bizarre story re: man chopping off his hand for Kali

An interesting choice of title considering the discussion of Hindu practices being "bizarre" within the shambo thread and this other thread:

Maybe, what this man did, is considered fairly normal in their society?

Love and Reiki Hugs

An interesting choice of title considering the discussion of Hindu practices being "bizarre" within the shambo thread and this other thread:

Maybe, what this man did, is considered fairly normal in their society?

Love and Reiki Hugs

Hmm, maybe so. I had read through the thread on previous days so i'm familiar with the possible negative context of the word "bizarre" (although, honestly - it wasn't something that crossed my mind at all - until i read your comment above).

Do you think the thread title could possibly be taken as offensive? I didn't imagine so but if so, i think you're a MOD - by all means please feel free to adjust the thread title accordingly. I'm by no means stuck to the title and moreso, it definitely wouldn't be worth any potential animosity.

In relation to the Shambu thread, personally - i wouldn't label the dressing of the bull as bizarre - different yes, bizarre no - but that's just my perception. I would imagine - perhaps, the word bizarre to more readily apply to someone chopping off their own hand?

I too had wondered if this act was in some way, less bizarre in Nepal than it might seem to us in the west albeit having worded my thoughts slightly different from yours. I would venture to guess (and this is just a guess) that in most cultures - for someone to chop off their own body part- would be bizarre or in the very least - to use a softer terminology "out of the norm" - but again, that's just a guess.

I personally don't think you need to have the title changed. The "Bizarre"ness was in your own perception and that's what was discussed on those other threads, even if some took it as being offensive.

I agree with you too, I find it Bizarre that someone would do something like that. It's a little too extreme to go and mutilate your own body in such a way in the name of religion IMHO.

Love and Reiki Hugs

1. Kali is a multi-armed Hindu deity often associated with destruction

*****
2. Before this article, I had not realized that Nepal was (a)predominantly Hindu, and furthermore, (b) in worship of Kali.

1. Incorrect association.

2a. Correct

2b. Incorrect.

Come on Prashna, expand a little.

Nishira was only quoting what was given in the article. So who is Kali and why do you say that the Nepalese are not in worship of Kali?

I guess you're saying that the article is written by someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about? Perhaps you can give us the correct information.

Love and Reiki Hugs

I guess he figured Kali could use a hand! 😀

In all seriousness though, being left with only his 'unclean' hand would make life that bit more difficult for him. He'll have to eat, *wipe*, make offerings etc all with the same hand.

Still, Ma Kali likes a bit of blood......

1. Incorrect association.

2a. Correct

2b. Incorrect.

I agree, with Energylz in that, if there is disagreement with facts that were posted (albeit "quoted" from an article) - i'm not sure it's enough to simply put "correct/incorrect" etc. Ideally, why put "correct" if something is correct - would that not simply be implied? If you're going to put incorrect - there would be two reasons (that I see) for doing so:

1 - to prevent the spread of false information, or
2 - to satiate the ego by publicly implying knowledge that others may be lacking

Presuming you're intent was #1 - then simply labelling something as incorrect doesn't really help to educate the reader because they can't know why you're labelling something as incorrect.

That having been said, here is my stance on your comments.

From all that i've read and understand (which admittedly, is very minute in nature) - Kali is most certainly associated with destruction. The perception of what is meant by "destructon" can be called into play. In the West, it seems the concepts we get of Kali are that of one of a crazed maniacal demoness who is hellbent on destroying society, with killing, maming, etc (this can be demonstrated in the movie "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" - by the thugees worship of Kali). Further, Kali is known for rituals that include animal sacrifice.

However, if one takes the time to examine Kali in greater depth, they find a much different perception of Kali's assocation with destruction. Kali is said to be the destroyer of the ego, the path to self-realization. Kali's "taste for blood" is actually reminiscent of the demons that she kills - the demons themselves symbolic of our own inner voices that encourage us to engage in acts that are maybe less than beneficial to our spiritual growth and the welfare of those around us. So, Kali is actually associated with destruction, destruction of our own ego and destruction of the obstacles that lay between us and self-realization.

Kali is also believed to be a derivative of the sanskrit word "kala" - which means time. Thus Kali is believed to be the supreme mother of all creation and therefore the creation of all universes, the destructions of such, and then recreation once again...

After I posted the article on the forum, I was curious and did a small bit of further research into "Nepal". From what I was able to find, the deity most commonly worshipped in Nepal would be Shiva. There was also quite a bit of worship of the feminine aspect of God (i.e Goddess) which from what I could gather - most of this specific worship was directed at the manifestion referred to as Durga, and then other various froms, one of which being Kali.

In my closing statement of that post, when I mentioned about Kali, I wasn't suggesting that Kali was predominantly worshipped in Nepal - i was suggesting that "Hinduism" was a predominant worship and Kali then being one of the manifestions that was worshipped - which is correct, but I do imagine my wording of such could have been confusing.

In Thailand, and presumably elsewhere, it is not uncommon for beggers to amputate body parts to (presumably) make people feel sorry for them and give more.
What a dreadful situation to be in.

Blimey, Andy, since you arrived on HP, Kali Ma has hardly been off the boards!!!:021: (Terrific energy - very uplifting, thank you so much.) Anyway, I was intrigued to read of this Nepali chap and his extreme sacrifice. I have to admit that my first thought, and the one that persists, is that he had to be mentally ill. There's no way that the Divine Mother would require the sacrifice of such a useful body part - although having said that, in the case of the Divine Mother, who knows? (Shankara is certainly correct - oops that word again!:022: - when he says that Kali likes a drop of blood. If I may digress for a minute, I am reminded of two occasions during the little Kali festival in Kerala in which I participate most years. (I have written - and indeed posted on this - in a series of posts from India in the Travel and Holiday forum as well as the Hinduism forum. I just searched for the posts where I specifically talked about this festival and found the following post - or part of it - on the Kali, Possession and Hindu Feminism thread - [url]click here [/url]
to see the rest of the thread:

RE: Kali, Possession, and Hindu Femininism

Just thought to show you a pic of the gurusi during the Kali festival. (I'm always amazed when I succeed in ouploading a photo into apost. In fact this is a digital photo of a conventional snap but I think you can see a bit.)

Anyway, I won't go into details or this post will become way too long, but I have twice witnessed 'accidents' which occurred to individuals during the beginning of the festival which resulted in superficial wounds that bled heavily - and the local people were very cheerful at the auspiciousness of Kali 'getting her blood'! This is not to imply anything sinister per se in that of course Andy's comments on Kali Ma's predilection for destruction point out that this centres always on the destruction of our egos rather than on the surrounding area!

I have been to Nepal and found that the Nepalese version of Hinduism contains a great deal of animal sacrifice:nearly every temple, even tiny roadside shrines, have a sticky lip of dried or drying blood buzzing with flies and smelling very elemental. (I found the energy around these temples terribly heavy.) I visited one of the country's principal Kali temples and there were just hundreds of people taking live kids for sacrifice and carrying parts of them home again for a family feast. (By no means all Hindus are vegetarian BTW.) I have read too about an annual festival in the main square of Kathmandu where hundreds and hundreds of animals, large and small (we're talking oxen here) are slaughtered in an orgy of public sacrifice which leaves the square swimming with blood. Hinduism's dark side perhaps? This may make the young man's sacrifice of his hand a little easier to understand...

Shankara's comment:

I guess he figured Kali could use a hand! 😀

Honestly, Ma Herself would be rolling around laughing at that one! Great!:027:

Much love
Sunanda xxxx

I guess he figured Kali could use a hand! 😀

In all seriousness though, being left with only his 'unclean' hand would make life that bit more difficult for him. He'll have to eat, *wipe*, make offerings etc all with the same hand.

Still, Ma Kali likes a bit of blood......

Hi Shankara,

Delighted to meet you again. Thank you for dropping in.

I doubt very much that Ma Kali could use yet another hand. You would recall that she dematerialised in Shree Shree Chandi (Devi Mahatmyam) 10:6. That was aeons ago. AFAIK, She has not materialised physically since.

Besides, what use is a puny human hand to an entity reputed to be of titanic proportions?

I am reminded of my recent encounter with an Arachnid Araneae, commonly known as a spider, in my home. Often killed on sight by humans, the practice is frowned upon in Vulcan. Following Vulcan practice, I endeavoured to capture it in a flexible transparent shell, in order to release it outside in its natural habitat. Unfortunately the specimen was hyperactive, presuming it had encountered a human. I regret to say that one of its eight legs got severed though the tranfer was successful.

I believe that the dismembered leg of that araneae is more use to me than the dismembered arm in question to Ma Kali! And even Vulcan technology did not enable me to make use of that leg!

A bit of blood? Really!

Try a stream of blood. I am sure you recall Chhinamasta.

I am equally sure that the foolish young man will have a lifetime to regret his moment of madness!

Regards.

Prashna

1. Come on Prashna, expand a little.

2. who is Kali and

3. why do you say that the Nepalese are not in worship of Kali?

4. Perhaps you can give us the correct information.

1. I regret that my past experience of reactions to my posts and your pre-emptive earlier post tend to inhibit.

2. Ditto.

3. Misrepresentation! I did not say that.

4. As 1.

But try this page, which I would have preferred to edit extensively but in the end, had only sufficient time to make a limited correction:

Or you could try

Limited and relevant excerpt:

In spite of her seemingly terrible form, Kali is often considered the kindest and most loving of all the Hindu goddesses, as she is regarded by her devotees as the Mother of the whole Universe. And, because of her terrible form she is also often seen as a great protector.

When the Bengali saint Ramakrishna once asked a devotee why one would prefer to worship Mother over him, this devotee rhetorically replied, “Maharaj, when they are in trouble your devotees come running to you. But, where do you run when you are in trouble?”

Neither actually satisfy me completely, though assimilation of both would give a newcomer some appreciation of Ma Kali. At least, they are not produced by Gulf Times, which is a Muslim source. For the last 1200 years Islamic sources have tried their best to denigrate Sanatana Dharma. It is my understanding that the practice was started by Muhammad himself, when he destroyed the idols at the temple at Kaaba. Please see:

Hope this helps.

Prashna

Hi Shankara,

I doubt very much that Ma Kali could use yet another hand. You would recall that she dematerialised in Shree Shree Chandi (Devi Mahatmyam) 10:6. That was aeons ago. AFAIK, She has not materialised physically since.

Besides, what use is a puny human hand to an entity reputed to be of titanic proportions?

It was a joke - humour me!;)
Aside, I'm not sure it is so easy to classify this person as mad, or suffering some 'mental illness' without knowing the full story. As I'm sure many others on here have witnessed for themselves, there are plenty of babas in India, Nepal etc practicing tapas, involving all kinds of austerities and self-mortification. I remember one chap who had gone blind having stood up to his neck in freezing waters for months on end. What of the babas who keep an arm aloft for 12 years until it becomes a mere withered stick, or attach weights to their dandas, stretching them until they are no longer 'functional'?
My point being, how does one differentiate the chopping off of a hand from such other practices?
I'm not a cultural relativist, "anything goes" in other societies, type person.
But the range of human experience and activity is very wide, and something alien need not be the product of madness.
Shankar.

Hi Shankara

As I'm sure many others on here have witnessed for themselves, there are plenty of babas in India, Nepal etc practicing tapas, involving all kinds of austerities and self-mortification.

Absolutely. But the picture of this young man wasn't suggestive of a baba, nor does cutting off a hand have the same resonance as the kind of tapas which go on for years. (I've just read that he ran a drug store.) Although of course the results of his action will go on for years - for the whole of his lifetime. It would be interesting to have more background information....I too noticed that this surfaced in the Gulf Times but will try to draw no conclusions from that. I'm surprised that our tabloids haven't picked it up.

Love
Sunanda x

1. It was a joke - humour me!;)
2. I'm not sure it is so easy to classify this person as mad, or suffering some 'mental illness' without knowing the full story.
3. But the range of human experience and activity is very wide, and something alien need not be the product of madness.
Shankar.

Hi Shankara,

1. I got the joke first time! But humouring is difficult, when the person making the joke is held in very high esteem.

2. I most certainly didn't and wouldn't.
"moment of madness" is merely a phrase.
From my limited knowledge of English, all it means is that it was a temporary aberration. I am sure you of all people will appreciate that when I say "temporary", I mean strictly in the temporal sense in which time has no beginnng and no end.

3. TOTAL agreement.

Live long and prosper. 🙂

Prashna

Blimey, Andy, since you arrived on HP, Kali Ma has hardly been off the boards!!!:021: (Terrific energy - very uplifting, thank you so much.)

😀

Anyway, I was intrigued to read of this Nepali chap and his extreme sacrifice. I have to admit that my first thought, and the one that persists, is that he had to be mentally ill. There's no way that the Divine Mother would require the sacrifice of such a useful body part - although having said that, in the case of the Divine Mother, who knows? (Shankara is certainly correct - oops that word again!:022: - when he says that Kali likes a drop of blood. If I may digress for a minute, I am reminded of two occasions during the little Kali festival in Kerala in which I participate most years.

I guess, ideally, i cannot judge as i do not know this person, but for some reason, i didn't get the impression that he was mentally ill - but maybe moreso, incredibly zealous? I guess one would naturally be inclined to wonder if his act was pre-meditated or impulsive, further - was he perhaps encouraged by others or was this soley an act of his own volition...hmmm

In regards to Kali "liking blood"... There was a book I read "Kali's Odiyya", in which one section refers back to an annual festival they have for Kali - and the priests go into a trance (similar, i believe, to what was mentioned in the other thread you referenced .. about posession) and actually ummm... hit themselves in the head with a scimitar (i believe) ... the sharp edge. Their blood would of course flow profusely, but when all was said and done - they would heal perfectly and immediately, with no residual pain or after affects. Of course i cannot personally vouch for the validity of such events (having only read about it myself) but it might be akin to events that you've experienced first hand, Sunanda?

I have been to Nepal and found that the Nepalese version of Hinduism contains a great deal of animal sacrifice:nearly every temple, even tiny roadside shrines, have a sticky lip of dried or drying blood buzzing with flies and smelling very elemental. (I found the energy around these temples terribly heavy.) I visited one of the country's principal Kali temples and there were just hundreds of people taking live kids for sacrifice and carrying parts of them home again for a family feast. (By no means all Hindus are vegetarian BTW.) I have read too about an annual festival in the main square of Kathmandu where hundreds and hundreds of animals, large and small (we're talking oxen here) are slaughtered in an orgy of public sacrifice which leaves the square swimming with blood. Hinduism's dark side perhaps? This may make the young man's sacrifice of his hand a little easier to understand...

thank you for sharing. it's interesting to learn these facts about different cultures and their different approaches to religion (although i'd be remiss if i didn't add a note of personal sentiment stating simply...poor animals :dft006:)

Treatment of Kali image in Saudi Arabia

Hi Nishira,

A thorough scan of your message 8 (all 521 words) failed to identify a single salient point for me to respond to. Therefore I shall expand on my response to your opening post, as you wished.

Your story was taken from the Gulf Times, an Islamic source. Allow me to illustrate with a story of my own:

Saudi Arabia- Trauma on entry

An acquaintance of mine had to visit Saudi Arabia. He happens to revere Ma Kali and had an image of her in his suitcase (checked-in luggage). On arrival at Saudi, his suitcase was turned inside out, the contents thrown unceremoniously over a large table and every item critically examined.

The Saudi official found the glass-framed image (about 8 inch x 6 inch), threw it on the hard floor and smashed it with his feet. Since he had not found anything else that he could take exception to, he told my acquaintance to pick up his belongings and leave the airport.

I understand from him and others like him that this is standard practice in Saudi. Not only that, if someone carries a picture of a relative, even a parent who looks remotely Hindu religious (eg the picture of Sri Sarada Devi, wife of RamaKrishna Paramahansa) that picture gets the same treatment! No exceptions!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When you cite the Gulf Times reporting this kind of atrocities and human abuse common in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries, I shall be happy to comment further on your story. You can take your time. I shall not be holding my breath.

Regards.

Prashna

I have been to Nepal and found that the Nepalese version of Hinduism contains a great deal of animal sacrifice:nearly every temple, even tiny roadside shrines, have a sticky lip of dried or drying blood buzzing with flies and smelling very elemental.

Hi Sunanda,

Your comments intrigue me.

May I ask when did you visit Nepal and how much of that country (Map below) did you cover?

Some basic info on Nepal here:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/np.htm "> http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/np.htm

I cannot comment on the practice in Nepal, but I have been to many Kali temples in India. As it happens, I myself come from a village which is named after RudraKali. Needless to say Kali is the village deity and her temple is important there. Yet I have never heard of or seen anything like the bloody events you narrate.

In my experience, any amputation or human blood letting in relation to kali is a very exceptional event indeed. From the discussions on this thread, a casual reader might get the impression that such practice is common. Not so.

It would be just as incorrect to come to that conclusion as to conclude that every Muslim is a potential terrorist, suicide bomber or mass murderer; simply based on the evidence that such acts occur almost daily somewhere in the Middle East.

I would add that in India, animal sacrifice re Ma Kali is now largely a thing of the past. The accident you mentioned in Kerala is just that; an accident.

You also mentioned "oxen" sacrifice. I would like to emphasise that in Sanatana Dharma,

killing a cow = matricide.
Killing a bull, almost as bad.

There are only a few absolute no-no's in Sanatana Dharma. This is one of them.

What you refer to is possibly a water buffalo. I thought I would make that clear. Why water buffalo is another story, which I do not feel like narrating at this time.

Regards. 🙂

Prashna

Hi Sunanda,

Your comments intrigue me.

May I ask when did you visit Nepal and how much of that country (Map below) did you cover?

Some basic info on Nepal here:

<a class="go2wpf-bbcode" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href=" http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/np.htm "> http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/np.htm

I cannot comment on the practice in Nepal, but I have been to many Kali temples in India. As it happens, I myself come from a village which is named after RudraKali. Needless to say Kali is the village deity and her temple is important there. Yet I have never heard of or seen anything like the human blood letting events you narrate.

In my experience, any amputation or human blood letting in relation to kali is a very exceptional event indeed. From the discussions on this thread, a casual reader might get the impression that such practice is common. Not so.

It would be just as incorrect to come to that conclusion as to conclude that every Muslim is a potential terrorist, suicide bomber or mass murderer; simply based on the evidence that such acts occur almost daily somewhere in the Middle East.

I would add that in India, animal sacrifice re Ma Kali is now largely a thing of the past. The accident you mentioned in Kerala is just that; an accident.

You also mentioned "oxen" sacrifice. I would like to emphasise that in Sanatana Dharma,

killing a cow = matricide.
Killing a bull, almost as bad.

There are only a few absolute no-no's in Sanatana Dharma. This is one of them.

What you refer to is possibly a water buffalo. I thought I would make that clear. Why water buffalo is another story, which I do not feel like narrating at this time.

Regards. 🙂

Prashna

Mad or not?

😀
...
I guess, ...for some reason, i didn't get the impression that he was mentally ill - but maybe moreso, incredibly zealous? ...

Hi andy,

Having visited your home page, I get the impression that you have no qualifications or experience in Psychiatry.

As it happens I have a close relative who is a member of the distinguished Royal College of Psychiatry and a current practioner in Psychiatry. I know him well, very well and have done so for many years. We have discussed many psychiatric topics together, over the years.

In Britain, any significant act of self-harm is regarded as a serious mental aberration. Consultant Psychiatrists can and do section (lock up in a mental institution) for much less serious acts than chopping off one's own wrist. So by Psychiatric definition, this person most definitely would be regarded as mentally disturbed (mad in lay terms) and requiring specialist Psychiatric treatment.

I believe that the situation in India is very similar.

I hope this helps.

Prashna

ORIGINAL: Prashna
May I ask when did you visit Nepal and how much of that country (Map below) did you cover?

I think it was in 2000 and I travelled from Lumbini to Pokhara and then on to Kathmandu.

Yet I have never heard of or seen anything like the bloody events you narrate.

That's because they happen in Nepal and not in India.

In my experience, any amputation or human blood letting in relation to kali is a very exceptional event indeed. From the discussions on this thread, a casual reader might get the impression that such practice is common. Not so.

I don't understand why you say that a casual reader might get this impression. I have been talking about animal sacrifice - which I have also witnessed at Kali temples in Tamil Nadu in India. In Nepal, I can assure you that animal sacrifice is common. I have never heard of a human body part being offered to Ma in either India or Nepal prior to this case.

What you refer to is possibly a water buffalo.

You are no doubt correct.

Allow me to quote from a website I found:

Sacrifices are also performed as a mass bloodletting, such as during the Durga Pooja festival when, once a year, soldiers in the center of Kathmandu hack off the heads of hundreds of waterbuffalos and goats -- trying to dispatch each with a single stroke.
And during Nepal's most spectacular festival, the Dasain feast in early autumn, up to 10,000 goats and other animals are slaughtered.
Nepal's Buddhists and animists also occasionally perform animal sacrifices, along with a bit of sorcery.

Click for the full article.

The accident you mentioned in Kerala is just that; an accident.

I'm not so sure about that!:021:

With love
Sunanda xxx

I think it was in 2000 and I travelled from Lumbini to Pokhara and then on to Kathmandu.

Thank you, Sunanda, for the info.