Advaita Vedanta and Deities

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

For me there is no contradiction between advaita and the worship of deities; just as Adi Shankaracarya, the great advaitin saint composed beautiful hymns in praise of Lord Shiva, Krishna etc, so I used to go to temples for darshan.
I think it is a popular misconception (not that I am suggesting you hold to it!) that advaita teaches everything is unreal. This is a charge made by opponents of the system, who wish to discredit it.
In fact, Shankaracarya never said this - he said all phenomena was 'anirvacaniya' - lit. indescribable, in terms of being classified as real or unreal, and also it is 'sadasadvilaksana' - having the characteristic of being neither wholly real, nor wholly unreal (nor both real and unreal, nor neither realnor unreal).
The various deities are therefore to be considered as real as me, this computer, the trees outside my window etc etc. So long as these things appear, we may offer worship, perform puja etc. When these things no longer appear, then there is no problem anyway, nor a question of worship or non-worship.
Truly, even the Vedas themselves, it is acknowledged, exist only in the realm of 'avidya' - ignorance, despite their paradoxically containing the seeds of truth that enable us to loose our false ideas. How wonderful is that!

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

At last, I have someone in whose fully capable hands I can leave the explanations and die in peace.

Shankara has given you the answer with breath-taking accuracy. I can only read and admire his reply. I can add nothing except perhaps indicate some areas of further reading to clarify the complex concepts he mentioned. "abidya" is a concept that does not exist in English. To translate is as ignorance falls so far short of the mark as to be ridiculously inadequate. I could say "nescience" as the Ramakrishna Mission books do. Would that mean anything at all to you?

For now just believe Shankara and delight in his explanations as I intend to do.

You also wrote "Sri Ramakrishna seems to have considered both approaches as valid." A few misconceptions here. Not "seems to have considered" "did confirm". Not "both" but "all".

Ramakrishna's famous saying is "Jato mat, tato path" meaning:
there are as many paths (to Godhead, salvation, whatever you like) as there are opinions (meaning spiritually informed advice).

He was unique.

He actually practised many different religions and paths, including Christianity, Islam, Tantrism and others. So he said this from PERSONAL experience. (Sorry about the caps. Even bold + underline does not do it justice, IMO)

I do not know any other religious teacher, guru, prophet, whatever you care to call them, who has done that. If you know of one and share your knowledge with us, I for one would be grateful.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Just a few further thoughts (if I may) from the perspective of advaita vedanta concerning deities and their worship.
In one important text, the vedantaparibhasa, all 'things' are said to have 5 characteristics:
1.asti - existence
2. bhati - (difficult to translate) self-evidence
3. priyam - dearness
4. rupam- form
5. naman - name.

Importantly, Advaita Vedanta says only the first 3 are true for Brahman. 4 and 5 - Name and Form belong to the phenomenal world (jagat) which, as I hinted at earlier, has not a fully real status as Brahman does. Therefore, to worshipthe Supremewith an idea that 'he' is of a certain appearance, with a particular name (so called saguna brahman- literally, brahman withqualities)etc could potentially lead to some misunderstanding.
This is why many (but not all) advaitins, upon renouncing the world no longer continue with the performance of their daily rites etc which are prescribed by the texts, preferring instead the path of knowledge (jnana-marga).
However, that is not to say worship of the deities is in any way wrong, and the great advaitin saints never forbade such activities for they are undoubtedly beneficial on the relative plane of name and form, on which 'they' and 'we' exist.

I hope this is not too confusing, I am not always very good at expressing my thoughts clearly.
Humbly,
Shankar.

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Brother Shankar,

You wrote "I am not always very good at expressing my thoughts clearly." Well, you may or may not be but I am. I have not taught for over a quarter of a Century in Britain for nothing!

You just keep answering the questions with the depth of your knowledge, which is greater than mine. I shall try to use my entire grasp of the English Language to explain further, if need be. My personal details are in my profile, which you may have read. You would know that my Mother tongue is Bengali and I am married to a Bengali woman from a Brahmin family. In our conversations at home, we often change from Bengali to English and back without even realising it or losing the train of thought and flow of expression even for a fraction of a second. Both of us are fully bi-lingual.

So I believe I am as well able as anyone and perhaps better than most, to explain further your very clear explanations (to me, but perhaps not to a Westerner).

It's worth dwelling a little onthe first item of your list.

As you are no doubt aware, most contemporary scholars accused Shankaracharyya of being a Buddhist. He was not, because of that first one.

He was 'astik' whereas Buddhists are essentially 'nastik'. But of course, Buddhism was not the only nastik strand. There was the Rishi Charbak, for example.

Your explanation of deities is of course correct. Ramakrishna explained it in hes characteristic simple fashion.

If you break a leg, you go to hospital, have it set and walk about in crutches for the next few weeks.

When the leg is healed, you throw away the crutches.

Similarly with deities and the apparent conflict between dvaita, bishishta-advaita and advaita vedanta.

How can the limited human mind grasp the Infinite. I can't and that's after a lifetime fo study to the highest levels, and being blessed with a high IQ. But even the dimmest are just as much Brahman. How do they grasp the Infinite?

So they worship Ma Durga, Ma Kali, Sri Krishna or whatever. If it is to be, then the crutches will fall away eventually, and mAyA or abidya will be removed.

Indeed in the long run, that outcome is inevitable. For the soul was never born and it can never die. It was, remains and always will be perfect. How can that perfect soul not merge in the infinite?

aum^ shanti.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Thank you, both, for your replies which, yes, I do find very clear. Really, thank you. There are a few Sanskrit words there I don't know, but I do get the gist even then.

P.S. Oh, and Prashna - No, I don't know anyone else in any religion who practised such a range of paths - including dressing and living as a woman during a Kali stage. I've read the biography by Isherwood three times over the years.

Venetian

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

You wrote "I've read the biography by Isherwood three times over the years." I assume you mean 'Ramakrishna and his disciples' by Christopher Isherwood. No wonder you are so knowledgable. Shankara, if you are reading this and haven't yet got a copy, get one double quick from your local Ramakrishna Mission. Should be about Rs 60/- Absolute gem. Riveting reading.

That's the one that rekindled my interest on Vedantism. An English friend and colleague gave it to me and began asking me questions. In order not to appear stupid, I had to swot up. Not difficult when I had already knew almost by heart ALL the Asimov's books I had mentioned.

Anyway, here is the meaning of those Sanskrit words. I don't blame you. They are tough, and tough for Shankara to explain. But not for me. Please fasten your safety belt. We are about to jump across hyperspace.

It was 800 AD. Brahmanism was at its worst, the caste system had much of India in its cruel, iron grip. The masses of lower castes found life hard, almost unbearable under the yoke of the inhuman Caste System. But there was a way out - Buddhism. Under buddha, there was no untouchability. A superstructure began to appear over the foundation that Emperor Ashok laid centuries ago. Hundreds of thousands of lower castes began to escape into buddhism.

Meanwhile a new threat was coming from the NorthWest. It will not extract its terrible toll for another hundred years and more. It was Islam. Hinduism faced the greatest threat in its two thousand year old history. It was nearly being wiped out.

Then just as the opening sloka of the Bhagabat Gita had declared, an extraordinary child was born in Tamilnadu, Shankara. He is the reason why there are so few Buddhists in the land where Buddha taught. He engaged the greatest Buddhist scholars of his day in debate and defeated them all. Like the true gentlemen that they were, they accepted his studentship. Buddhism was stopped in its tracks in India.

But how did he do it?

As our shankara said:

he said all phenomena was 'anirvacaniya' - lit. indescribable, in terms of being classified as real or unreal,

also it is 'sadasadvilaksana' - having the characteristic of being neither wholly real, nor wholly unreal (nor both real and unreal, nor neither realnor unreal). I shall break down the complex word
sadasadvilaksana' = sat + asat+ lakshana, real + unreal + characteristics.
vi, stands for vishishta = especially or special.

That supported his theory of mAyA and hence his school is called mAyAbAd. So this world was both real and unreal. Sounds like bulls**t doesn't it?

But worked a charm. Biddhism was defeated. As they say, Bulls**t baffles brains.

How can that be? I can touch it, feel it, of course, the world is real, declared his greatest challenger, Ramanuja, almost a hundred years later. He wrote SriBhasya, and develope vishishta Advaita.

Another half a century passed. The threat had become reality. The Muslim invaders had already advanced across N. India and had started on the South. Now as you know Islam is based on Bhakti. A new defence was needed.

Again as predicted in the Gita, the greatest genius of Bhakti was born, also in the South. His name, Madhva. Developed Dvaita Vedanta. For the next 700 years that was to hold sway. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu took it further in Gauda, now West Bengal.

Science was not to reach the level necessary to support mAyAbAd, for 1100 years after Shankaracharyya.

In 1918 Max Planck received his Nobel prize for his theory declaring light to be a quanta. See:
[link= http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Thanks, Prashna, that's fascinating.

I agree that the world is both real and unreal, though those words aren't sufficient to really convey what I'd really mean by that. I hadn't thought to apply the quanta / wave example to it.

It's interesting how it's ideas that ultimately decide who rules tracts of land, as described in your post. There was no need, necessarily, to meet invaders militarily. Defeat or head-off their own belief-system, and some might even join yours.

Yes, I did mean "Ramakrishna and His Disciples". It's easily the best book describing the life of Ramakrishna (and his disciples!), but I was in for a great treat about five years ago. I got to know the members of a small but dedicated Ramakrishna center in Coventry, who had an associated library. I didn't have a copy of Isherwood's book at the time, and thinking I'd read it again I asked among other books to borrow that. I was quietly and modestly told that I certainly could borrow that book, but my friend took another book off the shelves and said, "But actually, I think you'll like this one more. This is very special and conveys the spirit of Ramakrishna much better". It was "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna". Whereas Isherwood gives an account of events in R's life, the Gospel is different. Ramakrishna had an educated disciple, a teacher with a family, and he was able to write down the words of Ramakrishna as fast as R spoke them. Each night he'd go home and copy out his notes from R's teaching, and add other recollections of the day just passed. After many years he edited these notes and produced a stupendous account of what it was like to be in the company of Sri Ramakrishna for hours on end - all the teachings and advice he gave, the things he'd do, the glances he'd give, the stories he told.

So if anyone were to read any one book on Ramakrishna I'd recommend the Gospel - though the biography gives the life-background you don't get from the Gospel, so the two go well together.

Venetian

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

You wrote "So if anyone were to read any one book on Ramakrishna I'd recommend the Gospel - though the biography gives the life-background you don't get from the Gospel, so the two go well together."

I agree, absolutely. But with one caveat.

Isherwood for the racy style that makes reading a breeze.
R for the simplicity that makes reading an ecstasy.

Therefore, for Western readers, R and
for Eastern readers I. In Bengal at least, we have heard those stories a thousand times from childhood. They are engraved in our memory.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

May I try to re-translate what Shankara wrote in message 4.

1. asti - (a as in all) = existence (best I can do as well)
2. bhAti - (a as in Father)literal meaning radiance. But radiance can only come from the innate qualities of something. Therefore, bhati is indeed proof or evidence of "that something". Sanskrit being context-sensitive, in this case bhati means self-evidence.A good example: the Moon ;no light of its own; so even though it may SEEM to have radiance it's not radiant in itselff. Therefore it does not have bhati, in this context. Shankara please correct, if necessary.

3. priyam - comes from the word 'priya, a strange adjective. Strange because it'sordinal; makes sense with non-parametric statistics. You cannot quantify or measure priya yet you can order it, eg fey dear, extremely dear etc.
Priyam changes it into a strange noun that is really conceptual. Someone who is dear. yet that someone has no form, strange isn't it?

4 and 5 are simple enough and I shall not elaborate further. Now you see why only 1-3 can be NirAkAr Brahman.

Shankara, please correct my foolish errors and forgive them.

Regards.

Prashna.

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Thanks, and yes, it was clear to me why 4 & 5 don't apply to Brahman. 1 to 3 make a certain sense, indeed a lot of sense, but I feel there are real limitations in any language at all as to how clearly it can all be expressed in words. We begin with spoken or written words, but the meaning is only really conveyed if those words trigger something inside of ourselves, which conveys the real, necessary illumination and understanding ...

Venetian

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

You wrote "We begin with spoken or written words, but the meaning is only really conveyed if ..."

How true, venetian, how true.

Words are mere symbols for thoughts nothing more. That's why context is so important and given such extreme importance in Sanskrit.

A lot of Pandits and priests would say worship is only possible if the correct mantra is uttered in the correct way with the corect attire etc...

Stuff and nonsense. I think of it like this. Easy in Advaita. If advaita is true then all animals, let's say dolphins are just as much brahman. The only reason we cannot see it is because we are shrouded in mAyA. Well, how the hell is a dolphin going to utter Sanskrit, or any human language for that matter.

R of course said it far more simply and beautifully. His worship was so simple that other priests of his time didn't accept it as such. He simply said: Ma KhAo, Ma Paro..
Mother eat this, Mother wear this. IN BENGALI. Just like that.

How stupid is that. Or how brilliant.

That's what I do. But only because R did it.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hallo Prashna,

Not that Sri Ramakrishna is the only great sage, of course. But I think he is a vital one since nobody has broken down barriers and been so non-dogmatic that I can think of. So his 'way' also creates peace and non-sectarianism.

I know that Ramakrishna missions are probably the most widespread system of ashrams throughout India, but I'd like to ask (since I don't know - the obvious reason for asking) - how well-known is Ramakrishna to the people of India? Is his name widely known and well-regarded, even by the majority of peoples? Or is he only really well known, with his life and teachings, by a minority? It occurred to me that I don't actually know this. And I ask this of anyone in fact who can reply. 🙂

Venetian

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

I shall have to itemise my replies. You are not surprised, are you? Sometimes you must wish that I should really not be so hung up on being 'logical'. I wish it too, but I cannot help it.

1. R most emphatically wasnot the only great sage. Swami Vivekananda was another. Rabindranath Thakur, Rishi Bankim, Raja Rammohan Roy, Lokmanya Tilak (I think) . Possibly MK Gandhi, though his philosophy is more Jain than Hindu. As the gita opens:
JadA jadAhi dharmasya glanirbhabati bhAratah..." (whenever and wherever dharma is obscured in Bharat...)

2. He is vital, for precisely the reasons you mention. You are sooooo good. But the reasons apply to the others I have mentioned, almost with equal force. As you must have noticed from the translations of Rabi Kabi that I have been posting.

3. Every Bengali knows about R, that's about 60 Million for a start. Then every follower of Viv and Ramakrishna Missions world wide. Say another 50 M. Then a proportion of Hindus in India, outside Bengal. 10% of 730m seems reasonable. That's 73M. Then a much smaller proportion (but increasing exponentially, I hope) of non-Hindus worldwide. Say 0.01% of 1Billion. That's 10M. Total 193M. Rounded to 200M and increasing.

Sorru to be so pedantic. It's only logical....

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Just a minor point on numbers. 50 million in the missions worldwide? I really do not know about other countries, but I do have some idea of the English situation. There's one center, staffed full-time on average by about five people, and for major celebrations, coming one supposes from a 50+ mile radius, something like 200 arrive. We might guess there are 300 people in England who are devoted enough to Ramakrishna in particular to spend celebration days at the R Mission here. 300 here doesn't off-hand suggest there'd be 50 million elsewhere, but I really don't know.

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi V and Prashna

V , I think Prashna's answering the question of 'how many people know of Sri Ramakrishna and his teachings and regard him well'. Not how many actual followers he has. Am I right, Prashna?

With love
Sunanda xxx

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi Sunanda,

Well, yes and no. Strange answer? I suppose so.

It all depends on that critical word 'follower'! How it is defined.

You see I have no idea how you or V would define it. Or even how you perceive the concept of definition itself.

Follower to me means someone who has heard, read or seen at least some of the essence of his teachings and realised them in his/her life.

In Mathematics 100% does not exist nor does 0%. Nor in Hinduism. You know I hate to use that word, mainly because it is so inaccurate. It does not begin to capture the essence of Sanatana Dharma.

You see,Hinduism is all about realisation. Not reading, understanding or theorising. It is realisation. That's one of the reasons why Hinduism is such a misnomer.

Anyway back to realisation. The best idea I can give is from Mundaka Upanishad, Sloka 1:2:7 & 8

Unsafe are the boats of sacrifice to go to the farthest shore
Unsafe are the eighteen books where the lower actions are explained
The unwise who praise them as the highest end, go to old age and death again.

Wallowing in ignorance, but calling themselves wise
Thinking they are learned the fools go around
Hurting themselves badly, like a group of blind men
Led by a man who is himself blind.

Perhaps Shankara or anubhuti could explain it better.

Sunanda, you said you would tell me what attracted you to Ma Kali!

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Sorry Sunanda,

I didn't mean to offend you.

That's I did. Looking back I can see that the number I quoted would be regarded as the highest likely number.

Now for the lowest estimate:

Using V's definition I would estimate about 3000 in Britain (10 centres assumed).I know there are a few. Say about 10 countries with a total population of 500 M. (inc Australia, USA and Canada and most of Western Europe. That takes you to about 30,000. AFAIK R is well known enough in Bengal to make my assumption valid. Even so let me apply a factor of 25%. So about 15M in Bengal. Add 7.3 M across India (1% of population). Total about 23M.

Range then 20 - 180M worldwide.

That's the best I can do. I am sorry.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Prashna

How could you offend me?

I have told you about my meeting with Ma Kali over on the Kali, Hinduism thread.

BTW Roger (Conspiritualist) is a good cyber buddy of both myself and Venetian. We have all got to know each other well over the past three or so years here on HP and we are used to each others' styles. So it would be great if you and roger would recognise that neither of you has any kind of agenda to work out....

With love
Sunanda xxx

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi Sunanda and Venetian,

You are both good people. Thank you for that info. I shall try to visit that thread and take in that info. best I can.

Whether Roger has an agenda or not I do not know nor is it any of my business. If you say he is a good person, then I shall accept your word without question. I most certainly have an agenda. And it's simply this. I am attempting what most Hindus would say is impossible. I have no intention of returning to this earth. The only thing that I want, only thing, is a place in my beloved Ma Kali's feet. Nothing more. But I want it to the end of eternity.

That's all I seek. All of creation.

I suspect that is likely to conflict with most people's perception. There is nothing I can do about that. Perhaps you know the Story of Arjuna, Krishna and Duryodhan just before Kurukshetra; early in the morning. I find myself in Arjuna's position.

Anyway none of that need concern you. I am sorry that I mentioned my deepest desire, my only desire remaining.

Now a little explanation in simple terms is called for to explain my estimates.

You have heard my desire. Would you call me a follower of R?

I am not poor by any means. I am well capable of traversing the distance that separates me from Bourne End Ramakrishna Mission or from the several Ramakrishna Centres locally. Yet I have not gone attended a single one in my 40 years of stay in Britain. Not even once. Not from any lack of desire or interest. Simply stated, my circumstances have pervented me.

How many people like me are there in Britain and across the world? How do you take them into account?

I have visited the original Dakshineswar temple many times, but could do so only when I visited India. That's 6 times in 40 years. But at least I lived just across the river. I could walk across the bridge. How do the devotees who live 10 miles away get there? The fare that would seem so trivial to you or me is a full day's meal to one of their children. What does he do? Visit the temple or feed the child?

Does that make him any less of a follower?

I have ridden a cycle Rickshaw many times across the Bridge. Every single time, without fail, I have seen the puller, thin and tired as he was lift his arms and join his palms in reverence to Ramakrishna. Poor man pulls a rickshaw 12 hours in a day to feed his family. Just cannot spare the time to lie on the temple terrace for half an hour.

Does that make him any less of a follower?

I cannot write any more. Mu eyes are full. I must stop.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Speaking just for myself, I don't find it at all zany or strange to have as one's agenda freedom from the rounds of rebirth. In my philosophy too, it's the goal of life.

On this:

ORIGINAL: MM1942

If you say he is a good person, then I shall accept your word without question.

... a good person despite the fact that he has a strange football club allegiance, but then nobody's perfect! 😀

On Ramakrishna centers, I'm only aware that today there's Bourne End. Are you sure there are others, and if so, where? I'm not a 'member' in any official way, but was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that there's nothing else in England.

Venetian

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

I think you're right about Ramakrishna centres in UK, v. there would appear to be only one. Here's the link:

Love
Sunanda xxx

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi V and S,

I really am VERY AHORT of time. So please forgive the initials.

What does it matter to me whether there is one or a thousand such centre in UK. I shall still not go to one, even if I live here another 20 years.

But for yur info. I know that a few friends of mine started a breakaway centre in Bolton. I beieve there are many others. You will find them here:

[link= http://www.hinducounciluk.org/affiliates.htm ]http://www.hinducounciluk.org/affiliates.htm[/link]

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

What does it matter to me whether there is one or a thousand such centre in UK. I shall still not go to one, even if I live here another 20 years.

You say this Prashna but earlier you said you'd never been to a Ramakrishna centre in Uk because circumstances had prevented you. So I'm not sure whether you don't want to go - and if not, may we know why not?

Sunanda

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Just to make clear, this is not a matter of large importance to me! - more like a bit of curiosity. In the Hindu Council list I see three "Rama-Krishna" temples or groups. Not sure if that means Rama and Krishna or Ramakrishna. I'm a bit curious too about the idea of being a 'break away' ...

The official site Sunanda gives a link to spells Bourne End as "Bourn Ends" ;). It's actually a bit of a shame about the place as it's considerably underused. Goodness knows how many bedrooms the huge building has, in its own grounds, but there's usually onlya handful of people there- though as posted above, many more family people arrive for special pujas. But it could provide a monastic environment for so many more people. It looks as though very few people in England seek that.

V

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian and Sunanda,

The last time I posted I was really under some pressure of time,in circumstancesone should not post at all. However, there are not many occasions when I can post freely. If I were to limit myself to those, my posts would be very few in number indeed. I shall reflect on that.

Now Sunanda; the answer to your question is deeply personal and Ido not know howto state that in a public board. So I shall say this instead. Vedantism (this is the term Swami Vivekananda preferred) is really a private matter. It does not require attendance in a temple to practise. In my case, it is actually a detriment due to personal circumstances. So I choose to develop myself in the best way open to me; in the privacy of my own home. Fortunately, modern technology esp. the Internet makes it easier than at any period in history.

Venetian, in answer to your question the term "break away" is not accurate. I was pushed for time and this is the best I could do then. The original centre was founded officially, as you state and is indeed the only official centre. However, I know that the English friend that I mentioned earlier found himself unconfortable in it. That's when I was led into explaining the basic concepts to him. From his experience, I believe I would not feel comfortable there either.

I suppose my Hindu friends in Bolton might have felt a bit of that and also a need to have a centre close to their home. What they call it is not relevant to me. I know that they regularly meet there and discuss Ramakrishna's teachings. I have heard that there are quite a few others in UK like that as the list I cited shows. Some of them may call themselves Mandirs but actually discuss R's teachings a few times a year. And yes, some of themmight have murti's to Rama and Krishna, nothing to do with R directly as such.

As to whether they would have monasteries, no. That implies Sanyasin in-house and some form of official ratification. I do not think they would have that.

Finally, seeking monastic environment is not necessary to practise Vedantism. I did hope to illustrate that with my quotation from the Upanishads. Of course, R himself provided far simpler explanations.

My apologies, if my explanations are inadequate.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi Prashna,

I've also known of a Ramakrishna center in England which ... they would be able to describe their relationship to the official organisation better than I. They were recognised by the official organisation and as individuals were a part of it. However for their own reasons they chose to actually set up a center which wasn't directly tied. It existed for several years, and in a sense still does, though some key people have actually moved back to India.

By the way, I wasn't suggesting that the monastic life is necessary. I wasn't entering that debate - family life versus monasticism - at all; simply noting that the opportunity is there at Bourne End, and I'm surprised at howfew feel called to it.

Venetian

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

You said: "simply noting that the opportunity is there at Bourne End, and I'm surprised at howfew feel called to it. ..."

I am not at all surprised at your surprise. That's why I thought you might wish to know what actual, real Hindus, living here in Britain and themselves deeply devoted to R's teachings often feel privately about the Bourne End centre. Normally, you would not be privy to such information. I however do not conform accepted norms. Truth, fairness and justice is what I believe in and always will. Otherwise, I shall not fulfil my ambition. To cover in one jump, the distance that many Hindus would tell you it takes 330Million rebirths to cover.

So here is some more info. How you process it, is up to you. OK, I live nearly 200 miles from Bourne End and it is inconvenient for me to go there. But I and my wife have known for nearly 40 years a Bengali Hindu family who live within a 15 mile radius of Bourne End. The head of the family is a retired GP and most ceratainly is not poor. We have stayed with them several times and so had the opportunity to make the local trip to Bourne End with effortless ease.

We did not go.

They have been to Bourne End once or twice only in the last 40 years! For the same reason as my English friend and ex-colleague.

I hope I have been able to shed some light.

Regards.

Prashna

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

ORIGINAL: MM1942

I hope I have been able to shed some light.

Somewhat. Thank you. More better not be written or posted ...

Venetian

RE: Advaita Vedanta and Deities

Hi venetian,

You have been very good to me, perhaps more than I deserve. So the time has come for me to return a fraction of the kindness you have shown me.

I am not sure how fluent are you in Bengali, even though you are remarkably well-informed on Ramakrishna. I suspect not very much. Which is not surprising. Our own sons' cannot read orwrite Bengali and their comprehension is far from complete!

Bengali is one of the most complex languages to learn, especially for someone from an "English" background, (the language, not the race, is what I mean). In over 40 years in Britain, I have met only one person who is truly proficient in Bengali. Not surprising, since he teaches Bengali at SOAS. And even his knowledge is not enough, outstandingas it is!

Anyway, back to the present. You are well aware that Ramakrishna worshipped Ma Kali. And that there is an entire class of songs devoted to Ma Kali, known collectively as Shyama Sangeet. That is one of the very rich cultural heritages of West Bengal. I and my wife are fortunate in that we are both extremely fluent in Bengali. So we both enjoy these as much as we enjoy, let's say "The sound of Music".

Until today, I had no means of conveying to you the extraordinary beauty of these songs. But now I do. There is a website where you can listen to a whole range of these, choose whichever you like and buy these or indeed just walk away, if that is what you want at a particular time. The URL is : [link= http://www.bhaktisangeet.com/bhajan/bengali/bengali1.html ]http://www.bhaktisangeet.com/bhajan/bengali/bengali1.html[/link]

EDIT: Please see venetian's post # 33 below -
([link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp?m=401161 ]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp?m=401161[/link])
and those following with regard to the abovelink.

Just to help you out, I shall give below my own translation of the third one from the top. This is a personal favourite. You could if you wish print out my translation and then visit the site and listen to the song. Oh, one other thing. In case Rosie wonders, I did this particular translation about 10 years ago.

My little learning (Ami Mantro-Tantro Kichoyee Janina Ma...)

Mantras to invoke you; I could not learn
What little I have learned is this.
If I call you truly with all my heart,
Then you cannot stay away.

If I lay myself on your Mandir's threshold
To cry and cry and cry for thee;
Till my eyes blur in a flood of tears
And can see this earth no more.
Then come to me, you must,
For you cannot stay away.

My faults are many, I know,