Worshipping false idols

RE: Worshipping false idols

"[color="#0000cc"]Your statement about [color="#330000"]"The #1 fear of all Humans = Death” is rubbish, and you know it… LOL, you even state it yourself in your reply to me when you're trying to argue the opposite …. [color="#000000"]"How about when you've been injected with a poison that causes you immence pain to eventually die wishing someone will just end your life""

Pain and Torture would amplify ones decision to seek death faster than normal. Why would they want to continue life when they know ALL is lost? Is'nt this the case with suicidal tendencies? You would have to completly not care about your own life to not fear death but, did you fail to read my question about the Death of a loved one or ones child? Only way I can see someone not fear death entirley is if they have absolutly no care in the world for themself and others.

RE: Worshipping false idols

Wow, I thought, there's been a lot of replies to my question, I'd better go check - and never have I seen a thread that started so innocently go so far off topic and end up with such a furore! C'mon guys! But still I find myself needing to chip in......

I believe in a Higher Being - call that God if you will, although that has too many "organised religion" connotations for me.
I believe that a man named Jesus once walked the earth - and yes, he was a son of "god" in the same way that we are all children of "god", and we all have our own purpose in life just as Jesus had his, and Buddha had his, and so on for all the other prophets.
I do not believe that the only way to a good afterlife, what some might call Heaven, is from worshipping Christ and that anyone who doesn't is consigned to Hell or some other place - Heaven and Hell are man-made creations to keep people in check with fear rather than love, in my view.
I do believe that when our human body dies, our spirit lives on.
I DO NOT fear death, for it is simply the end of one part of the journey and the start of the next. What I DO fear is the process of dying, which is what you are describing, oblivionlord. To my mind the process of dying and death itself are two different things, and I fear one but not the other.

Well, that's my tuppence / two cents worth!

RE: Worshipping false idols

What you are admiting is that you do fear death for is the whole purpose of yourself believing in Souls/Spirits which would sudjest to you that there is infact an afterlife. An Afterlife which would infact guarantee you homage so that you just do not cease to function. An afterlife that would allow you to put aside your fear of death so that when the time comes you will feel at ease. Nice to drive a belief in the mind when it is nothing more than subjective just to escape reality.

However CAN you at all put aside your subjective feelings, look at things at a diffrent perspective and think that maybe there just is a possibility that there are NO souls/spirits just as there may be. So when that critical moment comes and there just Is no afterlife then again as I said above.. an Athiest would be just as much a believer as anyone else just for hope that their life cycle won't end.

Why would anyone want to believe in these irrational thoughts? Of course Hope is what strives man. Depending on how you look at Satan..... What would Satan do if all his minions suddenly lost hope of ever reaching Heaven? It would be no diffrent than torturing mindless zombies. Inanimate objects just aren't fun to toy around with when the real thing brings soo much pleasure.

RE: Worshipping false idols

With moderator's hat on, and in reply to Amber Lady first of all:

I'm sorry your well-intentioned thread seems to be getting somewhat bent out of shape, and our apologies for that. I personally have not been following this thread, and have only just seen the recent posts.

You may well say:

Wow, I thought, there's been a lot of replies to my question, I'd better go check - and never have I seen a thread that started so innocently go so far off topic and end up with such a furore! C'mon guys!

In reply to others in regard to the recent exchanges of views:

C'mon guys! indeed!!! Surely you don't need reminding of the guidelines - AGAIN - in respect of addressing others with civility and tolerance of differing views and beliefs.

May I ask that insults cease, please, and that we return to the topic of the thread.

Many thanks.

Holistic
On behalf of the Moderating Team

RE: Worshipping false idols

Oblivionlord

If not the death of yourself then how about a loved one such as your children? I can think of many sadistic ways to torture a small child in front of the parents face making them submit to my needs

What a nasty, twisted, sick mind you must have to suggest this. Are you a christian?

RE: Worshipping false idols

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord

What you are admiting is that you do fear death for is the whole purpose of yourself believing in Souls/Spirits which would sudjest to you that there is infact an afterlife. An Afterlife which would infact guarantee you homage so that you just do not cease to function. An afterlife that would allow you to put aside your fear of death so that when the time comes you will feel at ease. Nice to drive a belief in the mind when it is nothing more than subjective just to escape reality.

However CAN you at all put aside your subjective feelings, look at things at a diffrent perspective and think that maybe there just is a possibility that there are NO souls/spirits just as there may be. So when that critical moment comes and there just Is no afterlife then again as I said above.. an Athiest would be just as much a believer as anyone else just for hope that their life cycle won't end.

Why would anyone want to believe in these irrational thoughts? Of course Hope is what strives man. Depending on how you look at Satan..... What would Satan do if all his minions suddenly lost hope of ever reaching Heaven? It would be no diffrent than torturing mindless zombies. Inanimate objects just aren't fun to toy around with when the real thing brings soo much pleasure.

how can you ask others to suspend their beliefs in favour of yours, when i doubt you'd do the same for them... i mean, "CAN you at all put aside your subjective feelings, look at things at a diffrent perspective and think that maybe there just is a possibility that there ARE souls/spirits just as there may be."? well can ya?

and, i hate to mention here but satan is a made up christian character... so if one is not a christian, satan dont mean much. so asking "what would satan do..." isnt relevant to many people, cos it'd be a <shrug> "bovvered" moment.

RE: Worshipping false idols

I don't take sides to a belief or a disbelief. I'm Agnostic. I myself believe that there may be a supreme intelligence or group of intelligence governing all and also the the possibility that there may not be either.

I only used Satan as a representation to what one would consider a place in the afterlife if they aren't accepted. Of course Satan is merly a figure used by Christians as you pointed out but, what about the belief systems of others when they aren't accepted.

Then again are you just looking at Satan as figure within a False religion... not the true religion? hahaha

RE: Worshipping false idols

With Moderators hat on again!!!

Please see post....

[link= http://www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp?m=390018 ]http://www.healthypages.net/forum/fb.asp?m=390018[/link]

This subject is going way [sm=offtopic.gif] please have respect for Amber Lady who's orginal question is about false gods/idols....

Kachina
On behalf of the Moderating Team

RE: Worshipping false idols

Hi amberlady

Is it safe.......[sm=hidesbehindsofa.gif]....:D

Anyway, I would just like to say that i really dont know why each religion has there own idols and respect there own reasons.
Although i do believe in god and jesus i can only give an example to a cross that i wish to wear all the time, it may not be a kind of idol in a way of statues, but i feel that the cross feels acloseness.
A kind of personal and private item that makes me feel at home with the divine and close to the connection, im not sure if other religons worship their idol that they look to in this way, but maybe its a way of a type of messenger, a door to the divine above.

As some speak to the cross knowing and feeling that their prayers with be taken through the cross to god ??:eek:

mmm, interesting post

blessings

sacrel

RE: Worshipping false idols

Where is the peace and love and understanding that so many religions claim is their guiding tenent? Reading this thread on a site where I hoped there was a more enlightened attitude saddens me. Maybe the message for Amber isto find your own path, listen to your own heart. You don't need organised religion to become close to the Creator Spirit-just take a walk in Nature and there you may findthe answers you seek.

RE: Worshipping false idols

Hi Guys,
Wow, much has happened since I was here last, and it seems I'm part of the problem,:)
So I think I owe you an explanation.
Personally I think “enlightened” is a much used word and attached to other words too easily, I for one (as an example) don’t really know what an ‘enlightened attitude’ is supposed to be… does anyone really know?
I can see where the note of my posts on this thread can be taken as abrasive and confrontational, and for that (as much as it may displease any) I offer no apology. But please allow me to ‘nail my flag to the mast’ so that there is no ambiguity about my stance on both the subject of this thread, and the reasons for the questions I asked.
[sm=hidesbehindsofa.gif]
I believe strongly in the right of any individual to follow their chosen faith or belief (whether an organised religion, self-defined or indeed strength in the belief that there is no higher power at all), because whatever gives that person peace, succour, solace and/or access to the divine is theirs and theirs alone, we all each of us walk ‘our’ path - no?:eek:

I felt compelled to post because I took exception to two statements, both of which were posted as if they are indisputable fact![:'(] much like anyone feels compelled to post because they take exception to the tone of a thread (for example).

One was the assertion that if the God of the Bible was not worshiped and his word adhered to… then that person remains ‘unsaved’ and ergo is consigned to hell and damnation

The other was the subjective notion that ALL HUMANS harbour as their number one fear – the metamorphosis known as “Death”…which was also posted as an irrefutable truth.

Both are patently untrue, the first notion is rejected by the Bible itself anyway… but I wanted to flag it because I don’t like the way the statement can push doubt and fear into those that are unsure of their path.
And I wanted toquestion the veracity of the second because it is an arrogant statement that negates the millions that exist in the knowledge and faith that life is eternal and therefore harbour no fear of ‘death’ itself, comforted in the belief that it is no more than a transitory phase, an intermission prior to the next part of their existence playing out!
If you fully read the reply to me, perhaps you'll understand more - why the tone of my replies were as they became.

In response to the original question of the thread, my belief & my personal faith tells me that any object can be instilled with the love and energy to allow me access to the divine. My belief is that there is but one ‘power’, whether I choose to soak in the beautiful and loving energy left by many years of worshipers in a cathedral and use the face of Christ as the focal point of my devotion to gain c

RE: Worshipping false idols

What a great post, roger! Thanks so much.

Respect
With love
Sunanda xxx

RE: Worshipping false idols

"[color="#0000cc"]The other was the subjective notion that [color="#006600"]ALL HUMANS harbour as their number one fear – the metamorphosis known as “Death”…which was also posted as an irrefutable truth. "

"[color="#0000cc"]And I wanted toquestion the veracity of the second because it is an arrogant statement that negates the millions that exist in the knowledge and faith that life is eternal and therefore harbour no fear of ‘death’ itself, comforted in the belief that it is no more than a transitory phase, an intermission prior to the next part of their existence playing out!"

I fail to see the arrogance in the statement which bothers you so. You say that it negates the opinion of millions "knowledge and faith"... and is this the reason that you disprove of it? Or is the reason that you posted stating your displeasure the fact that it negates your own opinion? Since it goes against your own beliefs, perhaps you've taken a personal offense and called it arrogant.

You make some interesting points however I believe that you should perhaps choose your words more wisely the next time you decide to comment.

You obviously care for your childrens well being. You may say that you don't fear death for yourself but, again do you not fear the death of your children? I would dare to say that you do. I think it would be impossible to find a parent who did not fear the death of their children unless they just don't care about their child. How could you possibly say that a fear of spiders holds greater importance than the life of your child? I would feel shame and embarrassment if I ever held the life of my child second to anything else and I'm appalled that you would say such a thing.

RE: Worshipping false idols

[sm=FIFangel.gif]Hi.

This post brings to mind another biblical quote that all churches seem to ignore.
" Build not an alter unto us"

This would suggest that the deighty does not consider its' self a god but a guiding light, bringer of knowledge and wisdom!

RE: Worshipping false idols

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord
I fail to see the arrogance in the statement which bothers you so. You say that it negates the opinion of millions "knowledge and faith"... and is this the reason that you disprove of it? Or is the reason that you posted stating your displeasure the fact that it negates your own opinion? Since it goes against your own beliefs, perhaps you've taken a personal offense and called it arrogant.

Oblivionlord,

I think you'll find that Conspiritualist was merely making a point that to say (and I'll summarise here)

"ALL HUMANS number 1 fear is Death"

Is given as a statement of fact, with nothing to back up such a "factual" claim.

The point is that, because people have different faiths and beliefs, not everyone sees death as something to fear. In fact people of some faiths, past and present, believe(d) that death is something to be revered and see it as a means to pass on to a new better life or to go back to their respected "creator".

If you had said something like "A great deal of humans, beliefs permitting,harbour death as their number 1 fear", then this would have been more acceptable.

That's the way I see it anyway. I'm sure Conspiritualist will be able to clarify further for you.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: Worshipping false idols

I am not a religious expert by any means! but I have looked atsome of the most common. and they all seem to come down to love and respect for others and the planet we live on, so,if they all come down to that .. why all the fighting?
It seems to me that it all gets changed to fit the needs of the people who preach or rule.
Taoism for example, it WAS a more philisophical than religious movement. but it became polluted into a religion with Gods and temples!
it was so simple and pure, but I am again no expert, but that seems to have become the extreme opposite! from one honest frustrated man writting his feeling in verse, into beingused to bond people together with ornate templesand Gods and stories. It suited the Emporor!
Okay, that is an extreme example, but the point is, take just about all religions to the root and it was for political manipulation OR was some living person saying ... we really have to be nice to each other you know!
As to false Idols, I agree with the rest of the posts, having something visual, ordable or tactile to focus on helps center your thoughts, so statues in churches or insence burning are just aids to prayer. if you imagien writting a letter to a friend sat at your keybord. Would you not glance over at a photo of them now and then if one was close while you thought what to say next?
we don't know what happens after death, no matter how many people say they do because God has told us. Unless God talks to you personally, you mean you have been told that God told us. .. not the same thing .

RE: Worshipping false idols

Hi Giles,

That’s exactly what I mean… now why can’t I be that nice lol.
I did try to explain and to bring the thread back on topic too; but

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord
I fail to see the arrogance in the statement which bothers you so. You say that it negates the opinion of millions "knowledge and faith"... and is this the reason that you disprove of it?

I don’t “disprove” of it [8D],
You stated it as a fact that “all humans” number one fear is death…
Whether you like it or not pal… it is WRONG… as in ‘not right’ – so which bit of that can’t you get?

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord
I believe that you should perhaps choose your words more wisely the next time you decide to comment.

Somewhat rich to say the least, coming from someone who said: -

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord
I can think of many sadistic ways to torture a small child in front of the parents face making them submit to my needs

And: -

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord
How about someone drugging you making you immobile yet knowing your own judgement but, at the same time cutting you up limb from limb.

As I said before, I offer no apologies for my reaction to you, moreover, I don’t like you…
As for your stupid assumptions that I’ve never faced death… I’ve been stabbed, beaten, had my bones broken countless times and even attacked by a guy wild on coke and acid - trying to slash my neck open with a cutthroat…
Like I said earlier…you don’t know nowt about me… so shove yer nasty, sick n’ twisted statements…Are we clear?

ORIGINAL: piffy
we don't know what happens after death, no matter how many people say they do because God has told us. Unless God talks to you personally, you mean you have been told that God told us. .. not the same thing

Hi piffy,
I can see what you are saying, but very many humans have experienced proof that existence continues beyond physical death… and I don’t mean the messages you get from the medium at spiritualist gatherings.

RE: Worshipping false idols

sorry, I didn't mean that I thought therewas nothing after death!, just that we don't have access to know forcertain. no matter what personal expeirence anyone may have had. If you personally have been give information on the afterlife that you belive is ultimate proof to you then fine! what I ment was the stories of heaven or nivarna or what ever people are told comes after the life they are living now, is not first handexperiece. and there isn't anyone who tell you what is right from certain knowlege! But there again, most religons agree, you reep what you sow!

RE: Worshipping false idols

"[color="#0000cc"]I don’t “disprove” of it ,
[color="#0000cc"]You stated it as a fact that “all humans” number one fear is death…
[color="#0000cc"]Whether you like it or not pal… it is WRONG… as in ‘not right’ – so which bit of that can’t you get?:

Seeing that you have still yet to answer my question about the death of your children after the many replies from the first time I asked only proves me right and you wrong.

RE: Worshipping false idols

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord

Seeing that you have still yet to answer my question about the death of your children after the many replies from the first time I asked only proves me right and you wrong.

surley the question is flawed, the fear of death would stem from fear of our mortality wouldn't it?, but any normal human being would fear theloss of a loved one...thats perhaps called dread of loss...not fear of death

Also you may of missed Energylz post #45 above which seems to hit the point here

So perhaps we could get back to the topic as requested twice by the Moderators "Worshipping false idols" it would be a shame if the thread had to get locked because of the tone of some of the posts

Amy

RE: Worshipping false idols

As sadistic as my above quotes may be, they must be said as so inorder to reach my point. Still in no way was I insulting you as you had done to me quoting my origional statement as being "arrogant".

[color="#0000cc"]As I said before, I offer no apologies for my reaction to you, moreover, I don't like you…
[color="#0000cc"]As for your stupid assumptions that I've never faced death… I've been stabbed, beaten, had my bones broken countless times and even attacked by a guy wild on coke and acid - trying to slash my neck open with a cutthroat…
[color="#0000cc"]Like I said earlier…you don't know nowt about me… so shove yer nasty, sick n' twisted statements…Are we clear?

Now that you have clearly insulted me, I would like to point out that I never made any assumptions that you haven't faced death. I was mearly giving examples like the ones you posted of me above. Wether or not you have faced death or not at whatever degree still remains. I find it hard to believe that when faced with death, a person doesn't have a slight fear that their life is comming to an end. For example: A person is told by their doctor that they have a month to live and their reaction is what? Yippie? Oh great I'm going to meet GOD? Why did I buy that new car? No.. I believe that their first reaction nomatter how small it may be is "Crap my life is comming to an end".

You have also failed to answer my question about the death of your children: Do you not fear the death of your children over your own or is your bowel movement more of a concern?

This is a quote of yours towards piffy....
[color="#0000cc"]I can see what you are saying, but very many humans have experienced proof that existence continues beyond physical death… and I don't mean the messages you get from the medium at spiritualist gatherings.

This proof exists where? I agree with Piffy in that your proof in this regard is only to you. It is difficult for the masses to believe such a thing unless they themselves were witness to such a feat.

RE: Worshipping false idols

ORIGINAL: Amelia Jane

So perhaps we could get back to the topic as requested twice by the Moderators "Worshipping false idols" it would be a shame if the thread had to get locked because of the tone of some of the posts

Amy

😮

RE: Worshipping false idols

ORIGINAL: Amelia Jane

"surley the question is flawed, the fear of death would stem from fear of our mortality wouldn't it?, but any normal human being would fear theloss of a loved one...thats perhaps called dread of loss...not fear of death"

I see where you are coming from Amelia, but I believe that "dread of loss" is only rewording 'fearing the loss of a loved one'. Instead, I believe that we need to look at the originating concern: What would make you feel "dread of loss"? If we follow this chain of emotion, I think we'll see that it is stemming from the loss of the loved one. We cannot have this ultimate loss without the death of that person. The death of that person being the cause to the entire scenario. Following this same logical pattern, we need to break down the attributes of "dread" to their simplest form (as we have above).

dread: to fear greatly

You will find similar statements in other dictionaries, but we shall use this as it is most common. When you break dread down into it's simplest form, we find that it stems from fear. Therefore, if we are dreading the death of our loved one, then we are actaully fearing the death.

Although I assumed that we were still on topic speaking about the fear of death. When I look at society as they age, their faith seems to increase as they get closer and closer to death. Even people who were atheist or agnostic in the past...many of these people change their views and believe in a god. I believe that this falls within the topic quite squarely. Are they worshipping a false idol (one that goes against everything they believed in for most of their life) simply for the fact that they know their life is coming to an end -- that they fear death? I believe it so.

I agree that we should stay on topic. Amelia, would you please lead us back to that?

RE: Worshipping false idols

Dear Amelia, Sorry, but for one post, we're still not back on topic. This is a new one - oblivionlord:

Dear Matthew and friends,

I've been wondering for a long time why you came to Healthy Pages and why you post here? I quote from the Rules and Guidelines;

"HP is a forum for health and healing and spiritual matters."

Do you realise that these are not debating forums, but DISCUSSION forums?

Have you read the Forum rules and guidelines?

Language:
Any foul or hostile language used will not be tolerated. This includes any derogatory statements and profanity. Direct or indirect personal attacks are strictly not permitted. Insults and negative attitudes are not allowed. Saying you don't agree & why, can be done in a good humoured and polite way without causing offence.

All members have the right to their own ideas, beliefs and faiths . Members have the right to express these with equal respect and consideration.

Impersonation:
You agree not to impersonate healthypages members or moderators. Not to create more than one username with the intent to disrupt discussions or deceive members.

Conduct of Others:
Our members represent a wide variety of religious and spiritual beliefs, when joining in discussions on our forums, expect to come across persons whose ideas, opinions and beliefs may be different from yours. Please approach such encounters with tolerance and an acceptance of others faiths and beliefs.

You sometimes remind me of the old film "The good, the bad and the ugly." I say this, because you seem to be 4 different people. There's the Atheist (or is it Agnostic?) Matthew, there's the fundamentalist Christian Matthew, there's the Matthew with his own philosophy and then there's the very pleasant, intelligent and reasonable Matthew, like the one below:

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord

The Old Testament Vs The New Testament - August 2006

I appreciate all of the replies. I truly appreciate the thought and consideration you all have put into helping me to understand and qualify/disqualify my queries (e.g. Interpretation, Differences, etc.); however, I must continue to persue this understanding, or lack thereof, for myself. SO, I hope that you will continue with your entries as they all make me think (whether or not I agree or disagree). I also feel that a heavily-weighted reason why the younger generations are turned off to learning about the Christian religion is that when they question (to clear their own confusion and muddled beliefs in their mind) learned individuals such as yourselves, they are looked down upon and accused of being "rude". We rely heavily on our reliable teachers to turn that confusion (what would be considered by some as simply being rude) into understanding.

That is in the spirit of HP and we would all be happy to write to you if you were always like this.

Sometimes you come across as an ATHEIST:

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord
Lets first talk about 1 thing. Each and every society in themselves determin what's good and evil as in right and wrong since each have their own set laws. Therefore what you consider to be bad in 1 society is not bad in another. How is it that the bible sets the rules for all men within every society without being discriminative? Clearly the bible forces you to follow its law or face eternal seperation from God aka Second death aka Hell. How is this any diffrent from Hitler to his own people and his vision of the world or any dictator in that manner?

Sometimes you pretend to be a fundamentalist CHRISTIAN, like here:

ORIGINAL: oblivionlord
If you try to interpret the Bible in your own image, then let me remind you of these 2 passages:

Revelations
22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.

22:19 If anyone ta