The Upanishads

"

there have been several translations in English, with varying degrees of authenticity.

Hello Prashna,
I was looking at a translation of some of the Upanishads in a bookshop the other day. As I didn't know whether it was one of the better ones I didn't get it though.
Is there a good English translation that you could recommend?

Upanishads - Good translations in English

Hello Prashna,
I was looking at a translation of some of the Upanishads in a bookshop the other day. As I didn't know whether it was one of the better ones I didn't get it though.
Is there a good English translation that you could recommend?

There are many, Barafundle.

But for non-Hindus, by far the finest, IMO, is one by Juan Mascaro (of Spanish origin, unless I am mistaken). Here it is:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upanishads-Classics-Juan-Mascaro/dp/0140441638/ref=sr_1_1/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189434673&sr=8-1 "> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upanishads-Classics-Juan-Mascaro/dp/0140441638/ref=sr_1_1/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189434673&sr=8-1

The introduction ALONE is worth the price!

One by a Hindu exponent and W. B. Yeats:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upanishads-Principal-Faber-Covered-Editions/dp/0571093639/ref=sr_1_1/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189434776&sr=1-1 "> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upanishads-Principal-Faber-Covered-Editions/dp/0571093639/ref=sr_1_1/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189434776&sr=1-1

One by the greatest master of them all (NOT recommended, for beginners) Shree Shankaracharya. See, for example:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://sankaracharya.org/mundaka_upanishad.php "> http://sankaracharya.org/mundaka_upanishad.php

But this is an advanced text! Will take you very deep inside Sanatana Dharma.

Regards.

Prashna

Hi there,
I know your question was directed to Prashna, but if I may add my two pence:
For a reliable, scholarly, yet readable translation, I would suggest Upanisads, translated by Patrick Olivelle (Oxford World Classics, Oxford University Press). This has a useful introduction, and a good selection with some end-notes. Prof. Olivelle was chair of south asian studies at the University of Texas.
Otherwise, I have found The Upanishads, translated by Sri Aurobindo (Lotus Light Publications) to be OK. Unlike Olivelle, he has included the Sanskrit in devanagari which may, or may not, be of use to you. I would however, completely disregard Aurobindo's comments and preambles to the various upanisads. But that's my personal opinion.
Hope that helps somewhat.
Best,
Shankar.

Hi Shankar,

I don't have Sri Aurobindo's book anyway, but your comment is interesting. Why would you disregard the comments and preambles? Just wondering, as it piqued my interest.

V

Thanks very much Prashna and Shankar, for the recommendations. That's very helpful.

The Upanishads - English translations.

Thanks very much Prashna and Shankar, for the recommendations. That's very helpful.

Hi Barafundle,

You are most welcome.

I have Patrick Olivelle's translation at home and do consult it occasionally. As far as linguistic accuracy goes, it is scholarly indeed. It also cites sections and sloka numbers which is helpful in locating the source. However, I do have several reservations about it. For readers who can discount these, Olivelle does provide a scholarly account.

My reservations mainly centre around Olivelle's opinions stated in the intro, about the 'Aryan Migration theory' and about the dating of the Upanishads. I believe he is wrong.

The relevant page in Amazon shows 388 results. See:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_b/202-5598458-9607056?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Upanishads&Go.x=10&Go.y=7 "> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_b/202-5598458-9607056?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Upanishads&Go.x=10&Go.y=7

Given the large number of English translations available, I believe, it is relatively easy to pick a good one written by a Hindu Scholar, of whom there has been many. Juan Mascaro is a very notable exception, a fact which was noted by Rabindranath Thakur himself.

About Shree Aurobinda's translation, I cannot comment, since I have not read that one. But apart from the ones I have mentioned, I believe the fillowing are good also:

1. Amar Chitra Katha Vol 649 "Tales from the Upanishads" available from:
<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.amarchitrakatha.com/main_page/main.asp?cid=2 "> http://www.amarchitrakatha.com/main_page/main.asp?cid=2

2. Shankaracharya and Swami Gambhirananda
<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eight-Upanishads-Isha-Katha-Taittiriya/dp/8175050160/ref=sr_1_43/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189511266&sr=1-43 "> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eight-Upanishads-Isha-Katha-Taittiriya/dp/8175050160/ref=sr_1_43/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189511266&sr=1-43
and
<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eight-Upanishads-Aitareya-Mundaka-Mandukya/dp/8175050179/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&qid=1189511266&sr=1-43 "> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eight-Upanishads-Aitareya-Mundaka-Mandukya/dp/8175050179/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&qid=1189511266&sr=1-43

3. Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan
<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upanishads-Principal-Muirhead-Library-Philosophy/dp/004294046X/ref=sr_1_2/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189511519&sr=1-2 "> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Upanishads-Principal-Muirhead-Library-Philosophy/dp/004294046X/ref=sr_1_2/203-7135286-7721503?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189511519&sr=1-2

4. Illustrated Upanishads by Peter Russell

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.peterussell.com/Upi/UpiPages.php "> http://www.peterussell.com/Upi/UpiPages.php

Hope this helps.

Prashna

Hi Venetian,
It's just a matter of personal taste, I guess. Aurobindo favours a kind of mystical interpretation of the Upanisads, which is fine, but is rather unique. He also employs a rhetoric which tends towards hyperbole, which is a little strong for my tastes. Thus he writes in his introduction: 'The Vedas and Upanishads are not only the sufficient fountain-head of Indian philosophy and religion, but of all Indian art, poetry, and literature'. To me this suggests all Indian thought grew up in a vacuum, impermeable to external influences for several thousand years. I'm not convinced this was the case, but like I said, it's just my personal opinion.
Prashna: Perhaps we should start a thread on the Aryan migration theory? Or perhaps its better not to lift the lid on that particular can of worms!
Best,
Shankar

I see. Thanks, Shankar. Well, he wasn't a native Indian, right? French? So maybe had an idealised view.

Well, he wasn't a native Indian, right?

Are you talking of Sri Aurobindo, v? Of course he was a native Indian. He was born in Calcutta!

Love
Sunanda x

Hi Sunanda,

I realise now that I wrote that almost in order to get feedback. I always thought he was Indian, but 2-3 years ago I know I was surprised to find that some well-known figure such as he was French. So I've got it mixed up. Any idea who I'm thinking of? Was the Mother Indian? I know there's some well-known teacher who resided in India who was from France .... :confused:

Hi Sunanda,

I realise now that I wrote that almost in order to get feedback. I always thought he was Indian, but 2-3 years ago I know I was surprised to find that some well-known figure such as he was French. So I've got it mixed up. Any idea who I'm thinking of? Was the Mother Indian? I know there's some well-known teacher who resided in India who was from France .... :confused:

Yup, the Mother,Mirra Alfassa, was born in Paris, to Turkish and Egyptian parents.

Sri Aurobindo was educated in England, BTW. Pondicherry, where he lived and created his ashram, was under French control until relatively recently and still has a wonderfully French feel to it.

Love
Sunanda xxx

Shree Aurobinda

Yup, the Mother,Mirra Alfassa, was born in Paris, to Turkish and Egyptian parents.

Sri Aurobindo was educated in England, BTW. Pondicherry, where he lived and created his ashram, was under French control until relatively recently and still has a wonderfully French feel to it.

Love
Sunanda xxx

Hi all,

:offtopic:

I apologise for this off-topic comment, necessitated by the previous posts.

AFAIK, Shree Aurobinda's parents were both Bengali (Indian) Father Dr. K. D. Ghosh and Mother Shreemati Swarnalata Devi. See:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo "> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo

The Mother referred to by Sunanda was a "close spiritual collaborator, [url]Mirra Richard[/url] (b. Alfassa), " See:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo#The_Mother "> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo#The_Mother

Also see:

Excerpt:

He was joined by his co-worker and fellow Adept Mirra Alfassa, who later became known as [url]The Mother[/url].

More confirmation in <a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/swar/SAe.htm "> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/swar/SAe.htm

End of :offtopic:

To return this thread to on-topic, Some more on the Upanishads:

I omitted to include one important and late Upanishad in my list of major Upanishads:

Svetasvetara

This is especially significant as it relates to Shiva.

Shankaracharya wrote his bhasya on only eight and did not include this one.

Regards.

Prashna

Hi Prashna.

I would like to discuss the Upanishads a little further, as I,m attending a workshop soon......

This is from ISA Upanishad......

It's Antithesis of Knowing, which I thought was appropriate

Into blind darkness enter they
That worship ignorance;
Into darkness greater than that,as it were they
That delight in knowledge

Other, indeed, they say, than knowledge!
Other, they say, than non-knowledge!
-Thus we have heard from the wise
Who have explained it to us

Knowledge and non-knowledge-
He who this pair together knows,
With non-knowledge passing over death,
With knowledge wins the immortal.

PS; If the translation is naff.....it's because I bought it in a charity shop.

Oakapple xx

A slim volume of the main Upanishads was one of the first books on mysticism I owned. At an important time to me, as I was also just studying mindfulness, Gurdjieff, etc. Half an hour or more of reading this, and practising it as best I could, during lunch and out of the office, and I could hardly work when I got back. In fact I could hardly walk back!

Some quick thoughts, not interrelated, on the Upanishads:

In "The Spiritual Heritage of India" by Swami Prabhavananda, he tells the anecdote from an Upanishad that a disciple asks his Guru to tell him the nature of Brahman. The Guru remains silent. The chela asks again; the Guru is still silent. Asked a third time, the Guru speaks: "I teach you indeed, but you do not follow. His name is silence."

The Swami wonders if this is what lies behind the Buddha's non-teaching on Brahman: Buddha knew all the ancient teachings, so could it be that Buddha's silence on the existence of Brahman follows suit? That his aparent agnosticism was really an affirmation of this nature of Brahman? It rings true to me.

I also note that in the Upanishads, the Atman or Self is said to wear five or several sheaths. This is interesting as it corresponds just about exactly to the view of Theosophy and later modern neo-Theosophy - that the Self "wears" bodies, these being, in general Theosophy, the physical body, the etheric or pranic double, the emotions/mind or 'manas', the intellect, the 'ego' (sometimes called today the Christ Self), and the causal body. They are described in the Upanishads just about precisely as later Theosophists described them. (Today the Atman is also called The Individualised 'I AM' Presence.)

[... and I quite forget my third point. 🙂 ]

V

So silence is the key.....meditation and stillness. I must admit, That is the time I feel closest to the Spirit and divine power of my creator. When I'm grounded and still......I feel at one with Nature.....with the World and the Universe. Complete freedom of thought

I didn't realise just how closely each religion is inter-connected.....

V...although the volume of the Upanishades is very slim, there are volumes of info and food for thought within these few pages....and so many different concepts. Might take me a while to figure them out

Oakapple xx

Hi oakapple,

Got to rush off so this is a bit brief. 😮 I realy meant that the particular volume of Upanishads I had was slim. About a 150-page p/back in all. It only had the few Upanishads considered major.

I just IMHO don't take silence being the key as literal at all. I feel it's more figurative. In fact I find that sound-producing practices can very often prduce a much greater effect than silence. "Silence" here to me means that words can't describe Brahman anyway, or intellect, and that Brahman exists "outside" the universe of phenomena, even inner phenomena.

But chants, Western ceremonial traditions, bhajans, music, can be profound. Often people sit in silence and achieve nothing but a kind of ease. 😮 In neo-Theosophy from the 1930s, meditation is certainly used, but the main practice is the use of specialised and a new form of the use of sound called "dynamic decrees". Vedanta also tells us that the Cosmic AUM expresses also through audible sound. It's a much more effective way of producing outer change in the world - actually making outer things happen, IME. Sound is a creative force. 🙂

V

1. So silence is the key.....meditation and stillness.

2. That is the time I feel closest to the Spirit and divine power of my creator. When I'm grounded and still......I feel at one with Nature.....with the World and the Universe.

3. Complete freedom of thought

Oakapple xx

Hi Oakapple,

You got it in one.

Or scored a very rare 'Albatross' or 'Double Eagle' or even better, as Golfers might say! See:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://www.scottishgolfhistory.net/bogey_par.htm#Albatross "> http://www.scottishgolfhistory.net/bogey_par.htm#Albatross

1 and 2. Yes indeed. Silence is the key and stillness. Very stillness: you might experience that if you sit by the waterside in Wastwater just before a storm:

It is represented by the silence( I represented by ~ or ^) in the key unisyllable aum~, as I explained here:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" https://www.healthypages.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=38670 "> https://www.healthypages.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=38670

3. Near, very near! But not quite! Try:

Complete absence of thought!

Live long and prosper.

Prashna

Complete Absence of thought......If my mind was the lake ( in the picture )

My thoughts would be the clouds, within the lake.....drifting silently by....

that works for me....thank you prashna.

Oakapple xx

On silence and/or sound in one's own spiritual practice, your two posts immediately above led me to recall a past realisation, which is that people can hardly really use any sound-oriented spiritual practice well at all unless they've first fairly-well mastered their own inner silence and stillness, so things do begin with that, yes. Otherwise it's just intellect, the constant stream of inconsequntial thoughts, distraction, allowed in, etc.

But once inner silence is gained, there's a lot to be said for then emerging from that, if one knows what to do, and using sound whilst maintaining the inner 'contact'. So then the sound is very controlled and precise, and comes from the Self, not from the human personality. Technically it is said that we create change by combining the third eye chakra (in visualisation) and the heart chakra (in right or Godly emotion) with the throat chakra (which brings thought-forms "through" into manifestation much easier. Thus personal and world conditions can be worked on.

But while there are things on this in Vedanta for sure, it's a bit off-topic re the Upanishads .... 🙂

V

:offtopic:

I find, the chanting and meditation so totally different from each other....

The chanting and mantra's are emotionally charged ( as Prashna mentioned )
They can bring tears of joy quite easily to the for-front;....where as

Meditation brings stillness and calm,... sometimes the Aum, used within the meditation can produce the same effect.

The Kirtan that I attend always use, both chanting and meditation. It,s always a joyful and powerful experience......But so totally different to Absent Healing Group meditations or Heart Meditations.

I have to add, both practices of chant and meditation are complimentary to finding my ' Oneness ' and helps me to release the Soul and open the heart to ' Universal Energies ', we might otherwise miss.

Oakapple xx

:offtopic:

I find, the chanting and meditation so totally different from each other....

The chanting and mantra's are emotionally charged ( as Prashna mentioned )
They can bring tears of joy quite easily to the for-front;....where as

Meditation brings stillness and calm

Yes, In Indian or 'Hindu' practices this is true, though it would depend upon who is at work. A Master performer of the raga may not be putting what we normally call 'emotion' into it. It's a form of feeling, but through a Master of the art its a very lofty one. Bhajans are devotional so there's emotion there, though IMHO it's human emotion if even of a very good kind, in most cases.

I say all this as that relates to India or the East.

To get into what I really mean however would truly be not only off-topic of the Upanishads, but even off-topic for Hinduism. Since the 1930s, beginning in the West, there's been a whole new series of teachings on a very scientific use of sound. You don't put human emotion into it, but you strive to bring down the Divine Consciousness to work through you. The actual sound is like something few have ever heard, and you cn only know what it's effects are from doing, never from reading. These are "dynamic decrees" which are after much practice given at what the outside observer might find to be a frenetic staccato pace, so that the (English or translated) words are sometimes not even decipherable by the listener. However the 'giver' is in a state of peace and calm, and contact with the Self. A big subject.

It really would upset a thread on Hinduism and the Upanishads to go into this, and I know no-one else on HP uses these dynamic decrees anyway; but it's avowedly not just 'New Age' and relates back to a growing movement from the thirties. I only mention it as it's clearly IMHO a fulfillment of the teachings of Vedanta on the fact that sound - not silence - is the Creative force. In silence we go within, perhaps very deeply. But the idea is that sound, being a creative force, changes the world - which is now what's needed, as the world has been rather 'stuck' for as long as we really can see back.

In Vedanta and other traditions, all Creation begins with Vibration - the 'unstruck sound' of the Cosmic AUM, or the Word, Sufism's 'Hu', and the same back in ancient China, Egypt, etc, where the scientific application of ceremonial sound was used to effect societal change. The Cosmic Aum, as Vibration, "shook" the Creation into existence from homogenous prakriti, along with all the energies such as electricity, gravity, and light, and all atoms, quarks, what have you. Similarly, Sons and Daughters of God can be co-creators by releasing this particular use of sound - which I suppose none on HP have heard or done - thus changing outer and inner conditions rapidly in a way that silence cannot. Actually, a great practice is to begine with meditation to focus, then have a long session of dynamic decrees - most useful in large groups - and to end with meditation again. They are wonderfully complementary.

One link is:

Anyway, it has no direct relation to the Indian use of sound, but is pointed to in Vedanta indirectly. If there were more interest, from respect for the Upanishads topic we could create a new thread. 🙂

iisha Upanishad

Hi Prashna.

I would like to discuss the Upanishads a little further, as I,m attending a workshop soon......

This is from ISA Upanishad......

...

PS; If the translation is naff.....it's because I bought it in a charity shop.

Oakapple xx

Hi Oakapple,

I think it's high time to return to the topic of this thread.

The discussions on meditation and silence are interesting and useful. However meditation is not unique to Sanatana Dharma. Perhaps that particular discussion merits a separate thread under "spirituality" or "inter-faith".

Getting back to the Upanishads, the Isa or iisha is often read first. It is extremely short consisting of only 18 slokas.

The translation you cited is perhaps not the best! I would recommend this one from: <a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://sankaracharya.org/isa_upanishad.php "> http://sankaracharya.org/isa_upanishad.php

Its essence is perhaps in the slokas 4 to 7.

4 That non—dual Atman, though never stirring, is swifter than the mind. The senses cannot reach It, for It moves ever in front. Though standing still, It overtakes others who are running. Because of Atman, Vayu, the World Soul apportions the activities of all.

5 It moves and moves not; It is far and likewise near. It is inside all this and It is outside all this.

6 The wise man beholds all beings in the Self and the Self in all beings; for that reason he does not hate anyone.

7 To the seer, all things have verily become the Self: what delusion, what sorrow, can there be for him who beholds that oneness?

5 and 7 are my favourites. But read the whole carefully. Translations for 10 other Upanishads are available at that site.

The book no 2 that I cited on 11 Sept. gives very full explanations. iisha alone covers 29 pages. Most worthwhile!

Incidentally, what your citation called "knowledge" and "non-knowledge/ignorance" were actually called vidya and avidya in the original Sanskrit. A better but still inadequate translation would be "science" and "nescience".

Regards.

Prashna