anyone interested to discuss the Vedas?

Well, for starters (and I hope this isn't too basic), there are 4 vedas:
Rgveda.
Yajurveda.
Atharvaveda
Samaveda.

The Rgveda contains 1028 hymns, composed in stanzas (Sanskrit: rc, hence the name), devoted to many different deities, asking for all kinds of boons (sons, cattle, wealth, fame, luck etc).
From a Western academic standpoint, it is deemed to be the oldest, on account of its possessing the most archaic linguistic features.
These hymns were originally composed by specially trained poets, using certain accepted formulae. Originally, a new hymn was composed for each sacrifice, but in time certain hymns became petrified and were used over and again.
The hymns were passed down in certain family lineages, and were preserved orally in this way.
Hymns were never just recited by themselves, but were always accompanied by ritual actions. These are described in the Brahmana literature which accompanies each veda, and dictate which action is to accompany which line of which hymn.
There was a triangular arrangement of persons involved, such that:
1. A patron would commission a sacrifice (the yajamana)
2. A priest (the hotr) would perform the sacrifice.
3. The deity would be invited to travel down the path of the smoke rising from the ritual fire, and be seated at a specially prepared area of grass, upon which the soma would be strewn (if offered).

Once satisfied, the deitiy would bestow the desired gift upon the patron, who would only then pay the priest the daksina payment. All were then happy (the god gets soma, the priest money, and the patron cattle, children etc).

Enough for now.
I'll return to the subject later.
Shankar

Ok, i am totally unfamiliar when it comes to the Vedas. I have only the most basic of basic knowledge - surely nothing worthing posting at this time - and I would love to learn more.

This forum seems to be very knowledgeable in hinduism so i'm wondering if anyone(s) would be interested in contributing to a conversation about the Vedas, anything and everything.

I don't know enough to suggest where to start but anything that anyone might be interested in contributing.... here's the place 😀

Hi nishira,

I would like to know WHY you wish to learn about the Vedas?

Why NOT the Upanishads, for example?

Or Shreemad Bhagabad Geeta?

Or the Brahmasutras?

These thre are the 3 canons of Sanatana Dharma!

Why NOT any of these?

Or even the Shree Shree Chandi (Devi Mahatmyam) in which the story of Ma Kali forms a small part! I would have thought that with your stated interest in Ma Kali, that would have been the obvious place to start!

Regards.

Prashna

Hi Andy

I know virtually nothing about the Vedas but I love to listen to them being chanted. My favourite (how frivolous of me to have a favourite!) is the Samavedas. It sounds to me something like Gregorian chants. Each year in South India, during a certain festival, there are groups of Brahmins (Shankara - do you say Brahmins or Brahmans, or is that the subject for another thread?) who chant the Vedas every day in the big Siva temple in Tiruvannamalai. I can't tell you how wonderful it is. On one occasion the group who chant the Samavedas invited me to join them one afternoon when they were chanting privately. I sat very close to them, eyes closed, in meditation and when I looked at the time three hours had gone by! I pranaamed when I left and the oldest guy sprinkled me with rice as a blessing. Not a word was said. Magic! I am told that each group only study and learn one of the Vedas - and it is the work of a lifetime.

With love
Sunanda xxx

Hi nishira,

I would like to know WHY you wish to learn about the Vedas?

Why NOT the Upanishads, for example?

Or Shreemad Bhagabad Geeta?

Or the Brahmasutras?

These thre are the 3 canons of Sanatana Dharma!

Why NOT any of these?

Or even the Shree Shree Chandi (Devi Mahatmyam) in which the story of Ma Kali forms a small part! I would have thought that with your stated interest in Ma Kali, that would have been the obvious place to start!

Regards.

Prashna

Hi Prashna,

I believe the Upanishads are actually part of the same collective works as the Vedas, if i'm not mistaken? My understanding is that the Vedas themselves are various hymns and poems whereas at the end of each book in the Vedas is various philosophical explanations - referred to as the Upanishads or collectively as "The Vedanta"? My understanding is, of course, open to correction.

I have read a very small brief account of the Upanishads here:

By the same author, i've also read "the bhagavad gita"

In addition, i'm currently in the middle of reading the Hare Krishna version of the Bhagavad Gita - which takes much longer to read because of the many personal takes as dictated by Srila Prabhupada. On top of which i have other versions to read as well.

I've heard of "Brahmasutras" but i do know know what that is? Same goes for Shree Shree Chandi.

As for "why" I chose the Vedas to start this thread about? It was the first one that leaped into my mind - no other reason really. I lay no claim to having a particular affinity for what particular text is discussed. If it's possible to get the title of this thread changed to "Who would like to discuss various Sanatana Dharma" literature" i'd be game and happy to discuss any and all that you've mentioned above - and anything else to later come into conversation.

Hi Andy

I know virtually nothing about the Vedas but I love to listen to them being chanted. My favourite (how frivolous of me to have a favourite!) is the Samavedas. It sounds to me something like Gregorian chants. Each year in South India, during a certain festival, there are groups of Brahmins (Shankara - do you say Brahmins or Brahmans, or is that the subject for another thread?) who chant the Vedas every day in the big Siva temple in Tiruvannamalai. I can't tell you how wonderful it is. On one occasion the group who chant the Samavedas invited me to join them one afternoon when they were chanting privately. I sat very close to them, eyes closed, in meditation and when I looked at the time three hours had gone by! I pranaamed when I left and the oldest guy sprinkled me with rice as a blessing. Not a word was said. Magic! I am told that each group only study and learn one of the Vedas - and it is the work of a lifetime.

With love
Sunanda xxx

that sounds delightful - seems that you were very blessed to take part of that.

Hi Prashna,

I believe the Upanishads are actually part of the same collective works as the Vedas, if i'm not mistaken?

In addition, i'm currently in the middle of reading the Hare Krishna version of the Bhagavad Gita - which takes much longer to read because of the many personal takes as dictated by Srila Prabhupada.

that sounds delightful - seems that you were very blessed to take part of that.

Hi nishira,

I believe the Upanishads are actually part of the same collective works as the Vedas, if i'm not mistaken?

You are not mistaken, in the sense that ALL of human knowledge in EVERY field, all that is known and all that is yet to be known are part of the Vedas!

The Vedas have no beginning and no end!

However if you really wish to have some appreciation of the Upanishads, I would recommend Juan Mascaro, here

If Srila Prabhupada's translation of the Gita was the only translation in English available, I still would not use that as my source. Fortunately, there are many authoritative translations available. Srila Prabhupada's is NOT one of them. If you are really interested I would be happy to recommend some to you.

Brahma Sutras I do not even recommend to you. It IS an advanced text, and you might find it a just a little too esoteric. But if you must, you could try the BrahmaSutra Bhasya by Adi Shankaracharya here:

Shree Shree Chandi is my favourite text. I do not feel like recommending any translation to you, after previous posts on the subject.

Finally, there are many recordings of Sanskrit slokas from the Vedas and the Upanishads, some more beautifully rendered than others. These can be purchased readily or even tried for free in the Internet. I have recommended some of these sites on this MB in the past. Not too many takers, I regret to note.

Regards.

Prashna

Nishira: I agree with Prashna regarding Prabhupada's 'translation' and 'commentary' on the gita. I'd advise you steer well clear.
A beautiful text, if you are interested, is Jnaneswar's gita. It is a commentary, originally written in Marathi by a great saint Jnaneshwar, on the Bhagavad gita. It is full of deep devotion, and deeper still wisdom. And composed, if I remember correctly, when Jnaneshwar was still a teenager.

Sunanda: How lovely to hear your memories of Tiruvannamalai. I too feel a very strong attachement to the place. Arunachala Shiva! Hopefully, I'll be free to return for a few weeks at Xmas.

Regards,
Shankar

Sunanda: How lovely to hear your memories of Tiruvannamalai. I too feel a very strong attachement to the place. Arunachala Shiva! Hopefully, I'll be free to return for a few weeks at Xmas.

I'm so pleased to meet another exile - hopefully only a temporary one in both our cases - from Holy Arunachala. For many years I rented a little house there and spent an average of six months a year in Tiru (with a little travelling in between, to Kerala and Kollur, home of my beloved Mookambika). Might we know one another, Shankara?

With love
Sunanda xxx

Nishira: I agree with Prashna regarding Prabhupada's 'translation' and 'commentary' on the gita. I'd advise you steer well clear.
A beautiful text, if you are interested, is Jnaneswar's gita. It is a commentary, originally written in Marathi by a great saint Jnaneshwar, on the Bhagavad gita.

Shankar

Hi Shankara,

Thank you once again for your post.

I have not yet read Jnaneswar's GeetaBhasya. But since you recommend it, I shall try to seek it out. What do you make of the Bhasyas by

Adi Shankaracharyya here:

Ramanujacharyya

Madhvacharyya here:

Madhusudan Sarasvati here:

Swami Sivananda here:

and on the Brahma Sutras here:

I would appreciate your comments.

Regards.

Prashna

Sunanda: That's quite something, renting a place in Tiruvannamalai. As to whether we've met, I'm not sure. I lived in Pune for a couple of years, and would travel to Tiru. during my holidays. Short stays only, really. The pull of Arunagiri.

Prashna: Thank you for all the links. When I was studying I remember we compared the bhasyas of Shankara, Madhva and Ramanuja (representing the three main threads of vedanta). I found them all quite interesting, though obviously my heart lies with Adi Shankaracarya's commentary. I will look at the some of the other commentaries you listed.

Regards
Shankar

Prashna: Thank you for all the links. When I was studying I remember we compared the bhasyas of Shankara, Madhva and Ramanuja (representing the three main threads of vedanta). I found them all quite interesting, though obviously my heart lies with Adi Shankaracarya's commentary. I will look at the some of the other commentaries you listed.

Regards
Shankar

Hi Shankara,

Thank you for your reply.

As you know, ShankarAcharyya only composed the GitABhAsya because he had to or was expected to. He found the Bhakti marg not to his taste and I believe accepted it only as a less preferable route. And the GitA does cater more for the Bhakti marg.

Having said that, it is a most useful antidote to the usual Bhakti oriented bhAsyas and is an invaluable read, if only for that reason. Apart from that, to advaitabAdi's like myself it is by far the most acceptable bhAsya.

However, because the GitA is so bhakti oriented true bhakti exponents like mAdhavAcharyya are probably best suited to bring out its full beauty.

Are you sure that you have not come across Madhusudan Sarasvati's BhAsya in your studies? My own preceptor, who was a panchatirtha, regarded that particular bhAsya as an essential study for students preparing for the Vedantatirtha award. He also thought highly of Ramanuja's ShreeBhAsya as a counter to ShankarAcharyya's BrahmaSutraBhAsya.

Any comments?

Regards.

Prashna

Hi nishira,

However if you really wish to have some appreciation of the Upanishads, I would recommend Juan Mascaro, here

If Srila Prabhupada's translation of the Gita was the only translation in English available, I still would not use that as my source. Fortunately, there are many authoritative translations available. Srila Prabhupada's is NOT one of them. If you are really interested I would be happy to recommend some to you.

Nishira: I agree with Prashna regarding Prabhupada's 'translation' and 'commentary' on the gita. I'd advise you steer well clear.
A beautiful text, if you are interested, is Jnaneswar's gita. It is a commentary, originally written in Marathi by a great saint Jnaneshwar, on the Bhagavad gita. It is full of deep devotion, and deeper still wisdom. And composed, if I remember correctly, when Jnaneshwar was still a teenager.

Prashna - Thank you for the recommendation of the Upanishad book.

Prashna and Shankara - I am curious as to the specific objections of the "As It Is" version of the Bhagavad Gita.

Ideally, anything that I read, I always attempt to read with a discerning mind. If something makes sense (i.e. "resonsates") with me, it generally gets absorbed in my outlook and approach of the world. If something doesn't resonate with me, although i will not discount it in it's entirety - i will discount the information as it relates to me and as I feel i am not able to relate to the information - at least for the time of that reading. If i was to reread the same "discountable text" many years later - I might then interpret it in a different fashion.

Shree Shree Chandi is my favourite text. I do not feel like recommending any translation to you, after previous posts on the subject.

why? after what specific posts? what affect did these unreferenced posts have on your desire to share with me this information?

Dhanyawad

Well, for starters (and I hope this isn't too basic), there are 4 vedas:
Rgveda.
Yajurveda.
Atharvaveda
Samaveda.

The Rgveda contains 1028 hymns, composed in stanzas (Sanskrit: rc, hence the name), devoted to many different deities, asking for all kinds of boons (sons, cattle, wealth, fame, luck etc).
From a Western academic standpoint, it is deemed to be the oldest, on account of its possessing the most archaic linguistic features.
These hymns were originally composed by specially trained poets, using certain accepted formulae. Originally, a new hymn was composed for each sacrifice, but in time certain hymns became petrified and were used over and again.
The hymns were passed down in certain family lineages, and were preserved orally in this way.
Hymns were never just recited by themselves, but were always accompanied by ritual actions. These are described in the Brahmana literature which accompanies each veda, and dictate which action is to accompany which line of which hymn.
There was a triangular arrangement of persons involved, such that:
1. A patron would commission a sacrifice (the yajamana)
2. A priest (the hotr) would perform the sacrifice.
3. The deity would be invited to travel down the path of the smoke rising from the ritual fire, and be seated at a specially prepared area of grass, upon which the soma would be strewn (if offered).

Once satisfied, the deitiy would bestow the desired gift upon the patron, who would only then pay the priest the daksina payment. All were then happy (the god gets soma, the priest money, and the patron cattle, children etc).

Enough for now.
I'll return to the subject later.
Shankar

Thank you for this reply - my apologies that I had missed this earlier.

I assure you, no reply is too basic for my simple mind- "basic" is very welcomed 😎

So basically, it sounds like the Vedas wasn't so much a model of how to live one's life - as much as it was an instruction manual on how to ask for stuff? How to "bartar with the Gods", perhaps? Please forgive any questions that may seem blunt, rude, ignorant - for none of the above is intended. Right now my knowledge is about "zero" - so i'm trying to lay some type of support structure within my brain to understand the most basic of basics. As my knowledge increases, no doubt too - would the maturity and specificness of the questions being posed. Thank You.

What are the distinctions between the four different vedas? What is the general thought on the source of the Vedas? I believe it's thought to be God inspired so i guess a more appropriate question might be - what is believed to be the method of transmission from the Source to Man? For example, was this something that perhaps someone did meditation on - at which time the specific hymn of a given Vedas would come to them?

If the patron did not get that which they initiated the Vedic ritual for - was the ritual then viewed as "unsuccesful"? Ideally, in my ..current.. and ..western.. way of living - i purchase goods and i would reasonably expect some level of satisfaction and return on those goods. If that were not the case - I would go back to the proprietor and hope for a refund or an exchange of some sort? How might that have been handled in Vedic times?

You mentioned that the deities also derived something from the ritual - in the form of soma - may i ask ... what is soma?

dhanyawad

Hi Nishira,
I'll try and answer a few Qs as best I can:

As to the other three vedas,the sama veda is a book of songs (saman) based upon the hymns of the rgveda with instructions on their recitation. It is chanted quite differently, using a musical scale, of sorts.
The yajur veda has 2 recensions: the black and white yajurveda. It is essentially a mixture of prose and verse, with mantras etc.
Finally, the atharvaveda has less to do with sacrifice, and contains all manner of magical incantations, 'spells' etc.
For a *readable* translation, you can look at Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty's book 'the rig veda' in the penguin classics series.
The best scholarly translation is in German, by K.F.Geldner, though it is now more than 100 years old, and in need of revision.

Soma was a plant (we don't know exactly what it was) that was pressed and offered to the gods. It was also drunk by the priests, and had an intoxicating effect. Soma was also the god linked to the plant. He is widely praised and hymned in the Rgveda, with an entire book (mandala- the rgveda is divided into ten such books or cycles) devoted entirely to him. The zoroastrians also pressed soma, known in Avestan as haoma.

Regards
Shankar.

I should add that the Rigvedic hymns were for use in ritual. As such, they are far less concerned with speculation on how to live one's life than, say the later dharmashastra texts.
If you imagine lots of priests making offerings, the trick was to compose a hymn so beautiful, so beguiling and intriguing, that the gods couldn't help but be won over and attend your sacrifice over one's neighbour's. Hence the poet sacrificers speak of contests, and often inserted riddles in their hymns (the gods love riddles), or special sound-hints linked to the deity's name. Eg. a hymn to soma might have lots of words beginning with the sound 'so-' or play upon the verbal root su-, from which the name soma is derived.

A very good scholar who has written extensively on this is Tatyana Elizarenkova. See especially her book: language and style of the vedic rsis.

Shankar

1. Prashna and Shankara - I am curious as to the specific objections of the "As It Is" version of the Bhagavad Gita.

2. why? after what specific posts? what affect did these unreferenced posts have on your desire to share with me this information?

Dhanyawad

Hi nishira,

1. Try

2. After your citing of an Islamic source commenting on an alleged sacrifice to Ma Kali in Nepal.

I am sure you can find plenty of Islamic sources giving you further information on Ma Kali.

Regards.

Prashna

Hi nishira,

1. Try

2. After your citing of an Islamic source commenting on an alleged sacrifice to Ma Kali in Nepal.

I am sure you can find plenty of Islamic sources giving you further information on Ma Kali.

Regards.

Prashna

Matthew 15:11

11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Soma was a plant (we don't know exactly what it was) that was pressed and offered to the gods.

It probably was, and I'm sure you'll know much more about the evidence than myself. But is it possible that those who say it's a "nectar" that comes from the brain, and lands upon the tongue when this is swallowed in a certain way, may also be on to something?

Not that I support the practice (I believe it's responsible for the death of a friend), but apparently there is an extraordinary "nectar" produced.

V

It probably was, and I'm sure you'll know much more about the evidence than myself. But is it possible that those who say it's a "nectar" that comes from the brain, and lands upon the tongue when this is swallowed in a certain way, may also be on to something?

Not that I support the practice (I believe it's responsible for the death of a friend), but apparently there is an extraordinary "nectar" produced.

V

Well, anything is possible, but I think it quite unlikely. The Rgveda and brahmana texts are quite clear in discussing the purchasing of the soma, its pressing, its straining through various filters, the difference between preparations mixed with milk and without. Also, it was strewn on the seat of grass arranged for the deities for them to partake of it, which would suggest it wasn't an 'internal' nectar. There is additional corroborative evidence from the Avesta (the sacred body of works fof the Zoroastrians) which describes similar practices for the pressing and preparation of haoma.
I think the only real debate is what kind of plant soma may have come from.

Shankar.

Matthew 15:11

11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Hi Nishira,

If I have provided you with some pleasure by citing that quote, then I am happy to have served you. But allow me to remind you that I was only trying to help you.

1. I provided the reference that you asked for. ie dvaita.org review.

2. I answered the question you asked.

From memory, the only source referring to Ma Kali that you have cited so far has been an Islamic one. It is reasonable to conclude that you prefer to receive your information on Ma Kali from Islamic sources.

Regards.

Prashna

Hi Nishira,
I'll try and answer a few Qs as best I can:

As to the other three vedas,the sama veda is a book of songs (saman) based upon the hymns of the rgveda with instructions on their recitation. It is chanted quite differently, using a musical scale, of sorts.
The yajur veda has 2 recensions: the black and white yajurveda. It is essentially a mixture of prose and verse, with mantras etc.
Finally, the atharvaveda has less to do with sacrifice, and contains all manner of magical incantations, 'spells' etc.
For a *readable* translation, you can look at Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty's book 'the rig veda' in the penguin classics series.
The best scholarly translation is in German, by K.F.Geldner, though it is now more than 100 years old, and in need of revision.

Soma was a plant (we don't know exactly what it was) that was pressed and offered to the gods. It was also drunk by the priests, and had an intoxicating effect. Soma was also the god linked to the plant. He is widely praised and hymned in the Rgveda, with an entire book (mandala- the rgveda is divided into ten such books or cycles) devoted entirely to him. The zoroastrians also pressed soma, known in Avestan as haoma.

Regards
Shankar.

thank you for this information. that does help to shed a small bit of light on the concept of the Vedas.

So, if i'm not mistaken, the Upanishads are various spiritual writings that follow the particular books of the Vedas, collectively referred to as the Vedanta?

Well, not really.
Try and think of it this way: The vedas are a body of work. They are used for ritual. Another body of works are the brahmanas - they are attached to various vedas, and describe the accompanying ritual actions.
The upanishads are yet another body of works. They don't connect in any direct way with the vedas, but are concerned with metaphysical speculation.
The vedas are the vedas, separate from which are the upanishads. Crudely, the former is more to do with actions, the latter to do with knowledge.

Crudely, the former is more to do with actions, the latter to do with knowledge.

Hi Shankara,

Concise and brilliant summary, I am impressed.

You have reminded me of a sloka I heard in the TV version of the Mahabharat. I forget the Sanskrit original, perhaps you can refresh my memory. The English version went like this:

Knowledge and action,
___two wings of a swan|

Cut off either,
___the Swan cannot fly||

Live long and prosper.

Prashna

Thanks Shankar.

Your explanation of what is said about soma seems pretty clear - basically it was a drug. Hippies BC! I wouldn't care to join in with them. 🙂

But, don't misunderstand. My original question was sincere and you've answered it well, so thanks. I'll forget the tongue explanation.

Hm, so the rishis were stoned however .. hmm. Were they able to see truth (Sanatana Dharma!!) because they were utterly stoned out of their heads? Now, there's a question!

V