I’m doing a brief study on the situation of females within Hinduism. One aspect of this, an off-shoot of the main topic, is the phenomenon in India – and also outside India in some places such as South Africa where Indians have emigrated to – for women to be ‘possessed by Kali’. It’s not all that rare.
Normally in the Hindu lifestyle a woman’s role is fairly clearly marked out. From a Western perspective it can appear as though women in Hinduism are somewhat subservient. But there are instances in which both men and women become people who are regularly ‘possessed’ by a deity, and for women this deity is often Kali.
I’ll quote a few lines from material I’m reading:
“Trance possession, usually by one or other of the fierce Goddesses, such as Kali, Durga, Draupadi or Mariammam, is one of the most important features of these [South African Hindu fire-walking] festivals. People in trances display some of the characteristics associated with the particular deity. Generally, women are possessed by one of the fierce Goddesses, behaving in uninhibited ways not normally expected of respectable Hindu women. Women appear to experience possession more frequently than men and men tend to be more often possessed by one of the male deities, rather than by a Goddess.
“The usual triggers for entering a trance state are drumming, clapping, and chanting, and the smell of burning incense and camphor. As the trance comes on, devotees often start trembling, their eyes sometimes roll back, and women with long hair loosen their buns and throw their arms out while twisting their bodies. Some women shriek loudly as the Goddess takes control of them. These women often behave in fierce and frightening ways with their eyes wide and staring, they advance on people, grunting and gesticulating, and dancing ecstatically. They do not seem to feel pain when needles are inserted through their tongues and cheeks and hooks, with garlands attached, are pinned through the flesh of their chests and backs.”
There are also accounts in which the possessing Goddess comes regularly, such as every evening, and acts as advisor, councillor and doctor, sitting and conversing more sedately than described above with perhaps 30 to 60 people in queue per night, through a woman prone to such states. Family members may also be trained to let Kali take them over.
OK, so I’m wondering what peoples’ opinions are on this. I’d be particularly interested in feedback from people who are Hindus or have studied Hinduism quite deeply. For the Hindu perspective.
It seems to me that there are a few ways of looking at this.
1. Hindus take the effect at face value, believing that this IS ‘Kali’.
2. Some Westerners studying this don’t see an occult side to it at all and rationalise it away. To them, this is an outburst from the unconscious of some Hindu women due to their normally repressed lives. By taking on the persona of ‘Kali’ they can give vent to some of their repressed energies.
3. I see this more as a cross-cultural thing, and the Hindu possessions are only their localised ‘take’ on something wider. Isn’t this just like shamanism? Isn’t it very much like the Christian ‘speaking in tongues’ which they perhaps mistakenly today put down to ‘the Holy Spirit’? So maybe you get this in all cultures, and Hindu women simply take on the guise of ‘Kali’. But I don’t actually believe it is Kali, or even that there is a particular being who talks to you or has an individual life, called Kali. I see ‘Kali’ as more of an abstraction or a symbol of energy.
So if I’m right, it could be that such women are getting literally possessed by some form of discarnate, but that it isn’t actually Kali; or there may be no discarnate and it may indeed be some strange but powerful aspect of the unconscious. (I believe this aspect of the unconscious is at the root of much channelling, for example, and that there’s not really any outside being involved.)
I think right now I tend to the idea that it’s actual possession, by either outside discarnates or
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Wikipedia ...
I've had some big lessons about that recently. It's not necessarily a benevolent, neutral project. Anyone can write the articles for it, and do, ... and on controversial subjects with differing points of view there's an on-going struggle for control of articles ...
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
ORIGINAL: venetian
Wikipedia ...
I've had some big lessons about that recently. It's not necessarily a benevolent, neutral project. Anyone can write the articles for it, and do, ... and on controversial subjects with differing points of view there's an on-going struggle for control of articles ...
I think I know what you’re referring to (also wasn’t there quite an amusing 'misinformation' episode with wikipedia quite recently too?:D).
However, I’m not sure I can easily summon a picture of wikipedia with major clandestine powers fighting to bring their evil influence to bear on the meaning of a regular old Yorkshire expression like ‘nowt’🙂
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
I don't think I was referring to anything in particular, or I meant it as a general comment. As I had thought it was a "real" encyclopedia. It turns out, probably it isn't, as some who write the entries have invested interests. Some topics I wouldn't even dream of looking up! :D- anything controversial. But apologies to all - this should be a different thread subject.
'Nowt', however ... give me time, Roger. I'll come up with at least a couple of conspiracy scenarios there. Weishaupt, for example, had the phrase, "No Ordinary World Time" i.e. 'NOWT', by which he meant to escape everyday reality and consciousness. It was an Illuminatti plot, transposed into the English North-West. (I joke of course!)
V
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Roger,
For I believe that is your name. If not, please accept my apologies. I find it difficult to use your moniker of 'conspiritualist'.
Also, forgive me for responding to your post. I shall try to be humble as you require.
Your main points appear to be
1. " I was only really highlighting that Kali is not just about “sex”, I am sorry. I find that offensive. I believe I have known about Ma Kali since childhood. I know that Ma Kali is not "about sex" at all.
2. "But tell me, as such an erudite student of Advaita Vedanta, I’m very intrigued to learn how your statement remains harmonious with the philosophy’s own insistence on acquiring the quality of humility..."
Two errors here:
a) I have never claimed to be an erudite student. I do not know of one anywhere on this MB. One can only try to learn, that's all. And one can only try to extend one's understanding and visualisation as far as possible. That's all I can and wish to do.
If you have got the impression that I have claimed to be more erudite than anyone else on this MB, then that is a false impression which does not become you.
b) "Philosophy's ...humility" I have been sharp and used ill-advised words like "lie". To that extent I have allowed myself to be swayed emotionally by your words, which were and are deeply hurtful to me.If I have given offence, I apologise. I regret that I have not yet reached the stage where no amount of offence can disturb my mental equilibrium by the slightest amount even for a second. But then I do not know anyon on this MB who can truly lay claim to have reached such a stage.
I do believe the absolute requirement for truth outweighs the need for humility. I do believe that
"Satyam, Shivam, Sundaram" Since you probably know what that means, I shall not offend you by my attempts at translation.
Others are free to do what they wish. I shall not even try to persuade you to change your views. Only you can do that.
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Just as a minor side-issue, and not directing this at anyone in the sense of getting involved in the humility issue. But on Truth, I don't really see that Truth, when given to the best of our knowledge, has anything to do with lacking humility. It's just, to me, a neutral action, to seek Truth or to give the best Truth that we know ...
Venetian
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Agreed Venetian.
but didn't wish to offend Roger yet again. Trying my best to avoid him.
But since you have said, I believe that when truth is faithfully and relentlessly sought, humility becomes redundant. Or pride. Or any of the six vices.
But it IS difficult.
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Namaskar Prashna
Since you ask so nicely, albeit on another thread, I shall tell just a little of the tale of how Ma Kali got hold of me: it was January 96 and I was in Kerala for the first time for a 3 week beach holiday with friends.
This was on Kovalam beach, a considerably touristy resort, but midway through the holiday the little local temple started a festival. I found myself drawn by the drumming and started spending time there. Lo and behold the presiding deity was Bhadrakali Herself. She was being taken round the village and surroundings by a kind of shaman (vallicapada) and I saw one of these gurusis when Ma is invoked to bring blessings on, in this case, a beachside restaurant. To cut a long story short I started to hang around the temple. During one long night I was unable to sleep and watched as Ma appeared huge and surrounded by flames in the palm trees outside my hotel room. My friends thought I'd gone mad. Probably I had. And have remained so. I discovered my guru there too: Mata Amritanandamayi, but didn't have her darsan until six months after my return to UK when she visited London.
That was the beginning of my journey. Or the beginning of my awareness of the journey that I must have been on in many many lifetimes...
Anyway, that's a very abridged and abbreviated account.
BTW ages ago I said somewhere that I had 'not done anything Hindu all summer' and you questioned the statement. My meaning was that during my annual six months in South India I am accustomed to visiting temples and ashrams and performing puja both there and daily in my home. In UK this doesn't happen. That was my meaning.
Hari Om
Sunanda (always full of bliss!) x
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Just thought to show you a pic of the gurusi during the Kali festival. (I'm always amazed when I succeed in ouploading a photo into apost. In fact this is a digital photo of a conventional snap but I think you can see a bit.)
Love
Sunanda xx
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
ORIGINAL: MM1942
<snip>
but didn't wish to offend Roger yet again. Trying my best to avoid him.
<snip>
hi prashna,
i know its not my business, so forgive me for sticking my nose in, but what you say here is quite likely to offend, wouldnt you say?
you said:
In my defence, I would say that I do get upset when presumably intelligent posters do not determine facts for themselves before posting what is, at best, their personal opinion. I have not known any Hindu women to be subservient to their husbands and I believe that my experience is somewhat wider than the poster who calls himself "Conspiritualist".
At my age, I simply do not have time to to explain the details to one and all to those who cannot be bothered to find out the facts for themselves before they post.
how can we learn from each other if we "dont have time to explain the details"? you have time to translate lots of poetry, i notice:D.
isnt it accepted that we all have our own truth and opinions? just my POV of course. i was just a little taken aback by your words as from my very very little knowledge of "hinduism", it seemd a tad off. 😮
roger, thanks for the translations :D. i did a google and found it very interesting.
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Thank you for reminding me rosie that I have been meaning to say to Prashna that I personally have met many Hindu wives, in India, whom I would describe as subservient to their husbands. Of course there are marriages where both partners play an equal role but in general it has seemed to me that there is usually some degree of female subservience, firstly to father and then to husband.
Love
Sunanda xxx
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
LOL, on subservience I don't even think it was Roger who wrote that?? :DIt was myself, admittedly making something of a pretty sweeping statement. ;)Still, if Roger must take the flack for it, he's surely man enough, and it's OK by me. 😀
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi rosie,
Thank you for your post.
No, I do not think so. Here is an analogy.
Suppose I am a very, very devout Christian. And Channel 4 broadcasts a programme on the sex life of Jesus Christ. I find it offensive and start writing to Ch 4 about it.
A lot of people would say, there is the stand-by button, why don't you use it?
Or why don't you change the channel?
Now if I do, would you say I am offensive to the television set?
You also wrote: "you have time to translate lots of poetry, i notice..."
I just checked the date on the oldest of my translations. It is October 1983. That's 23 years ago.
Over the years I had translated a lot of poems. Most of which are now lost.
So it is not true to assume that I translated all these this month, or this year or even this decade!
Anyway, you do not have to be put off by me much longer.
Hopefully, I would be gone by tomorrow.
All the best.
Prashna.
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Sunanda,
Thank you for sharing that story.
I know about Bhadrakali, the reference occurs in Sri Sri Chandi, (Devi Mahatmyam) 3:9, 4:39 and 11:26. I would have translated these for you but now after Rosie's admonishment, there is no need. At least you have got the references.
Here is another. A book that you can get from Ramakrishna Mission,
"Kali. the Mother. by Suster Nivedita. ISBN 81-7505-040-3.
BTW the village that I come from is dedicated to RudraKali. It's called Rudranagar, about 200 miles NNW of Kolkata. I took some pictures of RudraKali last time I went, which I hoped to upload.
That will wait.
Hope you achieve all that you seek.
Regards.
Prashna.
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
ORIGINAL:Prashna
IF you wish to go for "Prahlad Jani", why should I stop you?
BUT be very clearly advised, he/she does NOT represent MAINSTREAM HINDU beliefs. There are plenty of charlatans in this field, as in every other. You HEVE to be CAREFUL.
ORIGINAL:Prashna
I do get upset when presumably intelligent posters do not determine facts for themselves before posting what is, at best, their personal opinion. I have not known any Hindu women to be subservient to their husbands and I believe that my experience is somewhat wider than the poster who calls himself Conspiritualist".
ORIGINAL:Prashna
I find that offensive. I believe I have known about Ma Kali since childhood. I know that Ma Kali is not "about sex" at all.
ORIGINAL:Prashna
I have been sharp and used ill-advised words like "lie". To that extent I have allowed myself to be swayed emotionally by your words, which were and are deeply hurtful to me.If I have given offence, I apologise. I regret that I have not yet reached the stage where no amount of offence can disturb my mental equilibrium by the slightest amount even for a second. But then I do not know anyon on this MB who can truly lay claim to have reached such a stage.
ORIGINAL:Prashna
but didn't wish to offend Roger yet again. Trying my best to avoid him.
ORIGINAL:Prashna
Suppose I am a very, very devout Christian. And Channel 4 broadcasts a programme on the sex life of Jesus Christ. I find it offensive and start writing to Ch 4 about it.
Well I wasn’t gonna get involved again, but it seems your apology (that I’d accepted and so elected to trouble you no further) wasmorereluctant than I thought and perhaps even somewhat insincere… or so it seems now!But frankly I don’t care what you have wrongly decided are my views, I couldn’t give a Brass Hanumans’:)
However, I will attempt to tell you for the last time that you’rechoosing (perhaps mistakenly) of both misunderstanding and misrepresenting my words and my earliest post on the Kali thread… needs to stop.
I never said Kali is a sex goddess….
I never said Hindu women are subservient to their men
I am not a devotee to, nor am I a follower of the curiously interesting & ‘cross-dressing’ Prahlad Jani
Are we clear Prashna?
It seems that despite the fact that I did not say these words or imply them, (due perhaps to your inability to concentrate on the written word) you have continued to scoff pompously and feign ‘mock-shock’ at my posts… even citing a lack of intelligence and untruths that you sheepishly claim are personally hurtful to you.
I’ve asked you b
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Roger, 😉
And it's nice to hear from you too. Seriously, I am not being facetious. I do mean it.
It's a pity I had not read your profile before. Now I have, I understand you a lot better. I know that you are absolutely dedicated to truth.
Why are we at cross purposes anyway? I know that you like to seek out the truth, I know that you would not hesitate to spell it out. So if you particularly wish to prove that Ma "Kali and sex are related ", why not? Also that "on the whole, Hindu women are historically and culturally proven to be subservient to their men-folk". It would be fascinating to read your arguments. I am sure you know that any claims can shown to have some truth in them! That you would be able to demonstrate these I have no doubt. But why would you wish to do this? What would you gain?I think I would survive whatever you write, provided it is decent and honest. I am certain it would be that. But I would still feel hurt. I would like to know why you consider that to be ridiculous sympathy-eliciting-finger-pointing… If I believe deeply about Ma Kali and I feel hurt upon reading denigratory comments and say so why is it " ridiculous sympathy-eliciting-finger-pointing…
Actually, you would find that none of things that have upset you I have written about you. Except two.
1. Prahlad Jani. Now all I wrote was that he is not mainstream and there are many charlatans. Be careful. I really do not see what is wrong with that.
However, if anything in that context has hurt you, I am sorry. It was not intentional.
2. Avoiding you. Now, you will neither understand nor accept what I have to say. It's simply this.You must know that not all people in the world can be TOTALLY (sorry, about the caps. But I really am short of time) compatible with each other. There are always greater and lesser compatibilities. There are various theories to explain that. Astrology does offer one that I have found over several decades to be accurate in one specific respect. I have reason to believe that it can be useful in resolving certain personality clashes.
The rest I have reacted to venetian and Monk, not to you.
You are a fine person andI really have no problem with you. But myanalysis is that we are unlikely to be compatible.
So I am not going to waste my time trying to disprove what you have said. As far as I am concerned you have written nothing that I disagree with that much.
What little I disagree with I have stated clearly enough.
If after that you have towrite whatever you need to write, please go ahead if it would make you happy. Your happiness matters to me more than any discomfort I might feel. After all, I can balance and equalise my emotions fast enough.
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
ORIGINAL: Conspiritualist
ORIGINAL:Prashna
Please do not be so ARROGANT as toTELL Indians WHAT TO BELIEVE
I missed that one! and don't recall it.In a global community I don't see the need to emphasise anything about Indians. While nobody should "tell" others what to believe, there can be dialogue and one can suggest where one opinion or the other may be in error. "Indians" have no monopoly upon truth, and one gets the impression the nation is more and more materialistic, whereas many in the West are less so. However, it would be demeaning and ridiculous to enter into a debate about which nation is the morally superior! To even suggest it is, all the same, a mark IMO of moral weakness.
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
V, forgive me for butting in here (and not officially ;)), but the quote in your post above may have been taken a little out of context, though not by yourself.
Looking back to the previous page, I see that:
quote:
ORIGINAL:Prashna [post 22, in reply to The Monk]
Please do not be so ARROGANT as toTELL Indians WHAT TO BELIEVE
was in fact made in a post in reply to The Monk, not to Conspiritualist, and shortly before another post in which Prashna explained his use of CAPS came from the fact he had yet to familiarise himself with the othermeans of emphasis available on the board.
It also seems from Prashna's post immediately before yours (here, currently, on page 2) that he has become better acquainted with Conspiritualist, and misunderstandings are now being cleared up. This is good. I'm sure it'll last 🙂
Holistic
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Venetian,
What you wrote, I agree.
You misread my emphasis, that's all. A slight misunderstanding, for which I accept full responsibility.
My emphasis was not, is not, and never can be on the term "Indians". But you are not an Advaitin, how would you know that?
It was really on the word "tell". And that you would object to as well, I believe. Or at least that's the impression I get from your post.
Perhaps Monk had nor meant to "tell" anybody anything or make any provocative statements. If so then I am in error and I apologise.
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Ah - thanks for that, Holistic, and Prashna. Yes, as I wrote myself, since I agree, we are hardly here to 'tell' each other what to believe! 😮
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Roger,
You wrote there are “many, many interesting individuals on this forum with much wisdom to share,…”.
How true! So there are, and you know what, you are one of the best. If you think I am pulling your leg, please read on. You will find that is an art that I have not even learned, let alone mastered.
What else? May I tell you a story: [sm=sandrine.gif]
A long, long time ago, in a land far, far away, on a desolate beach…
Walked an unkempt figure, his eyes wild and downcast, his gait uncertain, his action strange, his speech slurred. For he was talking to himself. If you strained your ears you could just hear him mumble:
“khyapa (the unhinged one) searches hither and thither for his touchstone…”
Again and again he was bending down, picking up a stone with his right hand, taking it to his left hand and throwing it out. To what purpose?
If you looked closely, in his left hand you could just see two little stones. One was not gray, like the rest of stones on that stony beach. No, it was golden. Golden? No, no, no. If you held it you could drop it because it was unexpectedly heavy. For it was heavy, 8 times heavier than the other one. As heavy as solid gold, in fact. Because it WAS SOLID GOLD.[sm=FIFangel.gif]
You see khyapa had been combing that beach for many years hoping to find that touchstone that turned everything it touched into solid gold. He kept a plain stone in his left hand and kept touching that one with the one he had picked up. Needless to say, it never worked. Months and years had gone by and to avoid his disappointment he had stopped checking. Until one evening on entering his cave for supper, he found that the other stone had turned into solid gold.
He went back of course, and kept looking and looking and looking…
To this day when the winds howl, and wild storms lash the beach you can see that forlorn figure talking to himself:
“khyapa (the unhinged one) searches hither and thither for his touchstone…”
Well, I would not like to make that mistake? [sm=confused-smiley-012.gif]
I was almost going to continue in my jump across hyperspace right into the centre of that mysterious vortex you know as Kali. There are no road maps, no star charts. Not even inertial guidance, because the magneto-gravitational field of the time-space continuum itself is distorted at my destination. You see, nothing but NOTHING escapes a Black Hole. Not even light itself!
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Sunanda,
As you know everyone has a favourite place where they have left their heart. Of all the places i have been in, I can think of many where I would like to go one more time. But if I have to name one place, only one place where I have left my heart behind it would have to be Dakshineswar.
How I wish I could take you there!
But I cannot. So I shall paint this picture with words.
It's a cold evening! Cold, that is for the subtropical location that is Kolkata. The tropic of Cancer is not far away and it feels it, even in December or January.
But as the metropolis of ten million gradually settles down, as the dail commuters return in the laden cars of a hundred locomotives to leave Howrah or Sealdah station, a strange calm falls over the river Ganga. Ganga or should it be called Bhagirathi?
It doesn't really matter! For as the lights of the night spin their magical charm on the Rabindra Setu (=Bridge) a slight fog descends on the river. In that fog, let us catch the night ferry to Dakshineswar. You and I.
Slowly, ever so slowly, the lights drift past, lights give way to gloom. But it's not the gloom of despair. It's the dark of expectation. Yes, the night is dark for it's amAbasya. No moon, not even a breeze. If you strain your ears you can hear some foxes and some night birds coming to their nests.
The river slips by.
Soon. in the distance you see the outline of a spire. It comes closer. Soon you can see the twelve temples to Shiva just as clearly as you can see the lofty spire of the main temple. your heart beats a little faster, you cannot wait.
But wait you must, as the ferry trundles along its predetermined route. Yet, even that interminable route does end. You reach Dakshineswar.
You walk the few steps to to the temple entrance. You see the eager crowd, so many, yet so silent! There is an air of reverence, an air so tangible that you can almost touch. You join the queue for the Radha Krishna, then for the Ma Kali. You walk along the terrace and peer into a few of the twelve temples to Shiva. You are silent. For once, words have failed you.
You leave with heart heavy, yet full of ecstasy. You cannot understand it. It will not sink in for a few hours yet. You walk along the Vivekananda Bridge, but you cannot keep your back to that enchanting temple. It just keeps calling you back. You look back again and again and again. You cannot understand it, for you have never felt this way before. You reach the other end of the bridge and stand on the opposite shore with eyes full of longing.
You will be back!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, yesterday in the dark of the new moon, I said, you will be back!
And that is precisely what I meant. Now that it's daytime, the sun is shining and you can see for miles and across millenias of Sanatana Dharma I hope, we make our second trip to Dakshineswar. But only a brief stop this morning, for our destination is one more stop to the north along the Ganga. On the other side of the river, as it happens. We stop at Belur Math.
Our first destination is not the Mission itself. No, no, no! Now that it's no longer pitch dark, we can saunter lazily across the panchabati (Mods, please note this means five trees, please do not delete). The place is eerily quiet. Even 140 years after Ramakrishna first walked this desolate wood, it lies desolate. For it is the sacred site of the burning of dead bodies. If you have ever taken a boat ride in the evening on the Ganga in Varanasi, and seen the magic of the Dashashyamedh Ghat, you will know what I mean. If not, then that delight awaits you.
We walk, and pause and reflect. What thoughts must have gone through the mind of Ramakrishna as he walked the same footsteps as we walk today? What caused him to lose consciousness and go into samadhi (Mods please note: this means a superconscious state, please do not delete) again and again as he walked these cherished paths? We cannot even begin to feel what that uniqu
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Thank you Prashna. One day I will follow in your footsteps and experience Daksineswar for myself.
I have sailed on Ma Ganga at Varanasi at dawn and in the evening. I have seen the burning ghats. They even let me into the Viswanath temple (after weeks of petitioning). I found peace and stillness at the Anandamayi Ma ashram in Varanasi.
I meant to tell you some time ago that I have the little book on Ma Kali written by Sister Nivedita. In Almora I visited her little house and climbed the hill at Kasar Devi to see the temple where SwamiVivekananda meditated. I have also been to the island at Kanyakumari....and just writing all this I am struggling not to be overcome with sadness that I cannot be in India now, as I usually am.
With love
sunanda
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Sunanda,
I am glad you got in to the Viswanath temple. I tried to get my friend in (an English VERY gentle man, a brahmin if I ever saw one) but could not. That will remain my regret.
But I must say that the shrine inside greatly disappointed me.
I enjoyed far more the boat ride on the Ganga, and the sight of the Dasaswamedh Ghat and the other ghats in the dark of night. That I could and did take my friend on.
One other site I most heartily recommend in Varanasi, the Buddhist Math on the other side. And also the Venaras Hindu University, of course.
I have the Ma Kali book by Sister Nivedita also. Excellent.
Also get the Amar Chitra Katha booklet, Tales of Durga, that I mentioned.
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Sunanda,
I would really like to know your view of the inside of the "Viswanath" temple.
You already know my view. So you know that nothing that you can possibly write about it, can offend me. Personally, I would only go in again, if they appointed me as head pujari, in which case I would make sweeping changes. Or if they paid me, very handsomely indeed, just to go in and write a review, in which case I can donate the proceeds to a Ramakrishna Mission in Dakshineswar.
Now, it might help others to provide some more info about the book you mentioned. And in that spirit, I offer the following:
The book is called "Kali, the Mother" by Sister Nivedita, ISBN 81-7505-040-3. It IS available from Amazon-UK at about £0.99 + postage. Here is a link:
[link= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kali-Mother-Sister-Nivedita/dp/8175050403/sr=1-4/qid=1165322608/ref=sr_1_4/202-1800308-1956605?ie=UTF8&s=books ]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kali-Mother-Sister-Nivedita/dp/8175050403/sr=1-4/qid=1165322608/ref=sr_1_4/202-1800308-1956605?ie=UTF8&s=books[/link]
It is an extremely useful book indeed, as it is written by a Westerner who had the EXCEPTIONAL good fortune to learn at the feet of the masters.
The other short booklets by her that you might wish to explore are:
"Cradle tales of Hinduism" - I bought several copies of this to help my own children and any others who mught be interested.
"Religion and Dharma" and
"Swamiji and his message".
In addition of course, there is the "Complete Works of Sister Nivedita" which is a bit of a mountain to climb.
Now back to the topic in question ie the Ma Kali booklet.
I made a note on my copy many years ago, which I reproduce here to help others:
Pages 20/1, 34/5, 53, 64/5, 67, 71, 73 and 105-110 are particularly illuminating. For those pages alone, you might wish to get this booklet for Christmas.
Thank you Sunanda, for mentioning that invaluable booklet.
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi all,
Purely out of interest, Iwent through everypostfrom the very beginning of the thread.
I would like to make what connections I can to shedwhat light I can on this complex subject.
Forst, the trifling matter of Kali. As yet, I have not found any accurate account of her self. So allow me to recount what pityfully little I know.
The Story of Kali appears in a Sanskrit text called Shri Shri Chandi (in West Bengal) or Devi Mahatmyam (In South India and possibly in other parts of India. In seven hundred slokas (hence the title, Shaptashati Chandi), exactly as in Srimad Bhagabat Gita, it tells the exploits of Shri Shri Chandi. There are specific procedures of pre-reading and post-reading to be followed, with which I shall not bore you.
The book goes through various time periods in which the mysterious entity Shri Shri Chandi is invoked at various times of crises. One of these involve the period when the demon Mahishasura blessed with a boon from Shiva, defeats all the gods and starts a reign of absolute tyranny. The gods approach the trio, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva for a solution. Then the energies of ALL the gods and goddesses combine to form Shri Durga, one transient form of Shri Shri Chandi.All equip her with a special weapon from each, the thunderbolt from Indra, the Lion from Himalaya and so on.Over several days of fierce battle the asura morphed several times, discarding the previous mortally wounded form each time. Finally the asura took its most fierce form, a Mahish. Durga severed its head with one sweep if her scimitar. Then from the severed neck of the mahish, the asuraemerged in its final formof a man. Durga piercedhis heartwith her trident as he only HALF-EMERGED (ardha-nishkranta).
Then the asura began to sing chants of prayer to Durga and she blessed him before he died.
Durga vanished shortly thereafter.
The story of Kali comes much later in the book.
A pair asuras, brothers shumbha and nishumbha, again empowered by divine boon, began their reign of terror. Again the gods and goddesses approached the trio. Again Shri Shri Chandi took form out of nothing.
She was matchless in beauty and was just walking in the field (later to become the battlefield). Needless to say the asuras wanted her for reasons best left to the imagination.
They sent for her. She declined. They sent their troops to drag her by the hair. She made mincemeat of the troops. In came nishumbha. Fierce battle. Nishumbha dead. Shumbha was furious. He came himself to sort out this upstart. Fierce battle. There for the first and ONLY time appears Kali.
There was this commander of the asuras, called raktabija. Now raktabija was special. If anybody tried to kill him, as each drop of blood dropped to the ground ANOTHER Raktabija sprang up. Soon there were thousands and millions of Raktabijas. It was a bit like a virus multiplying out of control.
So Shri Shri Chandi generatd Kali and asked her to sort out Raktabija while she took on Shumbha. Hence the description of kali.
Dangstra karalabadane mundamala bibhusane.
With a gaping mouth, brows knitted in fierce scowl,
Adorned with a garland of freshly severed skulls.
For body covering she hada row offreshly severed hands
Nicely knitted in the form of a skirt.
Charming, isn't she?
Well she started slashing the Raktabijas one after another. But not a drop of blood reached the ground.
You see, as each was beheaded, kali simply sucked up
all the blood from the severed neck until none was left.
Good drinker, you must admit!
Soon there were no Raktabijas left.
Shri Shri
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi all,
If my last post sounds a bit frivolous, I can assure you there is nothing frivolous about Kali. She eats entire armies for breakfast, so I read. If I sound as lacking in reverence, be assured that is not the case. There is hardly any time to revere someone who chopped off the heads of asuras Chanda and Munda, and presented the still-bleeding severed heads to Shri Shri Chandi. Then Shri Shri Chandi gave her the name ChAmundA. You don't revere such an entity, you just get out of her way; and fast.
Anyway some serious references for anyone interested:
Shri Shri Chandi or Devi Mahatmyam
Chapter 7 Sloka 6 covers the generation of Kali.
Chapter 8 prologue, describes her as having FOUR habds, equipped with pAsh, ankush (spear?), purnaChAp (skull topped staff?), and shara(arrows). As always, there is always abhaya in one hand of each and every idol or pratima, and Kali is no exception.
Chapter 10 slokas 5-8 cover the dematerialisation of Kali.
As to why and how Kali became Ma Kali, that is another story or at least another post!
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Thank you Prashna for bringing Ma to the forefront of my mind as I sit in an internet cafe in Stamford Hill. (She pops up at the most amazing times!) I am not offended by your frivolity - She invokes that in me too sometimes.
I am very excited because I am going to get to India after all this winter, if only for a few weeks, and will be able to participate in the Bhadrakali festival in Kovalam. It was this festival in 1996 when Ma first sunk her claws in me - and I'm happy to report that she hasn't let go yet.
I just noticed that you asked for my impressions of the Viswanath temple in Varanasi. Well, after trying to get in for three weeks I was a little stunned when I finally made it. Thankfully I was fairly well versed in temple etiquette and had some change and small notes ready - not enough as it turned out because every priest, without exception, demanded R100 from me, in spite of the fact that I could see that the Indian devotees were putting one rupee coins on the tray. Well, I was uncowed and gave the first one a piece of my mind together with R5 and then took the rest rather with a pinch of salt, as it were. Needless to say I was not overly impressed with the spirituality of the temple! In fact, I much preferred the nearby Anapurna temple, with its forlorn group of widows outside. (The Goddess gets my vote every time, it would seem!)
Ah I'm getting lost in the memories now...when I should be present to the moment....
With love
Sunanda
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi Sunanda,
Thank you for that response. I note that you were not overly impressed with the Viswanath temple innards, once you got in. Nor was I, as I stated already. So if any of you have difficulty getting in there, take it from us, you are NOT missing much.
As for the apparent frivolity, you must have noticed that deities are not impersonal and distant entities to be revered in India. Oh no.
Ma Durga is seen as a mother and a daughter. Lakshmi, Saraswati, Ganesh and Kartik, deoties in their own right are regarded in a much more homely way as the family of Ma Durga. That's how realisation starts among Hindus.
Good luck with your trip. I am looking forward to spending a lot of timewith our boys as they come home over the Christmas period. A very rare privilege for my wife and me, of course.
Regards.
Prashna
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
ORIGINAL: Prashna
Lakshmi, Saraswati, Ganesh and Kartik, deoties in their own right are regarded in a much more homely way as the family of Ma Durga. That's how realisation starts among Hindus.
Mind you, is this realisation, when the named deities are probably unreal as actual individual beings? Some are mythical, some like Santoshi Ma are known to be invented by the recent media, and others are actually perhaps not the names of beings, but of energies, such as in higher or spiritual physics? (I don't believe in a spiritual man-elephant, or Hanuman, for example ... )
But you do say "starts". It may be a beginning, but I question its usefulness. There's a lot of darkness and devravityin India too, and maybe the West is needed to shed real enlightenment back to India.
V
RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism
Hi venetian,
I shall try to address individually the points you raised:
1. "is this realisation, when the named deities are probably unreal as actual individual beings? " I think the analogy used by R is appropriate here. Jnana yoga is not for everyone. In fact it is for very few, indeed. For most, Bhakti is a much easier route.
Bhakti needs an object of devotion. Sanatana Dharma gives a choice. For some, it may be Kali, for others Krishna, or Rama, or even Hanuman. It's irrelevant really which one it is. You can either take the explanation that all are different aspects of the same one Infinite.
Or regard these as intermediate stages, crutches to be discarded as realisation deepens.
2. "mythical, some like Santoshi Ma are known to be invented by the recent media..." I am not familiar with that particular case. But I am aware that a lot of deception perhaps even fraud goes on. That is simple dishonesty and I have no further comment to make.
3. "I don't believe in a spiritual man-elephant, or Hanuman,..." It's only a story, a mythology to illustrate certain concepts. Ramayana is not one of the three central texts in Sanatana Dharma.
4. "It may be a beginning, but I question its usefulness. " All journeys need to start somewhere, or not at all. And yes, some starts will be false starts. That is inevitable. The only person who never makes a mistake is the one who never tries.
5. "There's a lot of darkness and depravityin India too..." Naturally and inevitably.
Is there any human society which is completely free from all darkness and depravity?
6 "maybe the West is needed to shed real enlightenment back to India. " We can and indeed should try to learn from each other. "No man is an island...."
Regards.
Prashna