Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

ORIGINAL: Prashna
DEFRA intends to slaughter Shambo, the bull in the temple at Skanda Vale, because he is SUSPECTED to have bovine TB.

Now, suspicion is not proof. There is every possibility that Shambo does not have bovine TB at all. And even if he had, it IS curable. Still DEFRA seems determined to kill him.

According to the BBC website ([link= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/6637359.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/6637359.stm[/link]) Shambo actually tested positive for TB.

"We have been advised that there is provision both within the Animal Health Act 1981 and the more recent TB Order Wales 2006 for permission to treat and vaccinate any animal identified as having TB with the prior consent of the minister for the National Assembly of Wales."

But an assembly government spokesperson said TB was a disease which was transmissible to humans and other mammals.

"We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease.

TB was pretty much eradicated from the UK many years ago. Although I personally sympathise with beliefs of religions and would not like to see animals killed, there is the matter of the health of the General Public to consider. TB can spread very easily to humans.

If the animal can be treated and it is known to be a successful treatement then I would agree that the animal should not be killed.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Thank you, Energylz for your response.

The reason I did not cite the BBC webpage you cited is that it presents incomplete and misleading information.

I understand your concerns about public safety, however, in this case it is a non issue. The bull is completely healthy. He has recieved a positive TB result on a routine diagnostic test, but shows no symptoms at all. The bull is not suffering, nor will he ever enter the food chain and infect anyone. TB is curable. Humans that contract TB are not 'put down', rather they are given medicine and cured. The government policy is to criminalize anyone who attempts to treat this disease in an animal.

It seems only fair to allow this animal to live.The great lengths these people have gone to to protect the life of this animal and to prevent the spread of any disease is truly impressive.

The precautions already taken ensure that this animal presents no danger to humans.

The full story is available at the Skanda Vale website. Pleasesign the petition if you agree.

Butas the Skanda Vale website is a non-medical one, it cannot and does not give the scientific aspects of the test. That can be found for example at:

[link= http://www.oie.int/eng/Normes/mmanual/A_00054.htm ]http://www.oie.int/eng/Normes/mmanual/A_00054.htm[/link]

and

[link= http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1319910&pageindex=5#page ]http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1319910&pageindex=5#page[/link]

To summarise, the simple skin test is NOT definitive. It can provide an indication or suspicion but NOT proof.

"Traditional bacterial culture remains the routine method for confirmation of infection."

Last sentence, 3rd para ref.1.

Hope that clarifies.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Hi prashna, lets hope sanity prevails, and Shambo is saved. I've added my name to the list.

Love

Oakapple xx

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Ive just signed a petition to save him.

[link= http://www.wevaluelife.org ]http://www.wevaluelife.org[/link]

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

I am sorry.

As painfull as it may be, if the law of this country requires it, then so it should be.

IMHO No person or organisation should be outside of the law of the country they reside in.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Thank you Oakapple and Caring Soul,

for your understanding and support.

Healistic,

I believe you have misunderstood my statement and the correct situation.

No one is expressing or implying that he or she is outside the law of the land!

It is perverse and unhelpful to suggest otherwise.

On the contrary as I have stated, it is perfectly lawful to take measures to save this animal, without endangering any human life. I repeat:

"there is provision both within the Animal Health Act 1981 and the more recent TB Order Wales 2006 for permission to treat and vaccinate any animal identified as having TB with the prior consent of the minister for the national Assembly of Wales. "

So the law of the country does NOT require it.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

So the law of the countrydoes NOT require it.

I always thought that DEFRA was a government agency. Thus a legal department with the law behind it?

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

ORIGINAL: Healistic

So the law of the countrydoes NOT require it.

I always thought that DEFRA was a government agency. Thus a legal department with the law behind it?

Hi Healistic,

This really is trivial exercise in logic, so I shall not persist beyond this post.

You thought correctly. However, my point was entirely different. Pray allow me to illustrate:

I am sure you will accept that every Court of Law has the Law behind it.

Suppose a High Court issues an order to evict a person from this country. That order has the law behind it, has it not?

Is the person forcibly put on the next available outward flight?

No. Quite often the person will appeal. And then a Higher Court may reverse the verdict.

Would you say that the Higher Court is acting above the Law?

If you do, then you might find yourself saying that the Law Lords are above the law!

Simple as that, really.

The law must be administered reasonably. First principle, you will find.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

This really is trivial exercise in logic, so I shall not persist beyond this post.

Good.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

DEFRA even controls the RSPCA in as much they dictate farming practices and the RSPCA cannot go against DEFRA.

Ie: there has to be 250 sheep in a field in bad condition before the RSPCA can charge a farmer for cruelty!!. DEFRA rules.

As for TB in the poor bull, because its a sacred bull, the only way it could have contacted TB is through a human contact.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Just seen the hindu centre on TV. There are more animals there and it looks a lovely place, they said all life is sacred to them so the animals wellbeing comes first. Love to visit.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

It would appear that even the Hindu Council are split on this

Jay Lakhani, director of the Vivekananda Centre, a London-based Hindu cultural organisation and director of education at the national temple body Hindu Council UK (HCUK), urged Hindus not to blow the issue out of proportion.
He warned the wrangle over Shambo was "making a mockery of Hinduism" and also ignored the serious health issues at stake.
Mr Lakhani said the Hindu religion placed a "great deal" of emphasis on the importance of using "rational faculties" when deciding on religious issues.
He said: "If there is even the slightest risk of the disease spreading to other animals or even humans, then the way forward would be to put down the animal. "The life of the bull is sacred but so are the lives of other livestock or humans who may - even accidentally - come in contact with this bull."

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

I am so pleased to see Healistic's quotation. I think this is being blown out of all proportion to issues in the wider world.
Sharon

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

ORIGINAL: spinal music

I am so pleased to see Healistic's quotation. I think this is being blown out of all proportion to issues in the wider world.
Sharon

Hi Sharon,

There are several logical inconsistencies here.

1. No one on this MB, least of all me, is blowing any issue out of any proportion.

As I see it, the people at Skanda Vale feel very strongly about this. So they have started an online appeal, which is their democratic right. All I have asked is for people who agree with the appeal to support it. Some will, some won't. Simple as that.

It is not upto healistic or anyone else to dictate how the skanda vele people should feel about this animal!

Nor to dictate to others how they should feel about this issue.

There is no issue. It's a online appeal; plain andsimple. End of...

2. Why shouldn't there be any difference of opinion amomg Hindus on this issue and indeed on every issue? All that indicates is an willingness for independent and rational thought.

Why should every single have to Hindu agree unanimously on this issue.

Surely people on this MB are capable of forming their own judgment, quite independently of whether all Hindus are unanimous on this or not, as the case may be!

3.This bringing in of Hinduism or indeed religion is unnecessary. The point is whether an apparently healthy animal should be killed on mere suspicion, especially when the keepers are willing to get the animal treated successfully, if it is indeed PROVEN to be infected.

4. Mr Lakhani's statement "If there is even the slightest risk of the disease spreading to other animals or even humans, then the way forward would be to put down the animal." is meaningless!

Every time a doctor or a nurse treats a patient with an infectious disease, they are exposed to some risk. Does this mean then that we should stop treating all infectious diseases?

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Dear Prashna, as you say, but with more words, each to their own.
You have done as you saw fit and nobody stopped you. That's fine. I was just expressing an agreement with Healistic's quotation, and that should be fine with you. You don't expect everyone to agree with everyoneelse do you? Sometimes we'll agree, sometimes we'll disagree, and that, I think, should beOK. On the other hand do you think as I couldn't helpI shouldn't have posted?

Doctorshave undertaken to preserve human life. It's different for vets, and a more pragmatic approach is called for.Often this is of benefit to the animal which is often "put out of it's misery" when a human would have to endure a slow and agonising death. During the foot and mouth epidemic thousands of animals (some undoubtedly healthy)were slaughtered to ensure the health of generations to come.

Taken in a larger context: war, rape, starvation, child abusejust for starters, the amount ofenergy put into protectingthis animal is, I think,unseemly.

Sharon

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

It is not upto healistic or anyone else to dictate how the skanda vele people should feel about this animal! Nor to dictate to others how they should feel about this issue.

I am very lucky that I can dictate to everyone on HP and skanda vele. Now will you all listen as I speak.

I have not dictated to anyone what they should do, all I have suggested is that if the powers that be in this country require a possibly infected cow to be destroyed for the protection of others then IMO as sad as it is so it should be. By all means try to save it, you have that right, but whatever is decided let that be the end of it. Many of us have been distraught by the loss of an animal. But many more have been distraught by the loss of a child.

Every time a doctor or a nurse treats a patient with an infectious disease, they are exposed to some risk. Does this mean then that we should stop treating all infectious diseases?

I am sorry but I fail to see any logic in that quote.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

ORIGINAL: spinal music
1. During the foot and mouth epidemic thousands of animals (some undoubtedly healthy)were slaughtered to ensure the health of generations to come.

2. Taken in a larger context: war, rape, starvation, child abusejust for starters, the amount ofenergy put into protectingthis animal is, I think,unseemly. Sharon

Dear Sharon,

1. Irrelevant.

2. Two problems:

(a) Consider a mother of a child needing a bone marrow transplant. Just because the mother cannot prevent ar take active steps against "war, rape, starvation, child abuse" which are all larger issues, and the child might die even with the transplant, perhaps she should carefully monitor and limit the energy she puts into finding a suitable donor. And if that energy input exceeds a carefully calculated level, she must stop and let her child die!

(b) Unless I am very much mistaken, you have put no energy into protecting this animal. Nor has Healistic. If you do not agree with the appeal, don't support it. That's fine.

But, please don'tdoubt the feelings of love that some people undoubtedly feel for this animal!

If they have put a lot of energy into saving his life, it's because of that. What is truly unseemly is to belittle that!

Regards.

Prashna.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Dear Healistic,

Original quote from Mr. Lakhani "If there is even the slightest risk of the disease spreading to other animals or even humans, then the way forward would be to put down the animal. "

I said that's a meaningless statement. Since you cannot see the logic after the first example,I shall try again.

All treatment involves risks. Many hospitals harbour MRSA for example. Recently there was a case of 3 children infected with TB passing on the infection to others and the teacher. By Mr. Lakhani's argument we should stoptreating patients, visiting or being treated in hospitals not guaranteed to be MRSA freeor indeed living.

Hope that helps.

Prashna

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

If they have put a lot of energy into saving his life, it's because of that. What is truly unseemly is to belittle that!

Your logic defies me perhaps you would be so kind as to read other peoples imput. As for quoting MRSA that is most certainly irrelevant.

Unless I am very much mistaken, you have put no energy into protecting this animal. Nor has Healistic. If you do not agree with the appeal, don't support it. That's fine.

You are way off the mark with that quote. Perhaps as you have said yourself that's a meaningless statement. Since you also cannot see the logic after the first example,I also shall try again.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

My dad had TB twice in his lifetime, he didnt get a bullet in his head!!.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Prashna, I don't think my point about the foot and mouth epidemic is irrelevant at all. There is a clear parallel about the prevention of infection.

As for your second point, a mother's first impulse is to preserve life, yes. But, as many mothers of children who have suffered so very much, may tell you,there comes a point when death is a welcome alternative. This matter is not totally black and white. It's never life at all costs. there are often difficult decisions to be made which require a degree of rational thought.
Andas far as human parallels are concerned you don't have to lookfar in this country to find examples in the plague years when villages voluntarily shut themselves off to die rather than infect those around them, for example Eyam in the Peak District. That is heroism, and deserves to be remembered.

As for your third point, I have no doubt of the love that people feel for this bull. I think it is out of proportion within the wider context of the world. But as you indicate, that is just my opinion and you may be of the opinion that compared to providing fresh water toa couple of villages in Africa, say, or doing something, anything, to stop this war in Darfur, this bull's life may be worth it. I rather like cattle myself.

Maybe people are just too scared of death! But we are only here for the blink of an eye anyway. Just look at things in the wider context of millenia of pain, pleasure, suffering etc, and I would say the life of onebull isn't worth all this effort. But as you say, it's up to them, andup to you. If you want to pour your energy into this garlanded bullthen good luck to you.

Sharon

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. ~St. Francis of Assisi
Well done Prashna.Go here for some sense.
"Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them. There is almost no kind of outrage - torture, imprisonment without trial, assassination, the bombing of civilians - which does not change its moral color when it is committed by 'our' side.."

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

Go here for some sense.
[link= http://www.warmwell.com/shambo.html ] http://www.warmwell.com/shambo.html [/link]

I have and found another interesting quote remember there are always two sides to any topic.

"No-one, especially farmers, wants to see the slaughter of their animals - but if there is one rule for us, there should be one rule for all." Mr Huws, vice-president of the Farmers Union of Wales, added: "What would people say if farmers resisted attempts to control this disease? There would be a terrible hue and cry."

Also from an iteresting TV alien.

The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

"if there is one rule for us, there should be one rule for all.

In other words - There is an unfair, badly thought out law. We won't change it, but we'll make everyone suffer equally? Strange logic.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

I forgot to mention that the quotation from the farmer on the warmwell site was [color="#004000"]directed against people who resisted the slaughter of healthy animals during the Foot and Mouth slaughter in 2001. It is there as an example of some of the depressing and ill-informed arguments made at the time[color="#004000"].

Did you not see the comments made by Dr Colin G Fink (Clinical Virologist & Hon. Senior Lecturer in Biological Sciences University of Warwick):

"...a positive skin reaction to TB in an animal is not more than an indicator for the animal having met the infection and raised antibodies and a white cell memory . The many imperfections with this test are false positive, and partial reaction. Many animals who show reaction to the test do not have active disease. The obverse/ perverse is that some with rampant TB have a negative skin test as they have no T cell response and have made no attempt at an immune response to limit the spread of the organism. There is another test made for man which demonstrates active disease only. It is not yet licenced for animal use and there is the usual resistance to anything new from the usual 'authorities'."

"(Shambo's) attendants are another beacon lighting the Byzantine attittudes from the government veterinary service and DEFRA.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

One would assume that the fact Shambo hasn't been put down already is because, not only are they considering the sensitive nature of the case, but they want to actually carry out further test to ensure that TB is present, and I would assume that if it is attempts will be made to treat it in the first instance.

However, for a supposedly "sacred" bull, I find it a bit of an insult that Shambo has suddenly manifested a human personality with it's own Blog and "Moo Tube" entry... [link= http://www.skandavale.org/shambo.htm ]http://www.skandavale.org/shambo.htm[/link]

That is an insult on our intelligence. If thebull is sacred it is sacred, and the people responsible for this should not be lowering themselves to such childish tactics in order to imply a personality on the bull which is in fact their own personality. I recall the uproar a few years back when there was a cartoon with a religious figure depicted init, so why should treating a sacred animal in this way be any different. IMO, it's a blatent mis-use of a sacred object within the religion.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

The idea is that all life is sacred.

I think since Shambo became world famous the weblink is meant to allow some interaction with the new celebrity and encourage activity on the petition. It's intention is to draw attention and sympathy to Shambo's plight. In our largely carnivorous society animals will naturally be considered disposable. Anything that encourages the world to relate to the fate of an otherwise voiceless creature, as the this does, can't be bad.

Human life is also sacred so really Big Brother is more of an insult to our intelligence.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

This begs some questions about the nature of "sacred" : if all life is sacred does that devalue the nature of sacred? How can all life be sacred? We'd all end up like the Jains who walk along with guaze over their mouths for fear of eating a fly.

And is sacred not just a "religious" notion handed down by the wise to empower themselves and also to keep the people alive - if cattle were killed in times of famine there would have been no milk for daily diet, and no animals to plough the fields.

RE: Shambo's Life in danger - please help.

"If all life is sacred does that devalue the nature of sacred? How can all life be sacred?"

If life is thought to be merely a condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms then life isn't really worth the fuss and therefore not sacred.

If, on the other hand, you think as I do, that life is to be highly esteemed for some spiritual, nonmaterial, or moral quality, then it is sacred.

How about this for a definition for sacred:

To be properly immune from violence or interference. Secured against violation or infringement as by reverence or sense of right.

I prefer to aim high as far as ideals are concerned, like the Jains, even though (or because) I fall short most of the time.