of time even looking at what is happening in the meridains until I have got the energy back inside

Which brings me to the main point about shiatsu - we sense the energy through our hands and our energy fields. Problems can be located just by feel. If you rely on a TCM approach it is mostly head stuff - ask questions, observe the body, decide what is wrong and treat points according to the book. There is a good chance for missing what is reallyhappening and it prevents tracking energy changes and flow during the treatment. Someone who is seriously grieving can go through 3 completely different energy states DURING a treatment and a competent shiatsu practitioner can track it all, keep up with the client and be there giving what is needed in the moment
Another aspect of this is that Ki follows thought, as a therapist it is my intention that probably has the greatest effect through the interaction of our energy fields

It is also possible to sense the state of stored energy from previous events in the clients life. I have had much success in making making major changes to lives of some clients who were sexually abused in childhood, simply by changing the old energy - energy that influences life in the present

Stretching, whilst part of the training, IMO achieves little unless you apply Chi Kung principles and when you sense an energy change happening you hold the limb static so it can complete - something I have not come across in any shiatsu training - just give it a stretch, rotate it or shake it loose. A stretch should be done very slowly and if resistance is found it should be treated there and then

It seems you are in France, your legislation I believe limits who can practice shiatsu to qualified doctors. This may limit their ability to work solely on an energetic level either through attitude or available time

There is much more I could say about shiatsu, this merely scratches the surface
As I said at the start, get the facts from expert practitioners in the other fields and be wary of opinions. My experience won't be found on any wikipedia page, Shiatsu Society website or similar

Hope that helps and hasn't left you confused

thank you Shiatsuman! and that was your first post too!

and a long one. so many thanks for that.

I have asked question to my TCM acupuncturist (who also teaches in the main Paris TCM school), and also questioned the shiatsu therapist I used to go to, and I also asked questions to the director of a serious paris shiatsu college.
well, I havent had half a good answer or opinion as the one you gave me.

It actually strikes me (like in other areas in life) that each therapist is quite happy to stick to their area and not become curious of other "parallel" therapies, which I find unconceivable in the acupuncture-TCM-shiatsu area, since they have common "ancestry".

What you've said about feeling the energy, the touch, the Mother hand, the Ki following intention...struck a cord in me. I do feel when there is touch there is more healing. something to do with the life force we all share.

now about these meridiens 5 times more numerous than in TCM, o my, I'll get to remember them all when I am retired probably!

what kind of shiatsu did you train in? sorry if you mentioned it clearly but I am not sure. there are many schools of shiatsu. zen, yin (strangely enough), TCM shiatsu...I wouldnt know what to go for.

As for the legal side of things in France, yes it is deeply annoying. but on the other hand the shiatsu therapist I used to see was fully booked between the first of June and September! it just shows, there is a way. but then I think you can make if you have the right contacts, as he is the esteemed colleague of the director of (what seemd to me when I went to watch a couple of shiatsu schools classes) the best school of shiatsu in Paris.
Ive also noticed how therapists in France charge more than in the UK, probably because there is less competition and also they seem to enjoy the air of mystery and mysticism that surrounds their profession. well, only my opinion.

but Im moving back to the UK, so Im not bothered with this question anymore.

Ive ordered "The web that has no weaver" since it is a bible in most shiatsu circles...

Hi Fadette

Trained in both TCM acupuncture and shiatsu, might I say that they are both highly useful tools. The nice thing about shiatsu is that some basic training gives you a useful technique to practice on friends and family for relaxation and stress relief; a higher level of training is required to practice at a professional level that requires dedicated (and expensive) study. When I used to practice on friends, often they would reach a really deep state of relaxation (zzzz!) which can be really helpful.

TCM is different- there are certainly similarities in the foundations in terms of Qi, channels and so on, but the acupoints are accredited with specific functions, eg to expel pathogenic Damp, or descend rebellious Qi, and they are used in quite a vigourous manner which would not normally be described as relaxing! As mentioned in a previous post, TCM acupressure is more formulaic and less intuitive. My view on this is that many people that use acupressure have probably not had a full TCM training and so a shorthand version has developed to enable folk to do the business without having to understand the relationships and patterns of disharmony that are central to the TCM framework. Acupressure is used in China more as folk medicine by the poulation, and as part of a wider method that includes tui na, goon fa, ro fa etc by TCM doctors. Acupressure is often used at needle sites to get a stronger reaction, sometimes before needling or between sessions. Massage in TCM generally is used to resolve "stagnation" of Qi and Blood, and usually involves strong, deep stimulation which could hardly be described as soothing!

Personally, I would leave "The Web" for trainee acupuncturists, and get a book by Chris Jarmey instead, as it relates more directly to shiatsu. Come back to it later.

If you are encountering a projected hostility from one type of practitioner to another, this may suggest a lack of professionalism or maturity-its a big world and no-one has all the answers! This attitude is endemic in the martial arts world, and usually arises when an individual has trained exclusively in one main style, and therefore resorts to attacking as a roundabout way of defense. As an acupuncturist, I hope that I am humble enough to realise that there are many paths up the same mountain, and realise that what suits one person may not suit another, and to become fundamentalist about one or other form of treatment benefits no-one.

If Qi work resonates with you, its interesting to know that from a TCM viewpoint, everything human is an expression of Qi, thinking, speaking, moving, desires etc, and that a TCM trained practitioner uses observation of all of these as part of the diagnostic process. If you don't already practice tai chi or qi gong try to find a good teacher, as sensitivity to qi is useful in many ways, including the healing arts.

Warm regards
David

thanks a lot David. what a superb post.

I agree with the qi gong practice, in fact shiatsu schools in Paris teach qi gong for over an hour for each day of teaching.

your last paragraph about "everything human is an expression of Qi ..." resonates with me and it is that philosophy that I am seeking, a thorough and whole approach to seeing humans.
Can I ask, did you do the 3-4 years training in TCM acupuncture?
Ive had time to scour the web for the British Council of Acupuncture approved schools and found that they are immensely, incredibly expensive! they start at £4500 a year. Who can afford this? It is sad because here in France it costs (and in the 3-4 years of study you also study chinese herbal and manual/osteopathy treatments/prescriptions) about £1300 a year, but of course it is not recognized by the public health authorities so TCM graduates practice very discreetly, in "cabinets" like doctors but without any advertising.
So back to you, did you do the 3/4 years path?...do you practice now?
from what you wrote I could venture saying that shiatsu is more a relaxing and balancing technique and acupuncture/TCM a deeper or spot-on "treatment". but I am probably wrong saying that.

Too late for the Web book, Ive got it, as well as "wood becomes water: Chinese medicine in everyday life". I cant help reading many books at once, one idea stimulates another one in me. am also reading about Light healing and colours! just to confuse me 🙂

Hi,

You mentioned Tui Na - This is the style of massage that shiatsu developed from. Tui Na is Chinese, and Shiatsu Japanese. Tui na can be firm or gentle, depending on the practitioner and the patient's preferences. It incorporates acupressure and other techniques to stimulate the points, along with more 'massagey' techniques.

More info is available here:

The thing about 'more channels' comes from one influential shiatsu teacher called masanaga who extended the traditional TCM channels so that they are accessible in both the arm and leg (traditionally they would go to one or the other but not both)

Hope that helps a little!

thanks Elixir, that's something new Im learning: that masanaga extended the meridiens so that they re accesible in both limbs.
how strange that he "extended", let's hope they are indeed there!

as time goes, Im more & more attracted to chinese medicine (inc. acupuncture), but wether I'll train and shed a fortune and the amount of work/time required is another matter. so far, reading about it and chosing TCM as my medicine is good enough.