Hi everyone,
In the past 2 months alone we have watched two amazing programmes on the BBC - Richard Dawking (Root of all evil) and Jonathan Miller's 'Brief History of disbelief.' Then we have witnessed 76 people die in Mecca in the annual Hajj Pilgrimage and the continuing spate of suicide bombings in Iraq. An interesting soup of atheism, religion, ritual, belief and evolution.
While everyone in the Middle eastern countries fervently follows their 'god' and their religious belief system, in the UK only 3% of people go to Church and the new 'god' in our society is materialism - here certainly the Bible has lost it's mystique!
The atheist viewpoint eloquently proffered by messrs Miller and Dawking make compulsive viewing and I have no doubt that many people watching this series were seduced into the new disbelief culture.
All of this I suggest is the result of the cultural, scientific and technological growth of our society completely opposite to the cultures of Iraq, Saudi, Iran and neighbouring societies that stay firmly fixed in the lifestyles of 2000 year ago. Despite Muhammed urging his people to go into the world and educate themselves, the Religious leaders decided on a power structure that would enslave their charges - a system that is just as powerful today.
So what about the Bible? It too was written in the language of 1900 years ago. It was the language of 'thou shalt not' - writtenso that the uneducated masses would have some semblence of order and constraint - elevating their religious leaders to demi-god status.
UK culkture has grown at a phenominal rate over the centries, no more so than over the last 100 years - we are in fact true followers of the real wisdom of Muhammed and his vision of society.
Now, you cannot tell a person from british heritage 'thou shalt not' we have evolved beyond that. Most of us live very civilised lives, we help people, give healing, say hello when we walk to town, smile and send prayers to those less fortunate than ourselves. When disasters strike this little country sends aid way in excess of its size and greater than any other country - not government response I might add - but the British public themselves.
I think the movement away from the teachings of the Bible is a product of evolution and our own success in leading loving lifestyles. Perhaps it is now time to listen again to the new teachings springing up around the world written in the languages of today.
I for one would never read the Bible - to me it is just as obsolete as it was 47 years ago, when at the age of age I announced on Sunday morning, 'I'm not going to Church again Mum, if God shouts like that, he is not a very nice person so I don't want to know him.' - I used to be terrified by the bellowing condemnations of a preacher 50 years my elder, but now I realise farless spiritual than the boy in front of him. I never went again.
NowI talk to Spirit daily and wouldn't swop my life with anyone, I'm enjoying it too much
Best wishes
In love & light
Publisher
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
First of all, it's wrong to assume that people who believe the Bible or the Koran are uneducated. I have a four yearcollege degree. There are famous scientists who are very, very smart, who happen to be Christians. Perhaps the reason more smart people are not religious is because they become too high on themselves. Remember, while Christians may think the husband is the authority in the home and that men should only be pastors at church, that doesnt' preclude them from having a woman boss at work.
The amazing thing is, the Bible is NOT obsolete. Something published so, so long ago, and yet the issues faced back then still amazingly apply today. For instance, lawsuits, greed, homosexuality, abortion, adultery, fornication, stealing, pride, etc....we were warned about this back in the Bible.....
"For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, (KJV)"
What's happened is humanism, as was predicted to happen in the Bible. Once again, we see that you and othershave a pre-ordained view of God, and you feel if He doesn't meet YOUR criteria of what God should be, you somehow are in a position to judge God. If He created us, He knows a lot more than you and I about what goes on in the world. Perhaps something might look one way to you but you might not know the whole story.
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Dear Publisher
I think these holy books will become part of our history books as we move more and more in to the new humanitarian Age of Aquarius and leave behind he emotive religions born out of the Age of Pisces. Its interesting that a lot of Jews have made a similar transition as many liberal Christians. It is Gods will that the walls of separation built by the religions will come down, no more war in Gods name. They shall not kill is as important today as it ever was.
There is a lot of goodness in a lot of spiritual texts but there is also the hand of man. The latest research carried out in Europe stated that man is also moving away from materialism it just does not satisfy anymore. The research stated the man is looking for well-being and happiness that cannot be found in material things. People are waking up at last.
Dear MC
And here we have the contradiction because the bible also states that 'did I not tell ye that you are Gods?' and 'behold you are the temple of the living God'. I recommend that you get a newer translation of the bible because the KJV really is very political. Also do some serious research on its compilation it is an eye-opener.
being love
Kim xx
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
ORIGINAL: Sacredstar
Dear Publisher
I think these holy books will become part of our history books as we move more and more in to the new humanitarian Age of Aquarius and leave behind he emotive religions born out of the Age of Pisces. Its interesting that a lot of Jews have made a similar transition as many liberal Christians. It is Gods will that the walls of separation built by the religions will come down, no more war in Gods name. They shall not kill is as important today as it ever was.
There is a lot of goodness in a lot of spiritual texts but there is also the hand of man. The latest research carried out in Europe stated that man is also moving away from materialism it just does not satisfy anymore. The research stated the man is looking for well-being and happiness that cannot be found in material things. People are waking up at last.
Dear MC
And here we have the contradiction because the bible also states that 'did I not tell ye that you are Gods?' and 'behold you are the temple of the living God'. I recommend that you get a newer translation of the bible because the KJV really is very political. Also do some serious research on its compilation it is an eye-opener.
being love
Kim xx
Hi Kim,
Newer translation? No thanks. This is what the Bible warned us about. People trying to change God's word, which is happening even more and more in the states with these so-called "new translations", which are more an attempt at paraphasing than an actually attempt to accurately translate the Bible from the original manuscripts.
I don't know of the 1st quote anywhere, and you are mistranslating the 2nd quote, in my opinion. It says your body is "the temple of the living God" and in context, it is talking about keeping yourself holy, away from sexual sin. The 1st quote I believe is nowhere in the Bible.
[blockquote]
Revelation 22:18-19, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Proverbs 30:5-6, Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. [/blockquote]
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be my people." 2 Corinthians 6:16
"all things are pure to the pure" Clement
Matthew 7
Judging Others
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Chapter 11 Corinthians
31: For if we could judge ourselves we should not be judged.
32: But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Chapter 15 Corinthians
33: For GOD is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
'Ye are Gods certainly is in the bible Jesus said it to the Jewis Priests I will find it for you when I have more time.
being love
Kim xx
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
ORIGINAL: mcnabbmcnow
Newer translation? No thanks.
Well the book you look at it full of mistranslation yet you do not have the eyes that are willing to investigate the origins of your own beliefs.
This is what the Bible warned us about.
Correct the KJV is one of these. The original translations were changed time and time again the first two translations done by Marcion and Origen were branded heresy.......and so what you read is not the original. Wake up friend.
People trying to change God's word, which is happening even more and more in the states with these so-called "new translations", which are more an attempt at paraphasing than an actually attempt to accurately translate the Bible from the original manuscripts.
No, people seek the truth and they do find when they are willing to seek.
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Yes Gods word is pure love and the wisdom of love not condemnation or judgement. For in my own experience with God, God does not judge.
being love
Kim xx
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Here you are John:10:34
Jesus answered them. "Is it not written in your law, I have said you are Gods?"
again in the Psalms 82:6 I said 'You are Gods', you are all sons of the Most High
being love
Kim xx
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
ORIGINAL: Sacredstar
Here you are John:10:34
Jesus answered them. "Is it not written in your law, I have said you are Gods?"
again in the Psalms 82:6 I said 'You are Gods', you are all sons of the Most High
being love
Kim xx
Spot on.
The priests were challenging Jesus since people were saying he was the Son of God. In their challenging, that how dare he have people make such claims, Jesus replied by quoting their own scripture (and Christian scripture, the OT), "Is it not written in your law, I have said you are gods?"
They all knew that scripture, and knew the full line Jesus was referring to: 'I said, "You are gods; you are all Sons of the Most High" '- translated elsewhere as "I have said, ye are gods; all of you".
Jesus here is answering the critique of his being the Son of God by pointing out that in scripture it's written that we are ALL gods (not lowly 'sinners') etc. Therefore if ALL are gods, there surely wasn't anything they could object to in Jesus being Son of God. But their cool exterior broke - people who use quote after quote to try to 'prove' points by mereintellect (which is hardly true spirituality), and people who object greatly when someone declares that they are holy and at-one with God are usually holding back some powerful suppressed energies of imperfection. In this case, it broke out and pretty soon their cool reasoning was gone, and they sought to kill him.
BTW, I'm the Son of God too. And I mean that seriously, not in any humerous manner. We're all Sons and Daughters of God; it's just a pity that over the centuries political intrigue and human guilt has led people to deny their own actual reality.
Venetian
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Venetian
Are you saying you are God, too? If so, what about these verses all claiming that there is only ONE God?
==========================================================
Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'" (Isaiah 44:8)
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other," (Isaiah 45:5-6)
Thus says the Lord, "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: `Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.'" (Isaiah 45:14)
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), "I am the Lord, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18)
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:21-22)
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, (Isaiah 46:9)
There is none like Thee, O Lord; Thou art great, and great is Thy name in might. (Jeremiah 10:6)
Yet I have been the Lord your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me. (Hosea 13:4)
"Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the Lord your God And there is no other; And My people will never be put to shame. (Joel 2:27)
"Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers? (Malachi 2:10)
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)
"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? (John 5:44)
"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." (John 8:41)
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. (1 Corinthians 8:4)
I will get to John 10:34 in a little bit. I will give Sacred Star credit, the verse does say that....but I don't interpret it the way she does.
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Yes, there is one God.
And as for myself, I'd say:
Before Abraham was, I AM.
I trust you aren't going to interpret the line from John as being that there should be an apostrophe? I mean, that it isn't "Ye are gods" but "Ye are God's"? I've come across that one before ;)and it's obviously nonsensical as it deals with the English language. The original quoted by Jesus is in Hebrew and the Hebrew word does mean "Gods" i.e. God or god in the plural.
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
My thoughts...
Whenever I read the local paper I see lots of people who could have benefitted from following a religion... happyslappers, arsonists, wife beaters, rapists, taggers, car keyers... I don't think society is really that advanced.
Anyway, what ruins (or gives a bad name to) a holy book is man (or woman 😛 ). If you're intelligent and outspoken, you can convince people who follows a holy book to do stuff they might otherwise think was daft, it would seem... I'm sure I could quote bits of the Bible to achieve my own end.
Personally, some time in my life I will go through the Bible and work out how to achieve a greater spirituality... and my own interest may encourage others.
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Just to go back a little higher in this thread, Mc wrote in reply to Kim:
ORIGINAL: mcnabbmcnow
and you are mistranslating the 2nd quote, in my opinion. It says your body is "the temple of the living God" and in context, it is talking about keeping yourself holy, away from sexual sin.
Away from sexual sin? That's your 'translation'?
The line is from St. Paul in 2 Corinthians 6:16. Of course there are various Bible versionsbut they all in this case say much the same thing. KJV has it, but check any other:
"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (KJV)
He's writing here about idols in the temple, and reminds his readers in Corinth "Ye are the temple of the living God". There's no reference here to sex and quite the opposite - he's talking about something else. Yet again we find a Christian hung up on sex, it seems. On 'sin'. I'm only realising now that whenever Mc has used the word 'sin' in threads he was at least often dealing with sex-guilt, it seems. I'm sorry, but I really do find this a sorrowful way to live. Implications of 'sex' are seen in texts even when they clearly are not there.
But more upliftingly, Paul continues: "as God hath said [he's quoting the OT], I will dwell in them, and walk in them..." Paul is saying here what the New Age agrees with, that our body is a temple. In all respects. In fact, body, emotions, and thoughts. And so we hear often now the term "body temple" or people talking about "my body temple". If they are cognizant of what they are saying, and most are, they mean a very large host of things - nothing to do with feelings of guilt, for guilt itself pollutes the emotions - such as eating pure foods lacking as much as possible in chemicals (for many today it means being vegetarian), keeping healthy and fit if possible, thinking positively not negatively (fundamentalist Christianity seems focussed upon obsession with negatives), keeping off drugs, knowing that God dwells within the heart, and so forth.
Essentially Paul is following in the words of Jesus in that physical temples built with hands are just bricks and mortar (not a quote from Jesus but the essence of how he spoke of the Jerusalem temple). Bricks and mortar don't contain (much) of God. People are the temple of the living God - the emphasis on living, as we are living. But of course, Christian fundies are self-conceived 'sinners', so just don't 'get it' that God lives within them.
Superstition IMO has got to go from this world. Earth can only progress spiritually (in real spirituality, not just church-going) when Truth is known and superstition is eradicated. Superstition is one of the most dangerous things in the world, for if you have it, you can't see beyond it. In the opinion of many I know, one of the greatest superstitions prevalent on this planet right now is fundamentalist / evengelical / even mainstream Christian doctrine and dogma. It is so limiting, and doesn't fit in the better world many are attempting to create. In the end, IMO, it's gotta go. 😉
Obviously I don't mean Christianity in the positive sense, as in 'Christian living'. But if the religion is to survive the negative prgramming of 'we are sinners' and all the rest of it has got to go. And many of us know that over time it will.
Venetian
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
David you are a Superstar! 😀
being love
Kim xx
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
ORIGINAL: venetian
Just to go back a little higher in this thread, Mc wrote in reply to Kim:
ORIGINAL: mcnabbmcnow
and you are mistranslating the 2nd quote, in my opinion. It says your body is "the temple of the living God" and in context, it is talking about keeping yourself holy, away from sexual sin.
Away from sexual sin? That's your 'translation'?
The line is from St. Paul in 2 Corinthians 6:16. Of course there are various Bible versionsbut they all in this case say much the same thing. KJV has it, but check any other:
"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (KJV)
He's writing here about idols in the temple, and reminds his readers in Corinth "Ye are the temple of the living God". There's no reference here to sex and quite the opposite - he's talking about something else. Yet again we find a Christian hung up on sex, it seems. On 'sin'. I'm only realising now that whenever Mc has used the word 'sin' in threads he was at least often dealing with sex-guilt, it seems. I'm sorry, but I really do find this a sorrowful way to live. Implications of 'sex' are seen in texts even when they clearly are not there.But more upliftingly, Paul continues: "as God hath said [he's quoting the OT], I will dwell in them, and walk in them..." Paul is saying here what the New Age agrees with, that our body is a temple. In all respects. In fact, body, emotions, and thoughts. And so we hear often now the term "body temple" or people talking about "my body temple". If they are cognizant of what they are saying, and most are, they mean a very large host of things - nothing to do with feelings of guilt, for guilt itself pollutes the emotions - such as eating pure foods lacking as much as possible in chemicals (for many today it means being vegetarian), keeping healthy and fit if possible, thinking positively not negatively (fundamentalist Christianity seems focussed upon obsession with negatives), keeping off drugs, knowing that God dwells within the heart, and so forth.
Essentially Paul is following in the words of Jesus in that physical temples built with hands are just bricks and mortar (not a quote from Jesus but the essence of how he spoke of the Jerusalem temple). Bricks and mortar don't contain (much) of God. People are the temple of the living God - the emphasis on living, as we are living. But of course, Christian fundies are self-conceived 'sinners', so just don't 'get it' that God lives within them.
Superstition IMO has got to go from this world. Earth can only progress spiritually (in real spirituality, not just church-going) when Truth is known and superstition is eradicated. Superstition is one of the most dangerous things in the world, for if you have it, you can't see beyond it. In the opinion of many I know, one of the greatest superstitions prevalent on this planet right now is fundamentalist / evengelical / even mainstream Christian doctrine and dogma. It is so limiting, and doesn't fit in the better world many are attempting to create. In the end, IMO, it's gotta go. 😉
Obviously I don't mean Christianity in the positive sense, as in 'Christian living'. But if the religion is to survive the negative prgramming of 'we are sinners' and all the rest of it has got to go. And many of us know that over time it will.
Venetian
I hadn't looked at 2 Corinthians 6:16 and that was a top of the head remark I made to Sacred Star...I think I even said I think, not I know. It was not the verse I thought she was referring to. In the context, it's talking about Christians being yolked with non-Christians. This passage from verse 14-18is one reason I don't think a Christian sh
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Good day everyone,
Posting this topic is a bit like asking someone in the street, 'How are you?' then they actually tell you ...arrgghh!!!!!!
Reading all your responses it becomes clear to me that the Bible quoters are very entrenched in their beliefs and that like our Middle Eastern cultures I would suggest that you live firmly in the past. The spiritual respondents know that they are indeed a spark of the Ultimate Being (Him/Herself) and that there are codes within the Bible and other religious texts which have been, and always will be 'Truths of Spirit' ... honesty, integrity, loving thy neighbours, not judging, unconditional love... these are as valid now as they always were.
My premise was 'Is the Bible out of date in our society?' perhaps it is just the people who read it!
In love & light
Publisher
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Hi Publisher,
I must say that I did find the opening of your post above highly amusing. ;)As you see, it can be an emotive subject.
It was useful to hear the opinion of one who would totally disagree with your premise - Mc - and the thread got a bit sidetracked into replying to him. Moving back to your initial post, I'm sorry for sometimes complicating what may appear simple, and maybe it is! ;)- but I think there's no simple yes/no answer about the Bible. On the one hand, just IMHO, the essential message of the NT - I really mean the core message of the life and teachings of Jesus - is surely very important. On the other hand, the Bible as a whole? Ner, I must admit, I agree it's hardly relevant. Being a believer in continuing revelations from God, I wouldn't keep myself stuck on such old books anyway, but I do continue to see new and authentic revelations from God, IMHO, coming into the world. They appear more relevant to the present day.
On the Bible, the church, and Christianity in general, again it's not so simple. If we concentrate just upon the UK where most on this forum are from, statistically church attendance is declining. Christianity as a whole is shrinking here. But whereas some have cited this as a reduction in the spirituality of our culture(s), I disagree as I find spirituality is on the increase in many wonderful and IMHO authentic forms ... but I simply wouldn't know how to prove that in stats. However most of us know what I mean: just look under "Spirituality" in a good bookstore and see the impressive array there today.
Again, there are interesting contradictions and I don't think they have extremely simple answers. For instance, while church attendance in the UK is falling, and that includes in London, among Black people church attendance is rising here - quite quickly. (I just did a part-MA on this so can pretend to be a scholar and quote the latest findings. ;)) Fascinatingly this actually means that in London more Black people now attend church than white. I don't in the slightest mean to introduce any racist subject here, but simply point to the complexities. On the whole I'd agree that the overall falling off in attendance (which is only gradual and not precipitous) is, as you say, because the present form of the church(es) is out of date. I'm not suggesting that we go into the Black question here. Off the cuff, researchers would tend to say that it indicates how the church becomes a gathering point for them and gives them a sense of identity and self-worth as a minority group ... certainly this was definitely the case from the 50s to the 70s and those who formed the very first Black churches in the UKthen attest themselves to this. They were pushed out of white churches as unwanted, so formed initially Black 'house groups' which were as much social andinter-help places as religious.
In the present day I also think it's important for clear reasons to have a separation of 'church' (religion) and state. When a religion is used politically to run a state, all kinds of malpractices result, such as we now see in Iran, and saw under the Taliban. Arguably the situation is presently rather scary re the USA since the fundies have got into the White house for this administration too. Turkey is a fair example of an attempt, however imperfect, to keep the main religion (Islam) out of politics, maintaining democracy in the face of considerable pressures.
So different religions (more than the books, I'd say) may appeal to different cultures or sub-cultures, and for complex reasons. The perspective of your first post seems 'obvious' to the average Brit probably, but it's hard to put ourselves in the shoes of, say, someone born and raised as a Muslim in, say, Pakistan. Their mindset may be pretty hard for us to accept, and we may find it a bit simplistic and irrational, or out-of-step with today. But that's for them to figure out, right? What else should we do? Invade? Perish the thought that the West would do such a thing. :D(Ir
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
ORIGINAL: Publisher
Reading all your responses it becomes clear to me that the Bible quoters are very entrenched in their beliefs and that like our Middle Eastern cultures I would suggest that you live firmly in the past. The spiritual respondents know that they are indeed a spark of the Ultimate Being (Him/Herself) and that there are codes within the Bible and other religious texts which have been, and always will be 'Truths of Spirit' ... honesty, integrity, loving thy neighbours, not judging, unconditional love... these are as valid now as they always were.
My premise was 'Is the Bible out of date in our society?' perhaps it is just the people who read it!
In love & light
Publisher
I totally agree Publisher at the core of every religion we find the universal truths. How wonderful then that today in modern society that we are allowing (especially in Europe) children to think for themselves and to know this universal truth for themselves. I agree with Venetian Spirituality and Spiritual Independence today is stronger than ever before and this has been borne out by independent research carried out by the BBC and the corporate research organisation The Henley Centre. I was amazed in 1997 to receive a conference brochure from Henley stating that they were covering the subject ' The future of Spirituality in Britain' Henley advise governments and blue chip companies on future trends so that they can keep in step with the people and ensure they give the customer what they want........Maybe another reason why we are seeing so many sublimel spiritual messages in TV commercials and general advertising here in the UK.
I have no doubt at all that the New Spiritual Renaissance is coming from Europe.
Love beyond measure is the way........
Kim xx
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Dear Publisher,
As you say, the truth is at the centre of all religions. I believe that the INSPIRED word of all sacred texts will never be outdated. (I am talking here of the words that have come through divine revelation and which brings love, peace, comfort, supply, guidance, protection and healing; not the thousands of human opinions that permeate.)
I thought Darren gave an excellent reply.
Just one observation:
Publisher
It was the language of 'thou shalt not' - written so that the uneducated masses would have some semblence of order and constraint - elevating their religious leaders to demi-god status.
While Richard Dawkins last night dug out some ghastly examples of human opinions, the human part of the 10 Commandments given to Moses have formed the basis for just about every law we have in the democratic West and similar moral codes are to be found in all religions. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water! Without religious moral codes, we would all feel free to kill whoever and whenever we liked, there would be no structure in society and certainly no protection to women; we would be free to steal, to lie and slander and to commit perhaps violent acts out of jealousy and envy.
Richard Dawkins last night spoke about people acting morally only because they were afraid of hell and damnaton - I totally disagree. i believe we act rightly because it is our spiritual identity to reflect God's goodness. To me they human parts of the 10 Commandments should read:
BECAUSE I am the image and likeness of God, and God is Life itself, I cannot possibly kill. Life is eternal and Love's image and likeness cannot hate or harm.
BECAUSE I am the pure reflection of Spirit itself, I could not possibly adulterate myself or hurt the ones I love by being unfaithful, selfish and unloving.
BECAUSE I reflect Truth itself, I could not possibly steal, cheat, or take anything that does not belong to me.
BECAUSE I am the expression of Principle's being, therefore reflecting integrity always, I could not possibly slander my neighbour.
BECAUSE I am the beloved child of God, all that HeShe has is already mine and therefore I could not possibly covet anything that belongs to another. I have all I need because Soul has infinite recources with which to bless me and all mankind.
Love and peace,
Judy
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
IMO that's a fantastic explanation (with the "BECAUSE...." etc) or rather translation into modern understanding of why some things are not open to human opinion: they're 'Laws' built into the universe of what works in human behaviour for exactly the same reason that physical Laws such as gravity work in physics.
IMO correct moral codes given to religions are not given in order to control or manipulate, but are statements of what works in terms of the energies of our free-will use of life and consciousness. They're 'Laws' as in physics, and impersonal, because to 'transgress' them leads to - in my terminology - a return of karma. The transgression of the Laws always leads to a karmic return, So in the end the energy can't be used in any other way, long-term, anyway. The highest of religious scripture therefore saves us the time of making the mistakes and having to 'pay for it' later and learn, with all the time expended. We can use the energies of Life correctly, and learn correctly,first-time.
V
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Great post Venetian - I totally agree!
You've also reminded me of what I should have added - that I often think of the 10 Commandments like traffic lights. They are not there as an inconvenience, but as a protection.
The root of the word "sin" is "sunder" - to separate. Therefore, sin is a belief of being separate from God. It also means, as you said "The ways that do not work." Somewhere I have a great article about the Commandments and they quote something like "What Moses gave us was not the 10 Suggestions..." Love it! 🙂
I keep meaning to start a new thread on the spiritual interpretation of the 10 Commandments - you've had a lttle example above. I actually started writing it and just found the file - thought you'd like the beginning with the first two God-parts of the Commandments.
With the 10 Commandments, I love to view them in their spiritual light. I think of them as the 10 rules for happiness. They’re a bit like traffic lights – they might seem inconvenient, even redundant, but ignoring them can have unhappy results. I like to turn them around into blessings. For instance:
Because I love my Father-Mother God:
Nothing could be more important to me than the things of Spirit.
Neither could I allow anything but Love’s likeness to be engraved on my thought. I just could not allow in thoughts of anger, of hatred, of revenge, of disease because thoughts of love and goodness already have filled my mind....
Love and peace,
Judy
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
ORIGINAL: Principled
While Richard Dawkins last night dug out some ghastly examples of human opinions, the human part of the 10 Commandments given to Moses have formed the basis for just about every law we have in the democratic West and similar moral codes are to be found in all religions.
And some of these laws are in complete conflict with the universal spiritual laws.
{quote]
Don't throw out the baby with the bath water!
Well God did just that by stating in the OT that he would send a messenger with a new convenant to replace the old one.
Without religious moral codes, we would all feel free to kill whoever and whenever we liked, there would be no structure in society and certainly no protection to women; we would be free to steal, to lie and slander and to commit perhaps violent acts out of jealousy and envy.
I disagree if we taught children spiritual unfoldment their heart of conscience would come to the fore and inside every person is the universal spiritual laws because they are part of us.
Richard Dawkins last night spoke about people acting morally only because they were afraid of hell and damnaton - I totally disagree. i believe we act rightly because it is our spiritual identity to reflect God's goodness. To me they human parts of the 10 Commandments should read:
I agree with the atheists one does not need a belief in God or religion to live a moral and upstanding life.
Divine Love
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Hello again Publisher,
This to me is an illustration of why the Bible will never be out of date:
This woman earlier had suffered from a heart condition from birth and then injured her back which had made it all much worse. A friend suggested she try Christian Science and she’d been healed through the prayer of a practitioner in less than a week. However, later on, she was informed by a doctor that she had cancer and it was beyond help. In her own words:
"As I turned to God in prayer, I suddenly found myself thinking of Mary Baker Eddy’s experience – how she was instantaneously healed of severe injuries from an accident when she turned to her Bible for help. And so I immediately began a deep study of the Bible myself. The trouble had reached the stage where I could no longer take care of my home, so I had the whole day for study.
As I studied the Bible in connection with Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mrs Eddy, I found I was getting a clearer and clearer insight into the spiritual meaning of the Scriptures. I found new significance in the New Testament account of Jesus’ disciples. Not only the spiritual qualities of thought that each of the disciples represented, but the human failings each had to overcome.
For instance, Peter, who denied Jesus three times. And as I searched my own thoughts, I saw that I’d sometimes denied the Christ too. Saying I was sick was denying the Christ, Truth, which Jesus expressed in his healing work and which is always available.
And the two disciples who wanted to sit, one at the right hand and the other at the left hand of Jesus. They reminded me that I had thoughts of pride and vainglory to overcome.
But when it came to Judas, I said to myself, "Well, there’s one thing sure, I’ve never been like Judas." But then I thought, "His problem was jealousy." I bowed my head. I knew I’d been jealous at times. I’d long been jealous of a member of my family. Here was the root of the problem, and I saw that the solution lay in a better understanding of divine Love.
Then I thought of John, the beloved disciple. He expressed Love always, and Love can never be destroyed! And just as Jesus lovingly washed the feet of his disciples after the Passover supper, the understanding of the truth and love he taught could cleanse my thought of jealousy, doubt, pride, apathy – everything standing in the way of my healing.
And such was the case. It took a number of years, but these were fruitful years. There was a wonderful mental purging going on during that time, and it led to a complete healing. I was entirely healed and healthier and stronger than I’d ever been in my life. That was thirty years ago. (A century of Christian Science healing p. 149)
Surely this is what the Bible is really all about!
Love and peace,
Judy
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Hi Judy,
I thought this thread was finished, but I just wanted to say that you are right! If you love the teachings in the Bible - I think that is great. If you look upon your fellow man, black, white, yellow, heterosexual, homosexual, man, woman, child, Pope or prisoner knowing that all are equal in the sight of God, then for you the Bible is working and I applaud you.
But we live in a world that 'judges' constantly - and then many quote from religious texts: the Bible or Koran to justify 'their' interpretation of text written thousands of years ago. The spiritual truths and laws within these texts are, and will always be true. Truth is truth.
But the new texts which contain only unconditional love have been given again so that the errors of the past - which continue to set man against man -can be put right.
Have a lovely day
Publisher
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
ORIGINAL: Publisher
But the new texts which contain only unconditional love have been given again so that the errors of the past - which continue to set man against man - can be put right.
Have a lovely day
Publisher
I agree Publisher
Divine Love
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Thank you Publisher for a beautiful post above and like Kim, I agree with you 100%.
Mary Baker Eddy, whose great mission was to "reinstate primitive Christianity with its lost element of healing" wrote at the end of the 19th Century:
"This age is reaching out towards the perfect Principle of things; is pushing towards perfection in art, invention, and manufacture. Why, then, should religion be stereotyped, and we not obtain a more perfect and practical Christianity?.......
This movement of thought must push on the ages: it must start the wheels of reason aright, educate the affections to higher resources, and leave Christianity unbiased by the superstitions of a senior period." (Miscellaneaous Writings p 232)
Love and peace,
Judy
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Yes Judy and not only healing but 'Good Works' recently Mc inferred that he did not consider that Christianity was about good works but faith. However, it is clear that the whole of the mission was about good works and spreading the new covenant of love that would help people to move their energy into their hearts; so that they would be compelled by love to help others. I view this text where he is speaking to his own; that the goats represent the selfishness of the carnal and literal mindset and the comparison with the sheep; the gentle lamb, patient and like-minded, likened to himself in thought, word and deed.
Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Christianity certainly went astray.........just like goats are known to do. Goats that look after themselves, usually the loners on the mountain sides. He gave an interesting comparison here as we know goats have horns.....
Divine Love
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
I'm going into the lion's den again!
Having read the bible from cover to cover for the first time last year and doing so again at the moment and having lived a very varied lifeand interesting life (Judy I was also a Flight Attendant for many years) I know for sure that the bible is as relevant today as it was when the scriptures were written. It's what never ceases to amaze me about the Lord, the way he responds to today's issues through his word set down milleniums ago.
You see we all think we're different from people back then with different problems etc but the reality is, humanity is the same today with the same problems and issues of those at the beginning of creation and those of tomorrow will have the same needs, thoughts, problems etc because we all come from the same templates so to speak........
Chistianity is faith in Jesus not just good works, but if the holy spirit is in you you can't not walk in the Lord's way without doing good works and caring for others through faith in Jesus.
[sm=nature-smiley-008.gif]Have a lovely weekend
RE: Is the Bible/Koran out of date in our society?
Personally, since the Bble isn't a book but a collection of books (so it's fine to read some of it and not the rest of it), I find most of the NT riveting and almost all of the loooooong OT unspeakably boring and utterly irrelevant to today.
I by no means go with it all - such as popular stuff such as "Conversations With God" and other pop-New-Age stuff which leaves me cold - but I find if you have discernment there's new and living scripture relevant to today being written today, far more relevant than the OT and in fact simply better in terms of literature and ofhelpfulness to the reader.
V