I’m doing a brief study on the situation of females within Hinduism. One aspect of this, an off-shoot of the main topic, is the phenomenon in India – and also outside India in some places such as South Africa where Indians have emigrated to – for women to be ‘possessed by Kali’. It’s not all that rare.
Normally in the Hindu lifestyle a woman’s role is fairly clearly marked out. From a Western perspective it can appear as though women in Hinduism are somewhat subservient. But there are instances in which both men and women become people who are regularly ‘possessed’ by a deity, and for women this deity is often Kali.
I’ll quote a few lines from material I’m reading:
“Trance possession, usually by one or other of the fierce Goddesses, such as Kali, Durga, Draupadi or Mariammam, is one of the most important features of these [South African Hindu fire-walking] festivals. People in trances display some of the characteristics associated with the particular deity. Generally, women are possessed by one of the fierce Goddesses, behaving in uninhibited ways not normally expected of respectable Hindu women. Women appear to experience possession more frequently than men and men tend to be more often possessed by one of the male deities, rather than by a Goddess.
“The usual triggers for entering a trance state are drumming, clapping, and chanting, and the smell of burning incense and camphor. As the trance comes on, devotees often start trembling, their eyes sometimes roll back, and women with long hair loosen their buns and throw their arms out while twisting their bodies. Some women shriek loudly as the Goddess takes control of them. These women often behave in fierce and frightening ways with their eyes wide and staring, they advance on people, grunting and gesticulating, and dancing ecstatically. They do not seem to feel pain when needles are inserted through their tongues and cheeks and hooks, with garlands attached, are pinned through the flesh of their chests and backs.”
There are also accounts in which the possessing Goddess comes regularly, such as every evening, and acts as advisor, councillor and doctor, sitting and conversing more sedately than described above with perhaps 30 to 60 people in queue per night, through a woman prone to such states. Family members may also be trained to let Kali take them over.
OK, so I’m wondering what peoples’ opinions are on this. I’d be particularly interested in feedback from people who are Hindus or have studied Hinduism quite deeply. For the Hindu perspective.
It seems to me that there are a few ways of looking at this.
1. Hindus take the effect at face value, believing that this IS ‘Kali’.
2. Some Westerners studying this don’t see an occult side to it at all and rationalise it away. To them, this is an outburst from the unconscious of some Hindu women due to their normally repressed lives. By taking on the persona of ‘Kali’ they can give vent to some of their repressed energies.
3. I see this more as a cross-cultural thing, and the Hindu possessions are only their localised ‘take’ on something wider. Isn’t this just like shamanism? Isn’t it very much like the Christian ‘speaking in tongues’ which they perhaps mistakenly today put down to ‘the Holy Spirit’? So maybe you get this in all cultures, and Hindu women simply take on the guise of ‘Kali’. But I don’t actually believe it is Kali, or even that there is a particular being who talks to you or has an individual life, called Kali. I see ‘Kali’ as more of an abstraction or a symbol of energy.
So if I’m right, it could be that such women are getting literally possessed by some form of discarnate, but that it isn’t actually Kali; or there may be no discarnate and it may indeed be some strange but powerful aspect of the unconscious. (I believe this aspect of the unconscious is at the root of much channelling, for example, and that there’s not really any outside being involved.)
I think right now I tend to the idea that it’s actual possession, by either outside discarnates or
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Forgive me and forget it, Prashna.
The truth is, I wasn't looking for an intellectual debate with you or with anyone.
I was just reading up on modern India, and discovered some widespread things that I never knew of, and which the West wouldn't come near to tolerating.
Peace,
V
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi venetian,
There is nothing to forgive or to forget. What you wrote was a spontaneous reaction. It was honest, decent and showed genuine concern. What more can anyone ask for? I certainly do not ask for more and am genuinely grateful when I receive that much.
You just read about some abominable practices, did you?
Well, I have seen sights that I have had to turn away because I could not bear it. Monkeys and bears used inhumanely by beggars or worse still the gangmaster that uses poor people to beg in the streets for their own profit. That's bad enough!
But when they deform children and use themto beg to fill their coffers, you tell me how am I supposed to bear that?
The abuse that I have seen and the complete lack of concern surrounding it beggars belief. No, you cannot afford to let yourself be influenced by all that. Those will be there for some years yet. But we won't. Let us use the limited time we have on this earth to do what we can for others if posssible, if not, thenfor ourselves. And I do not mean earthly riches. I mean riches that are beyond compare, beyond all earthly measure.
Regards.
Prashna
I’m doing a brief study on the situation of females within Hinduism. One aspect of this, an off-shoot of the main topic, is the phenomenon in India – and also outside India in some places such as South Africa where Indians have emigrated to – for women to be ‘possessed by Kali’. It’s not all that rare.
Normally in the Hindu lifestyle a woman’s role is fairly clearly marked out. From a Western perspective it can appear as though women in Hinduism are somewhat subservient. But there are instances in which both men and women become people who are regularly ‘possessed’ by a deity, and for women this deity is often Kali.
I’ll quote a few lines from material I’m reading:
“Trance possession, usually by one or other of the fierce Goddesses, such as Kali, Durga, Draupadi or Mariammam, is one of the most important features of these [South African Hindu fire-walking] festivals. People in trances display some of the characteristics associated with the particular deity. Generally, women are possessed by one of the fierce Goddesses, behaving in uninhibited ways not normally expected of respectable Hindu women. Women appear to experience possession more frequently than men and men tend to be more often possessed by one of the male deities, rather than by a Goddess.
“The usual triggers for entering a trance state are drumming, clapping, and chanting, and the smell of burning incense and camphor. As the trance comes on, devotees often start trembling, their eyes sometimes roll back, and women with long hair loosen their buns and throw their arms out while twisting their bodies. Some women shriek loudly as the Goddess takes control of them. These women often behave in fierce and frightening ways with their eyes wide and staring, they advance on people, grunting and gesticulating, and dancing ecstatically. They do not seem to feel pain when needles are inserted through their tongues and cheeks and hooks, with garlands attached, are pinned through the flesh of their chests and backs.”
There are also accounts in which the possessing Goddess comes regularly, such as every evening, and acts as advisor, councillor and doctor, sitting and conversing more sedately than described above with perhaps 30 to 60 people in queue per night, through a woman prone to such states. Family members may also be trained to let Kali take them over.
OK, so I’m wondering what peoples’ opinions are on this. I’d be particularly interested in feedback from people who are Hindus or have studied Hinduism quite deeply. For the Hindu perspective.
It seems to me that there are a few ways of looking at this.
1. Hindus take the effect at face value, believing that this IS ‘Kali’.
2. Some Westerners studying this don’t see an occult side to it at all and rationalise it away. To them, this is an outburst from the unconscious of some Hindu women due to their normally repressed lives. By taking on the persona of ‘Kali’ they can give vent to some of their repressed energies.
3. I see this more as a cross-cultural thing, and the Hindu possessions are only their localised ‘take’ on something wider. Isn’t this just like shamanism? Isn’t it very much like the Christian ‘speaking in tongues’ which they perhaps mistakenly today put down to ‘the Holy Spirit’? So maybe you get this in all cultures, and Hindu women simply take on the guise of ‘Kali’. But I don’t actually believe it is Kali, or even that there is a particular being who talks to you or has an individual life, called Kali. I see ‘Kali’ as more of an abstraction or a symbol of energy.
So if I’m right, it could be that such women are getting literally possessed by some form of discarnate, but that it isn’t actually Kali; or there may be no discarnate and it may indeed be some strange but powerful aspect of the unconscious. (I believe this aspect of the unconscious is at the root of much channelling, for example, and that there’s not really any outside being involved.)
I think right now I tend to the idea that it’s actual possession, by either outside discarnates or
Dear Venetian,
I have been studying Kashmir Shaivism for almost a year now and have been doing puja to Kali and Bhairava through the Universal Shaiva Fellowship in the tradition of Swami Lakshmanjoo. I am also an American pagan blogger, PR and reality show personality. I have been fascinated by this topic recently. Can you please contact me and let me know if you have completed this story and/or documentary? Marie Bargas hollywoodwitch@gmail.com
dear ven,
hindu relegion is really hard to understand but luckily we got some great books. try this book " Rajayoga" by swami vivekananda , a scientific way to understand the relegions.
God speed.
dear ven,
hindu relegion is really hard to understand but luckily we got some great books. try this book " Rajayoga" by swami vivekananda , a scientific way to understand the relegions.
God speed.
This thread has been dormant for over a year....Ven may not be active on the forum any more.