Souls

I'd love to hear more about the different beliefs regarding what happens to souls when the physical body dies. I have held my own beliefs on the subject for many years but have never investigated Shamanism and would be interested in learning more.

I'd love to hear more about the different beliefs regarding what happens to souls when the physical body dies. I have held my own beliefs on the subject for many years but have never investigated Shamanism and would be interested in learning more.

If you post the question in either Inter-faith or Shamanism I'd be very happy to get into a discussion, Kiga :). I'm a bit wary of filling Spiritualism with shamanic stuff, but in the right environment I'm difficult to shut up on the subject!;)

Crowan

My first reaction here was to think – if I knew what I didn’t understand, I’d understand it! In the past I've spent much effort answering what I thought individuals had asked about. Later I would find out it wasn't what they were after at all but they hadn't made their points clearly - hence now I ask first and answer second. May I say that there is much I don't understand and I know and can explain exactly what I don't understand but (using your idea) doing that still wouldn't mean I understand it.....

😉However, later you say, such wording sounds, to me, to be a human concept, what incarnates believe might happen.....
so I shall assume that’s what you meant. Okay. You understand that that’s what your ideas sound like to me, also? If you say so and if that's the case then I need to stress that what I've related aren't my ideas so much as my words conveying (perhaps poorly) what's been given as guidance and is found in Spiritualist philosophy. Where I've failed is down to me. I don’t see that that matters. Thanks but my failure matters to me... I’m not attempting a conversion and (again, I assume) neither are you. absolutely not I want to understand where particular students are coming from and anything I’ve written about shamanism is only to explain what I meant by “what happens when people die?” I appreciate that this is not the area of the HP forum for debating the differences. I’m just seeking information. From the little I've heard here about shamanism here appear to be some differences. We'd have to do a point-by-point comparison to properly evaluate those apparent differences, to test whether they truly are differences. As you say, a Spiritualism forum isn't the place for that.

I don’t ‘feel’ anything. I’m stating fact. I’m not saying why the choice comes up, only that it does. From that I'm deducing that you are in contact with individuals who are equally knowledgeable about both 'isms and have felt moved to choose one over the other? That surprises me. I haven't 'spoken' to anyone who's said they have faced such a choice. The reasons might well be different for each person. But generally, I would say that what is discovered through shamanic practice contradicts what is believed in spiritualism, and people find they can only believe one or the other. We Spiritualists don't have, or use, any practices - the concept of a practice really does sound odd to me. And knowledgeable individuals don't generally have a need for any belief. Remember, I’m not directing this. I’ve just observed it several times. It’s largely because of this fact that I wanted to understand what the conflict is. I accept what you're saying - in return I'd ask you if the individuals you know are Spiritualists or spiritualists. If the difference isn't clear to you then it may not be clear to your contacts either. It's a situation I experience constantly - one of misunderstanding what Spiritualism is.

I think I have a clearer idea now - although if anyone else would like to chip in, that would be great. I don't think this area of the forum is quite the right place to take the discussion deeper - maybe in "Inter-faith", if anyone were interested? I hope I've given you some indication of the very obvious differences in the areas of 'practice' and of belief? Those two are easy to define. I'd love to hear what my fellow Modern Spiritualists think about the matters we've debated in these postings.

As a final observation I'll go out on a limb by saying I expect there will be few, if any, Spiritualists answering and that it's more likely that we'll hear from individuals interested in spirituality rather than Spiritualism.

mac

Thanks for replying to my post, Crowan - I've found that often individual posts get "lost" when some discussions are going on! I will put my questions in the appropriate thread. 🙂

Thanks for your reply, Mac.

You understand that that’s what your ideas sound like to me, also? If you say so and if that's the case then I need to stress that what I've related aren't my ideas so much as my words conveying (perhaps poorly) what's been given as guidance and is found in Spiritualist philosophy. Where I've failed is down to me.

Fair enough. Then I will say instead - what is found in Spiritualist philosophy sounds, to me, as if it’s a human concept. I don’t think you’ve failed, I think that it is simply that I disagree with Spiritualist philosophy – or, at least, that bit of it. And I still don’t see that it matters if two people believe different things.

I don’t ‘feel’ anything. I’m stating fact. I’m not saying why the choice comes up, only that it does. From that I'm deducing that you are in contact with individuals who are equally knowledgeable about both 'isms and have felt moved to choose one over the other? That surprises me. I haven't 'spoken' to anyone who's said they have faced such a choice.

Have you talked to many people who have moved from Shamanism to Spiritualism? People are uncomfortable when two different paths contradict each other. They choose the one that they can cope with best.

The reasons might well be different for each person. But generally, I would say that what is discovered through shamanic practice contradicts what is believed in spiritualism, and people find they can only believe one or the other. We Spiritualists don't have, or use, any practices - the concept of a practice really does sound odd to me. And knowledgeable individuals don't generally have a need for any belief.

Okay – wrong words, maybe. But people talk about being ‘practicing Christians’ when they mean believing what is taught and attending church. That’s all I meant. Shamanism, on the other hand, does have practices. Your distinction between ‘belief’ and ‘knowledge’ applies to shamanism as well – I know these things. But, when discussing like this, I tend to use ‘believe’ because it’s less confrontational than saying, “I know this is so” (and, by implication, that others are wrong).

Remember, I’m not directing this. I’ve just observed it several times. It’s largely because of this fact that I wanted to understand what the conflict is. I accept what you're saying - in return I'd ask you if the individuals you know are Spiritualists or spiritualists. If the difference isn't clear to you then it may not be clear to your contacts either. It's a situation I experience constantly - one of misunderstanding what Spiritualism is.

Good. New food for thought. The people I mean attend Spiritualist churches and have often had training as mediums or (more commonly) healers. They have investigated shamanism either because they’ve come across it and been interested in what they’ve heard, or their spirit guides have directed them towards it.
So, what is the difference?

Thanks for your reply, Mac. always my pleasure....

Fair enough. Then I will say instead - what is found in Spiritualist philosophy sounds, to me, as if it’s a human concept. I'd need to understand why you feel that although I'm not doubting your word.... I don’t think you’ve failed, I think that it is simply that I disagree with Spiritualist philosophy – or, at least, that bit of it. I've forgotten which bit you're meaning.... And I still don’t see that it matters if two people believe different things. The issue of belief is a fundamental one - I don't believe anything to do with the teachings of Spiritualism. I do believe 'stuff' or have opinions and beliefs about other matters.

Have you talked to many people who have moved from Shamanism to Spiritualism? No I have not. People are uncomfortable when two different paths contradict each other. I can understand that. They choose the one that they can cope with best. That's also understandable and I'm intrigued which paths contradict.

Okay – wrong words, maybe. Words are important.... But people talk about being ‘practicing Christians’ when they mean believing what is taught and attending church. I accept your meaning but it's not something I've ever heard of in Spiritualism.... I'm a Spiritualist - not a practising Spiritualist - and I rarely visit a church. So how does that square with 'practising Christians' et al. Isn't the status of 'practising' a significant weakness of religions? 'Practising' adherents vs those who aren't? You won't find that in the Spiritualism I know. That’s all I meant. Shamanism, on the other hand, does have practices. I accept that you know about them and you'll presumably know that Spiritualism doesn't have any practices.... Your distinction between ‘belief’ and ‘knowledge’ applies to shamanism as well – I know these things. But, when discussing like this, I tend to use ‘believe’ because it’s less confrontational than saying, “I know this is so” (and, by implication, that others are wrong). I don't see a simple statement as being confrontational but I don't say "I know etc" . You can state what you know about Shamanism. I routinely state what I understand from Spiritualist teachings and philosophy. I NEVER, EVER say "I believe" about such issues. What I don't know, what I don't understand, gets described as such. (I don't, incidentally reject what I don't understand - I may reject what I do.)

Good. New food for thought. The people I mean attend Spiritualist churches and have often had training as mediums or (more commonly) healers. Then your experience of them is in contrast to my total ignorance and you can speak about their situations with authority.... They have investigated shamanism either because they’ve come across it and been interested in what they’ve heard, or their spirit guides have directed them towards it. I can accept your first reason, I'd need more information about the second one.
So, what is the difference? Plainly, by definition, the individuals are not Spiritualists if they do not subscribe to Spiritualism, to Spiritualist philosophy. Simply because they attend, or have attended, churches or had training does not, would not, could not make them Spiritualists, mediums or healers....

More food for thought?

Hi,

I don’t know a great deal about Spiritualism (as you’ve probably gathered) but, by Spiritualist philosophy, do you mean the Seven Principles? If not, could you direct me to where I can read about what you do mean? (I don’t want to answer your question about the conflicts between shamanism and Spiritualism before I’m sure we’re talking about the same thing.)
As for more information about people being told to investigate shamanism by their spirit guides – what do you want to know?

Hi,

I don’t know a great deal about Spiritualism (as you’ve probably gathered) but, by Spiritualist philosophy, do you mean the Seven Principles?No - the seven Principles, quote: " ... are not intended to be binding rules or the basis of a dogma but to provide each individual, particularly those who are new to Spiritualism, a foundation for developing a personal philosophy." I'm not a historian and the background to this matter is easy enough to research online for yourself if that's important to you. If not, could you direct me to where I can read about what you do mean? Try the SNU [url]SNU Spiritualism Pages[/url] for more information, keeping in mind that one does not have to have affiliation to the SNU to be a Spiritualist...... (I don’t want to answer your question about the conflicts between shamanism and Spiritualism before I’m sure we’re talking about the same thing.) Well I'm talking about Spiritualism - you're the only one who's mentioned the conflicts....
As for more information about people being told to investigate shamanism by their spirit guides – what do you want to know? I'd like to know what's mean by 'spirit guides' and what, and why, these individuals have suggested change. This may seem straightforward but I've discussed 'guides' on numerous occasions, in many forums, with lots of individuals. So-called guides are not a homogeneous bunch. Who, for instance, assigns the status of 'guide' to these discarnates? What is their status, the background to their understanding - essentially what are their credentials?

Put the boot on the others foot - do Shamanic 'guides' ever counsel its adherents to turn to Spiritualism? If so, why and under what circumstances.

That would widen the discussion somewhat.

Dear Mac,

I don't feel this is getting anywhere. I keep asking about Spiritualism and you keep telling me why my questions are worded incorrectly.

Just two things -

Spirit Guides - this is what the people concerned call them. Shamanic people don't have guides, spirit or otherwise. We have shamanic Teachers - and I'm pretty certain that these are not different names for the same thing.

conflict - I'm referring to the conflict felt by people trying to make a choice between the two.

Put the boot on the others foot - do Shamanic 'guides' ever counsel its adherents to turn to Spiritualism? If so, why and under what circumstances.

No. I've never come across this.

I'm really sorry that others have not joined in. That would have widened the discussion.

Dear Mac, Dear Crowan

I don't feel this is getting anywhere. I don't see why you think that.... I keep asking about Spiritualism and you keep telling me why my questions are worded incorrectly.You asked me questions and I have explained to the best of my ability. Never have I told you that your questions are worded incorrectly - it's very unfair to say that without evidence. I sent a link for additional information, the SNU's website which puts things far better than I can. Have you used it?

Just two things -

Spirit Guides - this is what the people concerned call them. Shamanic people don't have guides, spirit or otherwise. We have shamanic Teachers - and I'm pretty certain that these are not different names for the same thing. Have I tried to tell you anything about Shamanism? You said 'spirit guides' and I picked up by asking what your people meant by that. It's important - that's why I asked the question. Plainly (from what you're telling me) there's nothing equivalent in Shamanism which kinda begs the question about why 'spirit guides' would want to redirect individuals into Shamanism. Don't you think?

conflict - I'm referring to the conflict felt by people trying to make a choice between the two. OK but I have no experience about this - you could help me by explaining why there's a conflict - you said you don't want to until you're sure about what we're discussing. I've tried my best to explain my side.

No. I've never come across this. Does that tell you anything? It does me and it's related to the issue of spirit guides above.

I'm really sorry that others have not joined in. That would have widened the discussion. potentially....

I'm a regular contributor about Spiritualism and I see myself as moderately knowledgeable. This forum attracts few contributors. My experience here and elsewhere is that there are few members knowledgeable about Modern Spiritualism or maybe few prepared to write a contribution.

I get the impression you're looking for certain answers but I will only give you answers which are correct. I don't have that certain experience you have told me about and you could explain it to me to help my understanding which in turn could help me to help you. A two way process would keep things moving.

Are we now done with this, Crowan?

Hi
I've called this souls, but am not sure if that's the right description.

The point is, I was told years ago that we are not a single entity and that there may be other identical copies of each of us in different parts of the world. I was told that we have probably up to 6 copies or souls.

Has any other Spiritualist heard or believe this. Also once we pass over is it possible that we can resume a relationship with somebody, if that relationship was disrupted whilst on earth.

I hope somebody can throw some light on this.

Regards

Do you mean copies of identical soles or physical bodies?
I did read once that we are supposed to be duplicated (identical bodies and souls ) on other universes in the galaxy.
Whether is correct,I have no idea.
I hope you are right because my late huuby could be still alive on one of those universes.
Wonderful thought.

Do you mean copies of identical soles or physical bodies?
I did read once that we are supposed to be duplicated (identical bodies and souls ) on other universes in the galaxy.
Whether is correct,I have no idea.
I hope you are right because my late huuby could be still alive on one of those universes.
Wonderful thought.

"I did read once that we are supposed to be duplicated (identical bodies and souls ) on other universes in the galaxy." That comes from the multiverse hypothesis. It's a cosmological theory that's untested and likely untestable (see Scientific American, August 2011)

My take is to try just to get a handle on our next port of call without the complication of trying to figure where/how we'd exist in a multiverse situation - along with our doubles.

I'm comfortable knowing what comes next. After that we'll just see, eh? 😉

Spirit Guides - this is what the people concerned call them. Shamanic people don't have guides, spirit or otherwise. We have shamanic Teachers - and I'm pretty certain that these are not different names for the same thing. Have I tried to tell you anything about Shamanism? You said 'spirit guides' and I picked up by asking what your people meant by that. It's important - that's why I asked the question. Plainly (from what you're telling me) there's nothing equivalent in Shamanism which kinda begs the question about why 'spirit guides' would want to redirect individuals into Shamanism. Don't you think?

When people start out in shamanism they learn specific techniques, mainly the Trance Journey, in order to communicate with spirits. (Everything has a spirit.) The first spirit they meet is usually their own Power Animal. This is sometimes described as the part of their soul that does not incarnate and is, therefore, their main connection with spiritual things.
The next spirit is often a Teacher. People outside shamanism (for example, clients who come for healing but who do not, themselves, practice shamanism) often speak to me of my ‘Guide’, but it is not a word that I’d use myself. Very simply, a Teacher teaches. And we might have different Teachers for different aspects of learning. For example, I have a main Teacher – who concentrates on my spiritual development. I have a Healing Teacher, who helps me heal others. I have Teachers who concentrate on dealing with my ancestors, on my teaching others or on interacting and negotiating with land spirits.
From what I gather from others (both Spiritualists and not) any of these may or may not be the same as a ‘Guide’. Like ‘angel’, ‘guide’ is a word that many use very casually. You must surely appreciate that people use words often without really knowing what they mean themselves.
Some Guides seem to be guides for healing and it has generally been these who have directed people towards shamanism, so that they can learn shamanic healing. This suggests that the classic techniques of shamanic healing are able to go further or deeper than spiritual healing, whereas the opposite is not so. This could be that anything that comes from spirit helpers could be classed as shamanic healing, including spiritual healing. Shamanic healing techniques however need to be taught in this world. I don’t know this. I am surmising. Yes, many things ‘beg the question’, but I am not an expert on why other people’s spirit helpers tell them the things that they do.

When people start out in shamanism they learn specific techniques, mainly the Trance Journey, in order to communicate with spirits. (Everything has a spirit.) The first spirit they meet is usually their own Power Animal. This is sometimes described as the part of their soul that does not incarnate and is, therefore, their main connection with spiritual things.
The next spirit is often a Teacher. People outside shamanism (for example, clients who come for healing but who do not, themselves, practice shamanism) often speak to me of my ‘Guide’, but it is not a word that I’d use myself. Very simply, a Teacher teaches. And we might have different Teachers for different aspects of learning. For example, I have a main Teacher – who concentrates on my spiritual development. I have a Healing Teacher, who helps me heal others. I have Teachers who concentrate on dealing with my ancestors, on my teaching others or on interacting and negotiating with land spirits.
From what I gather from others (both Spiritualists and not) any of these may or may not be the same as a ‘Guide’. Like ‘angel’, ‘guide’ is a word that many use very casually. You must surely appreciate that people use words often without really knowing what they mean themselves.
Some Guides seem to be guides for healing and it has generally been these who have directed people towards shamanism, so that they can learn shamanic healing. This suggests that the classic techniques of shamanic healing are able to go further or deeper than spiritual healing, whereas the opposite is not so. This could be that anything that comes from spirit helpers could be classed as shamanic healing, including spiritual healing. Shamanic healing techniques however need to be taught in this world. I don’t know this. I am surmising. Yes, many things ‘beg the question’, but I am not an expert on why other people’s spirit helpers tell them the things that they do.

Thanks for this very illuminating information. Very clear differences have emerged. You say you don't know why other people's spirit helpers tell them the things they do and I'd need to closely question those individuals to understand.

But today you've headed into the field of healing whereas earlier we were trying to compare Spiritualism and Shamanism. In your piece you've mentioned that in Shamanism, specific agents have very specific functions concerning individuals they support - let's avoid 'guide' - where in Spiritualism such agents, with such personal, individual support are not routine.

You make some suggestions about Shamanic healing going further or deeper. Healing isn't my speciality - you'd do better to discuss this with one of our Spiritualist healers. Such healers do not claim that they themselves do the healing. Healing energy is channelled through them rather than coming from them.

I can't find anything more to add. As I just mentioned, healing is better discussed with an experienced healer. There are significant differences of approach between the 'isms.

"I did read once that we are supposed to be duplicated (identical bodies and souls ) on other universes in the galaxy." That comes from the multiverse hypothesis. It's a cosmological theory that's untested and likely untestable (see Scientific American, August 2011)

My take is to try just to get a handle on our next port of call without the complication of trying to figure where/how we'd exist in a multiverse situation - along with our doubles.

I'm comfortable knowing what comes next. After that we'll just see, eh? 😉

You ever watch the television program called 'Fringe'.
Rather interesting.
It's fiction but how do we know what may be discovered in the future?
About parallel universes.
😉

Crowan - I was impressed this evening to say that there is more I could say but only if you wish to further compare the two 'isms.

You've responded to only a few of my points so I'm left wondering if the remainder were of no interest/relevance? If they aren't then I'll drop out of the picture...

Let me know?

You ever watch the television program called 'Fringe'.
Rather interesting.
It's fiction but how do we know what may be discovered in the future?
About parallel universes.
😉

I haven't seen it auntie J. I get only the Freeview channels - presumably it's on the pay channels? Parallel Universes is an issue related to the multiverse picture. Wholly unproven. Science fiction sometimes remains that - fiction.

Such things intrigue some folk but there again so does 'Most Haunted' - or 'Ghost Whisperer'! :D;)

Hi,
Sorry, Mac. I’ve had a hectic day.

You've responded to only a few of my points so I'm left wondering if the remainder were of no interest/relevance?

It seemed to me that the Guides/Teachers comparison was the main point of interest. If you'd like to discuss any other parts, I'm happy to do so.

In the meantime,

I did look at the SNU website. It says:
Spiritualism helps to provide a personal philosophy for every Spiritualist, each continuously progressing and growing in their understanding and interpretation resulting in the consideration of many diverse views. However, in essence the underpinning ideas come from the same source of universal understanding, and within the SNU it is based on the 7 Principles of Spiritualism.
I do take on board what you said about the seven principles not being binding. However, I assume that most Spiritualists will accept most of the Principles?
Another bit that interested me was:
One difference between Spiritualism and other religions is the acceptance of the ability, through mediumship, to offer evidence of spirit communication to a recipient and in doing so demonstrate that people survive physical death.
I can see some parallels here with shamanism. We use the trance journey rather than mediumship and our view of ‘spirits’ seems to be much wider, but basically I think we could agree here.
After a quick look at the Principles:
1.The Fatherhood of God.
2.The Brotherhood of Man.
3.The Communion of Spirits and the Ministry of Angels.
4.The Continuous Existence of the Human Soul.
5.Personal Responsibility.
6.Compensation and Retribution hereafter for all the Good and Evil deeds done on earth.
7.Eternal Progress open to every Human Soul.

I would say that I agree with 2 (although I wouldn’t say ‘Brotherhood’), half of 3 (spirits, not angels), 4, 5 and 7.

Scope for further discussion there?

Hi,
Sorry, Mac. I’ve had a hectic day. I'm sorry to hear that.

It seemed to me that the Guides/Teachers comparison was the main point of interest. If you'd like to discuss any other parts, I'm happy to do so.

In the meantime,

I did look at the SNU website. It says:
Spiritualism helps to provide a personal philosophy for every Spiritualist, each continuously progressing and growing in their understanding and interpretation resulting in the consideration of many diverse views. However, in essence the underpinning ideas come from the same source of universal understanding, and within the SNU it is based on the 7 Principles of Spiritualism.
I do take on board what you said about the seven principles not being binding. However, I assume that most Spiritualists will accept most of the Principles? I try not to make assumptions. You'll be right about some, wrong about others. Acceptance or rejection does not make, or bar, an individual being a Spiritualist. The historical reasons leading to the adoption of the principles is important.
Another bit that interested me was:
One difference between Spiritualism and other religions is the acceptance of the ability, through mediumship, to offer evidence of spirit communication to a recipient and in doing so demonstrate that people survive physical death.
I can see some parallels here with shamanism. We use the trance journey rather than mediumship and our view of ‘spirits’ seems to be much wider, but basically I think we could agree here. good
After a quick look at the Principles:
1.The Fatherhood of God.
2.The Brotherhood of Man.
3.The Communion of Spirits and the Ministry of Angels.
4.The Continuous Existence of the Human Soul.
5.Personal Responsibility.
6.Compensation and Retribution hereafter for all the Good and Evil deeds done on earth.
7.Eternal Progress open to every Human Soul.

I would say that I agree with 2 (although I wouldn’t say ‘Brotherhood’), half of 3 (spirits, not angels), 4, 5 and 7. I'll refer you to what I wrote above.... They're not universally liked but needs must when the devil drives....I don't find 'em particularly helpful.

Scope for further discussion there? They're not my speciality and they could be an unhelpful diversion. I'd be more interested to pick up on other issues but but it's your call.

Hi,
Sorry, Mac. I’ve had a hectic day. I'm sorry to hear that.

It's okay - hectic can be fun, too.

However, I assume that most Spiritualists will accept most of the Principles?

I try not to make assumptions. You'll be right about some, wrong about others. Acceptance or rejection does not make, or bar, an individual being a Spiritualist. The historical reasons leading to the adoption of the principles is important.

So what does make someone a Spiritualist?

Scope for further discussion there?

They're not my speciality and they could be an unhelpful diversion. I'd be more interested to pick up on other issues but but it's your call.

That's fine. What issues would you be interested in picking up on?

So what does make someone a Spiritualist?

Don't worry about this one. I've been exploring and have found your explanation from two years ago.

What issues would you be interested in picking up on?

Not so much me wanting to pick up as wondering if I'd said much that's relevant. :confused:

Take postings #36 and #40. I hoped for reaction/feedback on a number of points. The issue of healing too, a recent one. I can't tell if you intend to later drop back to older points (as with SNU and principles recently) or if they're not relevant.

Perhaps we've covered all the ground you wanted to investigate?

Take postings #36 and #40. I hoped for reaction/feedback on a number of points. The issue of healing too, a recent one.

Having looked again at these two postings, would I be right in suggesting that it is the conflict that people feel between shamanism and Spiritualism that you are referring to?
If so: When practising shamanism and learning about what happens after death, people discover an area between here and the Land of the Dead which is called variously the Fog, the Grey Place, the Unshaped Place. In this area, many souls get stuck. Some are the souls/spirits of people who are dead. Many are the soul parts of people still alive. The shaman/shamanic practitioner takes them to the Land of the Dead.
Once in the Land of the Dead, the souls of the beings there do not, except under very specific and rare circumstances, communicate with the living. The souls who do communicate in this way are still stuck and in no position to offer us help or support. In fact they need help themselves.
There is no conflict if a person accepts this completely, of course. Nor if they reject it completely.

Is there more to say about healing? I'm not sure.

There was this bit, also - to do with people being told by guides/teachers to move from one to the other: No. I've never come across this. Does that tell you anything? It does me and it's related to the issue of spirit guides above.

What does it tell you?

Some are the souls/spirits of people who are dead. Many are the soul parts of people still alive. The shaman/shamanic practitioner takes them to the Land of the Dead.

Does that mean, then that those soul parts of people still alive can't be retrieved from the Land of the Dead? And how does that affect the living person, even if the soul parts can be retrieved but they are not?

Having looked again at these two postings, would I be right in suggesting that it is the conflict that people feel between shamanism and Spiritualism that you are referring to?
If so: When practising shamanism and learning about what happens after death, people discover an area between here and the Land of the Dead which is called variously the Fog, the Grey Place, the Unshaped Place. In this area, many souls get stuck. Some are the souls/spirits of people who are dead. Many are the soul parts of people still alive. The shaman/shamanic practitioner takes them to the Land of the Dead.
Once in the Land of the Dead, the souls of the beings there do not, except under very specific and rare circumstances, communicate with the living. The souls who do communicate in this way are still stuck and in no position to offer us help or support. In fact they need help themselves.
There is no conflict if a person accepts this completely, of course. Nor if they reject it completely.

Is there more to say about healing? I'm not sure.

There was this bit, also - to do with people being told by guides/teachers to move from one to the other: No. I've never come across this. Does that tell you anything? It does me and it's related to the issue of spirit guides above.

What does it tell you?

I've written on several issues which I thought you'd find at least challenging. Without feedback I can't tell if the various points I've made are relevant or well enough explained.

From what I've learned from you I'm clear in my own mind that there are major differences between the two 'isms and pretty clear what some of 'em are. Comparing the two 'isms in depth would need time and effort.

I hope I've given you a few pointers but I'm going to bow out now and leave others to pick up at this point. good luck

Does that mean, then that those soul parts of people still alive can't be retrieved from the Land of the Dead? And how does that affect the living person, even if the soul parts can be retrieved but they are not?

May I make the point that the discussion of Shamanism alone, ie without reference or comparison to Spiritualism, should happen in the Shamanism forum?

Oh, sorry I spoke, I'm sure! Extremely rude of me to interrupt your very important debate....:confused:

Oh, sorry I spoke, I'm sure! Extremely rude of me to interrupt your very important debate....:confused:

There is no debate, you're not interrupting anything but you're asking about an issue relating to Shamanism which is a topic for the Shamanism forum.....

Does that mean, then that those soul parts of people still alive can't be retrieved from the Land of the Dead? And how does that affect the living person, even if the soul parts can be retrieved but they are not?

Kiga - come over to 'Shamanism' and I'll write something about it there.
(P.S. I think you avatar picture is lovely.)

And Mac - I think you're right that the discussion has run it's course. Thanks.