Devotion and Love in Hinduism

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: sunanda

Dear David

God wasn't present IMHO in punk head-banging, nor in the NT dance of Samome

Oh but there is nowhere that God is not. IMHO;);)

I don't think you gals are getting me. Existence is God. Matter is God. Yes. But God as energy or matter can be misused. To correct my typo above, I was referring to Salome's dance - deliberately done to inflame the ruler so that she could then ask for John the Baptist's head. God's energy is everywhere but can be inverted, turned upside down, and abused.

I'm just reading how tens of thousands died in one day on a battlefield in WWI, in a dreadful way. Mown down like grass. God was there too but IMHO it wasn't right or His Will.

V xxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi David

You said:

I'm just reading how tens of thousands died in one day on a battlefield in WWI, in a dreadful way. Mown down like grass. God was there too but IMHO it wasn't right or His Will.

and this feels like deja vu because I'm sure we've had this discussion before. IMHO NOTHING can happen that is not God's will. If it happened, it happened for a reason, one that we may never be able to fathom. From what I have come to believe, I would say that, as there is no death, these men did not die. That it was their time to leave this earthly existence, which is just a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things, and move on to the next level. If there is no death, then there is no reason to question whether or not God was there or if it was right. Everything is God. God is always right. But that is just my take on it....one day we'll meet on a soul level when we've both left these impermanent shells that we call bodies, and then we'll know the truth and enjoy it for a while before we come back and start again.

Much love, as always
Sunanda xxxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi Sunanda,

Your last post is not at all off-topic in fact as here we have a war again just as in the Gita - and what is right? How to act?

The Gita, some say, doesn't support pacificism (others say it does!). But on God's Will I don't recall a former discussion.

My take, in brief, is that God's Will is Good, and only Good. But part of the 'Plan' is to give humans free will with the intention we'll use it also for Good and hence grow. Therefore war, murder, anger, (head-banging maybe!) are not God's Will but the taking and misusing of His energy.

We'll return to this topic when both 'up there' and sort out who's right! 😀

Betcha I win.... (If I do, YOU have to play the harp for a year while I lay back and listen).

Venetian xxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: sunanda

I would say that, as there is no death, these men did not die. That it was their time to leave this earthly existence,

But there's a Life-Plan and karma intended to be worked out in this life. Thus evil works (murder, war, drunk driving) can remove people from Earth before they'd done what they were here to do IMO. There is no ultimate death but there is 'death' in that sense - you have to come back all over, and with the scars of the pain of the previous warlike and painful death.

Of course the Gita goes into this, on the battlefield, but are the comments on war just allegorical? Or are they just saying that Arjuna really was in the right and had to restore Good and Cosmic Balance - in fact the Gita does mean that.

(The book is Birdsong - fiction but much rooted in fact that I'm reading BTW.)

V xxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: venetian

But there's a Life-Plan and karma intended to be worked out in this life. Thus evil works (murder, war, drunk driving) can remove people from Earth before they'd done what they were here to do IMO. There is no ultimate death but there is 'death' in that sense - you have to come back all over, and with the scars of the pain of the previous warlike and painful death.

Of course the Gita goes into this, on the battlefield, but are the comments on war just allegorical? Or are they just saying that Arjuna really was in the right and had to restore Good and Cosmic Balance - in fact the Gita does mean that.

(The book is Birdsong - fiction but much rooted in fact that I'm reading BTW.)

V xxx

This is a very interesting topic and maybe we should start a different thread for it is so important for people to explore it.

A dear friend, her son was recently brutally murdered knifed by two other young men. It is one thing to lose a child but something else to know that they were murdered, this made me question my faith at the time. I had watched this child grow into a man of 28, it seemed like such a waste of human life.

Yet we had the most amazing message from him, he said it was karma and all was meant to be. A wonderful indepth message that we received from him for individuals in the family. He found the energy of planet earth oppressive and was so happy to be liberated ftom it. He was also so excited about going to the hall of learning, he was just so happy! His final words were 'yes the Goddess is true' I had no idea that he had been interested in such things as I had not seen him in recent years.

On the Gita it is clear to me that it is not literal but all about the battle between the human self and divine self the battlefield being the physical plane. Surrendering control etc etc absolutely nothing to do with the word war in its literal sense.

being love

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

cooeee... just adding my humble thoughts... 😉

so... my understanding, limited mind you, is that we have this big chat about our life choice for the next time before we do come back, so... maybe those killed in acts like war, "knew" that this would be their karma and accepted it on that basis?

as for punk head bangers... tsk tsk, V... its just a way of expressing themselves and some of the music was good!

birdsong... not read it myself but those i know who have, have wowed about it. try charlotte grey too, WW2...

haha... can you imagine... us all having a right old gos "up there" with sunanda entertaining us with her harp playing.... remind me not to make any bets with you, V... i dont know if i'll like the consequences! 😀

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Gosh, you've all been writing so much. It's hard work keeping up with you folks! Here's the first of a few . . .

ORIGINAL: venetian
Before Bollywood music and dance in Hinduism wasn't really those things at all. They were both completely ritualistic - at least music was, I know. It wasn't, in other words, directly anything to do with entertainment, fun, letting go, etc.

Not sure I'd agree about the bit on lack of entertainment and fun. The stories about Krishna's childhood talk about him playing garba dance with his gopi friends. The image is of Krishna enchanting hearts and minds with his flute, such that even the cows they were hurding were entranced. Garba still takes place these days in northern parts of India during the festival of Navrathri.

ORIGINAL: venetian
In fact it's only a few centuries ago that music was ever really played outside of temples.

I wasn't aware of this. Why do you reckon this was so? To my feeling (as opposed to my knowledge), there's a strong tradition of song in Hindu culture. For example, prior to a bride getting married all the local ladies and family would get together and sing songs whilst painting her hands and feet with mendhi (henna). There would be songs of sorrow as the bride was taken away by her husband. If what you're saying is correct then I wonder where the Indian national obsession for songs come from? This is a country where playback singers such as Lata Mangeshkar are revered almost as deities for the angelic sweetness of their voices.

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: sunanda
PS I too love Santoshi Maa, First heard about her in Roger Housden's book on Sacred India.
Cub - I get a big smile on my face when I think of her. 

She's great, isn't she? 🙂 She's got the severity of Kali with those who cross her path, but the gentleness of a mother. I can see why she became a favourite of shy newly wed daughters. I wonder if there was a folk tale like knowledge of her in some communities before a story was made about her on film. We shall never know the true genesis . . .

Eek! it's my bed time. I'll come back to you all at the weekend on some other thoughts.

Cub, xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

On the Gita it is clear to me that it is not literal but all about the battle between the human self and divine self the battlefield being the physical plane. Surrendering control etc etc absolutely nothing to do with the word war in its literal sense.

Pandits and scholars in Hinduism would be near to agreeing with you. The war is used as allegory in the Gita. But it's not only about the divine "vs." human self. An important theme of the Gita (see my article at top) is on duty and how doing what is your Dharma in life can sometimes be OK irrespective of how it outwardly looks. Mind you, this was a political theme of the time as the author(s) were also trying to reinforce the caste system.

So it's not "about" war, right. However, a good percentage of Hindus would say that war, with everything in life, comes into it - that it can be correct to fight if it's in defence against an oppressor. So there's a split between the pacifist view of it (Gandhi's) and the other.

V

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi Cub,

Yes, I overstated on music in India - I really was thinking of 'classical' Indian music, not song. All peoples have song.

I got that from Roop Verma, sitar player, a direct disciple of Ravi Shankar, whom I spenta few days with. During that time some told him they thought he was better than Ravi but in humility he didn't make a gesture in reply. Roop really seemed to know his stuff so I believed him, and have also read it. What is now the raga developed from temple music (which was more mystical and not so flamboyant as ragas with all their duets to cater to the crowds at concerts).

A bit off-topic, but just to explain that though Roop Verma learned largely from Ravi S, Ravi is in the "modern" category of doing flamboyant (relatively) ragas, with the 4 movements and the exciting end, etc.

Roop has taken things back to before classical Hindu music came out of the temples. He typically has no "movements" and it's just a wave of sound from all players which I can't really describe in text. So I was referring to this - the temple music started getting a bit of ego wrapped up in it - "Let's see how clever we can look" - and eventually ended up played in various places and to make money (money once wasn't amde from it - the musicians were like priests, "kept" by the temple or sect.

Mind you, all this is not to say I don't like ragas today - especially female vocal ones, one of my fave types of music in the world.

V

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: venetian

An important theme of the Gita (see my article at top) is on duty and how doing what is your Dharma in life can sometimes be OK irrespective of how it outwardly looks. So it's not "about" war, right. However, a good percentage of Hindus would say that war, with everything in life, comes into it - that it can be correct to fight if it's in defence against an oppressor. So there's a split between the pacifist view of it (Gandhi's) and the other.

V

I agree David. It is interesting to view the root word of 'war' and its meanings of 'confusion, conflict, contention' see other thread on inter-faith. Also interesting to me in the past spirit have asked me to 'resolve my difficulty with a situation' e.g. find a resolution to it within myself through forgiveness, zero judgement and/or unconditional love which brings us back to love and the title of your thread. Can we ask ourselves has GOD ever asked us to pick up a weapon of destruction or to do harm to another? No, never! Which brings us back to man's own consciousness and enemy thinking creating the enemy.

Is it not possible that the Gita is teaching people the Dharma to help them come to a peaceful resolution with their own confusion, conflicts and conflicts with others? By surrendering to their own divinity instead of picking up a weapon of destruction?

I looked for the roots of the words 'kill' and 'death' both ending a situation yet once again it comes back to intepretation and how we choose to resolve things in our own minds and hearts. Also how humanity wishes to use words to support its own darkness within, instead of living by the universal laws and creating harmony through the heart of communication and acheiving balance.

'Let thy actions then be pure, free from the bonds of desire', and this is 'the path of Karma Yoga, the path of consecrated action' (Mascaró ibid., 3: 7, 9).

Now can we say that using weapons of destruction are actions that are coming from pure intent?

Can we say that war as we understand it in modern terms is free from bonds of desire?

My heart of GOD says that war/fighting is not the path of Karma Yoga, the path of consecrated action.

Gandhi is a wonderful example of 'Be the change we wish to see in the world'.

being love

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Now taking this a stage further

(15.05) "Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal." The Bhagavad-Gita

Are those that seek to go to war not in the attachment and attachment to an outcome?

Would an enemy/negative thinker who has not integrated the Dharma of the Gita respond/choose to ‘resolve the difficulties’ by picking up weapons of destruction which is in complete opposition to religuishing pride (national and personal pride) ?

It is obvious to me that these people are still living in attachment to the physical realm and the delusion of duality.

being love

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

Now can we say that using weapons of destruction are actions that are coming from pure intent?

Hi Kim,

A few points, beginning again with the fact that there are different views on the Gita, I don't pretend to have all the answers, and since the Gita was written in a political climate, the Gita itself may have wrong attitudes about dharma (trying to maintain the caste system).

But I think different actions are sometimes called for in different situations. I agree that Gandhi was great and right to help resolve the Indian situation with pacifism. I don't think pacifism is always the answer however.

The Gita itself takes place within the Mahabarahta, which as a whole is an account of how consciousnesses which would disrupt Cosmic Harmony, seeking power from ego-desire,and God's Plan in this physical world (and beyond), had to be countered and overcome by those who remained in accord with God.

Would you forgive me if I say that pacifism is a subject that comes up from time to time in life, and I've discussed it so many times that I'm weary of it, and not interested in going deeply into the subject, or even at all. Everybody can just keep the views they have. But I try to make the most extreme example possible to demonstrate why I don't agree with total pacifism in all cases...

Suppose an Army led by a man just like Hitler, as evil as the Nazis, had overcome Europe and tortured and raped everyone there, and they wanted to invade Britain. Just supose that they were advancing down the channel tunnel on foot or whatever. Suppose a huge bomb had been planted in the tunnel and the alien forces were already around it, but you were the one person in the tunnel near the button who could press it. If you press it, a few thousand men are killed and the tunnel is closed for good. If you don't press it, 60 million people in Britain will be raped and tortured to death. That's an extreme example of course, but in such a case I wouldn't hesitate. Of course we've all seen even recently examples of "righteous wars" which were not at all, but sometimes I do believe there can be righteous violence, under God's Will. WWII for example. It's much the situation Arjuna faces.

But as said, I'm weary of the subject over years of it coming up ;)so don't want to go into a whole sub-thread on it, myself.

Venetian xxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

So with devotion and love let us refer back to the Gita David.

Krishna said,"Do your duty, Arjun, as your nature dictates. All work fetters, as all fire gives smoke. Only selfless duty saves. Fix your mind on me. Surrender all deeds to me. All problems will be solved by my grace. Pride will lead only to your moral ruin. If, filled with pride, you say, 'I will not fight,' it is all in vain. You are foolish. Fight you will, your nature will make you fight. Your karma will make you fight. You will fight in spite of yourself."
-Mahabharata, Book Six: Bhishma (P. Lal)

Here Krishna is understanding human weakness is he not and asking for Ajuna to surrender all to the Grace of GOD.

The Blessed Lord said: You are grieving over those who are not fit to be grieved for, yet you speak words like a great man of wisdom. But the wise do not grieve neither over the living nor over the dead. Never did I not exist, nor did you nor these kings. Nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future.
-Bhagavad Gita 2.11 and 2.12

Would he say this about a world war?

Life without Krishna has no joy for me. Tell me what is good for me. I am a wanderer with a hollow heart.
-Mahabharata, Book Sixteen: The Battle With Clubs

This message is interesting to me as just like week I was given 'A woman that is barren has nothing to give' I understand this to mean those without GOD in their heart are barren. The seed of love has not grown. The seed of love cannot grow without fertile soil.

Arjun chose Krishna, though Krishna had vowed to lay down his arms on the battlefield ...
... Krishna asked: "Why did you pick me, knowing I would not fight?"
-Mahabharata, Book Five: War Preparations(P.Lal)

O Arjun, the scorcher of your foes, it is by single minded devotion alone that I can be known, seen in reality, and also entered into. O Son of Pandu, he who performs actions for Me, who considers Me as the Supreme Goal, who is My devotee, and is devoid of attachments; who is without animosity towards all living beings, he alone attains Me.
-Bhagavad Gita 11.54 and 11.55

Deciding to surrender himself to whatever Krishna advised, Arjun said,"O Krishna, I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure due to weakness of heart. Surely I am being consumed by miserly and selfish considerations, but I am not able to overcome them. In this condition I ask you to please tell me what is best for me. Now I am your disciple and a soul surrendered unto you. Please instruct me. I can see no means to drive away this grief. Even winning a prosperious kingdom equal to that of the gods will not assuage my sorrow. O Govinda, I will not fight."
-Mahabharata, Book Six: Bhishma(Krishna Dharma)

Krishna now smiled more broadly. he was pleased that Arjun, his dear friend, was ready to accept him as teacher and guide. Holding up his hand in blessing, he said, "Although you are speaking learned words from the scriptures, you are still mourning for something unworthy of grief. A wise man laments neither for the living nor the dead. Both you, I and all these assembled kshatriyas have always existed and will always exist. We are eternal souls, passing from body to body.
-Mahabharata, Book Six: Bhishma(Krishna Dharma)

He who sees me in all things, and all things in me, is never far from me, and I am never far from him.
-Lord Krishna from Chapter 6, Bhishma(P. Lal); also part of Bhagavad Gita

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Now my view is that if we were teaching children these virtues and core values of devotion, love and surrender to the heart of GOD then world wars and war and fighting would never happen, for they would gain no support from man. Hence we have to be the change we wish to see in the world.

being love

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

Surrender all deeds to me. All problems will be solved by my grace. Pride will lead only to your moral ruin. If, filled with pride, you say, 'I will not fight,' it is all in vain. You are foolish. Fight you will, your nature will make you fight. Your karma will make you fight. You will fight in spite of yourself."
-Mahabharata, Book Six: Bhishma (P. Lal)

Here Krishna is understanding human weakness is he not and asking for Ajuna to surrender all to the Grace of GOD.

Yes, exactly. But here the human weakness is NOT wanting to fight. It's his dharma at that time to do it. "Karma" here isn't in the negative context, more like dharma.

But the wise do not grieve neither over the living nor over the dead. Never did I not exist, nor did you nor these kings. Nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future.
-Bhagavad Gita 2.11 and 2.12

Would he say this about a world war?

Well, I'm not Krishna. But from all else he's written as saying (which I don't believe 'Krishna' said, but others wrote this as a song), about a world war he'd say (1) It shouldn't happen, it's a tragedy; (2) If an evil empire DOES begin one, then resist, and indeed we never really cease to exist. I've often thought that's where I last came to a so-called end. But here I am again.

On your other post, I doubt right now that all children would grow up as saints if taught those principles, but it would help a lot. However the problem in RE is that it cannot be what is called "confessional" - that actually means "preaching" or like a Hindu pandit or Christian minister teaching RE from their perspective. Because they don't see objectively, are seeking often to convert, and are often not objective about facts etc. Therefore RE in the UK anyway has become "academic". But there's still much room there for moral arguments to be raised.

The US response to RE's problem in state schools of being to "convert" and sway children, sadly, has been to ban RE from state schools. The UK basically leads the world in its approach to RE.

But there's room for spiritual schools outside the state schools of course, or Sunday School, etc.

Even more off-topic, but here are some surprising statistics. The world wars were not shaped in terms of casualties as many people think. First WWI:

[link= http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWdeaths.htm ]http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWdeaths.htm[/link]

Remember that was "the war to end all wars". 20 years later we got:

[link= http://www.hitler.org/ww2-deaths.html ]http://www.hitler.org/ww2-deaths.html[/link]

I looked those up since I'm reading the incredibly moving "Birdsong" by Sebastian Faulks.

V

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

It is not about conversion or preaching to me. It is about children growing up in an holistic culture. Children learn what they live and my view is that we are promoting the power of love more and more which is imperative for perfect health and world peace.
The principles that we are discussing here can be shared and lived from the day that they are born.

My own son is no saint! However, he lives a life of non-violence and in tune with his GOD self because this is what he lived in the environment in which he grew up. Being true to himself a free spirit living in harmony with the universe.

If only education could take this on board

"Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart. '
Mohandas Gandhi

I really must get on with some other work now. Thank you David for helping me to clarify further my thoughts and feelings about the Gita and its great value to humanity.

being love

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

On RE, Kim, I was just giving a real thumb-nail sketch of the heated debate that's been going on since about 1965 - 40 years. RE used to be Christianity only and often done by devout Christians. You'd get the stuff sometimes about the world being 6,000 years old or whatever.

In the 60s the debate opened up about teaching other major religions too, and this happened. Then in the 80s another change. Since then the emphasis has been on not "teaching facts at" children, but allowing them into the discussion, and letting them think for themselves about the religions covered.

There's great political strife about how RE should be taught in the UK. The academics want it as it is now; but there's a strong Christian element working through MPs who try to get it all back to 1960 through Parliament. It's a tug of war the academics are always just winning. So I was just mentioning all that.

V

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Yes I understand I don't envy you one bit! However, I am sure that your classes will be stimulating to say the least. 😉

I think its great if RE can be multi-cultural and inter-faith perhaps RE could be called comparative religion. I feel each main scripture has a very powerful and important piece of the jigsaw puzzle and when we allow people to put them all together WOW what a whole!

After all when we teach geography we don't just teach about one country! Or in history about one nation so what do the elite and church fear? Freedom I guess. 😀

So much seems to be proposed at the moment from what I read front page news this week it looked like floodgates were opening up in education at last giving choice back to the people. You are probably arriving at just the right time! 😉

being love

Kim xx

PS Yes I also read somewhere that they are trying to bring in a bill so that one cannot say or write anything adverse about any religion publicly! Smells of the Orwell state again! Just imagine it could be slander or libel for speaking against a specific religion, a criminal act indeed! You really would think they have enough to police already!:D

Have you ever been to the religion museum in Glasgow it is a real treat and great for children to visit and experience the diversity of all of the religions.