What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

RE: What evidence is there for Religion?

I think the key thing here is where it says "religions are formed by followers".

I say I don't believe in God, but that is God in the traditional sense. I call myself an atheist, but then society looks at me as if I detest people who do believe in God.

I am my own God and I have my own beliefs and I respect that other people have their own beliefs which does not bother me in the slightest as that is their choice. In that respect I have my own religion because I am a follower of my own beliefs.

Organised Religions could be taken differently as this is where people have recognised that they are all following similar beliefs and due to peoples need to feel needed and not alone, they decide to group together and give their group a name thus creating their religion. There will be slight differences in their beliefs but that is what makes us individual. Unfortunately when people create groups they also create a need for control and this is when religious/spiritual leaders come into being. Those who are forceful enough manage to take the control of the group and can lead things according to their own beliefs, whereas those who are happy to be controlled (in the nicest sense, except where religious cults are concerned) will happily be a member of that group.

So religion exists through society and human nature, not because any God dictated that there should be any religious groups, although I'm sure there are probably some funamentalists out there who tell their groups that it is Gods will that those people must be in the group and do as they say ;).

Should be an interesting discussion Kim.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: What evidence is there for Religion?

Why on Earth would spiritual leaders come in the first place with new teachings? And once they have come - believe me as I have been part of it - you can't continue anything without SOME form of organisation. People keep things going by organising or getting together. This has come to be called "religion" which unfortunately has gotten a bad name.

In fact, IMO, the future in spiritual affairs of the world is not about getting more and more independent ("me, me, me, mine" to quote George Harrissong) but rather to re-accept that organisations and religions are necessary. Right now, for reasons which one can understand, people have a prob with that, but they won't get far IMO until the true meaning of religious community is reinstored. All the "I'll do it my way" we can leave to an LA crooner? 😀

V

RE: What evidence is there for Religion?

Dear Giles

Yes, you understood my meaning thank you.

Dear Venetian

Thank you David, well people come together and share on HP but HP is not forming itself into a religon do you get where I am coming from?

Dear All

I would still like to see evidence for the fact that God asked for world religions to be formed? Any takers?

I don't feel there is any evidence at all...just because a person receives some teachings from the divine does not mean that a religion should be formed, now I can understand why some orthodox religious people think the 'New Age' is a new religion when in fact nothing could be further from the truth in my eyes.

I will be interested to hear the views of people who are religious on the original question......

Have fun! Will catch up with you in June.

Divine Love

RE: What evidence is there for Religion?

Perhaps you might rename the thread Kim - there's obviously plenty of evidence for religion. What you seem to be asking from your post is "What evidence is there that God asked for an organised religion?", which is a different thing altogether, and a very interesting question.
Sharon.

RE: What evidence is there for Religion?

Yes you understand me exactly Sharon;)Bullseye....

If I think about Spiritualism, that became a religion because up to that point a medium was tried for being a witch I think that was in 1949 or so maybe Patsy can elaborate on the facts on that one. So for example as far as I understand it Spiritualism became a registered religion due to a human wish to be recognised and accepted unless Patsy can advise us differently. Interesting I just found a supressed report written in 1939 by the Church of England on Spiritualism, not much to do with the topic but still worthy of a look to those that might be interested. Looks like Michael Roll has updated his website.

[DLMURL] http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/religion/cofe_report/cofe_report.html [/DLMURL]

In fact, IMO, the future in spiritual affairs of the world is not about getting more and more independent

Well as I understand it, it is about inter-dependence.

Divine Love

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Hello Kim,

This concept for people to organise worship to a deity fulfils some sort of primeval need in human beings - the ability to explain the world around them and to make sense of it all. Following leaders also makes people feel better - a kind of reverting to human social organisation, in which one or more than one person, assumes responsibiltyfor the main group. When applied to God, the 'followers' look to the 'leader' for guidance and reassurance 'No-one shall be admitted but through me', etc. It all boils down to a primeval need to know that we live on in some form or another. Jesus was one of many such 'leaders' and whose adherents follow him still.

Spiritualism - yes, it became a recognised religion in the 1950's, following the Helen Duncan case. Before then, it was subject to strict controls, even police raids. Out went seances, table-tippings and rappings, in favour of mental mediumship. Seances and planchettes are banned from Spiritualist meetings, although no restricitions apply in peoples' private homes, and there are some circles which sit especially for ectoplasm, etc. I've personally witnessed this phenomenon.

To really get inside the workings of god and religion, one must look at human social groups and why they rely on leaders. One sees it everywhere in nature - I've seen chimp social groups with a 'leader chimp.' When the 'leader chimp' is out of view, the others 'go mad.' It's the same with humans- they need to be led. This social organisation led to the concepts of kingship - humans, like chimps, need leaders.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

As you all know, I am not a member of any main religion, but it is wonderful and so helpful to have a group of you together - not to be striking out totally alone. Call it "religion" or any name, but it is so useful to find a few like-minded people, and not to be utterly absent that. So I also see what mainstream religions mean to people. It is a very hard path to be utterly on your tod - which I have done often! 😀

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

No-one's really answered Kim's question though. Patsy, David and Gileshaveexplained why it happens from an anthropologicalpoint of view, but I wonder if it says anywhere in a "credible"* source thatGod wanted an organised religion.

I don't know the answer.

Does it say anywhere in the Bible that God said to so and so that there should be churches and people should gather there on a Sunday morning so that a man (in a dress) should wave incense, and make the sign of the cross on their forehead and that there should be boxes for confession etc etc?

Presumably this grew out of Jewish synagogues and their tradition - but then where did it say that God said there should be a building and wailing and reading backwards and men separated from women, and a man in a dress etc etc?

And Protestantism - did Henry VIII ever claim that God spoke directly to him, to get rid of the trappings of RC? Did Luther? Or were they merely cultural changes, and it was a "Cometh the hour, cometh the man" type thing?(The hour being defined by Gutenberg and the printing press, Tyndale's bible, not to mention Lust, which tippeth the balance, especially if you have a thing for a lady with 6 fingers. ).

It's easy to see how religions evolve: but did God ask for them?Hope this is what you meant, Kim.

* credible ie not channeled to an 89 year old blind lady in 1973 inArkansas for instance, but rather to a 176 year old on his4th wifein 243BC in the Golan Heights. Perhaps.

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Hi Sharon,

Perhaps the reason why nobody's really answered Kim's question, is because it is unanswerable - everybody has a conception of what God is, but nobody really knows what it is. In that light, how could anyone be assured of which 'God' they're on about?

A paradox.

Love,
Patsy.
🙂

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

I reckon Patsy just hit the nail on the head. How can all agree when, in a world of freedom, there are different conceptions of God?

But my prime reply remains as in the post above. I've no interest in "religion" simply because something has existed for 1500 or 2500 years, but "religion" to me has come to mean not being alone on the spiritual Path, and being with like-minded people. Ergo, you are a group, and it may begin as just a dozen, but then it may just grow. Outsiders then call it a "religion" but they misunderstand perhaps that it is actually all about friendship and a gathering of friends. Or that's how it's happened in my life so far anyway! 😉

V

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

I guess for me being in a group of like minded people maximises my experience of god. Not sure how to explain that.....

Although we may be lacking evidence that god wanted us to form religions if our experience of god and our spirituality is enhavnced through meeting with others of like mind surely that is the god giving us evidence that this is what we should do.

Sorry hate the should word!!!! But isn't it said that when epople come together the power they exert is much greater than the units all acting indvidually. Perhaps it is an inherent knowing that this is true that draws us to each other.

If you consider us to all be one (whichI do) and part of god then it makes sense that drawing others to us is a way a expereincinf and communing with another part of good. This is made manifest in all life whether meeting with freinds fightingwith enemies or praying with fellow believers.

I have come to this point of view because at christmas i went to my friends christian church for carols and i found myself wishing that i believed in the same things they did sothat i could join this church because the atmosphere was so lovely.

Anyway have lost my track a bit and haven't got time to read it through so hope this makes sense!!

Our evidence is our experience......

Sunbeamx

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Sunbeam, hi,

Myself, I have written from very personal experience and I could not possibly convey that in a forum post. I do realise or feel that most people have not experienced the kind of community I have, and so I could not even begin to explain it.

But I am a veteran of such things. Oh, and one thing that occurres to me is to never get involved in a group who are not healthy or what the media calls a cult. I sure don't encourage that!

I don't want to sound as if I am losing my mind, LOL, but the very best times of my life have been with groups of people, maybe 8 or 12 of us, who were all on a similar spiritual track, and even lived in the same place or near each other. IMO you can't beat it.

It's a very personal issue to me right now as people I thought would form that around me all over again have not done so. But you keep hoping and believing!

V

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

So from what is being said here so far, one could conclude that people have spiritual experiences, which they have an overwhelming need to share with others, but are not directed to by the Being who is the source of the experience. To begin with anyway, some (eg V) do not wanttoo much organisation or formalisation of their worship: their prime reason for being together is to enhance their own experience and share with others. Somehow ritualisations of these relatively ad-hoc experiences develop into religion.

So to follow on from this, you could say that religions with all their organisations and rituals are not there because God has asked for them at all despite the fact that religious people engage in them nominally at least to please God.

The other explanation, that God actually demands all these different religions, leads to a possible theory that God has a bizarre form ofOCD. Or a Dattaswami God, where we are all here for His entertainment, a Divine form of SimCity.

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Hi Sharon,

You have identified an extremely important point - that 'god' does not exist outside of ourselves, but within us. David's point about being with like-minded folks who follow their own brand of belief, echoes those who follow a conventional religious belief - the deity is within them (or at least, within the belief-system of the group) and not outside of it. Therefore, everyone worships the 'same' god because the 'same' god, or perception of god, resides within them, and the belief system takes form and shape, under the auspices of a 'leader.' This in turn, creates a 'religion' and maybe the writing down of the doctrines and 'rules' about following the religion. The 'god' is still there within the group and within the individuals, but takes on a 'belief.' Competition between believers of different religions comes about when one group denies the other. However, the 'divine spark' dwells in all of them.

I agree wholeheartedly with David: there is nothing beat the meeting together of like-minded souls. One cannot beat it.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxxxx

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

I take your point Patsy, :Dbut this only has an internal logic for people who believe they are worshipping a divine spark within themselves.(Giles for instance).As soon as an external God is acknowledged as the source of their spiritual experience and worshipped - and this must surely be the case for most, certainly all the religions that I can think of (I'm not great at comparative religions, so there may be a flaw:D)- then there is a problem, once you look at it like this.
And if you are worshipping the divine spark within yourself - there is surely no need for organisation - it justmight be nicer to do it with some others, just like any other activity.

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

I take your point Patsy, :Dbut this only has an internal logic for people who believe they are worshipping a divine spark within themselves.(Giles for instance).As soon as an external God is acknowledged as the source of their spiritual experience and worshipped - and this must surely be the case for most, certainly all the religions that I can think of (I'm not great at comparative religions, so there may be a flaw:D)- then there is a problem, once you look at it like this.
And if you are worshipping the divine spark within yourself - there is surely no need for organisation - it justmight be nicer to do it with some others, just like any other activity.

Aha! Which leads me to question what evidence there is for any kind of external God? In other words, the flaw in Kim's question is what kind of evidence is there that any external god asked for anything at all??

I also prefer to believe that webeallone and agree with Venetian and Sunbeam that gathering together with others to connect with (and magnify) that universalsource, or oneness(the experience of whichmay bedescribed as'Divine LOVE'- but is really beyond words) is more powerful than any spiritual practice we can do alone. I would not however use the term 'religion' to describe such gatherings or satsangs or spiritual groups- nor indeed, the word 'cult'.

Kim seems to have disappeared- I wonder what she had in mind other than stirring up some debate?? 🙂

Karen

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Kim seems to have disappeared- I wonder what she had in mind other than stirring up some debate?? 🙂

Kim is busydoing something in Israel Cara. I've no idea what but apparently it's very important.

But thisis an interesting question - it would be good to have an input from someone whose God is not just in themselves.

S

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Hi Cara,

It's not exactly what I meant. I do believe in an "external" God. Or to be more accurate, that God is everywhere and in all of us, but you have to search and find It/Him/Her.

Don't worry about Kim :D- she starts these ideas late at night and then everybody else carries it on. 😀

V

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Hi Sharon,

Yes, it is when the 'internal god' becomes 'externalised' that people think of it as being outside of themselves and a creator. When enough people believe so intently in it, and who are guided by charismatic leaders, they begin to think of god as a separate being, instead of realising that 'god' is really ourselves. If it goes on for long enough, 'splinter groups' evolve and then begin to contest the 'word' of the 'first' leader, which is when men start to put their interpretations on to divine teachings (i.e. the teachings that come from within.')

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Hi Venetian

It's not exactly what I meant. I do believe in an "external" God. Or to be more accurate, that God is everywhere and in all of us, but you have to search and find It/Him/Her.

To me, 'everywhere and in all of us' speaks of oneness- wholeness- the universal consciousness. Whereas, an 'external' god speaks of separation and duality- the divine out there and us little humans down here.

I don't think there is a contradiction between 'out there' and 'in here' if everything is composed of energy, and quantum 'particles' can be in two places at the same time. The limited human mind has trouble with this seeming paradox but it seems many of us are getting the hang of non-duality: the both/and, rather than either/or approach. (Of course, many spiritual masters had the hang of this concept thousands of years ago ;))

I am wondering why you say we have to search to find it/him/her etc? If it's already who we are and within us why don't we just stop and look within? It's in the present moment, the now, in the awareness that is behind our thinking, feeling, acting etc, in the silence, in the space between thoughts -IMHO- or rather, in my (albeit limited) transcendant experiences.

I'm curious to hear more about the search

Best wishes

Karen

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

ORIGINAL: Cara

To me, 'everywhere and in all of us' speaks of oneness- wholeness- the universal consciousness. Whereas, an 'external' god speaks of separation and duality- the divine out there and us little humans down here.

It sounds to me as if I wrote that! :D- asI agree completely.

In reality there is no duality IMO. God has scattered himself like the bread of the gospels, and we are all a part of God.

But what is the serch about? That, Cara, is the great and universal search of all the mystics - that somehow we have lost touch with all that we really are, and let's face it - most people have totally forgotten. So the search is this wierd and wonderful process of, over time, becoming out real selves again.

Have been trying since I was 17, and it isn't easy! 😀

V

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

so what is God?

some authors i've read say religion (one external God/dess) has emerged when we lost our "garden of eden" age: that is when we became disconnected with nature. and aware of that loss. religion would bethe product of guilt. not referring to the modern age or machine's age, but when but when nature and humans became two. when there was an out and an inside, when spiritual experience meant to look inward rather than around us, when sacred dance was given up to be replaced by solitary meditative introspection. in brief, when nature stopped being the soucre and the means of our spirituality. historically, about the time the "great" civilisations arose: the Neolithic: 5000 BC.

of course, I think most people wouldfeel that no God has ever ordered such and such ritual and hierarchy.
if this was the case: we would have to agree that God/desses belong to a time and place, otherwise how to explain for the different beliefs, and number of deities worshipped (Allah, Christian God, the Trinity, Virgin Mary, Isis, Mithras, Hathor, Artemis, Zeus, etc)?
you have already given the answers: there is spirituality and there is Politics (power), or social order.

Would it not give us almost THE answer if we were able to travel back in the past, say 30 000 years ago, when artists created "art" inthose nearly inaccessible dark caves? when all their art seems to be primarily spiritual in value? What a stark contrast to this materialistic age, isn't it? what should a 30 000 woman or man have to say about "God"?

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Hi Fadette,

Hinduism would say that there are so many aspects to God - that God can't be simply or easily defined - that all the different Gods & Goddesses are simply ways of experiencing different aspects of God.

I've always like Sri Ramakrishna's attitude toward God: he basically accepted every view, just about, as being valid and useful to those who chose it. For example, a bit debate in India in the late 1800s revolved around "Does God have form? Or is God formless?" On face value those are two quite different views of God, but Ramakrishna accepted both, experienced both, and was able to reconcile the two. To him, God is 'formless and everywhere' but can also be experienced as Beings or in avatars, or would even be more present on a consecrated altar than elsewhere.

Venetian

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

agree

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

So, so far it seems nobody has been able to provide a source that is credible proof and evidence that God/divine ever asked for religion/organisation structure to be formed in the definition of organised religion?

Anyone got any idea of what the Mormons, JV's etc say about that?

I can add that the it does infer/state in the NT that buildings built on the foundations of God would come into the light of day and be destroyed. I witness this happening in these end times, churches becoming homes, art centres etc. The latest archaelogical finds appears to be one of the major influences on pulling out the bricks from the foundations of the structures that will in time will collapse; due to the organisational structures created by intermediaries not being a part of divine will but human will.

Even in Israel I witnessed a tide of change that is very promising for the freedom of the Spirit.

Divine Love

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

GOD didnt ask for religion, he asked that we be christ-like, and to love and to trust only in him!!

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

The better question to ask is..

What evidence is there to say that Man didn't use the concept of God as a tool to influence and Control people? Isn't this what the Romans already did and what many other forms of organizations do today and have done in the past?

Is there any wonder why the majority of the western civilization is dominant by Christians and why the majority of the societies there consider things that relate to the Bible to be right and wrong? Who was a Christian in the west prior to the European sailors? None. How many groups of Native Indians followed in their own traditions and religions prior to the European sailors? ALL. How many Blacks in Africa are Christians compared to the blacks brought to America? Next to none. How many Japanese and Chinese are Christians? Hardly any. How many Christians are in Turkey? Barley any. The list goes on.

[DLMURL] http://www.zenit.org/english/asia/stats2.html [/DLMURL]

Since ever society has some form of religion then chances are, you will be a follower of the dominate religion of that society. Let us say for instance that instead of being born and raised as a Christian but, as a Japanese child whos parents brought you up as a follower Shinto. Do you think you would be a Christian as you are now? Could you even bring yourself to believe in it. If you say yes then please answer the fact as to why there are only 1% of Christians in Japan since Christianity is the 'Most' popular religion of the World? Of course some children protest to their parents beliefs and go out on their own which is a SMALL amount but, this only proves just how religion is used to manipulate man for control over society.

What dictates Good and Evil? Obviously to a Christian Good and Evil are concepts created by God. However if you just look outside your beliefs and look at the many diffrent societies of the world then you can see how Good and Evil are also concepts created by man to control the masses. In America a dog is considered to be 'Mans best friend' and they cherish all dogs alike. When the population of Dogs become to heavy then America finds the need to put dogs to sleep. Its a very moral way of looking at things don't you think? Now would you consider it to be a Cold act if you took a dog and straped him to a pole and hit him over the head killing the dog to then eat him? I'm sure alot of you would say yes but, explain that to the people in a third world country like the Philippines. I'm sure according to a Christian that eating another human is blasphemy. Tell this to some tribes in the Amazon. Or perhaps it is infact simply nature that man does these so-called cruel acts.

Is a Gay person really choosing their own sexual preference? According to science it is simply natural.

How many straight Christians look at Gay Christians to be as equals? Or are you going to discriminate towards the gays just because of the nature?

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

its in my belief that it is wrong to be gay, for i read and believe in what my bible says on that subject. but, thats just what i believe! i have gay friends and i dont put them down for how they want to live! im sure they dont always agree on how i live. everyone is different in their beliefs whos to say whos right? i feel that i am, and you feel that you are,and thats ok! i just want to live my life the best way i know how and hope its good enough!

RE: What evidence is there that God asked for Religion?

Where does a child make a choice of their color when they are born into the world either black or white or of what bloodline? To say that being gay is wrong just contradicts reality since it is proven that even some animals are self aware and make choices for themselves that they can not choose to be gay or not or of whatever species they want.

Lets look at the choices of a cat when forced to live in a human civilization. Take a dormant house cat and compare it to a wild street cat. The Wild street cat knows how to survive when there is next to no food available. He fears many humans and doesn't know who to trust yet some street cats learn to trust humans afterawhile. You put the house cat who was born and raised to live by masters who feed it when he wants. Now the master then leaves this cat to live in the street all on his own. This house cat never relised what starvation was until it actually was in the situation without a choice to get out. Now the cat must learn to survive inorder to live by eating whatever is available without being picky. Whereas the street cat just doesn't care what it eats when it well knows that there is next to no food available. It has bad health because of this but, its the choice of life. You can easily relate this with any human bumb off the street. Yes cats are picky about what they eat. If they are in a position to eat only what's available then they won't hessitate. Just the same as a human.

Outside how alot of people look at intelligent animals.. wouldn't it be fair to say that we humans are unknowing of the true intentions of alot of animals yet answer alot of their actions as Instincts? Can you really explain the whole thinking process of a ant?

How is that not a choice when a cat is iggnorant to fire and touches it to then relize that it is harmfull and never touches the fire ever again. It is a self aware being just like any human and makes choices that it can. Only diffrence is that a human has evolved into a more intellectual being than any other species on the planet and considers the actions of lesser intellectual beings to not being capable of choice but, rather instinct when we ourselves don't fully understand the true thinking processes within so-called inferior animals.

"Of course, we have to make many seemingly artificial distinctions to arrive at our conclusion. Animals other than humans have no awareness that their sexual activities are connected with reproduction: They engage in sex because they're biologically driven to do so, and if the fulfillment of their urges produces a physical sensation we might appropriately call 'pleasure,' it isn't the least bit affected by the possibility (or impossibility) of producing offspring. We are also discounting cases in which animals do engage in sex even though reproduction is an impossibility because we claim there are other 'purposes' (of which the animals themselves are unaware) at play. (For example, the females of some species of birds will invite males to mate with them even after they have laid their eggs, but we ascribe a purpose to this behavior: this is a biological "trick" to fool males into caring for hatchlings they didn't father.) We also employ subjective terms such as 'willingly' and 'regularly' in claiming that bonobos and dolphins are the only other animals who "willingly (and regularly) engage in sex with each other" ... and even then it may be the case that these species have some other 'purpose' for doing so that we haven't yet discovered..."

Therefore .. how is it wrong? How can the Bible dictate what is wrong. Of course if you don't want to make your own decisions in life then of course anything someone says to you so convincing enough will be the truth unless you actually investigate in it.