Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

The Welsh assembly Government say that the initial post mortem tests indicate that Shambo may have had TB, but they cannot confirm this for several weeks.

They have refused to allow Skanda Vale an independant test.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

ORIGINAL: Barafundle

The Welsh assembly Government say that the initial post mortem tests indicate that Shambo may have had TB, but they cannot confirm this for several weeks.

They have refused to allow Skanda Vale an independant test.

They also refused an independent test on Shambo while he was alive.

Taking accountof the frequency of false results yielded by the skin test andthe finality of theproposed solution', surely a humane course of action would have been to seek an independent test!

Why no second opinion, either while shambo was alive or now that he has been killed?

Question: Did shambo ever have bovine TB?
Did even DEFRA ever believe he had bovine TB?

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

What is the reason why cattle with bovine TB aren't allowed to be treated, whilst other animals are? Could it be that the treatments for cattle are ineffective? I don't know.

It seems that poor Shambo did have TB, and it was much more extensive than at first thought. TB is a terrible disease for both humans and animals to have, and worse to die from. If Shambo had to be put to sleep by an overdose of morphine, better that he goes quietly to sleep than to have him die an awful death.

I hope the other animals affected by TB at the sanctuary can be treated.

Patsy.
P.S. Although TB spreads from one living creature to another, the original source might not have been from wildlife; TB lives in the earth, and those living close to it are at risk. This is why farm animals are regularly tested.

I spent the weekend in the company of Hindus and nothing but. So on the suggestion of someone else,I did raise the Shambo topic to see what their various points of view might be. I noted down four from that discussion. I'm simply reporting them for the sake of giving the various Hindu PoVs:

- To be honest, it's probably good for Skanda Vale: now they'll be on the map.

- The whole affair is bad for Hinduism in the UK: it's made Hinduism to appear not to be forward-looking.

- They can always get another one. Farmers from there lost livestock from Foot and Mouth, and don't see the diference.

- There was indeed scepticism about whether a similar reaction from any authorities would have taken place had it been a Muslim situation, given current events.

Hm. My second post in the new forum matrix. I hope I'm missing something. This reply box is incredibly small, so I can't see my own reply at a glance.

V

Why they wouldnt allow to have shambo treated was because they would open up a debate about all infected lifestock to be treated. Farmers look at lifestock as a business and not compassion. They are commodities and to treat the animals for TB would cost them and its cheaper to send them to be slaughtered and replace them.

I spent the weekend in the company of Hindus and nothing but. So on the suggestion of someone else,I did raise the Shambo topic to see what their various points of view might be. I noted down four from that discussion. I'm simply reporting them for the sake of giving the various Hindu PoVs:

- To be honest, it's probably good for Skanda Vale: now they'll be on the map.

- The whole affair is bad for Hinduism in the UK: it's made Hinduism to appear not to be forward-looking.

- They can always get another one. Farmers from there lost livestock from Foot and Mouth, and don't see the diference.

- There was indeed scepticism about whether a similar reaction from any authorities would have taken place had it been a Muslim situation, given current events.

Hm. My second post in the new forum matrix. I hope I'm missing something. This reply box is incredibly small, so I can't see my own reply at a glance.

V

Hi all,

I did not wish to post again on this topic. Shambo has been killed, needlessly and nothing that I or anyone else can say will bring him back to life.

As for changing people's perceptions about the sanctity of life, I see no chance of that. So I have given up.

V, I respect your views and have no doubt that what you say about that meeting with Hindus is true. But it's not complete.

In your account, I did not find a single Hindu who disagreed with the killing of Shambo.

People could be forgiven for thinking that I have deliberately stirred things up and Hindus generally have no problem with the killing of Shambo.

That simply is not true.

I too attended a meeting last Saturday where quite a few Hindus were present.

None of them agreed with the killing of Shambo.

Most of them said it would never have happened if the people affected were Muslims.

Just giving the other side of the story.

Prashna

Prashna, Thats exactly what I have said, if it had been muslims, it would have been an entirely different story.

Call me thick, but can someone explain to me why it would have been different if it were Muslims.

As far as I'm aware the Shambo issue was not about whether the keepers were Hindu, Muslim, Christian or whatever religion, but about the fact that the British Law says that cattle diagnosed with TB (whether it was correctly diagnosed or not is another issue) should be put down.

Why has this suddenly turned into an issue of it being against Hindu's?

Farmers look at lifestock as a business and not compassion. They are commodities and to treat the animals for TB would cost them and its cheaper to send them to be slaughtered and replace them.

What a horrible sweeping statement.

Firstly, it is NOT cheaper to have an animal slaughtered and replace them. An animal with TB or other diseases that the governement has decided animals must be slaughtered for cannot enter the food chain. The money that might have been made from the animal is lost and any compensation available never covers that loss and the cost of replacing the animal. That's if you look at this as purely a financial issue.

Secondly, many farmers invest a lot of time and effort in building their herds, they name them and care for them - they do not simply discard animals and go along to the next market and buy a new one, you're not talking about buying this year's must-have shoes here. Some farmers might look at livestock in this way, but thankfully they are in a minority. Most farmers have a huge compassion for their animals and are constantly fighting a battle to keep the balance between caring for their animals and needing to make a living. During foot and mouth, when farmers were weeping to see the mass extermination of herds that they had built up over many years, and having to watch the funeral pyres, it was from compassion. After all, they'd get compensation and be able to go to market and replace them, wouldn't they? Many farmers, when having to have an animal put to sleep, feel a huge compassion and sense of loss, but they are there to make a living so have to put it behind them and get on with things.

Many farmers would prefer to treat their animals for diseases than slaughter them, whether for TB or foot and mouth or many other diseases that treatments are available for, but the government insists instead on slaughtering these animals. Shambo is not unique in this regard.

I really do not understand why this thread has sunk to the level of condemning farmers as lacking compassion and only being interested in the money, and claiming that things would have been different if it were a Muslim issue. It is an issue of British law, pure and simple, and none of us is above the law whatever our religion, our livelihood (in the case of farmers) or our own personal codes of ethics.

Maybe rather than complaining that Hindus are being victimised, the Hindu community could work with farmers to try to get the law changed so that where a treatment is available it can be used to prevent the unnecessary slaughter of the animal. Just a thought.....

As for changing people's perceptions about the sanctity of life, I see no chance of that. So I have given up.

But misinformation is a completely separate thing.

V, I respect your views and have no doubt that what you say about that meeting with Hindus is true. But it's not complete.

In your account, I did not find a single Hindu who disagreed with the killing of Shambo.

Prashna,

If you really don't mind (!) that was not "misinformation" in my post. I wasn't even bothered to do so, but someone else suggested I ask Hindus I was with what they thought.

I noted, simply as a reporter, neutrally, every point made, which were four. The main repeated point was the one that it would tend to make Hindus look as if they are "strange" and not forward-looking, to use the exact words from the Hindus.

V

IMHO, Well said Amber Lady. 🙂

Prashna,
If you really don't mind (!) that was not "misinformation" in my post. ...
V

V,

Perhaps my choice of words was wrong. I thought I made it sufficiently clear that I did not doubt what you had written.

Evidently I had not. So I have removed the particular sentence that you took exception to.

Just to clarify, I certainly did not mean you had tried to misinform anyone. However, the range of opinion among Hindus is somewhat wider than what you reported. But I accept that you did exactly and honestly what you said, i.e. reported the range that you found. If by my poor choice of words, I have offended you, I apologise.

It's just that in a similar meeting I found several Hindus who disagreed with the killing of shambo.

I hope that clarifies.

Regards.

Prashna

Just wanted to also write in support of Amber Lady's post! It contained some good down-to-earth views on the issue.

Melissa

Hi Prashna,

No problem. It's no really big deal at all. I just wanted to stress that these were not even anything to do with "my views". It was pretty basic reporting! simply asked the basic question, and replies took about two minutes. Of course it's not the whole range of Hindu views: however it is interesting to see whatever range of Hindu views we can, and as I found, it was far from automatic for Hindus to support the Shambo case; rather its newsworthiness brought up various other issues.

Giles,

You asked about why would it be diferent for Muslims? And Hindus I also spoke to did feel that it might be. Isn't the reason obvious? In reality we'll never perhaps know if Muslims would be treated differently; but Hindus and the population in general in some cases feel that Muslims would get a softly-softly approach, as opposed to any other sector of society, as they've made a big song and dance, correctly or not, about being singled out and targeted for searches by the police, etc. In short, upset Muslims, make it into headlines, and it may lead to still more Muslim disenchantment and bombs. This is just a hypothesis, and there may never be an exactly parallel case.

V

Hi Prashna,

No problem. It's no really big deal at all. I just wanted to stress that these were not even anything to do with "my views". It was pretty basic reporting! simply asked the basic question, and replies took about two minutes. Of course it's not the whole range of Hindu views: however it is interesting to see whatever range of Hindu views we can, and as I found, it was far from automatic for Hindus to support the Shambo case; rather its newsworthiness brought up various other issues.

Giles,

You asked about why would it be diferent for Muslims? And Hindus I also spoke to did feel that it might be. Isn't the reason obvious? In reality we'll never perhaps know if Muslims would be treated differently; but Hindus and the population in general in some cases feel that Muslims would get a softly-softly approach, as opposed to any other sector of society, as they've made a big song and dance, correctly or not, about being singled out and targeted for searches by the police, etc. In short, upset Muslims, make it into headlines, and it may lead to still more Muslim disenchantment and bombs. This is just a hypothesis, and there may never be an exactly parallel case.

V

Thank you V,

for acknowledging my apology. I would not have liked to spend another hour on this Earth thinking that you and I had fallen out.

Thank you also for explaining why Hindus and a lot of other non-Muslims believe there would have been no question of killing an animal if it was a Muslim organisation that was involved.

And now I am going to shock you. Please do not take offence because that is NOT my intention. I am just trying to illustrate the pitfalls of surveys, even when carried out with the utmost of care as you must have done.

I hope I have made very clear where I stand on this issue. Yet, were you ask me that question in a face-to-face meeting now, my public answer to you would be very different, diplomatic and non-commital.

Directly as a result of my experience in this MB.

But for those without that, general caution and reserve in speaking to a non-Hindu.

It is possible that the responses you heard might not reflect the true feelings of the persons concerned, for this and some other reasons. Which are controversial, so best left unsaid.

Regards.

Prashna

Personally, I don't think Muslims would have been treated any differently. The courts were looking at the law of the situation not at the religion. Muslims may have kicked up more of a fuss (if that's possible! :rolleyes:) but any extreme activity because of it would purely be from fundamentalist factions and not representative of the majority of the muslim community.

It just suprises me that a thread about Shambo turned round into a "them and us" between Hindu's and Muslim's. A pointless turn around IMHO. :confused:

Hi Prashna,

The Hindus I spoke to are very open and honest, and I know them. They speak their true mind, and that is what they said. At least, I know it was their true thoughts!

Giles,

It occurs to me that if Muslims were treated differently - and this is just a hypothesis which to my knowledge is untested - it's worth noting that it's not "reactions to Hindus compared to reactions to Muslims" so to speak. Because Christians and Jews, Pagans, even atheists, or anyone, would be treated by law as Hindus were, I'd say. So it's more the perception that maybe (who knows?) Muslims would get a more cautious reaction than anyone else, given present problems. The point being, I suppose, that it wasn't anti-Hindu so far as I can see.

V

An open letter sent to Skanda Vale

The Hindu Conference of Canada, Canada's largest Hindu advocacy, would like to express our shock and dismay at the insensitive and unwarranted decision on the part of the Welsh government to slaughter the bull known as 'Shambo'.

As you know, this bull had great religious significance to the Hindu community worldwide. The callous decision to desecrate our faith in this manner, especially considering scanty and inconclusive nature of the medical evidence, demonstrates scorn and contempt towards Hindus.

It may be of interest that our members and supporters include professionals and senior elements within North American trade promotion councils and tourist bureaus, many of whom deal regularly with investment opportunities and leisure travel to the UK and Wales.

Our executives, members, and supporters will certainly take all relevant factors into consideration when evaluating future decisions on trade, investment, and tourism involving your country.

We now understand that the Welsh government is intending to enforce the slaughter of two further animals from the Temple herd at Skanda Vale. This is unacceptable.

The horrific scenes of pilgrims including ladies and children and Hindu priests being dragged away from an act of devotion celebrating the sanctity of life at the Hindu Temple at Skanda Vale, have incensed the Hindu Community here in Canada. These scenes were witnessed on world wide media and can only lead us to draw the conclusion that the government in Wales has no regard for the rights of the Hindu Community to freely practice their religion.

Good government is about learning from past mistakes. Tolerance, active engagement and respect for the diverse communities within our society are the recipe for harmonious living. In the interests of justice and good judgement, we ask you to reconsider your current stance and engage positively with the Temple and wider Hindu Community to find a solution which does not further desecrate the Hindu religion.

Ron Banerjee

Director, Public Relations

Hindu Conference of Canada

Mr. Lakhani has been referred to previously. Since he appointed himself spokesman for Hindus in Britain he has been made himself very unpopular and the Hindu council have distanced themselves from his remarks.

I understand the desire of the Hindu Conference of Canada to protest against the actions of the Welsh Assembly but I am sad that they would consider some kind of sanctions ie cutting back on tourism promotion etc. This kind of economic measure would hurt not the Welsh Assembly but the thousands of individuals who depend on, for example, tourism for a living, many of whom may well have been against Shambo's slaughter anyway.

With love
Sunanda xxx

I think I read somewhere recently that there are more Indian tourists in Britain than Japanese nowadays. A point I made in correspondence to all the Welsh Assembly members.

An open letter sent to Skanda Vale

Mr. Lakhani has been referred to previously. Since he appointed himself spokesman for Hindus in Britain he has been made himself very unpopular and the Hindu council have distanced themselves from his remarks.

Thank you, Barafundle,

for that post. Let's hope that the efforts of the HCC has some effect.

I have thanked Mr. Ron Banerjee by email. I hope others do likewise.

Prashna

The horrific scenes of pilgrims including ladies and children and Hindu priests being dragged away from an act of devotion celebrating the sanctity of life at the Hindu Temple at Skanda Vale, have incensed the Hindu Community here in Canada. These scenes were witnessed on world wide media and can only lead us to draw the conclusion that the government in Wales has no regard for the rights of the Hindu Community to freely practice their religion.

Could someone please give me a link to this?

Thank you,

Sharon

I put the whole of your quote into google and got:

Holistic

Hol

I feel that sharon is being ironic in asking for a link to the quote. What she means, I think, is that in fact there were no really distressing scenes such as those referred to by the Hindu Conference of Canada, merely people being physically removed so that the slaughter people could get Shambo out of his stable. Or at least that's how she perceived it to be. Sharon, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Love
Sunanda xxx

I was in Skanda Vale when they came to take Shambo and I can tell you I found it distressing.

Having 50 police officers marching towards you, some in full riot gear is quite an intimidating experience. Many people there were extremely shaken by the experience. One man next to me carrying his three year old daughter was not treated well, though the police on the whole did try to be as sensitive as possible under the circumstances.

All that police man-power to get their hands on one bullock which presented no danger to anyone.
"Just following orders." the officers said. It must have been a good day for burglary in the area.

What is ironic is that DEFRA made such a fuss about Shambo being a threat to every living thing it came into contact with, which was absolutely not the case, when (according to the BBC) there is a "strong probability" the current foot-and-mouth outbreak began at a state run research institute.

What a horrible sweeping statement.

Firstly, it is NOT cheaper to have an animal slaughtered and replace them. An animal with TB or other diseases that the governement has decided animals must be slaughtered for cannot enter the food chain. The money that might have been made from the animal is lost and any compensation available never covers that loss and the cost of replacing the animal. That's if you look at this as purely a financial issue.

Secondly, many farmers invest a lot of time and effort in building their herds, they name them and care for them - they do not simply discard animals and go along to the next market and buy a new one, you're not talking about buying this year's must-have shoes here. Some farmers might look at livestock in this way, but thankfully they are in a minority. Most farmers have a huge compassion for their animals and are constantly fighting a battle to keep the balance between caring for their animals and needing to make a living. During foot and mouth, when farmers were weeping to see the mass extermination of herds that they had built up over many years, and having to watch the funeral pyres, it was from compassion. After all, they'd get compensation and be able to go to market and replace them, wouldn't they? Many farmers, when having to have an animal put to sleep, feel a huge compassion and sense of loss, but they are there to make a living so have to put it behind them and get on with things.

Many farmers would prefer to treat their animals for diseases than slaughter them, whether for TB or foot and mouth or many other diseases that treatments are available for, but the government insists instead on slaughtering these animals. Shambo is not unique in this regard.

I really do not understand why this thread has sunk to the level of condemning farmers as lacking compassion and only being interested in the money, and claiming that things would have been different if it were a Muslim issue. It is an issue of British law, pure and simple, and none of us is above the law whatever our religion, our livelihood (in the case of farmers) or our own personal codes of ethics.

Maybe rather than complaining that Hindus are being victimised, the Hindu community could work with farmers to try to get the law changed so that where a treatment is available it can be used to prevent the unnecessary slaughter of the animal. Just a thought.....

My sweeping statement as you say, originates from a RSPCA inspector friend of mine. His job obviously involves going to farms. He recently told me that after a complaint about four sheep in a field unable to stand due to severe foot rot, that there has to be more than 250 sheep in a bad way in a field before a case of cruelty can be brought against a farmer. He says 'Livestock are just commodaties and a business if farmers had compassion they would not be able to do the job'.

He recently had to go to the flooded areas and went to a farm to help rescue lambs from drowning, many had already. The farmer told him and his team to f... off!!. He told me that the farmers dont want their lifestock rescued they just want compensation.

I was in Skanda Vale when they came to take Shambo and I can tell you I found it distressing.

Having 50 police officers marching towards you, some in full riot gear is quite an intimidating experience. Many people there were extremely shaken by the experience. One man next to me carrying his three year old daughter was not treated well, though the police on the whole did try to be as sensitive as possible under the circumstances.

All that police man-power to get their hands on one bullock which presented no danger to anyone.
"Just following orders." the officers said. It must have been a good day for burglary in the area.

What is ironic is that DEFRA made such a fuss about Shambo being a threat to every living thing it came into contact with, which was absolutely not the case, when (according to the BBC) there is a "strong probability" the current foot-and-mouth outbreak began at a state run research institute.

I can sympathise as one who has been pushed and shoved by cops at peaceful demo's.

What is ironic is that DEFRA made such a fuss about Shambo being a threat to every living thing it came into contact with, which was absolutely not the case, when (according to the BBC) there is a "strong probability" the current foot-and-mouth outbreak began at a state run research institute.

Could you please explain what the Foot and Mouth outbreak has to do with shambo. Or are you suggesting that if the animals at Skanda Vale have F&M they should be allowed to live?

Read it through again Healistic.

I can sympathise as one who has been pushed and shoved by cops at peaceful demo's.

Thank you, caringsoul;

Thank you Barafundle.

Prashna