We can say “NO” to swine flu – any flu

Spanish Flu and Christian Science

Principled -- you wrote:
A few years ago, I came across a book that was a compilation of Christian Scientists’ experiences during World War 1 and as I scanned through, towards the end, I came across one after another testimonies of healing of what people called Spanish ‘Flu.

Do you remember the name of the book? I'd really love to read it. I am trying to overcome my sense of fear about this flu news, and have decided to plunge back into my study of CS.

Thanks!

Good – glad to know that you all know that you are all on the Religion/Faiths pages – it’s just that from posts 9-17 (with the exception of Binah’s) I thought you all thought you were in the General Discussions or something…..

Do you remember this?

Big Pharma is already gearing up for the never-ending chariot ride to bigger profits.

Myarka, I’ve always admired and respected your great sense of altruism and the need to protect the vulnerable and dispossessed. Again, I would say that though at the moment no-one has been able to do it, Jesus fed thousands with a few loaves and fishes (and yes, I truly do believe he did and that one day, when someone once again achieves the full understanding of spiritual substance that he did, we will be able to do it again) He was no aesthetic with his head in the clouds – he saw a human need and he met it, whether that need was for food, healing, redemption or resurrection! That to me is true spirituality.

Yes, I’ve been talking about physical healing on this thread, but then it’s about swine flu for goodness sake – oink!

However, you have poverty at the top of your agenda. Good. I’ve just put “poverty” into the search box on and there are 109 articles on that one website about how to approach eliminating it through spiritual means. We don't ignore any inharmonious conditions. Often, prayer brings ideas that open up new avenues. Sometimes, it will bring a new job as it did when I went through a poverty experience. Other times, someone who is starving might look down at their feet and find a £5 note lying there etc.

I remember a radio interview where a Christian Scientist was in Kenya and feeling troubled by the sense of hopelessness caused by a three year draught. He continually prayed about true substance and the source of all supply and one day in the market, met a local church minister who was buying supplies for the orphans he homed. He invited the American to come back to the orphanage, where they prayed together in the little corrugated-roofed chapel. As they finished, a strange sound started – it was rain. That was the end of the draught and over the next couple of years too, all the children were found homes. To me, that is practical spirituality.
(And before you say it was just coincidence, well, all I can say is that when I pray, coincidences happen. When I don't, they don't! 😉

This is a story I just love which shows the practicality and effectiveness of scientific prayer:

The writer was living in an area of the ‘Near East’ and was troubled by the state of poverty and hopelessness she saw there. She daily saw a little urchin boy, dirty and penniless who was constantly asking for a job, but she knew that in his dirty state no-one would give him one. She felt that the few pennies she gave him were so inadequate. Then one day, she remembered Mary Baker Eddy’s wonderful description of how Jesus healed:

[COLOR="Blue"]Jesus beheld in Science the perfect man, who appeared to him where sinning mortal man appears to mortals. In this perfect man the Saviour saw God's own likeness, and this correct view of man healed the sick. Thus Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is intact, universal, and that man is pure and holy. (Science and Health p 476:32)

She realised that Jesus must have come across many people much like this young lad (this was in the same area of the world) She began to consider what Jesus would have done about this situation, how he would have thought.

“Surely he did not stand helpless, offering a few coins, mentally listing the human things that needed correction and searching for a means of communicating the truth. Instead, he turned completely from the picture before him and spiritually beheld man as he is, in all his beauty and cleanliness and health............”

“And suddenly there was light. There was nothing but light - the light of spiritual reality. So bright was the light that she was no longer aware of the boy or the place; she was not aware of saying goodbye or walking away from him. She was aware only of God's presence and of His spiritual, perfect universe.”

For a few days, she forgot all about the lad and then, when she next saw him, she was amazed. The sores that had been on his face were gone and everything looked new and clean. Clean clothes, body, teeth, hair.…..

“In her delight she exclaimed excitedly over his changed appearance and pointed to his clothes. “New!” “No new,” he said. “Wash.”

The words came out: “Who? Who told you to do these things?” It took him a moment to answer: “No man. No man tell.” Then, still searching for words, he looked upward, his gaze slowly following a great semicircle above. Then suddenly, joyously, he explained, “I” - and he pointed, not to himself, but upward - “I! I tell me.”
From “Spiritual Discernment” Christian Science Journal January 1954

This boy soon afterwards got a job and his whole life turned around.

Love and peace,

Judy

Principled -- you wrote:
A few years ago, I came across a book that was a compilation of Christian Scientists’ experiences during World War 1 and as I scanned through, towards the end, I came across one after another testimonies of healing of what people called Spanish ‘Flu.

Do you remember the name of the book? I'd really love to read it. I am trying to overcome my sense of fear about this flu news, and have decided to plunge back into my study of CS.

Thanks!

Thaxter - this is a pleasant surpise - welcome to HP! 🙂

I managed to find the book - CHRISTIAN SCIENCE WAR TIME ACTIVITIES (1922) By: The Christian Science War Relief Committee (not to be confused with another with a similar name of the Second World War of 1939-194).

Quite honestly Thaxter, that particular book is not the answer! Apart from the odd bits, it's about as interesting as watching paint dry. It has mainly countless reports from relief committees and rest centres.

There are some great discussions on swine flu on - have a look there.

Love and peace,

Judy

Myarka, I’ve always admired and respected your great sense of altruism and the need to protect the vulnerable and dispossessed. Again, I would say that though at the moment no-one has been able to do it, Jesus fed thousands with a few loaves and fishes (and yes, I truly do believe he did and that one day, when someone once again achieves the full understanding of spiritual substance that he did, we will be able to do it again) He was no aesthetic with his head in the clouds – he saw a human need and he met it, whether that need was for food, healing, redemption or resurrection! That to me is true spirituality.

It's true that the Jesus as described in the Bible healed the sick as a metaphore of the healing man needed to be reunited with God. The same Jesus who preached that we should love our neighbour as our selves, and that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kindom of heaven than a camel to pass through an eye of a needle.

The Jesus of the Bible is a wonderful example of how we should life, but he also taught the we should live in the age/time/culture that we live in "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and to God the things which are God's".

So I think the teaching is very clear, love and compassion of our fellow man kind. Our spiritual richness is by far greater than our meterial richness. In every age we're give oportunity to exercise our compassion and love. No time in history has the world had the resource to deal with inequalities as we have today.

In answer to V........

Human nature is complex, we can say there is good in all, we can say the is also evil in all, "there but for the grace of God go I". But one thing history has shown, world movements cause change, some for good, some for bad. Therefore, there is no reason why there can be no world movement to end hunger.

Is my view off topic?

IMO no, because while the world debates swine flu, the world turns its back on the poor.

Namaste,
Myarka.

Hi Myarka,

To be quite honest, I hadn't known till this thread, but "the poor" seems to be your measuring rod or 'main thing'. And to be honest, other people have their own prime concern, which doesn't mean neglecting or not caring about the poor. There are many many causes we can take up: it would be awful if all other good causes were neglected because everybody onlly looked at one. You may not discover this throughout your lifetime, but believe me, human problems are not permanently solved with human solutions. They'll just repeat, and repeat and repeat.

Your few lines on Jesus portray a person-loving man who helped, gave, and rendered. From the Gospels, he did all that - but he also had a simply immeasurable oneness with the Divine Source; and his main interest was to teach spirituality - the kingdom (consciousness) of God (within us). First he helped, then he taught people how to transform themselves so that they could help themselves by inner transformation and self-purification.

He didn't come just to eternally hand out loaves and fishes off lorries for thirty-three years, now did he! He had higher priorities. If he'd done that for 33 years, they'd still have been waiting for more when he'd gone. No, he came to teach people self-transformation.

Yes, "world movements cause change". And then they are gone. Because people haven't changed. Civilisations rise and fall - so far. Let's somehow get rid of all poverty then - such as in North Korea which we can't even enter unless it were by military invasion BTW? Once there's no poverty, what do we do about the hedonism among the newly non-poor? the warfare? the politicking (all these things leading back into poverty again, as it happens)?

It's a hamster wheel, but I can see you won't agree. Also, by now, I really do think poverty and the subject of poverty, and curing it by physical means only is off-topic, though you are free to continue, and I truly do respect your desire to help others of course. 🙂

Hi Judy,

I'm not in CS, but would just like to say that I agree with every word, including the quotes, in your post # 32 . It's precisely how I see, or try to always see, the world, and how I believe all good solutions are arrived at. 🙂 We appear to be navigating the same ocean here. 😉

V

Thanks for your post Myarka - indeed there has never been a better time than now for an increase in compassion, unselfishness, altruism, encouragement and above all, practical spirituality. In one of her books, Mary Baker Eddy begins the Preface with these words, which I'm sure you would agree with:

[COLOR="Blue"]A certain apothegm of a Talmudical philosopher suits my sense of doing good. It reads thus: "The noblest charity is to prevent a man from accepting charity; and the best alms are to show and to enable a man to dispense with alms." (Miscellaneous Writings ix)

She also identified the quote below as the secret of her life work:

[COLOR="Blue"]God has not given us vast learning to solve all the problems, or unfailing wisdom to direct all the wanderings of our brothers' lives; but He has given to every one of us the power to be spiritual, and by our spirituality to lift and enlarge and enlighten the lives we touch.
Philip Brooks

We appear to be navigating the same ocean here. 😉

Would that be the "infinite ocean of Love" then? :p

From an article by MBE on the three stages of baptism:

[COLOR="Blue"]The baptism of Spirit, or final immersion of human consciousness in the infinite ocean of Love, is the last scene in corporeal sense.... After this, man's identity or consciousness reflects only Spirit, good,...forever permeated with eternal life, holiness, heaven. (Miscellaneous Writings 205)

Thanks V for a really beautiful post, of which I too agreed with every word! Jesus mission was so much higher than just feeding the poor and healing the sick. Those were simply the natural outcomes of a life at one with Reality, a life freed from the slavery of material beliefs and living in the freedom and dominion of Spirit.

Love and peace,

Judy

Thanks for your post Myarka - ..... which I'm sure you would agree with:

I wholeheartedly believe that the greatest gift of charity is empowerment.

Myarka.

War Time Relief

Principled -- thanks for the tip! I will also check out the link. 🙂

After hearing so much about Mary Eddy Baker I decided to goggle and came up with the following:-

In addition I found some info regarding Spanish Flu:-

Now, I find it a little hard to understand MBE’s - Notable ideas - Spiritual Healing and the Rejection of Medical Drugs, Hygiene, and Procedures. .

I would be grateful if someone could explain why/how this would work regarding basic hygiene and procedures? I can understand someone rejecting medical drugs, as I've done this myself, but rejecting hygiene does take me by surprise.

As for my faith, I keep loosing and/or gaining as I keep questioning everything.

Fudge

Hi Fudge,

After hearing so much about Mary Eddy Baker I decided to goggle and came up with the following:-

I can't comment on what struck you from the Wiki entry as I'm not in CS. What I do notice (without any surprise) is that the Wikipedia article is the focus of a tug of war, and may at any time (as it will be changing over time) be biassed. That's the nature of Wikipedia. See the Discussion tab to the article and take a glance to get an idea of the disagreements behind the scenes (common to possibly-controversial Wiki entries).

Personally I only use Wiki references because they're handy, being freely available online. Well, actually, so many people partake in them that they often are better and more detailed, more insightful, than you'll get elsewhere. But the neutrality of Wiki entries is always worth questioning, if it's an entry with very different possible PoVs.

V

After hearing so much about Mary Eddy Baker I decided to goggle and came up with the following:-

In addition I found some info regarding Spanish Flu:-

Now, I find it a little hard to understand MBE’s - Notable ideas - Spiritual Healing and the Rejection of Medical Drugs, Hygiene, and Procedures. .

I would be grateful if someone could explain why/how this would work regarding basic hygiene and procedures? I can understand someone rejecting medical drugs, as I've done this myself, but rejecting hygiene does take me by surprise.

As for my faith, I keep loosing and/or gaining as I keep questioning everything.

Fudge

Rejecting Hygiene is a definite NO NO. who says that Jesus did not use Hygiene for healing. Jesus may well have washed his hands after a healing session.

As for the line

It is plain that God does not employ drugs or hygiene, nor provide them for human use;

This is IMHO not true. If MBE believed so much in Genesis then she would have read that god created the earth and all things on it, which unless I am missing the point means that God created all the natural drugs within the plants etc. Which would IMO been used by mankind and animals since the beginning of time, and many of these natural drugs have been used by many Pharmaceuticals. You could also say that as god created man, so he created mans ability to evolve. so IMHO In giving man that ability then science and medicine will also evolve. I do not therefore accept that being a believer in any faith will protect you from all ills. Yes I accept that there exists the word . But to believe that faith can directly cure all disease and illness is IMHO is very dangerous and decidedly not Christian nor Science.

Now, I find it a little hard to understand MBE’s - Notable ideas - Spiritual Healing and the Rejection of Medical Drugs, Hygiene, and Procedures. .

IMO These statements need to be put into context, have a look at some of the medical timelines published on the internet. In the 1860s very few linked hygene to health and many still thought diseases were transmitted through foul smells. Even aspirin hadn't been invented and the world had to wait to the next century before antibotics came in to regular use. Blood letting was still common place for many of common diseases.

The medical world was nothing like modern medicine and it was likely that if someone suffered from a serious disease or injury, they would die. Therefore, if someone survived or recovered it was seen as a miracle or God's will. So it would be highly probable if MBE lived in a different era, she may have drawn different conclusions.

I find these reports of healing interesting because it's like the person who plays the slot machines, they tell you they win, but they don't tell you when they don't. The biggest killer before the 20th century was infant mortality (IM) and still birth as it is now in the developing world. I would love to see some emperical data to show how CS has made a difference to IM without improving hygene?

Myarka.

Many thanks for the responses, Venetian I too use wiki as a quick reference, there were many, many more but I wanted to start somewhere.

Healistic and Myarka your opinions on how we evolve, putting thoughts and actions into the context of time are very easy to understand, whilst the slot machine makes perfect sense to me.

Fudge

We're rather off-topic!

Hi folks,

This was started as a thread on the Religion/Faiths pages for spiritual seekers to reassure them, in the midst of all this fear of contagion, that there is a spiritual means of protecting oneself. I have nowhere said we should not follow practical wisdom and hygiene to avoid contagion. However, this thread is now veering :offtopic:

On post 1, I included a number of links to articles about the nocebo effect, selling of sickness etc. But as another article stated:

..The purpose of our discussion isn’t to criticize medical professionals or particular medications. What we really want to accomplish here is to talk about the times when a disease is represented so often and so vividly that it can give the impression that sickness is inevitable or inescapable, and how to guard your thoughts in those cases.

I'm not going to start trying to defend Christian Science here, or answer all of your points - this is not the purpose of this thread. I may, if I find time, write something on the Christianity pages later (but then, quite honestly, you're probably all sick to death of this subject by now!) :D.

However, I feel that some further clarification is necessary:

First, it's very unfair to judge something when you have no personal knowledge of it and are just using a few quotes (often out of context) from various web sites, some of which, as Venetian pointed out, can be quite hostile (misunderstandings abound out there.)

Second, as Myarka says, health and hygiene were very different in the 19th century. This link gives you a glimpse of what a lottery life was:

People who went to hospital often didn't come out. In fact, Florence Nightingale (who lived at exactly the same time as Mary Baker Eddy and who is mentioned in Science and Health) said:

* It may seem a strange principle to enunciate as the very first requirement in a hospital that it should do the sick no harm.
o Notes on Hospitals 3rd Edition (1863), Preface

(I'm researching her life at the moment as part of the Great Lives Exhibition I wrote about a few months ago. She was a deep spiritual thinker as well as reforming health care through hygiene as she did. Here are some more quotes I find interesting:)

* Hospitals are only an intermediate stage of civilization, never intended at all even to take in the whole sick population.
o Sick-Nursing and Health-Nursing" (1893)

* It is health not sickness that is our natural state — the state that God intends for us. Quoted in FN a Radical Theologian 117

* ‘I am so glad to be in this age. I hope we shall last to see great discoveries, great increase in knowledge about the unexamined laws of the conversion between matter and mind. The laws of matter have been patiently sifted already’. Quote of FN found in the British Library in a letter to Hilary Bonham Carter April 6th 1846

Now I don't want to start a discussion on FN here either!

OK, to get back to the allegation (false) that we reject hygiene. Here are some excerpts from Science and Health, the textbook of Christian Science:

Here, Mary Baker Eddy quotes from a letter she had recieved:

[COLOR="Blue"]"I should have died, but for the glorious Principle you teach, --supporting the power of Mind over the body and showing me the nothingness of the so-called pleasures and pains of sense. The treatises I had read and the medicines I had taken only abandoned me to more hopeless suffering and despair. Adherence to hygiene was useless. Mortal mind needed to be set right. The ailment was not bodily, but mental, and I was cured when I learned my way in Christian Science."

What was termed "hygiene" then, was also a form of physical cure, which included hydropathy and the therapies of constant scrubbing and "rubbing to alter the secretions or to remove unhealthy exhalations from the cuticle" (some of the alternative treatments that MBE had tried in her search out of invalidism after the allopathic medicine of her day had failed her.)

She continues after the letter quote:
[COLOR="Blue"]
We need a clean body and a clean mind,--a body rendered pure by Mind as well as washed by water. (S&H 383)

"Cleanliness is next to godliness," but washing should be only for the purpose of keeping the body clean... Water is not the natural habitat of humanity. I insist on bodily cleanliness within and without. I am not patient with a speck of dirt; (S&H 413)

Crumbs, she should see my house! 😮

Also, let me try to explain why we do not combine physical treatment with our metaphysical system. First of all, we have the highest regard for what all medical practitioners are trying to do - after all, we all have the same aim - to relieve suffering. However, the two systems start from opposite premises and to try to combine them would be like trying to go on a sea voyage, with one foot in the boat and the other on the land! You end up not going anywhere and you could end up very wet too! :p

Trying to combine a treatment which begins from the basis of the reality of matter with one that begins with the reality of Spirit alone, isn't fair to either system and they actually work against each other. Having said that, we make our own decisions and if someone decides to have medical treatment if their metaphysical work hasn't been effective, that's fine. (As I said above, no, we do not have a 100% success rate - neither do doctors, and even Jesus' disciples who had the greatest teacher ever, weren't able to heal sometimes, like in Matt 17)

Many medical practitioners have become Christian Science practitioners. Their search for the meaning of life has been fulfilled and can be combined with what they love - helping to alleviate suffering and in a very practical and effective way.

Here is a link to an interesting article in the archives of HP (which is not at all religious). It's an interview with Dr. Robert Ennemoser, who was first a biologist, then a homeopath:

[url] The Search for Better Healing - An Empirical Approach[/url]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]As an empirical thinker, I had to explore Christian Science before I could judge it. When I began to read Science and Health, I saw that this would teach me how to do it - not only show me what was possible, but how to do it. Soon I was having healings....

One of my first healings was of a bee sting. One day I was out walking barefoot on the lawn, and a bee stung my foot. I was used to thinking in a biological way: If you inject poison into tissue, you have a certain effect. It was a clear-cut physiological process. But Science and Health said there was a higher law, which would totally block a lower law - a biological law. So what I had to do was go to this higher law, to this higher level of life, of freedom, and of peace and healing. In doing this mentally, I had a spontaneous healing. In a few minutes the pain was totally gone, and a swelling of tissue as normally is the case never occurred. So I saw to a certain degree that healing action occurred when you left the level of biological laws and went to the level of divine law. This is done on a purely mental level, and it brings about results on a physical level...

In a past issue of the Christian Science Sentinel, there is an interview with a former neurologist, titled “To be disease-free, learn about health.” He was very successful in his career, with offices in both Europe and Russia, yet he was dissatisfied at a deep spiritual level – he was searching. One day, at the hospital, he looked at the medical books on the shelves:

“All of a sudden this strange thought came to me. These shelves contain around 1,500 books - some of them I’d read from the first page to the last – and I’d studied a lot of those books. I realised that none of them contained any knowledge about health – they were all about disease. How could I promise to give anybody health if I’d never studied it? I’d always studied a corpse or disease. That was a revelation and very disturbing because I realised I was not in a position to give anybody health because I had never studied it. I had no idea about health.”

He is now a CS practitioner.

I don't know whether they are still continuing, but during the 90's and early 2000's, talks on Christian Science were given at the Spirituality & Healing in Medicine conference, presented semi-annually by Harvard Medical School and The Mind/Body Institute of Deaconess Hospital, and jointly sponsored by the John Templeton Foundation. This is one of those talks which gives a good background:

[url]Spiritual essence of the writings of Mary Baker Eddy[/url]

In this talk, Virginia Harris describes Mrs Eddy's great discovery in 1866, talks about how to pray effectively, then discusses in depth her own healing of the effects of a serious car crash and also of a fourteen year old called Linda who had been diagnosed with an arterial venous malformation. Here's an excerpt from Linda's healing:

I met Linda when she was 14 years old. She was suffering from what doctors had diagnosed as an arterial venus malformation. All of her life she had had debilitating and paralyzing head pains, and she’d missed a lot of school. She’d been receiving excellent medical attention, but the prognosis was one of little hope. Doctors said she would have to live with medication, CAT scans, and pain all of her life, and that she would never be able to have children. They proposed an experimental surgery that gave her only a 50 percent chance of survival. If she survived, she would have to have another operation within one week.

The family was desperate.

Linda’s mother worked in the same office building where I had my practitioner’s office. One day she came to my office, related the story to me, and asked me if I thought her daughter could be healed. Linda and her mother came to see me the next day.

The family had no particular religious affiliation. Linda knew very little about God or about spirituality. As I visited with her, we talked about God. We talked about healing ideas in the Old and New Testaments. We talked about healing for her....

We talked about what God is. She loved the idea of God as Father-Mother. She loved discovering that God was all-loving, that He was all-good.

She also loved thinking of herself as the child of God, pure, perfect, loved.

And lastly, she loved that idea of the relationship that each one of us has with God. We talked about thinking of herself more spiritually and what that meant for her health. She was also beginning to learn, through our weekly appointments, how to pray for herself.

Please read the whole talk to get all the details, but bascally, the outcome was that she was cured within three months. Today as an adult, she's married with two chldren.

Well, I hadn't intended to write so much - sorry! :rolleyes: But I hope you are now all assured that hygiene is a normal part of life for Christian Scientists and that we do not "reject" material medicine - it's just that, from experience, we have found that God is the greatest phyician! :p

Love and peace,

Judy

I have been thinking about how Jesus approached contagion. With Peter’s mother-in-law, who was suffering from a high fever, he “rebuked the fever” (no fear there – only authority!) and she was instantaneously healed and got up and waited on them. I’ve had so many instantaneous healings like that, so can certainly relate to it.

Then, how did Jesus approach lepers – a condition much feared as highly contagious in his day? Well, he reached out and touched them. That was unheard of – again, showing his compassion and total lack of fear, based on his understanding that there is a higher law and power than the laws of matter.

This week’s featured free broadcast from Christian Science RadioSentinel is titled:
‘Freedom from contagion’ and different speqkers share how they are praying.

It should remain online for three weeks from today (to the end of May) If anyone wants to learn more about the mental nature of contagion and disease and how to protect yourself through prayer, here is the link to the page

and then you need to click on:

Freedom from contagion #907

Love and peace,

Judy

Oops I tried to upload an image and it didn't work. It would help to read the instructions first, rather than later!

Hopefully a mod will delete this and I'll try again

Judy

This cute photo arrived in my In-box this morning and I couldn't resist trying to attach it (this is my first attempt)

In the spirit of Proverbs 17:22:

" A merry heart doeth good like a medicine:
but a broken spirit drieth the bones."

:rollaugh:

Judy

lol that's a funny picture!
:D:D:D

Just popped back as I noticed today that the audio programme "Freedom from contagion #907" is still on .

I now realise they are they for three months, not weeks as I thought! It's a series of interviews with people discussing this subject, and sharing healings. it last just under half an hour.

Love and peace,

Judy

I’ve just been listening to this talk by Mark Swinney. His lectures are always inspiring and he’s had some remarkable healings. I feel that he explains quite well here how to pray effectively (including freedom from ‘flu symptoms):

[url] Spiritual healing—more than a matter of faith[/url] (The talk is about an hour long)

This is a good article and healing of his: [url] Existence—the eternal now[/url]

A few years ago, I went to one of his talks and wrote down notes afterwards. (Mr Swinney has given me permission to share this)

The talk was about effective prayer and the difference between the prayer of petition – that most use and prayer as we understand it in Christian Science – the prayer of affirmation. He started off talking about the disciples asking Jesus why they hadn’t been able to heal the epileptic boy. He went on to describe how Jesus said " Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement." and explained what that meant.

He told of how he and his family went to a museum in Florence where they had a model of the Universe by Ptolemy which had the earth as the centre of the Universe and he explained that if you tried to make calculations from it they would always be wrong as the premise was wrong. He also told of visiting the Sistine Chapel in Rome and the painting of Creation by Michaelangelo and how because people used deductive reasoning, they felt that as Adam was created material by God "in His image and likeness" that therefore God had a material body too, so he painted the ceiling with the famous painting of the two fingers not quite meeting. (The belief of man separated from God, when actually, we are one.)

He quoted from Science and Health 262 "The foundation of mortal discord is a false sense of man's origin." so he said you could reason that the foundation of harmony is a correct sense of man’s origin.." Using the parts in the Bible where God is called Spirit, Life and Mind and explaining how we are God’s thoughts, the perfect expression of His being he explained about prayer in Christian Science, being so clear that there is never any problem to pray about, just the need to yield to Jesus words "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

He ended telling of two healings in his own family. He had a deformed foot and stated praying the prayer of petition which had no result. Then he found Christian Science and understood we need to go higher than the prayer of petition for our prayers to be affective. We need the prayer of affirmation – to affirm our wholeness and completeness as the image and likeness of God. He started praying with S&H 244 "Inasmuch as God is good and the fount of all being, He does not produce moral or physical deformity; therefore such deformity is not real, but is illusion, the mirage of error." and prayed with that statement of truth for years and years, feeling inspired but then looking at the foot to check whether it had been healed. Finally, he was still and listened and God said something like this to him "Why do you keep telling me about your foot Mark? Don’t you know I created you perfect?"

He then understood that as Mary Baker Eddy says on p 372 of S&H: "How, then, …. can we believe in the reality and power of both Truth and error, Spirit and matter, and hope to succeed with contraries? " A few days later, while putting on his shoes and socks he saw that the foot was completely normal.

The next healing was of his newborn daughter who was born with both feet deformed. He realised that somewhere along the line he had allowed the belief that he had had something to do with her creation to enter his thought which gave it all the baggage of DNA etc. By the next day, the baby had two perfect feet and later took up ballet dancing.

And here’s an article that mentions this healing:

[url] I confess: I'm spiritual. And so are you.[/url]

Love and peace,

Judy

Thanks Rosie and Caroline - and welcome to HP Caroline! Great about your son. 🙂

Interestingly, Mary Baker Eddy (whose works I am a student of) started on the road to metaphysical healing through her experiments with homeopathy where she saw how our beliefs influences our bodies.

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy
I'm a little late into this thread, but would you mind explaining why you think that homeopathy is just a mind influence, and not a result of some organic effect. Is it because Mrs Eddy thought so.

Please keep in mind that Quantum theory, string theory, and the mathematically proved dimension theories were not available during Mrs Eddy's time. Nor were the computer models that show planetary configurations unique to earthy events.

Hi Scomm, I'm on holiday at the moment, without all my usual files and search tools, so it would be difficult to answer you until I get home next week. However, can you tell me why you think that homeopathy works?

Thanks

Judy

Hi Scomm, I'm on holiday at the moment, without all my usual files and search tools, so it would be difficult to answer you until I get home next week. However, can you tell me why you think that homeopathy works?

Thanks

Judy

Hi Judy

I know that you are CS and as such abide by Mrs Eddy's teachings.
However, if I am correct, Mrs Eddy acknowledges homeopathy as having a limited influence. She did not dismiss it outright.

Many years ago I tried homeopathy in an attempt to resolve a very difficult problem. I had no actual faith in the process, but suddenly noticed that the irritating symptoms were gone. I have since used homeopathy with less than remarkable results.

After being involved with, and trying to unlock the science of Spiritualism , I directed my reasoning towards Homeopathy.

The first thing that I concluded was that the skill of homeopathy diagnosis was far more complex than conventional medicine, and in my opinion is the reason that homeopathy does not have as good a track record as it should have.

I may not be supported with the following but I have never heard a better explanation of how it works.

First, every organ or tissue sample in the (mortal) body operates at its own resonant frequency, or in some cases multiple frequencies. It is the job of the practitioner to identify what is the root cause of the in harmony, be it an organ, or some other bodily part. He then has to match a corresponding resonant substance. This is where "like for like" appears.

My theory uses the science that resonances, if in phase amplify, and can correct distortion. (bring it in phase). I conject that it is this process that realigns the dis harmony in the body.

Many theorists argue that the dilutions are too small as to be of consequence. This is where Quantum mechanics has thrown new light as mathematically new levels of energies have been identified, much smaller than was previously thought. Resonances work best when the fundamental wavelengths match. The fundamental wavelengths of the body are probably far smaller than previously thought., so the more dilute the potion the better the effect. Maybe even getting down to memory levels.

Post material science appears to be the new kid on the block as regards knowledge in attempting to bridge the gap between thought and matter Metaphysics.

Getting back to CS. I have not yet abandoned a belief that even as mortal man is regarded as a thought projection, albeit a counterfeit image. There is a divine acknowledgment of the existence of an obligation of mortal man that happens to present itself as what we see as mortal man.

Thoughts are exchangeable and the science of homeopathy in my opinion touches on this. A mind influence could be reasonably involved but at what point does the mind and matter cross....

I do concur however that properly understood and applied CS must be as a searchlight to a homeopathic candle.

Regards

Hello Scommstech,

From what I know of Mary Baker Eddy's life (I'm also a Christian Scientist), she practised homeopathy quite extensively, and experimented with it a good deal, before her discovery (as she called it) of Christian Science. Like many theorists, as you mentioned, she concluded that in homeopathy "the drug is frequently attenuated to such a degree that not a vestige of it remains. Thus we learn that it is not the drug which expels the disease or changes one of the symptoms of disease." (Science and Health (S&H), pp. 152-3)

It's an intriguing theory you brought up, that at the "quantum" level, perhaps matter and energy work in different ways and so the most minute doses really are more effective. Mrs Eddy came to a different conclusion, however, when she found her homeopathic treatments to be effective not only when they were more diluted (attenuated), but when the "drug" she used was a substance with no medicinal properties, like salt or sugar! :p

Here are a couple of passages in which she describes these experiences:

[COLOR="Blue"]The author has attenuated Natrum muriaticum (common table-salt) until there was not a single saline property left. The salt had "lost his savour;" and yet, with one drop of that attenuation in a goblet of water, and a teaspoonful of the water administered at intervals of three hours, she has cured a patient sinking in the last stage of typhoid fever. The highest attenuation of homoeopathy and the most potent rises above matter into mind. This discovery leads to more light. From it maybe learned that either human faith or the divine Mind is the healer and that there is no efficacy in a drug. (S&H p. 153)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]A case of dropsy, given up by the faculty, fell into my hands. It was a terrible case. Tapping had been employed, and yet, as she lay in her bed, the patient looked like a barrel. I prescribed the fourth attenuation of Argentum nitratum with occasional doses of a high attenuation of Sulphuris. She improved perceptibly. Believing then somewhat in the ordinary theories of medical practice, and learning that her former physician had prescribed these remedies, I began to fear an aggravation of symptoms from their prolonged use, and told the patient so; but she was unwilling to give up the medicine while she was recovering. It then occurred to me to give her unmedicated pellets and watch the result. I did so, and she continued to gain. Finally she said that she would give up her medicine for one day, and risk the effects. After trying this, she informed me that she could get along two days without globules; but on the third day she again suffered, and was relieved by taking them. She went on in this way, taking the unmedicated pellets, — and receiving occasional visits from me, — but employing no other means, and she was cured. (S&H p. 156)

From experiences like these, Mrs Eddy concluded that the efficacy of homeopathy - and ultimately of any matter-based remedy - derives from the doctor's faith in the drug, the patient's faith in the drug and/or the doctor, or even from the weight of humankind's collective belief in the beneficial (or detrimental) effects of particular material substances. Essentially, she was exploring the placebo effect, decades before it was given that name.

I can think of an article or two about the placebo effect, and the puzzles it raises, from a medical perspective - I'll be happy to look them up again and post the links if you or others are interested. But the point here is, Mrs Eddy eventually concluded that true and complete healing comes from stepping right out of this model of a human mind influencing a physical body, and instead recognising oneself as the wholly spiritual creation of God, the one all-good divine Mind.

I've only once tried a homeopathic remedy myself, well before I knew about Christian Science healing: garlic and horseradish capsules for chronic hayfever. I can tell you their only noticeable effect was a bad taste in my mouth! Some "mainstream" medications helped somewhat, but I'd already noticed that their effectiveness seemed to vary according to whether or not I believed they would work. (There was one brand of tablet my mum swore worked for her; I didn't like it at all - another bad-tasting one - and sure enough, it didn't work for me.) Christian Science, on the other hand, finally freed me.

Sorry this is a bit long, but I hope it's all helpful! 🙂

All love, Charis

Hello Scommstech,

But the point here is, Mrs Eddy eventually concluded that true and complete healing comes from stepping right out of this model of a human mind influencing a physical body, and instead recognising oneself as the wholly spiritual creation of God, the one all-good divine Mind.

Hi Charis

I couldn't agree more with your post....The only observation I would add is from my own reasoning.

Many scientific minded people are now becoming aware of the very strong possibility of a connection between what is considered mind and what is considered matter. I cannot see God, not making himself available to any presentation (mortal man). For this to be true mortal mind (awareness) has to have divine recognition.....

If as is now being suspected by the scientific fraternity, awareness or thought has an empathy with matter then God must be sympathetic to matter. Hence the availability of Spiritual, and placebo type healings to mortal man, albeit through thought process...

But, as Christian Scientist are proving, the Spiritual is the more potent why then bother with placebos or homeopathy. As Mrs Eddy said, why seek the squire, when the king is available.

Regards

Hi Judy
I'm a little late into this thread, but would you mind explaining why you think that homeopathy is just a mind influence, and not a result of some organic effect. Is it because Mrs Eddy thought so.

Please keep in mind that Quantum theory, string theory, and the mathematically proved dimension theories were not available during Mrs Eddy's time. Nor were the computer models that show planetary configurations unique to earthy events.

Hi Scomm,

I'm back, but not yet with the time I need. Charis gave you an excellent answer and I'm sure I can join in there, but was just wondering what you meant by this:

Nor were the computer models that show planetary configurations unique to earthy events

With the progress in natural sciences, here is an article you may find interesting:[url]Do the sciences have a monopoly on truth?[/url]

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Scomm,

I'm back, but not yet with the time I need. Charis gave you an excellent answer and I'm sure I can join in there, but was just wondering what you meant by this:

Hi JUdy, Glad to see you back.

The model I'm referring to is a computer model of the universe designed to study planetary magnetic (energy) fields with a view to finding out if, and how, man is effected by these fields. Similar to the navigational abilities demonstrated by migrating birds and other species. The model was commissioned by an astronomer. The model was capable of turning back the clock on planetary configurations, and the astronomer moved the date to the time of Jesus.

The model showed in the year approx AD-3 a triple planetary conjunction..A conjunction is when all the planets line up, and to earth would appear as a single bright star. He believed that this would happen every 2000 years, becoming part of our Zodiac.

This is what he believed was the signal that led the wise men to seek out Jesus. They did not know it was Jesus. The stars configuration only told them of a great birth in Judah.

This to me was the conformation of the birth of a very great man, who we now know was Jesus. I have always preferred a scientific proof to blind faith..

This also led me to consider that the universe is not haphazard and in a sense has it's own form of intelligence...It was created, or is a result of God's idea.

On the CS forum there is a thread "Post Material Science". The link is to a society that is attempting to organize a complete rethink on the concept of matter and thought (spirit). That forum is willing to examine ideas from all faiths in an attempt to understand the interaction between thought and matter.

They are not in a sense looking at the dream from within the dream rather acknowledging that we may be limited by our material dream, and consequentially need to consider all ideas for a better holistic understanding. Hence the inclusion of faith concepts.

CS's main thrust is in the field of healing, through the understanding of the true idea of man, as God's creation. But it may not stop there, as God's ideas and creations by definition have to be unlimited.

Phew

Back to you.
Regards .

The model showed in the year approx AD-3 a triple planetary conjunction..A conjunction is when all the planets line up, and to earth would appear as a single bright star. He believed that this would happen every 2000 years, becoming part of our Zodiac.

This is what he believed was the signal that led the wise men to seek out Jesus. They did not know it was Jesus. The stars configuration only told them of a great birth in Judah.

This to me was the conformation of the birth of a very great man, who we now know was Jesus. I have always preferred a scientific proof to blind faith..

That's interesting. There have also been many archeological discoveries that confirm places and times of accounts in the Bible. While we have to be aware that most Bible accounts came from oral history and events were often not written down for decades, so details may differ, it's the spiritual thread of the superioriity of the power of Spirit over matter that I feel is most important. Thanks to Christian Science and the healings that are happening every day, all over the world, I have no problem believing those accounts in the Bible to be true. However Scomm, you are reminding me of old Thomas: 😉

John 20:
24 One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came.
25 They told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.”
26 Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said.
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!”
28 “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.
29 Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.”

Well I don't know what all this has to do with swine flu, but there you are! 🙂

Judy

CS's main thrust is in the field of healing, through the understanding of the true idea of man, as God's creation. But it may not stop there, as God's ideas and creations by definition have to be unlimited.

Hi again Scommstech,

I would say Christian Science definitely doesn't stop there! 😀

Healing may be the most outwardly obvious feature of Christian Science's practice, but Mrs Eddy makes clear throughout her writings - and I would agree even from my relatively limited experience - that it isn't really the main thrust. The main thrust of Christian Science is actually to discover the unlimited nature of God and of His/Her ideas. And that is where healing in Christian Science comes from. Every time some kind of disease or discord is overturned and healed through scientific prayer, it's because - even if we ourselves don't fully comprehend it at the time! - a clearer glimpse of that unlimited, pure, spiritual reality has broken through.

Judy, I agree, this discussion seems to have gone a long way off swine flu, but at least it's still about spiritual healing and how it works! 😉

All love, Charis

Hi everyone, while doing an internet search for Nocebos today, this thread from over ten years ago seemed very topical with the epidemic of fear that is encircling the world today.

Sadly many of the links here don't work any more, but I'll look up any that I feel would be helpful and re-post them.

I'll leave this for a while so you have a chance to read through and then pop back. Meanwhile, this is the sort of epidemic we should decide to start:

Smiling Is Infectious
Author Unknown

Smiling is infectious,
you catch it like the flu,
When someone smiled at me today,
I started smiling too.

I passed around the corner
and someone saw my grin.
When he smiled I realized
I'd passed it on to him.

I thought about that smile,
then I realized its worth.
A single smile, just like mine
could travel round the earth.

So, if you feel a smile begin,
don't leave it undetected.
Let's start an epidemic quick,
and get the world infected!