In another Hinduism thread I said to Cub that I’d start a thread on Santoshi Ma. There’s a time limitation on me so in fact I’ll just give a brief overview of part of an article I have. (No doubt an online search would prove interesting.)
In “The Elephant God and His Daughter” by Paul B. Courtright (July 1987, in “The World and I”) Courtright goes into Ganesh and Santoshi Ma, and this is just a quick summation of the facts / comments on Santoshi Ma.
A very interesting deity since she was only “invented” recently – the impression is the mid-20th century and perhaps as early as the 1960s? I don’t know if Cub or anyone knows that Santoshi Ma was revered earlier? Santoshi Ma is the daughter of Ganesh, but unmarried, so is a Hindu version of the Virgin. “She combines two crucial associations of women and power: power that comes from restraint and power that comes from nurturing.” Her main characteristic is her great concern for the mundane well-being of her devotees (she looks after the minor matters). The two rituals toward her are vrata performed every Friday until a wish is fulfilled from the devotee; vrata consists of fasting and offering raw sugar and chick-peas to her image.
Does this conform to what practising Hindus know and do?
Two interesting aspects of her are firstly, how as a recent (it seems?) deity, she became well-known through modern means of mass communication. In fact, unlike the ancient deities who are written about in Sanskrit, anonymous books began appearing about her written in modern Indian languages. Then knowledge of her spread in the 1960s through chain mail! If you received a letter about her you had to pass it on to so many others or such-and-such would happen to you. But above all, 1975 saw the release of the film about her, still repeated, “Jai Santoshi Ma”, a typical Bollywood with sudden dances etc., but a complex and moving plot of the involving the benevolent goddess. Particularly from 1975 she became revered, even supplanting other worship.
Santoshi Ma seems to appeal in particular to middle-class and lower middle-class women in urban areas. Her sudden rise seems to parallel a desire for these women to be free of the hierarchical system apparent in some aspects of Hindu society. In other words, she is almost “the” feminist” deity.
Courtright, in 1987, pondered that with her swift rise to fame, there might soon appear monasteries (or nunneries?) devoted to her. I wonder if this has occurred?
I've only got this and more from reading, and wonder what actual Hindus can add, or if there are inaccuracies here? Is worship to her still growing?
Of course, it's a fascinating case since we can see its origins and how the worship toward a goddess has first begun, but this time also using the mass media for swift promulgation.
Is she a major figure of worship in Britain I wonder?
Love and Light,
Venetian
RE: Santoshi Ma
Hi David
Thanks for all this information. I found this website: which pretty well echoes what you've already said.
You ask:
Courtright, in 1987, pondered that with her swift rise to fame, there might soon appear monasteries (or nunneries?) devoted to her. I wonder if this has occurred?
and I have to say that IME ashrams (I presume that is what's meant by 'monasteries') don't grow around the gods as such, but rather around a teacher or saint (guru). I certainly don't know of any dedicated to Santoshi Ma. In point of fact, in the south I don't believe that Santoshi Ma figures that much in day to day temple worship. As I said earlier, I first encountered her in Roger Housden's book (an excellent introduction to Sacred India BTW) and then she popped up again in pujas and bhajans in Amma's ashram in Kerala. When I asked the priests what she represented they said 'She is the Goddess of Happiness' - so I suppose you can't ask for more than that.
I expect she figures more in North India, the movie after all was in Hindi (I presume) and that is not widely spoken in the South.
But I do like your theory that she was just hiding in the wings and then used the movie as a vehicle to make herself known to the public! I've just remembered that, in the south, you can make the comment 'santosham' to mean 'very happy with this'. Presumably that's where she gets her name from. But I never realised that she is Ganesh's daughter: again that places her in the North as Ganesh is a bachelor in the South!
Love
Sunanda xxx
RE: Santoshi Ma
Sunanda, hi,
The info on that link is very interesting, and yes, I'd been thinking along the same lines regarding fiction and reality. Of course, a sceptic could claim that many deities of religions, if they are not historical figures, are fictitious. Some even make that claim wholly or in part of Jesus and have on these forums. But I didn't want to seem dismissive and an open-minded approach could say that devotion to Santoshi Ma, despite how she came to the fore, is "hitting the target" for any of three reasons:
1. Worship to a goddess, even if fictitious, will go to the feminine part of God anyway and is never lost, and will even be answered.
2. An extrapolation of that would be that perhaps (as I believe) there are untold beings "up there", so given the rise of a "fictitious" Santoshi Ma, one would come down and actually take on the role, receiving the worship and responding.
3. Or as you and the link suggest, the outlets such as the movie were used to make her known.
Yes BTW, she's a northern Indian phenomenon. The article I have pins down in detail where she "caught on".
Good point on ashrams and that they're going to need a physical figure in order to happen. It would take someone to come along as a "teacher of Santoshi Ma" or such - but it probably won't happen as she isn't intended to be one of the main deities such as you'd give up your life to in an ashram.
I'd never thought of that - Ganesh doesn't have a consort? Would you say he's an eligible batchelor? 😀
Edit to add: From the one article I've read, I gather that the feminist aspect is important, and Santoshi Ma couldn't have arisen 100 years ago. She seems to give the non-rural ladies of northern India a feeling of greater worth, and someone to go to, though she's not restricted to the ladies.
Also, the link emphasises how such films are a "ritual" in the Hindu context, not entertainment. This is true according to other articles I have. Remember that there were two screen versions of The Mahabharata? One was the very long Indian 'soap' with poor production, and there was a much shorter Western production. A Western scholar sat with a Hindu family through all of these and noted: (1) that the Indian version was indeed watched as though partaking in a ritual, (2) the family were aghast at many "errors" in the Western version that a Westerner would never pick up on - such as "He should not be wearing that colour because the colour represents --------- [whatever]!" and etc., etc.
V xxx
RE: Santoshi Ma
Hi David,
Lovely to continue our chat about Santoshi Maa! I couldn't find the complete article you mention (subscription only), but will look into finding it.
the impression is the mid-20th century and perhaps as early as the 1960s? I don’t know if Cub or anyone knows that Santoshi Ma was revered earlier?
If my mum's recollection is correct, then Santoshi Maa was revered as early as the 1940s when she was a child. This would have been in East Africa, so the Goddess' influence may have flown the boundaries of India very early. Perhaps knowledge of Her travelled with the Indian migrant workers who moved to Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda.
Her main characteristic is her great concern for the mundane well-being of her devotees (she looks after the minor matters).
Far from it. My experience of Her has been of a deity providing assistance in extreme circumstances. She tests Her devotees' love for Her very strictly (e.g if you eat sour foods then you will feel Her wrath - on that basis not sure I'd have liked to receive a chain mail regarding her [&:]). But once She's sure that you're sincere in your prayers, She helps in the most difficult situations and gives on the basis of very simple offerings. No need for years of intense jappam sitting under a bilwa tree! I think my mum turned to praying to Her in my childhood as she felt that life had gotten painfully difficult, and that if any deity could help, She would.
The two rituals toward her are vrata performed every Friday until a wish is fulfilled from the devotee; vrata consists of fasting and offering raw sugar and chick-peas to her image.
We also used to read/hear a story about Her as part of my mum's puja, and the whole family could not eat sour foods in the house. That was quite difficult as most Gujarati cuisine involves pureed tomaotes, and as for breakfast cereals with added ascorbic acid . . . The gur and chickpeas would be placed over a copper container of water.
there might soon appear monasteries (or nunneries?) devoted to her. I wonder if this has occurred?
I've not come across any murthis of Her in temples in the UK or Gujarat, but I think a painting of Her is kept with the other Devis at the Gita mandir in Birmingham. If you [link= http://jaisantoshimaa.com/temples.asp ]*click here*[/link] you can see a list of some temples that exist in India. The majority seem to be in a couple of southern states in India. Whereabouts in the south do you visit, Sunanda? Perhaps worship of Her is not so widespread in India?
I don't think She has a huge following in this country, although you'd be likely to find Her picture in many households as many women gain so much comfort from praying to Her. As I mentioned in the other post, She's very much the patron saint of abused and neglected women who are seeking a comforting mother figure when they have left their own mothers far behind. Something that the same site I mention says is that there is no need to dedicate a temple to Her as She is everywhere and willing to help. Best place to have Gods and Goddesses reside is in your heart!
Jai Santoshi Maa
Love,
Cub
RE: Santoshi Ma
Great, thanks Cub. Fascinating.
Most 'academic study' on Hinduism - "on" it as opposed to carrying on within it as pandits - is done by Westerners who are either largely outsiders or even if, say Hare Krishnas, they may not know the whole of the real Indian experience. So your info is enlightening - such as Santoshi Ma in Africa in the 40s. That may place her back in India a fair way before that.
Meandering thought - if such a deity does "begin" where the name and personage wasn't known before, I wonder with who, and how, at the very beginning?
RE: Santoshi Ma
Perhaps new deities visit a few people in person to make the ocnnection and pass their message? I'm thinking along the lines of Mme Blavatsky type meetings with Ascended Master El Morya and I have a vague recollection of there having been more recent ones. Close family friends of mine originated from Calcutta, and were closely connected to Kali Maa's temple. The daughter grew up seeing Kali Maa whilst playing outside. Kali Maa is of course a lot older.
I guess dreams, meditations and the like are all forms in which deities visit.
Here's a slightly different question. Is there a difference between deities and ascended masters? From my Hindu perspective there is, as I pray to gods and goddesses, but keep on 'bumping' into information about certain ascended masters in my reading and inner work. However, I would not revere ascended masters as I would Hindu deities. What got me thinking on this was Doreen Virtue's book on Archangels and Ascended Masters. I respect that she is expressing her personal view, no offence is intended and she isn't claiming to have the whole picture. But I was taken aback to see Hindu deities discussed of in the same breath as 'New Age' Masters. Are Ganesh, Krishna etc ascended masters of ancient who have grown a following over aeons to form cults, and thereafter a faith? I think this ties in with your question, David, on how deities are established, but I'm looking at it from the other end of the telescope so to speak!
RE: Santoshi Ma
Hi Cub,
That's a great question! Yes, there is a difference but it's not black/white. Between Ascended Masters and deities. (BTW Doreen Virtue knows diddly squat about the Masters - she just derived her information from others, and got it wrong, from the real sources.)
If we take Ascended Masters as being real (asI do - you can easily make the case since hundreds of people have met them physically and written about it - I stress physically, not psychically) then I can tell you they do not wish to be worshipped. They consider themselves to be our Brothers and Sisters on the Path. But like someone who is ten years older and you are still eight years old, or likesomeone who has become an expert in some craft, they are there and keen to help us by teaching us and aiding us along the way.If anyone worships them they say, "Direct your adoration towardGod, and toward your own IndividualMighty God Presence." They accept and give brotherly or sisterly love, but don't want to be put on pedestals.
As a thumb-nail sketch, deities may or may not be real. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, for example, may represent the Triune "energies of God" or aspects of God, and not be personages; whereas the Masters, male and female, are people who were once like you and me but who have overcome all karma, transcended all limitations, and achieved total moksha. So they are certainly real persons.
So in a way, I'm only just starting to realise in reply to you that "worship" toward deities is great for people at a certain stage in their development -the deities are there to be worshipped since the people have no knowledge of anythingthat hits the target better. But I think "worship" or rather Love and Adoration will in the future be toward the One and toward our own Higher Self, as the Masters advise. Deity worship frankly may be a bit, er, primitive.
But it's a tough one.It isn't so simple because if you worship Kali or Mother Mary it all goes to God, and transforms you too, anyway.
I said it isn't black and white between Masters and deities and what I mean by this is thatthough the Masters are real individuals, some have been taken on as deities. Jesus is the obvious example in the West, much to his chagrin I'm sure, and the same may be true of Hindu deities. But in Hinduism we usually know if they existed- I'm associated with the Ramakrishna Order in which definite people such as Ramakrishna, his consort Sarada, and Vivekananda are worshipped. But was Krishna a living person? Or Ganesh??? Opinions differ.
Best links on the Masters IMO are:
[link= http://www.ascension-research.org ]www.ascension-research.org[/link]
[link= http://www.templeofthepresence.org ]www.templeofthepresence.org[/link]
.... though I could dig out Theosophy sites which list and have the texts to dozens of people who knew them, met them, and describe them as physical people, if there's a need to prove their historical reality.
V xxx
RE: Santoshi Ma
This brings up a really interesting subject about ascended masters and deities. Perhaps the only difference is that the ascended masters had physical bodies, and the deities were already as they always have been. But then I just remembered, when I read about Vamana (the dwarf avatar), I read that with his first step he was small, with the second he grew larger, and with the third he revealed his infinite form.
That reminds me, the word avatar. Ifthe word did not exist, nothing would have triggered it. As most of you may know, in this field,an avatar is the incarnation of a Hindu diety.
Maybe then,atdifferent times on the face of the physical plane existed avatars from all deities. Were we not once all Gods descending from the source to realise our perfection?
What happened to the beasts and demi-gods bodies? Where they destroyed in the great cataclysms that took place? Have we found any? I know that we found an area of nuclear devistation that took place 8000 - 12,000 years ago, told of in the Mahabharata. I would definatly like to know more about wether Krishna had a physical body on earth.
Aum Tat Sat Aum
El.
RE: Santoshi Ma
ORIGINAL: venetian
So in a way, I'm only just starting to realise in reply to you that "worship" toward deities is great for people at a certain stage in their development -the deities are there to be worshipped since the people have no knowledge of anythingthat hits the target better. But I think "worship" or rather Love and Adoration will in the future be toward the One and toward our own Higher Self, as the Masters advise. Deity worship frankly may be a bit, er, primitive.
That's a quote from myself above. :DI'd like to elucidate, as many people, who may read this, do worship various beings, East and West.
To worship a god, goddess, or any form of deity is to worship something outside of yourself. It often, or usually, gets to the stage of being on hands and knees and praying for that outside agency to give you something, even if it's a very good thing. It can be begging. It can be promising to do this or that so long as the outside agency will just, please, listen and respond. Or you will fast in some way, etc., etc. Then various rituals are formed such as the old killing of calves, or Christian and Hindu rituals. (Does an image of Krishna really need to be fed??)
My understanding is that we are upon Earth to gain self-mastery. Not that the human or mortal ego can ever gain spiritual mastery, but that's the unreal part of ourselves anyway. We are in fact a part of God, we are in fact gods and goddesses who have lost or forgotten that understanding and power. Self-mastery, as the meaning of life, ultimately results in ourselves becoming a true Master. And it can't be accomplished by worshipping outside deities, real or unreal. If there's worship to be done, then the best is to worship one's own God-Self, that Great Being of which we down here below are a part.
Edit next morning to add: I STILL don't think I've explained my own background on how I've understood worship of 'gods' or 'goddesses' to be something to be transcended. I should stress that you do Love the higher being, you do Love the God in them. But you don't feel that they are something totally above you and that you yourself can never be. If Santoshi Ma exists as an actual personage, therefore, I'd say she wants to be treated like an elder sister, or a spiritual advisor - but only so that the disciple can become the same kind of being she is. It's the idea that there are gods and humans as two totally different 'species' which I've been taught to shun. This is the old-fashioned concept found in most world religions today which the new, incoming wave of thinking is slowly overcoming....
Venetian
RE: Santoshi Ma
Hi David,
I've been mulling what you say over (I have to digest ideas in small morsels as I'm so small of stature :D).
I think the elements of deity worship can be mechanically done and so become hollow ritual. The number of times I've been to the temple or to a festival only to see ladies doing their duty in the hopes of divine recompense. It feels like the bartering tradesmen of the NT have come in through the back door into a different temple, only they have the gall to make deals with God. I don't believe that God is there merely to give us our crying wants, and unfortunately in Hinduism He has sometimes been diminished in importance to become a tooth fairy in the factory of life. That's my (harsh) critique of some Hindus.
But how about another possibility? I've found deity worship to be the garden gate to higher levels devotion. The very act of honouring Shiv Bhagvan by performing lingum puja has made me love God so much more deeply than I could have imagined. The practice of worshipping with Ganga water, panchamrut, flowers and bilipatra has brought me so much closer to Him (not just Shiva, but the omnipotent Bramhan), and I've sought to be grateful for that love rather than ask for gain. As I've grown away from the tradesman's game of market place exchange (in my teens I was just as guilty of the same practices I criticise those poor misguided ladies for), I've laid the foundations for a temple in my own heart. The rituals that accompany my faith have been the workman's tools to build a palace fit for God to reside in my being. I care to become one with Him one day, whichever deity's mask he is play-acting in, but at the moment I find ritual is the way to best honour Him and lift my vibration. My hope is that I can transmute my baser elements through humble service to become more worthy of Him.
By lifting myself higher and bringing God increasingly into my living moment can’t I become my Higher Self and so join Him?
Perhaps deity worship can lead to union with God?
Love and light,
Cub 😀
RE: Santoshi Ma
Excellent points Crystal Cub, I really like what you said there, quite inspiring. I also feel the same way.There are few deities that I try toconnect with or cultivateunconditional love for, but when I do, I feel a great love outward, which comes back inward, so the loveautomatically is omnipotent, because love itself is when thingsbecome complete and whole (the whole idea ofYoga/union).
Crystal Cub, I think that deity worship can lead to Union with God, but it must have love intended, or it is useless. Love is God, and the more complete we feel, the more unified we are with God.
Some tend to think that union happens in a flash. Although that may be the case for some, more likely we gain it with acceleration. Just like waking up out of a dream, at first we are tired, but then once we get going, we are wide awake. Hehehe, I wouldn't get into the whole idea of which is actually reality right now though, lol.
I tend toconnect more with ascended masters, Babaji in specific. I also feel Paramhansa Yogananda's presence with me eternally, especially after reading his book. But I can find joyin cultivating love for the one and all God. Some may find it difficult because they think, "where do I even begin to comprehend a finite andinfinite God." My advice is, dont worry about that, just concentrate on one thing, and"everything" will come to you(lol, oooh, doublespeach). But of course, you can do whichever way works best for you! And thats why I think worship of higher deities is worship of the higher self.
wor·ship [link= https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dworship ]
[/link] (P)[link= http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html ]Pronunciation Key[/link](wûr
sh
p)
n.
-
The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
So then, if love is involved, then the devotee is able to cultivate a love for a higher source, which penetrates the lower self, bringing us to the same vibration as the higher God or self. So maybe when we love a higher god, we arealso loving that higher god within ourselves, and we are loving our higher self.
Its just important to connect the outer to the inner. I could see where some may get flustered when all they do is pray for good things to happen to them, and yet they do not take on self-mastery in the name of sevice.
What do you think?
love and light
Elyezual.
RE: Santoshi Ma
Hi C Cub,
I can only agree - entirely. One can use a named 'deity' as a way of reaching the one God, no doubt about it.
For a Caucasian Westerner who has never lived long-term in India I am very Hindu-oriented, but my main source of contact with Hinduism is through friends who are in the Ramakrishna Order. Now this Order "worships" Ramakrishna, his consort Sarada Devi, and his main pupil, Vivekananda. In their pujas I simply adjust my own mind and heart, so when there is worship to, say, Sarada Devi, in my own heart I am doing it to the entire 'feminine' aspect of the allness of God - not just to the person who lived and passed on. So I think it's all a question of what is going on in your heart / mind.
V xxx
RE: Santoshi Ma
ORIGINAL: venetian
To worship a god, goddess, or any form of deity is to worship something outside of yourself.
Exactly which is why God does not ask for worship. Worship was created by man.
It often, or usually, gets to the stage of being on hands and knees and praying for that outside agency to give you something, even if it's a very good thing. It can be begging. It can be promising to do this or that so long as the outside agency will just, please, listen and respond. Or you will fast in some way, etc., etc. Then various rituals are formed such as the old killing of calves, or Christian and Hindu rituals. (Does an image of Krishna really need to be fed??)
When you surrender all to God, God surrenders all to you.
My understanding is that we are upon Earth to gain self-mastery.
Good to see you writing about it David 😉
Not that the human or mortal ego can ever gain spiritual mastery, but that's the unreal part of ourselves anyway.
That is part of the illusion promoted by the East and this has kept people in separation and duality. EGO is the power of GOD and it is only when this power is misqualified that it becomes 'altered' and as we know by purifying the misqualified energies and bringing them into alignment one can achieve self mastery and use the power of Gods will-to-good for good purpose.
Edit next morning to add: I STILL don't think I've explained my own background on how I've understood worship of 'gods' or 'goddesses' to be something to be transcended. I should stress that you do Love the higher being, you do Love the God in them. But you don't feel that they are something totally above you and that you yourself can never be. If Santoshi Ma exists as an actual personage, therefore, I'd say she wants to be treated like an elder sister, or a spiritual advisor - but only so that the disciple can become the same kind of being she is.
I agree
Love beyond measure
Kim xx
RE: Santoshi Ma
Hi El,
Glad you liked the post. Can I come back to you later, my brains too foggy to think straight at mo . . . been a long day
Hi V - glad I understood your post # 9 okay 😀
love,
Cub