Devotion and Love in Hinduism

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear Venetian and how does this fit with these verses from the Gita.

(5.17) "They, whose mind and intellect are absorbed in the Self, who remain firmly attached with the Self, who have Self as their supreme goal, whose sins (or impurities) have been destroyed by the knowledge, do not take birth again.

(5.24) "One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana.

(6.08) "A yogi is called Self-realized who is satisfied with knowledge and understanding of the Self, who is equanimous, who has control over the (mind and) senses, and to whom a clod, a stone, and gold are the same.

(15.05) "Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal."
The Bhagavad-Gita

Like all scripture is there not contradiction or is it our intepretation different in context?

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi Kim,

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar
Dear Venetian and how does this fit with these verses from the Gita
....<snip>.......
Like all scripture is there not contradiction or is it our intepretation different in context?

Love beyond measure
Kim xx

I don't understand the problem or the question frankly; as the Gita clearly explains what is meant by the term "Self”… so I see no real problem (as you seem to imply) as there is no contradiction and no need to put it down to interpretation either.

Hi 'V',

What a thoroughly good read mate! 😀
Your notes & thoughts on Bhakti were thought provoking and I consider the 'Bhakti' tradition to be from the earliest stages in the 'Hindu' tradition.
This is perhaps off topic, but I feel that this 'Bhakti' tradition permeated through many many cultures throughout the East and may even have influenced thought further a field (as I slightly elude to in Kim's discussion on Sufis [link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=76028 ]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/tm.asp?m=76028[/link])perhaps even had a hand in Christian belief?!

Your excellent post has made me want to get my hands on a copy of Ramakrishna's 'Gospel' soon, I like very much the thought that these were not the learned thoughts of a well read 'Hindu' intellectual but rather the lived in 'experience' of a 'do-er'; after all, the 'Hindu' theory of reaching 'God' is based on a man living through his respective 'ages & duties' finally settling on the right time to spend the rest of his life seeking communion with the 'one'.

I would very much like to know what your thinking is on the concept of Dharma and how it integrates into Karma and the way one lives one's life?
Rgds,
Roger

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

hi v,

thanks for sharing that work with us. i enjoyed reading it... i "think" i understood it ;).

interestingly, some of the points from the other thread (nirvana/ clear/ moksha) were addressed... for me at any rate. the story of the suicide, for instance... that would fit.

so thanks, mate... good work!

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Roger,

I know you have some form of Eastern background andI am particularly interested in the reaction of true Hindus to this, rather than Westerners such as myself who have just 'read the books'. Yes, I know you are a Londoner etc., :Dbut all the same...

ORIGINAL: Conspiritualist

Your notes & thoughts on Bhakti were thought provoking and I consider the 'Bhakti' tradition to be from the earliest stages in the 'Hindu' tradition.

I should come clean.I was putting forth the thesis that Love and Devotion is the essence and core of all spiritual practice. That was just a thesis as in "Then discuss it". In truth I actually believe that knowledge and wisdom is essential too. You can be devotional for aeons yet not really touch base with the Source. All the same, Ramakrishna, I am certain, knew this, and was telling the people around him what they really, for themselves, did need to hear at that time.

Your excellent post has made me want to get my hands on a copy of Ramakrishna's 'Gospel' soon,

I can't tell you how much I recommend it! Either the whole thing or an abridged version. One of my top ten books. It is just simply stunning! Thing is, it doesn't even relate just to Hindus, but R's words relate to anyone on a true spiritual Path.

I would very much like to know what your thinking is on the concept of Dharma and how it integrates into Karma and the way one lives one's life?

I've got to rush off and be busy. This is a deep question! Maybe we can keep it in mind for a thread in days to come?

V

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hello David,

I enjoyed reading that, thank you.

Love,
Patsy.
😀

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear Roger if you read the verses and compare them you will understand the question.;)

And as you mention the Sufi's may I add the wonderful Sufi quote 'I was looking for the self and I found GOD and when I found GOD I found the self.' That sums up my own experience and not something that is achieved by reading scripture or books! 😉

Although Venetian is correct it does take immense devotion and love.

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Just a quick P.S. to my post to Roger.

It may seem strange that I should write a thing on Love and Devotion and then disavow it! If it reads that way, it's not what I meant. Very briefly, I mean that Love and Devotion alone are too IMHO wooly - you don't get total union (maybe, and maybe I am wrong!) from Love alone. Imean, I'm thinking in terms of a genuine person who might go to church five times a week, or in Hinduism do a daily puja. I don't think it's enough.

There's a need for technique - a need for a scientific technique to be applied. Spirituality at its highest levels is a kind of a scince and does require conscious technique, whatever it may be. BUT technique is "dry" and leads nowhere without the motive being one of Love - to God and to fellow man/woman. I am certain that the Gita nad R mean this - that you apply technique, but that the motive must always be one of love.

Love and devotion, then, are the same thing here as motive - it's the motive behind any technique that counts. (By technique, I think for example of pranayama and things such as Kriya - it's hard for me at least to imagine that they lead anywhere good if there isn't a motivation of Love and Devotion behind them...)

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

hi v,

i see where you're coming from on that (i think).

you gotta want to do it, for it to be effective and real. anyone can "learn" something and then apply that knowledge, but without the love or wanting behind it, its really just going through the motions...

like dancing... you can tell the ones who love to dance and those that just learn a routine.

you got to be "into" it.

(hope i am not off base here!)

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

I mean that Love and Devotion alone are too IMHO woolly you don't get total union (maybe, and maybe I am wrong!) from Love alone.

Is supreme divine love so difficult for us to integrate, is it so hard for man to totally surrender control and move the energy into the heart of divine love? The Gita is without doubt the most proficient text on the struggle between the human and divine self. It is only through total surrender that the total union is attained. So that brings us to how much love is necessary to totally surrender? Love beyond measure every day, every thought, every word that is written and every deed that is carried out.

I mean, I'm thinking in terms of a genuine person who might go to church five times a week, or in Hinduism do a daily puja. I don't think it's enough.

Is this what some call Love and Devotion? Love and devotion is every step, every breath, every look, every sound, every waking moment.

There's a need for technique - a need for a scientific technique to be applied.

The technique is simply to let go and let GOD the Gita covers this well.

Spirituality at its highest levels is a kind of a science and does require conscious technique, whatever it may be. BUT technique is "dry" and leads nowhere without the motive being one of Love - to God and to fellow man/woman. I am certain that the Gita nad R mean this - that you apply technique, but that the motive must always be one of love.

Yes every positive and loving intent, word, thought and deed is the technique, the science of being in the heart of love. In this space one lives in one’s heart of soul and not one’s intellect. In conscious awareness of our impact on ourselves, others and the rest of the planet. The heart of conscience, intelligence and true wisdom can only be found in the heart, it is here in the heart that we unite with GOD, the lover and the beloved the sacred union with the divine. A willingness to love the power of love more than the love of power.

like dancing... you can tell the ones who love to dance and those that just learn a routine.

You have got it Rosie, some people love to love and some have to be shown the way........

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear Rosie I have been feeling more and more your beautiful analogy of the dance. How wonderful indeed that Krishna and Jesus so enjoyed the love of dance and how the Indian sub-continent have brought the amazing colour and dance of joy to humanity.

Thank you for sharing - the cosmic dance of love indeed.

Such freedom and liberation, the cosmic dance of love has so much to offer in so many different ways.

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Off topic and weve been here before, but with a :DIll just say that the text about Jesus and the dance - I dont have it to hand - but he stood stock still just once in the middle while disciples in an apparent one-off ritual (in a gnostic text) went around him while repeating mantras he gave.

Jesus may have invented the waltz for all i know ;)but it isnt even in gnostic scripture. He didnt budge, but gave the affirmations for the others to repeat. Accredited to John, if I recall (?) and the reason he recounts it is because he sounds astonished at the happening as it was seemingly a one-off occurrence.....

V

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear David

We agree to disagree once again, I suppose Jesus didn't like to laugh either! 😀

I am sure that you are aware that most aspects of dance was removed from the bible due to its connection to pagan origins.

I hear Freake and Gandy have brought out a new book called 'The Laughing Jesus' have you read it? And Hoeller has dedicated a wonderful chapter in one of his books called 'The Dancing Jesus'.

How sad that you do not imagine that Jesus liked to dance. Scripture does not hold all of his words, thoughts and deeds.

For dancing is a celebration of life, sad that the orthodox church removed it and anything else that brought such joy to people's lives.

being love

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear Venetian,

What an absolutely lovely read! Your prose has a beautiful lyrical quality to it, and you've woven the subject matter of bhakti, karma and reincarnation together with such skillful ease. It sparked lots of thoughts in my mind and there was plenty I learnt from it.

As a practising Hindu who has been born and brought up in this country, I've experienced at first hand how difficult it is to engage with Hinduism from a theological perspective. Being one of the first generation of Asians to grow up in the UK, there were lots of pressures to conform to Western society - to fit in, get a good eduation, and mix two very different worlds together. There wasn't much room left for reading into Hinduism!

But in some ways, it didn't matter. As your example of Ramakrishna shows, it's the way faith is practised that matters. For me the emphasis was on developing my own relationship with God, saying my prayers sincerely from the heart, honouring my parents (as a way of respecting the Godhead in them), and gathering together in communities to celebrate our faith in God. By putting into practice some of the teachings at the heart of Hinduism, I learnt to draw my faith into my every day life. I've never felt that religion is something I wear on my sleeve, purely because it's knitted into the fabric of my being.

I think this has been the essence of the way Hinduism has been practised in recent centuries. But that has it's own blessings. It's ensured that Hindu scriptures have been kept in tact, rather than seen as a source of power to be missused. No library at Alexandria to burn in Hinduism or Hebrew texts to corrupt, as the majority of Hindus were illiterate and so could only be reached in different ways. There's always been a great story telling tradition in Hinduism. My Mum used to do puja to Lord Shiva or Santoshi Maa. On either a Monday or Friday she would fast and read a story to me and my sisters in our mother tongue. Or there is dance, the theatre or puppetry with stories from Krishna leela. Colour and life were the way of expressing devotion, and books were for the pundits who wanted to deepen their knowledge.

My memories of faith in my childhood are of fun (singing bhajans every Saturday), community and a huge sense of happiness because I knew I was loved by God. That's what being a Hindu continues to be for me 😀

Thank you for sharing your writings. Can't wait to read some more [sm=1syellow1.gif][sm=1syellow1.gif]

Cub

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

How sad that you do not imagine that Jesus liked to dance. Scripture does not hold all of his words, thoughts and deeds.

I seem to have somehow not got notifications (I noticed) from this thread, and just read this. Or maybe I was busy when written. 😉

Kim, all I'm looking for is accuracy. If Jesus invented rap or the waltz so be it. But it ain't in scripture, not even in the gnostic texts. You write all over the place in many threads "Jesus loved to dance". You are referring to the gnostic text in which he didn't in fact even move! It was seemingly a one-off ritual. It wasn't even a dance but a ritual. (You could rephrase it, "Though there are no reports in any gospel about it, IMHO Jesus loved to dance".)

Or if it's channeled information, that doesn't count as evidence.

V xxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear Cub,

Thanks for the post and all in it.

You mention Santoshi Maa.That's really interesting to me as an off-shoot subject, since isn't that the recent deity who was kind of 'invented' through story telling quite recently (late 20th century), and then a TV series or something was made about her? I'm not debating her real or non-real existence, but just interest in the way deities come about....

Venetian xxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear David

Have you read every single gnostic text in every language? You judge accuracy on what is available to you, do you not.

I look forward to the day when the Vatican archives are opened. I learnt a very long time ago to never say never David.

Yes I and others have had personal experiences and have danced with Jesus. That is not channelling it is a mystical religious experience of a supreme order. Not only does he dance but he twirls you around like cinderella and her prince, the lover and the beloved at the most amazing ball. It is the most wonderful experience of pure joy to be held in his arms in such a way. To see him so happy to dance is an experience one never ever forgets.

"He inspires me with his presence
And I feel like the belle of the ball
Dancing through heaven our Kingdom of Love
The Sacred Union with the Divine".

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi Venetian,

I did a little reasearch and found some evidence to suggest that Santoshi Maa has a film alter ego that predates the actual incarnation of the avatar [sm=eeeK.gif] - this has a really good critque of the film.

I do remember watching the film as a teeny weeny child, but checked with my mum about the origin. She was quite emphatic that Santoshi Maa is one of the 9 incarnations of Durga Maa, and that she was taught about Her as a child. Now my dear mum is quite frail and elderly, and does get a little confused, so she could be right, but she could equally be mistaken. That said, She always feels like a divinity to me when I pray to Her (although I know that's not the point you were making).

Will do some more digging around when I come back (am off hunting this weekend for more heavenly Blue John in the Peaks, being the Crystal Cub that I am [sm=jump1.gif]).

Cub

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi Cub,

I believe in deities and gods, etc., but also come from an academic (in quotes) background, Santashi Maa is really interesting to academics for it seems to be a very recent example of how a "deity" might be invented - such as Durga, Brahma, Kali, Hanuman,and all the others. Now, I am NOT saying that they are not real beings! I am just being "intellectual" here. But Santoshi Maa did not exist until a few decades back - that is fascinating to academics, I assure you!

I'd love to hear anything else you can add.

Of course, this is a chicken-and-egg situation in all cases - what came first? It may be that the deity was invented by mortals and is not real, or it may be that a real Being made himself/herself known.

It's very interesting indeed. Because it may give insight into how the gods and goddesses came about at least in some cases. In this recent case it was sheerly through the mass media and talk/chat, and academics are truly fascinated.

[This is totally off-topic of the thread, but I am happy to go with it, or it can become another thread.]

ORIGINAL: Crystal Cub

Will do some more digging around when I come back (am off hunting this weekend for more heavenly Blue John in the Peaks, being the Crystal Cub that I am [sm=jump1.gif]).

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi Venetian,

Thanks to Cub's super posts, I've just read this. Very interesting and I totally agree with where you write:

There's a need for technique - a need for a scientific technique to be applied. Spirituality at its highest levels is a kind of a scince and does require conscious technique, whatever it may be. BUT technique is "dry" and leads nowhere without the motive being one of Love - to God and to fellow man/woman. I am certain that the Gita nad R mean this - that you apply technique, but that the motive must always be one of love.

This passage of Mary Baker Eddy's I feel exactly sums up what you are saying here and certainly, from my perspective I have seen how the letter alone has so killed the love, joy and inspiration that should be at the very heart of all religions. I'm going to insert 'Hinduism" here instead of 'Christian Science":

"God is the Principle of divine metaphysics. As there is but one God, there can be but one divine Principle of all Science; and there must be fixed rules for the demonstration of this divine Principle. The letter of Science plentifully reaches humanity to-day, but its spirit comes only in small degrees. The vital part, the heart and soul of (Hinduism), is Love. Without this, the letter is but the dead body of Science,--pulseless, cold, inanimate." (Science and Health p 113)"

However, my favourite quote about this idea is:

Principle without love is an iceberg.
Love without principle is a wobbly jelly. 😀

Judy

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Is it not also true David that Shiva is also portrayed dancing? And one of his titles is Lord of Dance.
It is not also true that the Temple dancers were called devadasis ("servants of GOD"). They have emulated Shiva for thousands of years. In addition to dancing these women honour the dieties and convey the divine feminine energy to male worshippers through the sacred act of creation e.g. the cosmic dance of sexuality.

Perhaps you and Cub could enlighten us further on this type of love and devotion in Hinduism.

ORIGINAL: Principled

Principle without love is an iceberg.
Love without principle is a wobbly jelly. 😀

Judy

Love that Principle

I would add that love is creation and creation is love when it has principle and pure intent and David did weave his article with love.

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: Principled
Principle without love is an iceberg.
Love without principle is a wobbly jelly. 😀

Love that image, Judy. Icecream and jelly are a good combination in my book 😀

Princple and love are necessarily entwined and perhaps necessary for our own growth. How do we chart our development but by reaching certain goals that we have mapped out in our spiritual development.

Another image that comes to mind is a plant growing upwards. Without a cane to guide it up it would just spread haphazardly around without any sense of order, i.e. it would not have a strong identity. Development of that identity is helped by giving it structure. I'd suggest that our individual identities are strongly influenced by the princples we hold dear to ourselves. But if we live only by the letter of form and structure, do we cease to recognise ourselves as the plant and instead assume the shape of the cane? 😮

Cub

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Interesting topic, Kim. I'll start another thread.

Venetian - happy for you to start another thread on Santoshi Maa, if you've got some more thoughts. Not sure what else I can say on the academic idea of how divinities come to be created. It makes no difference to me that She may have arisen from celluloid, as it's Her presence in the moment that moves me. (Thinking about Her on Friday, I found myself moved to tears of joy, and I haven't prayed to Her in years.) She comes from the same divine source as the other deities in the Hindu pantheon. Her different characteristics lend Her an individual voice, but that voice is a vehicle for distinguishing Her from other deities for me. I'd suggest that God has subdivided itself into all the deities just to have endless fun in taking centre stage in a play.

Perhaps you're familiar with the Krishan leela story of Bramha taking away the Gopis from Krishna for a whole year? It was only a second in Bramha's thinking of time - He was testing Krishna to see what He would do without all his playmates - but Krishna merely assumed their roles and continued his merry dance for the human year. Again the theme of endless dance . . .

A final thought: I wonder if divinities arise where there is a need in society. The poor abused married daughter-in-law is a continuing story in modern Hindu life, both in India and elsewhere where Hinduism has spread. Perhaps Santoshi Maa and her story came about to lend courage and support to these brave women who would otherwise take it as their lot in life to accept their everyday torture?

Cub, xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL:

Santoshi Maa

David and Cub you raise some very interesting aspects!

I had never heard of Santoshi Maa. However, I have heard people like her appearing before people. E.g Sai Baba and also I have heard of reports of other people appearing before people in dream state and people gaining great fortitude, faith, power and strength from praying to pictures and images of ordinary people that have touched their lives in same way. Some being complete strangers.

I myself have been amazed at similar developments and agree with the question about the evolvement of deities. It is a fascinating subject and I feel links in with archetypes too.

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: Sacredstar

Is it not also true David that Shiva is also portrayed dancing?

Just in brief, 'Shiva' isn't an historical personage, so this isn't about a person dancing.

The gods and goddesses of Hinduism are all very different and details, with each aspect being symbolic of some form of Cosmic Energy. So the "dance" represents some reference to physics in the Hindu system - and then of course he has more then two arms and holds a severed human head! [&:]So it's not literal!

Before Bollywood music and dance in Hinduism wasn't really those things at all. They were both completely ritualistic - at least music was, I know. It wasn't, in other words, directly anything to do with entertainment, fun, letting go, etc. In fact it's only a few centuries ago that music was ever really played outside of temples.

There's a big difference between "dance" as a Westerner means it today, and utter 100% ritual.

P.S. Also:

>>"e.g. the cosmic dance of sexuality."

I think seeing sexuality through religion all over the place is somewhere we've been a dozen times, chiefly re Jesus,and I've offered my thoughts before.

V xxx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Hi Cub,

I can start a Santoshi Maa thread in a few days - my material on her isn't with me.

While she's definitely a celluloid or story-telling creation, I don't see why that should subtract much from her. I see 'devotion' to such a deity as going to the Goddess form of God anyway - it isn't wasted! And many (most?) Hindu deities can be seen as figures that probably weren't living humans. So a thread when I can get to it with more detail.

I suppose all kinds of things come in here. For example, some say Krishna or Jesus were just myths too (I quite disagree) but the Santashi Maa example would add weight to that as it's so recent we can trace it happening.

I'm not sure it could have happened quite like this in the past, as it seems to have taken Bollywood to make it work and reach so many people so quickly. ut again, IMHO a real goddess can then come along, invisibly, and pick up that energy and use it, the energy of devotion, and could even "become" Santoshi Maa, in a sense.

Venetian

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

"dance" as a Westerner means it today, and utter 100% ritual

As GOD is everywhere, I would say it is a matter of perception and with some a lack of conscious awareness that GOD is everywhere. Apart from the influence of Shiva there was also Krishna and from what I have seen and read there is very little difference between the joy of dance a Westerner enjoys to that of Krishna. If in fact Krishna was a real person and not a myth.

Life is a celebration of creation and one does not need to be ritualistic to honour GOD or creation IMHV.

Every step one takes can be a joyful dance in honour of GOD. All we are asked is to enJOY the life we are blessed with and shine our light for all to see.

being love

Kim xx

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

I agree that life should be enjoyed! 😉

I'd have to go right back to revise my ancient Greek philosophy, but they basically saw two ways of being, one being Dionysian. This relates to dance, for example. It's not possible to say that all dance is basically the same thing. One kind is holy, controlled, disciplined, highly trained bya high teacher,and artistic. As the wise ancients had it, the other kind is drunken, possibly lewd, out of control and spiritually backward.

That's what I'm getting at, and I think the earliest existing text on this would be the one not even included in the Old Testament, about how fallen angels taught or first tempted men and women "down" from the (allegorical) mountain top into abandonment (misuse of spiritual energy).

One way is very highly trained and disciplined, the other is just head-banging. ;)They're opposites. God wasn't present IMHO in punk head-banging, nor in the NT dance of Samome - unless it be the 'death' of God and the misuse of His energy of course.

But we've been here before on threads- no point in repetition.

Venetian

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

Dear David

God wasn't present IMHO in punk head-banging, nor in the NT dance of Samome

Oh but there is nowhere that God is not. IMHO;);)

Love
Sunanda xxx

PS I too love Santoshi Maa, First heard about her in Roger Housden's book on Sacred India.
Cub - I get a big smile on my face when I think of her.

RE: Devotion and Love in Hinduism

ORIGINAL: sunanda

Dear David

God wasn't present IMHO in punk head-banging, nor in the NT dance of Samome

Oh but there is nowhere that God is not. IMHO;);)

Love
Sunanda xxx

Quite so Sunanda! 😀

David 'Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder and all is perfect when we see things through GOD's eyes'. 😉

"May the Grace of GOD
shift human perceptions,
so that people who are perceived
as ants or worthless cranks,
can be viewed through GOD's eyes.
The most amazing light beings ever to have walked the earth."

Are punks fallen angels ? Or they they enjoying life and being happy in the only way they know how? Who are we to judge anyone for living their life the way in which they wish to enjoy it as long as it does no harm to others.

You are as serious as ever David! Smile 😀 and Let GOD

Love beyond measure

Kim xx