The Seeking Life's Big Question.

You been pondering Sacrel!

Questions endless questions. Everyone is busy trying to find answers. Nobody ever does! It is impossible to have all your questions answered.
However there is another dynamic. The questions drop. The need to have answers can vanish. It can completely disappear so that life becomes enough unto itself.

Questions are not there because they really are there...it is the unsettled mind, oblivious of its own roots trying to understand the whole- it unsettles it more.
Knowledge does not quench deep questions it ignites them more. If answers do come at all, they come out of unknowing. Unknowing is vast like an ocean and our mind is like a wave in the ocean. The wave does not qualify to know the depth of the ocean for simple reason that it is too busy and shallow. For the wave there is a perception of a journey, effort, questioning, getting somewhere. Such is the nature of mind. It has to do, solve, achieve things while Unknowing/No-mind/whole is ever at rest. No questions striving, effort, answers, love-hate, success failure there. is there?

You are right there is this urge/pull of something more than the body...
The ocean calls the wave. The wave is trying to be the ocean...to know it all, understand it all, have grips of the whole...doing spiritual courses, meditations, great philosophies ... and rest of blah

The only way to know anything is to unlearn and do away all the junk that has imposed itself on you- the entire conditioned mind. The wave would have to become ocean to know the ocean. There is no other way. It would have to die unto itself.. It can never know the ocean while it is still a thrashing, crashing, roaring busy bee wave! In other words its attachment to being a wave causes all the questions. It will have to stop and lie down and then it is whole, was whole, couldn't be anything else. but its own sense of separation causes all the tumult, noise, questions, pangs to achieve, resolve,áttain..
No answers serve anything. The questions must drop. Such is the game.

Your true nature has a call that gets hushed by all the learning- all kinds of learning spiritual and all. All the learnt tricks mental and spiritual ones satisfy for a while a while but the emptiness of all promises come to haunt you again. until one goes beyond the shackles and restrains of learnt, borrowed knowlege

How we became aware? It is how it is. Animals are aware too in their own way. The constant playfulness of creation!
Purposeless existence. Conditioned Mind alone gives it a purpose. All kinds of purposes-spiritual, healing the planet, healing fellow humans...all kinds... creation is childlike and playful, utterly purposeless

Hi Sacrel

Beliefs are created as soon as we are able to start forming choices, then we start to create our core way of being, we perceive behaviour in others and make a choice concerning self, that choice creates a belief, the belief in itself is transient in that it can change or adapt to meet the next part of our life experience, but if the beliefs are attached to judgements as in we have been told that something is right or wrong, then they are more stubborn and can create a lasting problem within the fullness of self through the conflicts that they set up within us.

A judgemental belief cannot be knocked out of someone, but they can be transformed with the help of someone else, but that has more to do with the judgement that is underpinning the belief, being transformed so that the belief is no longer being triggered through our core way of being.

If someone has been taught that they are not good enough, then if they choose to embrace this judgement within the fullness of self they will create a core way of being surrounding the judgemental belief that they are not good enough. If we rationalised with them that this is misguided, then they will attempt to change their belief into something else as with the law of attraction and give themselves a bump on the head, for they are trying to use the same consciousness that has set up the judgement to create something else without changing the underlying judgemental core way of being, transform the judgement and the belief can change or dissipate.

If we could dispense with the modern way of living, so that we went back to a time when we were simple hunter gatherers, then we would not be much different from the other beings that exist upon this planet, we would spend our time hunting for food whilst trying to avoid becoming food, moving from one place to the next when the food got scarce, looking to reproduce ourselves and enjoy playing when we had achieved our goal of finding food and shelter for the day's need.

Plants, insects, birds and animals that share the same consciousness that we do, tend to live in the now or present moment, they are in tune with the rhythms of the planet, if something happens it happens, it is dealt with and it is replaced by the next experience. We used to be the same, but we no longer follow a lunar calender or migrate with the seasons, we have become largely disconnected from this life experience, we have become static, much like our judgemental beliefs hold us in a place of judgement that creates pain and suffering, so life passes us by.

Awareness is consciousness, but we often only perceive the tip of the iceberg, we are taught to look outward for information and answers, so we do not take the time to evaluate self. If we stop for a while and choose to look within and explore the fullness of self and go beyond the remit of the thinking mind aspect of consciousness to perceive the fullness of self, then when we have achieved that we find that we can perceive the fullness of everything, where all is one within consciousness and we are all a thread within the tapestry of life. 🙂

I would not say that human beings have so much awakened in these present times, but have fallen asleep to what lies within the fullness of self and through doing that, they have fallen asleep to what lies within the fullness of everything.

Hi Jnani/Paul:)

Thanks for your replies. Quite profound and clearly a lot of knowledge and experience.

Going one step back, everything we learn, the judgements we make, the first choice we made, we can relate to in the here and now, the many questions each person asks, the answers everybody is trying to find we can relate to in the way of similar behaviours, but is it possible that we cannot find the source to the beginning of our behaviours?, the root to our first choice, the creation that created thought? .

We can never be sure? Even if we say I have found truth in order to express truth.
Once we let go of the seeking, once we accept that life just is, to be content, to have a ‘knowing’, if we unlearned everything that we learned, becoming aware of what now is, in whatever state of mind or a seeming no mind a person is, there is always that little voice that draws an intuitive feeling ‘Is what I am feeling, experiencing really what I feel it is?.you have no frame of reference to compare or prove, if you did how would you know it also to be correct?

‘I wonder if People who express they have found god must have that inner little voice of reason that says ‘there is always an element of doubt you know, there is always the question of confirmation you still need.’

The closest I feel we could come to a truth is to believe that ' The mind needs to die and if what is found is real we must have all knowledge of everything there is to confirm that what we think we know is truth'. even this is an idea that cannot be confirmed.

And at only arriving at this point ‘if there is one’ can we know truth of all things.
It’s not what we write today, it’s not what we say today, past present or future. It how we came to be?.

To awaken, to become conscious is not the question, but what before consciousness? Is there a possibility that as I referred to the ‘something’ is the reason that ‘we are’?

As we discuss, as we write our truths, as we believe all of this must have come from somewhere and the question I feel we can never answer. Hence our continuous seeking conscious or unconscious till parting from life.

One may proclaim a higher state of mind, to have found god, to connect with spirit, as a human with a created consciousness (started from somewhere, sometime,) will I feel always be haunted by the question of doubt.

However everything I imagine maybe completely wrong.:rolleyes:

Thanks for your replies quite an interesting profound discussion.

Blessings

Sacrel

Ooo, interesting discussion. 🙂

I'll have to come back to it as busy preparing Mother's day stuff.

Nice one Sacrel

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Jnani/Paul:)

Thanks for your replies. Quite profound and clearly a lot of knowledge and experience.

Going one step back, everything we learn, the judgements we make, the first choice we made, we can relate to in the here and now, the many questions each person asks, the answers everybody is trying to find we can relate to in the way of similar behaviours, but is it possible that we cannot find the source to the beginning of our behaviours?, the root to our first choice, the creation that created thought? .

We can never be sure? Even if we say I have found truth in order to express truth.
Once we let go of the seeking, once we accept that life just is, to be content, to have a ‘knowing’, if we unlearned everything that we learned, becoming aware of what now is, in whatever state of mind or a seeming no mind a person is, there is always that little voice that draws an intuitive feeling ‘Is what I am feeling, experiencing really what I feel it is?.you have no frame of reference to compare or prove, if you did how would you know it also to be correct?

‘I wonder if People who express they have found god must have that inner little voice of reason that says ‘there is always an element of doubt you know, there is always the question of confirmation you still need.’

The closest I feel we could come to a truth is to believe that ' The mind needs to die and if what is found is real we must have all knowledge of everything there is to confirm that what we think we know is truth'. even this is an idea that cannot be confirmed.

And at only arriving at this point ‘if there is one’ can we know truth of all things.
It’s not what we write today, it’s not what we say today, past present or future. It how we came to be?.

To awaken, to become conscious is not the question, but what before consciousness? Is there a possibility that as I referred to the ‘something’ is the reason that ‘we are’?

As we discuss, as we write our truths, as we believe all of this must have come from somewhere and the question I feel we can never answer. Hence our continuous seeking conscious or unconscious till parting from life.

One may proclaim a higher state of mind, to have found god, to connect with spirit, as a human with a created consciousness (started from somewhere, sometime,) will I feel always be haunted by the question of doubt.

However everything I imagine maybe completely wrong.:rolleyes:

Thanks for your replies quite an interesting profound discussion.

Blessings

Sacrel

There is no Truth as such to be found. It just Is. It is expressed asTruth because it is eternal, ever, constant, never changing, beyond time, beyond understanding of references so beyond references. . It is however is called Truth because it is negation of all 'lies' that we are forced to learn to function in the society- lies of Personal identity that is a bunch of all beleifs, identities, concepts and so on... Truth is essentially nahilistic in nature...Net neti...neither this nor that until you fall back in with what cannot be negated but is an essential emptiness in nature....until you arrive at what you cannot create, modify, change, own, enhance, decrease, cut, kill, improve ....or even express in any words of any language.

You ask how one knows? Question is how will you not know? When you are home, you are home, at rest, at peace, utterly silly and utterly in the unknown...wise no more, spiritual no more, mundane no more. Nothing and yet everything all at once.

There is no Truth as such to be found. It just Is. It is expressed asTruth because it is eternal, ever, constant, never changing, beyond time, beyond understanding of references so beyond references.

You ask how one knows? Question is how will you not know?

Hi jnani

I understand where you are coming from and totally agree. 🙂

What we say and how we express what is true to each of us I feel must come from somewhere?. Even though I can relate to what you say and everyone else in someway. Likeminded or not have we ever considered 'where did I get this knowledge that I feel and express'?

Ok we may say books, teachings, experiences etc, I too would say the same, but even all these things had to start from somewhere.

When you mentioned ' there is no truth to be found, it just is' forgive me for asking but how do you know?. 'Ever constant,never changing, beyond time, beyond understanding ' what experience has led you to know this? as a seeker myself I too as many others become triggered within by the possibility 'Have I found it?'. in turn questioning' where did they find it'? and how could a person know without knowing everything and all that there is? to recognise truth without question! how could the finding of truth be comapred with an internal frame of reference?

I have come accross people who continue to seek who may say things like ' I am more awakened than you therefore I see and know' or ' You cannot know because you ask' or 'you cannot know until the mind is quiet' or ' let go from the material world and see' or ' medtitate and believe'. In all these references made by a human being they must in my view had to have known everything that is in order to make such references. They must be godlike, omnipresent like in order to make such statements. I am speaking of the spiritual community worldwide.

Many people commonly claim to certain beliefs quite frequently with an unmost certainty. yet I wondered how many have had this inner thought of ' but do you really know? you know you cannot hide my voice which speakes to you that questions your living beliefs, I will always be here when you release your self created beliefs reminding of your next creations'.:rolleyes:

I am expressing the fact that anything we say, anything we proclaim, any beliefs and ideals of truth cannot be proved because of our lack of knowing all and everything what is in order to make self claims as these.

My thoughts here are I wonder how we really think about our beliefs? I wonder how we can express the beliefs and truths we believe knowing in reality we can never prove. If we say we can prove then do we question as to what this proof is and its origins.

Maybe we use labels about things because without labels we cannot self identify, this I agree.

I just wondered as well as myself included if when people share what we feel is spiritual discussions leading to growth, I wondered what growth do we determine it is? a growth in or spiritual knowledge according to what we know in the world? a growth so that we can show we are more knowedgable in spiritual matters to other people? to become teachers of self creations of what we think is truth? what do we gain from this? I wonder if the spiritual side of humans exploration,experience, growth stays within should I say 'the worldly realm' How much of the spiritual exploration, experiences and growth does actually make a breakthrough to the in my view real question, The proof to all our seeking.and even what we accept as proof also is questionable.

Good discussion:)

Blessings

Sacrel

Hi jnani

I understand where you are coming from and totally agree. 🙂

What we say and how we express what is true to each of us I feel must come from somewhere?. Even though I can relate to what you say and everyone else in someway. Likeminded or not have we ever considered 'where did I get this knowledge that I feel and express'?

That is your truth, not the Truth then.

Ok we may say books, teachings, experiences etc, I too would say the same, but even all these things had to start from somewhere.

Yes they start with an experience of truth but they tell you not the Truth for truth is inexpressible. Not possible to be stated, explained or described. What books do are just pointers. But most books and knowledge from them become traps and add to smugness that I know so much or I have wisdom, or I teach spiritual teachings...Truth cannot be taught it is an infection...Truth is arrived at by unlearning not by learning more. So books only add to delusion...ultimately that is! For a time they might answer a few questions here and there

When you mentioned ' there is no truth to be found, it just is' forgive me for asking but how do you know?. 'Ever constant,never changing, beyond time, beyond understanding ' what experience has led you to know this? as a seeker myself I too as many others become triggered within by the possibility 'Have I found it?'. in turn questioning' where did they find it'? and how could a person know without knowing everything and all that there is? to recognise truth without question! how could the finding of truth be comapred with an internal frame of reference?

How do I know? If I was to tell you that you still wouldn't be any wiser. lets just say It found me a few years back. It revealed Itself.
The old trickerty of "have I found it?" yes, that one! Finding of Truth is a dissolving, not necessarily, aha I found you! The seeker dissolves into It. Noone enters sees Truth and cntinues as before. It is the death of deaths.

I have come accross people who continue to seek who may say things like ' I am more awakened than you therefore I see and know' or ' You cannot know because you ask' or 'you cannot know until the mind is quiet' or ' let go from the material world and see' or ' medtitate and believe'. In all these references made by a human being they must in my view had to have known everything that is in order to make such references. They must be godlike, omnipresent like in order to make such statements. I am speaking of the spiritual community worldwide.

"More awakened than you- or yoyu are not awakened" are just pointers to ignorance of who claims that.
Be silent and kniow is true. Noone knows until mind is not only quiet but actually thicka s a rock or a brush, whichever you prefer. I personally prefer thick as *!
They must be God-like is just a projectionn of mind. It is only omnipresent that prevails everywhere...without exception...the division is only in mind. realiyy is one continuum. Don't speak of spiritual community or any other community, for communities are made of all sorts of individuals...searh of Truth must continue quietly, steadfastly, steadily. It is terribly personal quest.

Many people commonly claim to certain beliefs quite frequently with an unmost certainty. yet I wondered how many have had this inner thought of ' but do you really know? you know you cannot hide my voice which speakes to you that questions your living beliefs, I will always be here when you release your self created beliefs reminding of your next creations'.:rolleyes:

I am expressing the fact that anything we say, anything we proclaim, any beliefs and ideals of truth cannot be proved because of our lack of knowing all and everything what is in order to make self claims as these.

My thoughts here are I wonder how we really think about our beliefs? I wonder how we can express the beliefs and truths we believe knowing in reality we can never prove. If we say we can prove then do we question as to what this proof is and its origins.

Maybe we use labels about things because without labels we cannot self identify, this I agree.

I just wondered as well as myself included if when people share what we feel is spiritual discussions leading to growth, I wondered what growth do we determine it is? a growth in or spiritual knowledge according to what we know in the world? a growth so that we can show we are more knowedgable in spiritual matters to other people? to become teachers of self creations of what we think is truth? what do we gain from this? I wonder if the spiritual side of humans exploration,experience, growth stays within should I say 'the worldly realm' How much of the spiritual exploration, experiences and growth does actually make a breakthrough to the in my view real question, The proof to all our seeking.and even what we accept as proof also is questionable.

Mind determines growth in its own way as it projects ideas of God/self realization etc. One may wonder and wonder and that is a quite an energy investment or just knuckle down and not sway with any other bul* until ground zsro is reached. Some do just that. I prefer that way. Just get on with it until the dream it is seen and lives as a dream
As I said before leela it is - an eternal purposeless play. "Worldly realm" ?? Truth never stand in contradiction to anything.

Good discussion:)
discussion it is!

Hi Jnani

'That is your truth, not the Truth then'.

I express my thoughts all the time, but cannot know it is truth. for there is nothing to compare or a way to check what we compare again is really truth?

'Truth is arrived at by unlearning'

How do we know how to identify truth when we have taken the faith to believe unlearning will bring truth?'How do we know?

If I was to tell you that you still wouldn't be any wiser. lets just say It found me a few years back. It revealed Itself'

.How did truth reveal itself to you? and what evidence did you have that said to your inner self 'Yes this is Truth!! '. If you told me as a fellow spiritual seeker would I then be wiser? something so hungered by humanity would be worth giving wouldn't it?.

'Be silent and know is true'.

Could I find truth in silence? something maybe experienced but again the new experience raises the inner voice of question.

It is terribly personal quest. Certainly is.:rolleyes:

'Just get on with it until the dream it is seen and lives as a dream'

As we continue onwards forever seeking........🙂

You can probobly get a theme of my asking the big question, its maybe a journey, it may not, no one can know. As we believe and feel in my view truth, the all knowing, existance , our beginning,etc maybe in time we will find what we feel is truth maybe from our passing from our lives and will reveal all.....the death of the questioning mind.

That as long as we live will be forever challenged in the seasons we claim to have found Truth 🙂
Enjoying the views great to go into the depths where most may feel challenged aginst currently held beliefs. sometimes it is good to stop and ask the question, continuing on to seek.......
.
Blessings

Sacrel

Hi Jnani

'That is your truth, not the Truth then'.

I express my thoughts all the time, but cannot know it is truth. for there is nothing to compare or a way to check what we compare again is really truth?

'Truth is arrived at by unlearning'

How do we know how to identify truth when we have taken the faith to believe unlearning will bring truth?'How do I know?

Trying to understand will only bring more rolled eyes Sacrel!

If I was to tell you that you still wouldn't be any wiser. lets just say It found me a few years back. It revealed Itself'

.How did truth reveal itself to you? and what evidence did you have that said to your inner self 'Yes this is Truth!! '. If you told me as a fellow spiritual seeker would I then be wiser? something so hungered by humanity would be worth giving wouldn't it?.

You want to pin point and I wish I could. I wish I could say it so you get it but what I will explaun will be just athe situation in which it happened such as in the shower, on drinking water, on the phone...but how do I say what happened. It begins long winded and it will still be the fluff around it. It can happen in myriad ways such as merging, dissolving, entering of what Is. The way it happened for me was fraction of a milli second but even the experience is hard to grip with words.

Ofcourse hungered by humanity it is, and if hunger is intense enough food comes.

You seem to be concerened about how would you know. When that happens it does not leave any doubt.It is not a conviction and self- confidence etc It is completely beyond doubt. So when it happens to you, you will know and also see why nothing can be said about it

'Be silent and know is true'.

Could I find truth in silence? something maybe experienced but again the new experience raises the inner voice of question.
What raises another question is just another experience. truth is beyond experience in as much that it cannot be conjured up by any other experience. It would be a silence not as in sitting in meditation for couple of hours or whatever. It is the mind settling that it finds its own source

It is terribly personal quest. Certainly is.:rolleyes:
I don't quite understand the sarcasm but it is ok

Sacrel

Life is enough unto itself

Hi jnani

'I don't quite understand the sarcasm but it is ok'

Strange? it seems when you quote my replies some text has been added in my reply which wasnt in my original replies?I assume you may have added? I didnt think we could add to quoted posts? then again I am not that experienced in using quotes.Ah well. no probs.🙂

Please do not feel I have come across sarcastic, I had not even thought about this intention! its maybe the smilies, I used the roll up eyes :rolleyes: as an expression of thought but notice it meant sarcasm.:o apologies if you have misunderstood my mis use of smilies..
Discussing something which I expect touches the hearts of many leads to a natural desire to explore. Not you specifically but I hope our discussions can relate to others in similar ways. Both of us speaking from both sides of truth if this is the case.I respect others truths as they believe they have found yet interested as to how? I also have certain truths used with my life as others with theirs, but the truth above all our own assumed truths is the jewel I expect we all someday wish to find and merge with. arriving back home. 🙂 Hold on to your truth jnani for no one can take from you.Blessings

Sacrel

Hi Sacrel

Going one step back, everything we learn, the judgements we make, the first choice we made, we can relate to in the here and now, the many questions each person asks, the answers everybody is trying to find we can relate to in the way of similar behaviours, but is it possible that we cannot find the source to the beginning of our behaviours?, the root to our first choice, the creation that created thought? .

Our first choice happens before we join our consciousness with a physical egg that is being fertilised, that is basically what sort of start do we wish to experience, sex time-frame and the type of or lack of parenting we would like to start with, then we create a blank everyday thinking aspect of consciousness and sit back and watch the experience unfold within the blank thinking aspect of consciousness.

If we go back to what we were before we came to explore this physical reality, then as a being of pure consciousness that exists outside of a physical time frame there is only the Now which encompasses zero '0' which is a complete circle that depicts the oneness of consciousness, if we try and impose a beginning and an end to complete circle, then it will twist and distort into the symbol of infinity which depicts the expanse of the oneness within the Now.

If time was relevant, then before conscious awareness, there would be nothing to observe or be aware of anything, so basically without consciousness to perceive, there is nothing, which again is zero, so the oneness is everything and nothing at the same time, just like us. 😉

See I knew there was a reason for zero and infinity. 🙂

As for truth, there is no such thing outside of the judgement of right and wrong, there is only what is and the way that we choose to perceive and interact with our life experience as it unfolds within the Now, if we choose to embrace our life experience non-judgmentally with acceptance, then all is as it should be. 🙂

Hi Paul

Thats a good in depth description, and thoughtprovoking.:)

I wanted to point out one last question which I suppose I tried to convey through the post.

'how do we know everything said is true? We all have our views on everything as yours. But how did you know what you know? If the knowledge has been learned and taught, then how do you know the source from where you gained the information is true?

Your post I feel presents a lot of growth but have you ever wondered or question the source as to where all learning believed to be true today?

I suppose the answer would then lead to, where then did the knowledge come from before we received it? taking us all back to a source of some sort which at some point we cannot answer because we go beyond knowing.

Therefore if that is the case coming back to the hear and now I feel when looked at we begin to question the trails of our knowledge. as how do we know what we know is truth and the big questions beyond our knowledge.

I find this an interesting subject. as humans we can be so sure of our beliefs yet have we stopped to question as to where do our beliefs come from? I dont mean the family and society conditioning but beyond all thought. Interesting how our beliefs, views on truth, existance etc can drive our everyday existance yet have we stopped and asked' why am i believing this?why am I doing the things I do. say the things I say. what in the beginning has driven us.?

I feel humanity cannot answer this, hence the human condition of searching for something yet not knowing what?

Mothers day duties calling-catch ya'll later😉

Blessings:)

Sacrel

Hi jnani

'I don't quite understand the sarcasm but it is ok'

Strange? it seems when you quote my replies some text has been added in my reply which wasnt in my original replies?I assume you may have added? I didnt think we could add to quoted posts? then again I am not that experienced in using quotes.Ah well. no probs.🙂

Please do not feel I have come across sarcastic, I had not even thought about this intention! its maybe the smilies, I used the roll up eyes :rolleyes: as an expression of thought but notice it meant sarcasm.:o apologies if you have misunderstood me.
Discussing something which I expect touches the hearts of many leads to a natural desire to explore. Not you specifically but I hope our discussions can relate to others in similar ways. Both of us speaking from both sides of truth if this is the case.I respect others truths as they believe they have found yet interested as to how? I also have certain truths used with my life as others with theirs, but the truth above all our own assumed truths is the jewel I expect we all someday wish to find and merge with. arriving back home. 🙂 Hold on to your truth jnani for no one can take from you.Blessings

Sacrel

That is me technologically challenged. I have seen many post quotes with in a post and answer to each quote . As in answering each point.Seems that is the best I could manage! haha! should go back to school, shouldn't I!!
I don't very often use smilies and that one said sarcasm. No I did not take the rolled eyes the wrong way just did not understand why would you be sarcastic all of a sudden. and it turns out that you were just rolling your eyes!
I have found just the right one here :food-smiley-004:! (I hope)

Hi Sacrel

'how do we know everything said is true? We all have our views on everything as yours. But how did you know what you know? If the knowledge has been learned and taught, then how do you know the source from where you gained the information is true?

In a sense I had to let go of most things that I had learnt within my life experience, so that I could learn for a place of acceptance of self and what is, rather than working from a judgement of self and others.

My insight comes from the fullness of self, my current knowledge or understanding which is as normal growing and adapting to suit the requirements of my life experience as it unfolds around me, comes both from my insight and what I have learnt within my life experience from others and studying myself, the two did not always make good bed fellows until I stopped judging them against each other and started to work from a base of acceptance of what is.

Your post I feel presents a lot of growth but have you ever wondered or question the source as to where all learning believed to be true today?

I suppose the answer would then lead to, where then did the knowledge come from before we received it? taking us all back to a source of some sort which at some point we cannot answer because we go beyond knowing.

Therefore if that is the case coming back to the hear and now I feel when looked at we begin to question the trails of our knowledge. as how do we know what we know is truth and the big questions beyond our knowledge.

Knowledge can come from anywhere, knowing comes from the fullness of self (our higher aspect of consciousness), in order to gain knowing then we need to let go of what we judge ourselves to be, as well as what we think we know and become nothing or zero, at that point we move beyond the confines of our everyday thinking aspect of self which perceives self as separate and we become open to inner tuition or intuition which comes from the fullness of self.

It is our knowing that comes from the fullness of self that is beyond the current judgemental understanding of our everyday thinking mind or aspect of consciousness, the knowing has always been there waiting for us to acknowledge self and through that it, we have everything that we need within us, if we cannot perceive it, then we need to change our core way of being from being separate which is stopping us from acknowledging and becoming whole within the fullness of self.

I find this an interesting subject. as humans we can be so sure of our beliefs yet have we stopped to question as to where do our beliefs come from? I dont mean the family and society conditioning but beyond all thought. Interesting how our beliefs, views on truth, existance etc can drive our everyday existance yet have we stopped and asked' why am i believing this?why am I doing the things I do. say the things I say. what in the beginning has driven us.?

I feel humanity cannot answer this, hence the human condition of searching for something yet not knowing what?

All of our beliefs come from self, much the same as our thoughts do, we might be told how to think and what to believe and do by others, but we all have a free will to choose that which we would like to embrace within self and that which we do not choose to embrace within self.

I think the question is as you have indicated, not where do our beliefs come from? For that is self, it is more as you say a question of why have we chosen to embrace beliefs within the fullness of self that cause us inner turmoil, pain and suffering?

At the end of the day we are all personally responsible for our own thought patterns and beliefs which forms our core way of being, as well as anything which manifests or results from them.

In a sense I have moved beyond or outgrown my judgemental beliefs to the point that I am happy to deal with what is and just be, rather than judging what could, should or should not be and trying to be something. 🙂

Hi Sacrel,

I'm so impressed with your searching and your deep thinking.

This question I feel is something that humans can only in reality ask is there something else? that we currently physically and mentally experience and live. A god behind our awakening? A something out there? We can debate and discuss ‘again maybe our beliefs to what we think is right, but cannot possibly know is right !!’ but it is this question in our reality that does present before us possibly evidence for some reason? Does it seem humans are different to any other living thing on earth?

Therefore what has happened to humans for them to awaken and evolve as such compared to why other living things which have seemed to stayed as they have been I expect since creation, leads to thinking there is something bigger than our beliefs and ideas of creation?. this question in my view seems more real because of our difference compared to other living things. than in the direct questioning in something we believe in not presenting evidence in the physical realm but also cannot be sure of the evidence to whence it can from.

I'm coming late into this, but the way I see it is that all creation is made up of ideas of the infinite divine Mind (what I call God) and the way I see it, man (in the generic sense) is the highest idea of God. I'm talking of our real identity here - our spiritual reality, not the counterfeit that we see and sometimes despair of! We are actually spiritual, not material and that's why we long to find our real identity - and it's in Spirit, (what I call God) not matter.

The way I see it is that we were made to love, to reflect the fulness of all Spirit's qualities - life, enthusiasm, joy, intelligence, wisdom, logic, kindness, compassion, integrity, honesty, creativity, beauty, order, harmony, etc etc etc and to show care and responsibility for all the other ideas in creation.

As for the other points in your original post - I feel very privileged to have a faith - well of way of living and thinking - that can be proved and is not just abstract theory, with people telling you you have to do this or not do that or you'll end up in hell! 😮 (And then, when you find out it was a hoax, they are not there to blame!)

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Principled:)

A nice thoughtful view for I know you have always had such a strong belief.

I don’t post very often these days as I once used to some years ago, (I have been growing for a while;)) when I do post I tend to be naturally transparent and genuine, expressing truth as I believe it. Quite often going quite deep in thought, (I have been told often people struggle with my depth of thought:o) it is the getting down in writing that could be difficult to express what’s inside ones head.

After considering and pondering on everyone’s thoughts, views and beliefs, it is really interesting how each person has evolved, the wonderful knowledge and experience shines through everyone’s writing, and I’m sure others on HP will also have evolved in similar ways.

Forgive me if I may have missed something but I felt we have discussed the surface of what we know. Such a wide variation of knowledge. BUT I feel the question ‘how do we know from where we have massed this knowledge?’ can never be answered.

We all put across our beliefs as I myself, from every line we write profess our words of knowledge, on every belief we strongly hold, but have we ever had the thought ‘How do I know what I know is true’, If I believe everything I know to be the creation, the birth, the god of all things or alike etc, I must be sure!’. ‘Then how am I sure?’ I just know! ‘But how do I just know? ‘Something inside changed within me, I had an experience that told me or shown me everything is Truth’.

Do we ask ourselves ‘what evidence can we compare to our current mind, our experience, an inner voice rising from ‘somewhere within’? To everything we know? Is it not true that we can only know up to that place of learning that we are at? We have no frame of reference to compare, to question what we believe, what we feel. What we know is the truth of everything and everything we believe?.

I speak of people at large also directed at myself who is also in with the population who questions. People take such beliefs and live by them, through them and continue to live their lives by beliefs or until a new season takes a new belief to replace what was once true.

Yet do we question? Possibly yes! Do we follow our questioning? I feel each person follows their questioning and seeking as far as their hunger takes them. Even taking steps to experience the extreme, to find an answer to their questions.

I feel we create and believe those things in our lives because we want to, we created a god because we need one, and we created various spiritual paths because we needed to know there is some form of hope beyond the question we cannot find the answer for.

Humanity I feel created everything around us as a way of distracting our minds away from the questioning that returns answers unable to satisfy the mind, becoming busy in life takes away these thoughts ‘for a while’. At some point in life the questions rise again spurring on another journey on seeking, something new arises; a new hope sparks only to find the question we ask still remains.

We can only discuss that which we know from our living lives, discussing the beliefs we create, defending our individual paths because to believe our creations are an image created in what we think could be of something that drives us, something that watches over us, a god that is!.

Maybe we are not able to go there? To ask ‘what if?’ What if there is something else that humanity is not aware of? What if everything we created is all wrong? Creations of our abilities, creations of our needs to have a higher power, to save us from our seeking, our questions if we continue on after our deaths.

And even then in eternity we may still question ……………there must be something else?

Therefore today we are such a small creation, creating our beliefs, our beliefs on what truth is, our beliefs on god, theory’s on creation, yet if we really asked the question within about all our beliefs about what else is there?, is there really a god?, a universe?, a ‘something’ that is driving humanity behind our minds in this world, As humanity with a mind driving our existence, a mind questioning everything, and no evidence to prove ones beliefs about the drive behind us we can never know what we are not sure about.

It’s not the individual questions, but all questions of humanity leading to the one Big Question. and of course everything I write could be wrong because I write from an assumed belief from life, without a true evidence that the human can realistically compare to. If we feel we dont need a frame of reference, evidence, or comparision then we must ask...'Then how do I really know?'.:)

Apologies if I may have drifted, I am sure everyone at some time experiences that once you get typing, you forget that you are typing and ‘The Flow’ takes over. I am not an athiest or a believer, but one who is open to all things and questions many experiences . Hope it isn’t too muddling.:o Back to reality.

Blessings all. Has been a profound, interesting and close discussion.
Sacrel:nature-smiley-008:

Hi Sacrel

All answers lie within the fullness of self, we are all one and complete within the fullness of self and the fullness of everything when we are in expression of wholeness.

But then when we are in a non-judgemental state of wholeness, there is no life's big question to be asked or answered, for we are complete within our life experience as it continually unfolds within the now. 😉

Hi all,

Wow, so much has been said before I've even had a chance to reply, I'll see if I can reply to all in one go hehe (skipped a few posts as I think my below answer already covers them)...

It is interesting how people form beliefs. To read, experience, hear or see things in their lives and come to take these things as true. To believe that there is no other way but the way that they found.

Over time as we grow, something else enters our lives which knocks away our old beliefs which at one time we felt was truth. I too have had many experiences where at one time in life something spiritually found seemed to be ‘truth’. And can anyone knock these beliefs from us?!.

Clearly we're talking (on a non-spiritual level) of social psychology. People are brought up with learnt behaviour, and will often believe those who they know and trust; most typically their parents and teachers. As people grow though, and leave school and their parents to become more 'independent' they start to integrate with society and will pick up behaviours of their peers, partially through a need to be accepted by that society, but also on a subconscious level, through a need to learn new things, to the point that these behaviours can become believed to be truth, even if there is no actual evidence to support it. In more closed societies, this is far more apparent as there are typically boundaries set within the society that children learn are not to be crossed, and these boundaries can actually prevent progress with the wider world where life is ever changing. In the wider world, it's not so apparent as, whilst people have their own beliefs and backgrounds, they are more open to change and integration with other's beliefs, and the boundaries are not so strict and limited.

There are some things however, that are not just things we learn from others. The way I describe it is that we are taught 'information', and only when we put that information into practice and test it for ourselves (rather than relying on somebody's word), then, and only then, does that become 'knowledge', and it is that knowledge that we know to be true. This is when 'beliefs' become 'knowledge', and whilst it may still seem like 'beliefs' to those who have not tested it themselves, these are things that will not be knocked out of us, because we cannot remove knowledge that we know to be true from testing. Of course there are different granularities to the 'knowledge', so a general knowlege about something may be made up of smaller pieces of knowledge and those may be bound together by some beliefs/information that are harder to test. Those bindings may get changed as we learn other information and test for more knowledge, which may strengthen the overall knowledge or re-arrange the smaller parts into a different order before binding them together again. Belief and knowledge will intermingle, but it is only belief that can be changed, as knowledge is truth. (unfortunately many people will say that their beliefs are 'known' to them, and call it truth, and that's where we can get confusion and conflict)

However I have felt there must be something, something that drives us, something beyond our physical human form, something bigger than our questions and thoughts. And it is from the thought ‘how we became aware’?

Why does there have to be a "how"? Awareness is known to us as being something that is always there. We're not born and then awareness is given to us, we are born as aware because we are awareness. People often confuse awareness with the senses and will say that they weren't aware of this or that, when really what they are saying is that they didn't percieve this or that through their physical senses. When we sleep, our senses carry on working in the physical sense (we can be awoken through them), and our awareness doesn't disappear, as it is there still when we awake, but we have a seperation (lack of attachment) when we sleep that means we are not aware of the senses (the attachment between awareness and senses comes and goes during sleep - which in science they measure based on brainwave activity at different frequencies - something which has also been measured during meditation tests and the like)

What drives our existence in the way we live? Other animals, mammals share our world yet most live an animal life, what then happened to us to evolve to an extent we have created a world and live to an extent to have created every fine detail of our lives.

Evolution... another of the great mysteries hehe! An interesting point was made in a book I read recently ("In Search of the Multiverse" by John Gribbin). Many talk of evolution as being survival of the fittest and therefore humans are the better species as we have evolved the most, but it can also be looked at the other way around. Those that survive the best in their environment have no need to change, but those that are not the best at surviving have to evolve and/or change their environment. So it could be said that the better species are those things that have remained unchanged for millions of years; those single celled organisms, or the bacteria etc. floating around in the sea, and because mankind has had to evolve so much and change their environment, it's because we are not the best at surviving in the environment and therefore keep seeking to change. The point is that it comes down to a matter of perception... which one is "better"... those things that have evolved or those that have not?

I can try to understand possibly that other living things were created from the earth since time began in the right conditions and environment, BUT at one point in the sense of humans, at one point something changed, something?, something may have looked at us and from a bigger picture, created lives and the growth we all created since the time of man.

This question I feel is something that humans can only in reality ask is there something else? that we currently physically and mentally experience and live. A god behind our awakening? A something out there? We can debate and discuss ‘again maybe our beliefs to what we think is right, but cannot possibly know is right !!’ but it is this question in our reality that does present before us possibly evidence for some reason? Does it seem humans are different to any other living thing on earth?

Depends on the context of perception. In a way, of course we are different, in other way... we are all One and the same.

Therefore what has happened to humans for them to awaken and evolve as such compared to why other living things which have seemed to stayed as they have been I expect since creation, leads to thinking there is something bigger than our beliefs and ideas of creation?. this question in my view seems more real because of our difference compared to other living things. than in the direct questioning in something we believe in not presenting evidence in the physical realm but also cannot be sure of the evidence to whence it can from.

From the words you use here it would suggest that you have your own beliefs that evolution is the 'awakening' and therefore something better than those things we deem not to have evolved. Is the difference you perceive not just something you are creating in your own mind based on your own learnt behaviours and those of your teachers? If you strip away those pre-conceived ideas that you have been taught, what is there to indicate that there is possibly something bigger or that there is something that is looking down on us from a bigger picture (the 'god' behind your awakening)?

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Jnani's response of the wave trying to be the ocean was a lovely analogy 🙂 and brings to mind these thoughts...

the molecules come together to become water, the water comes together to become the sea, the sea and wind come together to create waves, the waves and land come together to create the planet, the planets come together to create the solar system around our sun, and the stars (of which our sun is one) come together to create our galaxy, and the galaxies comes together to be the universe... but all of that is still just those little molecules... being molecules... being at One with the whole.

likewise, we can look at a gold ring, but if the ring is melted down and turned into something else.. has the gold stopped being gold... no... it is still gold, it is just the outward form of it that has changed... and this is like everything... we can observe that it changes, but at it's core it is all as it has ever been, and that underlying 'thing' that doesn't change is the awareness that we are, the awareness that observes the changes, but in and of itself does not change.

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Paul makes an interesting point about judgement. Judgements are formed based on beliefs, and comes from comparing one thing with an-other. What is 'good' and what is 'bad'? the 'good' is only recognised if we choose to identify with something that is 'bad'; though one person's bad is another person's good and visa versa. In itself, some thing cannot be both bad and good (e.g. I could perceive a person as being a bad person, though his mother could perceive him as being good), so the judgement of good an bad is not an attribute of the thing itself, but of the person who is perceiving; and as these judgements are not permanent, then the quality itself is not permanent, and thus as it is changing it cannot be the awareness itself as it is being observed as changing. So, when we are being truly aware, we do not have these judgements, and recognise that such things only come from within ourselves, when we perceive duality (this and that) and create comparisons; often such comparisons are created based on things in the past that no longer exist, and are also often projected into the future for something which has not yet happened (and is unlikely to happen exactly as one believes). Such beliefs detract from what is truly here in the present moment.

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but is it possible that we cannot find the source to the beginning of our behaviours?, the root to our first choice, the creation that created thought? .

thoughts are created within awareness. Science will say that thoughts are created in the brain, by the chemical interaction of neurons, but as you say, what created the first thought that shaped the brain to think? When we say thoughts are "created" that kind of implies that there was a time when there was no thought and each thought started at some point, but what if you consider that thoughts are really just a movement of awareness, a changing to the outward form of awareness, like the gold in the process of being shaped into an object like a ring? The thought arises out of awareness and returns to awareness to arise again in a different form... it is awareness that is creating and shaping thoughts. Through becoming more aware in ourselves we come closer to awareness and are less on the outward side of the thoughts that manifest... like when we meditate and thoughts appear to lessen, though we can still observe them happening... we just become less attached to them; or when we sleep and the thoughts are there shaping our dreams and we observe this happening as we go deeper and deeper (become less and less attached).

We can never be sure?

No we can't. Not in terms of putting language to it or seeing it in the physical sense. All we can do with language is create models or paradigms to try and illustrate what we know and point towards the truth, like a signpost on a path that is leading us in the right direction, but to be at the destination we have to free ourselves of the things holding us back.

The closest I feel we could come to a truth is to believe that ' The mind needs to die and if what is found is real we must have all knowledge of everything there is to confirm that what we think we know is truth'. even this is an idea that cannot be confirmed.

The mind is just another conceptual model of what goes on within awareness... a label given to the collective thoughts that arise.. which become attached to 'things' and distract from the reality of what is in front of us now. This is known in the teachings of advaita as Ahankara; which is a sanskrit word made of two words Aham (m rather than n when used alone) meaning the One awareness, and Kara, meaning any 'thing' (or as it was taught to me 'anything in creation' which can be physical or otherwise, including thoughts etc.) When the one awareness becomes attached to any 'thing' ('things' created when we consider one as being seperate from an-other, thus creating duality), we get Ahankara, or more commonly known to you and me in English as Ego. The ego is the attachment of awareness to any one thing, or to put it another way, The ego creates duality.

And at only arriving at this point ‘if there is one’ can we know truth of all things.
It’s not what we write today, it’s not what we say today, past present or future. It how we came to be?.

"how we came to be" stems from the concept of there being something before... but before what? If you consider that everything has always been (a concept some people find hard to comprehend) then there is no need for anything to have to come into being, and thus no need to create a concept of creation. It is perhaps because some find the concept of infinite time impossible to grasp that the concept of creation came about, and thus the concept that if there was a creation, there must have been something to create it... which then gives us the paradox that if somethings existed beforehand to create creation, then how did it come to exist before creation, and thus stems the concept of some supreme being that is beyond human comprehension and has always been. If such a 'god' can always have been, then why can't the universe always have been without the need for a god?

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There is no Truth as such to be found. It just Is

Exactly. One cannot seek what is already here; one just has to unseek first.
An anology from the teachings I received is, consider a lightbulb, when the bulb is new it is clear and bright, but over time, dust gathers on the bulb and the light becomes more dim. This doesn't mean that the light is no longer there as in truth, it's still as light as it always was; it just means that we have to clear the dust away for the light to shine through, rather than looking to see if the light has gone elsewhere.

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'where did I get this knowledge that I feel and express'?

You didn't get the knowledge, you ARE the knowledge.

When you mentioned 'there is no truth to be found, it just is' forgive me for asking but how do you know?. 'Ever constant,never changing, beyond time, beyond understanding' what experience has led you to know this?

Do you observe thoughts arising in your mind; yes.
Do these thoughts change as you observe them; yes.
As the observer of these thoughts, you know you cannot BE the thoughts themselves, because as they change, you remain observing.

Do you observe emotions arising within you; yes.
Do these emotions come and go; yes.
As the observer of these emotions, you know you cannot BE the emotions themselves, because as they come and go, you remain observing.

(and there are other examples)

the one thing that remains constant and never changes, is the observer. Even as you physically age with time, you are still the same observer you were when you were younger, just attached to different changing thoughts and memories... the observer is still there observing.

It is said in these teachings (the teachings of Advaita (non-duality)) that the true Self is the unchanging observer, and it is through the attachment to things that change we wrongly identify ourSelves as being those things that change... but this is the ego I talked about before. (we have to be careful using the word "ego" as people often consider it in the negative social context, but that's not necessarily the case here)

I have come accross people who continue to seek who may say things like ' I am more awakened than you therefore I see and know'

LOL! now that is the ego speaking. 😉

Maybe we use labels about things because without labels we cannot self identify, this I agree.

Absolutely. Labels are what language uses to create the paradigms... the distinguishability between this and that in the dualistic sense. Drop the labels and you have the truth, but you cannot describe it in words. Makes for an odd kind of paradox. hehe!

I just wondered as well as myself included if when people share what we feel is spiritual discussions leading to growth, I wondered what growth do we determine it is? a growth in or spiritual knowledge according to what we know in the world? a growth so that we can show we are more knowedgable in spiritual matters to other people? to become teachers of self creations of what we think is truth? what do we gain from this?

It's an interesing point. Yes, certainly there are people out there who are choosing to 'share' their version of 'spiritual knowledge' in order to boost their own ego and make out how spiritual they are. But there are some people who just share knowledge because they are asked. I would say that a true teacher is one who answers the questions asked, not one who goes about telling people what they think they should hear.
I recall some story told to me about a guru who was asked why he just sat in silence and wasn't going around telling everyone the truth when obviously he knew of it. He replied that those who were ready to hear the truth would be the ones who asked him for it. If they asked, he would tell.

Sharing knowledge is not about what we can gain from doing so. For example, when I discuss things on these forums, I don't do it to try and gain anything. I don't need nor seek respect or gratitude from anyone, and I rarely start discussions of my own; and those I do are not to tell people knowledge I know. If someone is asking, or questioning, then I am more than happy (figuratively speaking as I don't even seek happiness from it) to share what knowledge I have. If a person takes on that knowledge and finds benefit then that is good for them, and if they don't then that is also good for them, I won't concern myself one way or the other. (I know that sounds a bit heartless, but it's not - I will always try to clarify things I share if needed - but ultimately it's up to the individual to find the knowledge within their Self)

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Judy's description is great, because although Judy relates her knowledge to God and Christianity, the model being described does appear to fit in with the concept that we are all One awareness, or if you prefer, we are all God, if you want to associate with religion. Some would say that anyone saying they are God are egotistical, but it's really the opposite, by recognising we are all One, is letting go of the ego; as it's the ego that creates duality; seperates the awareness into us and them.

Hope I haven't blown your brain with all that. 😀

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi All 🙂

Thanks Energylz. what a wonderful indepth post.Certainly a lot of thought arising.

I 'accidently' came across this statement this morning when browsing the web on other matters. A page came up showing the statement below made by a chap named

[url]Yogiraj SatGurunath Siddhanath[/url]
For thousand of years people have been trying to prove God and they have failed. For thousands of years people have also been trying to disprove and they have also failed.

Blessings

Sacrel

[url]Yogiraj SatGurunath Siddhanath[/url]
For thousand of years people have been trying to prove God and they have failed. For thousands of years people have also been trying to disprove and they have also failed.

God is not a subject of proving or disproving. God is of direct experience. And each one must validate this Truth by his/her own experience.

God is of direct experience. And each one must validate this Truth by his/her own experience.

That is so true - thanks,

Judy

"I... had an experience. I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real. I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever. A vision of the universe, that tells us undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are not, that none of us are alone." Ellie Arroway. Quote from the film Contact.

The above quote was one of my favourite quotes out of several in the film Contact since it's release. I came across it again today. I felt this was a nice description in some way relative to the post.:)