Forgiveness

I was listening to "Good Morning Sunday" today and was very impressed by an interview with Desmond Tutu's daughter.

Here's a link and a bit of blurb:

(it's 15 mins long)

Rev Mpho Tutu 15 JUN 14
Duration:
15 mins 

Available:
30 days remaining
The Reverend Mphu Tutu is an Episcopal Priest and Executive Director of The Desmond & Leah Tutu Legacy Foundation. She's the daughter of Archbishop Desmond Tutu who chaired South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and with whom she has co-authored "The Book of Forgiving", published in April. At the beginning of May they launched together "The Tutu Global Forgiveness Challenge" to help everyone learn how to forgive and see the benefits of forgiveness in their own lives.
There is a photo of her on this page - - she’s stunningly beautiful.

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy,

While I agree with everything you've said, I think people have to arrive at forgiveness in their own time. It must be measured and thought out and can take years for it to happen. True forgiveness is very spiritual and real.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx

Hi Patsy,

Hi Judy,

While I agree with everything you've said, I think people have to arrive at forgiveness in their own time. It must be measured and thought out and can take years for it to happen. True forgiveness is very spiritual and real.

Love,
Patsy.
xxxxx

The tragic thing is though that some people never reach forgiveness - at least in this present experience - and they live miserable, tortured lives. When you look back at the reasons behind so many national and ethnic conflicts, so often, the holding onto past resentments is what is behind it - like Northern Ireland, many of the conflicts in Africa and the Middle East for instance.

When we forgive, we''re not letting anyone off the hook - all will have to face up to the pain they have caused others and change their thinking at some point - but NOT forgiving hurts US, not the perpetrator of the crime.

This is being recognised more and more in secular as well as religious and spiritual practices. Here's something from the Harvard Medical School.

It links to "The 5 Health Benefits of Forgiveness" which starts off:

Buddha once said, “Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.”

Love and peace,

Judy

Hey Patsy,

Now you've got me going, having Googled the topic! It's one of my favourite subjects! 😉

This one has an actual experience in it, which I always prefer. Loads of abstract theory without examples I feel are meaningless.

This below is one of my favourite examples of the benefits of forgiveness:

A Jewish lawyer, nicknamed Wild Bill Cody, was in a prisoner of war camp during WWII.

New prisoners assumed that Wild Bill had only just arrived at the camp, because his posture was erect, his eyes bright and his energy indefatigable. However, it turned out that he had been there longer than most, but the difference was love.

“Hate had just killed the six people who mattered most to me in the world. I decided then that I would spend the rest of my life, whether it was a few days or many years, loving every person I came in contact with."

Loving every person . . . this was the power that had kept a man well in the face of every privation.

A Christian pastor, had a terrible call one day to say that his son had been shot and killed.

The anger and hate he felt was destroying him and he realised he had to forgive, as Jesus had directed. This is the letter he wrote to his son's murderer who was in prison:

The rest of the story is here:
/uncommon-bond/

And here's the video:

It's less than 6 minutes long - please watch it everyone!

I've got another wonderful story about a Jewish couple who were being persecuted by a member of the Ku Klux Klan, which I will share later, but if anyone knows of similar stories of forgiveness from other religions (or none) I and I'm sure many others would love to hear them.

Love and peace,

Judy

The point that is usually missed surrounding the topic of forgiveness, is that without the input of a judgment to drive the need for forgiveness, then there is simply nothing to forgive. 🙂

The point that is usually missed surrounding the topic of forgiveness, is that without the input of a judgment to drive the need for forgiveness, then there is simply nothing to forgive. 🙂

The trouble is Paul, that most of us are human and feel human emotions and are not able to rise to the heights you obviously can!

Have you ever had one of your children murdered? Has your wife ever been brutally raped at knife point in front of you?

I simply can't imagine what that must feel like and how impossible it must be to try to make sense of it, so not having experienced something like that myself, I wouldn't even start to judge others who are not able to reach the heights of your philosophy. I'd rather take their hand and love them.

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy

I have experienced lots of things in my life experience and none of my experiences have stopped me being a human being, yes I have experienced things that have, through the divisional judgments that I chose to create at the time, created lots of emotional fall out as well as overwhelming pain and suffering at times, so I am well conversed in what it means to be judgmental and the effects that it has upon our wholeness and self worth etc.

I do not say that it is right or wrong to be judgmental (as that would be a judgment concerning people's personal choices), I was simply pointing out the reality that if we remove the judgments from a life experience, then there is nothing to forgive, once an experience has finished, it no longer exists outside of our thoughts; judgmental thoughts will keep it in focus and alive within our whole being from moment to moment; acceptance on the other hand will allow us to move forward and embrace and accept the next experience as it unfolds around us.

Although I fully embrace the reality, that I am living in a judgmental world with all of the pain and suffering that it is creating, I also accept the reality that we all have a choice to embrace that judgmentality or we can choose to become non judgmental.

Hi Judy

once an experience has finished, it no longer exists outside of our thoughts; l.

Hi Paul
Is this really true. I can't see love ever finishing. To me it is a Divine, or Universal law that we do not have control of...Even after physical death I believe that this law, created as a bond between us, still exists.

Hi Paul
Is this really true. I can't see love ever finishing. To me it is a Divine, or Universal law that we do not have control of...Even after physical death I believe that this law, created as a bond between us, still exists.

Are you saying that you believe that the experience of that universal love ever finishes?

Hi Scommstech

Hi Paul
Is this really true. I can't see love ever finishing. To me it is a Divine, or Universal law that we do not have control of...Even after physical death I believe that this law, created as a bond between us, still exists.

Personally I do not perceive anything emotional about the oneness in which I perceive we are all one, it just is what it is, wholeness.

Love is an emotion and like any other emotion, it requires a physical body that is capable of creating the right physiological response for us to be able to perceive it.

I know from personal experience as well as from the experience of healing countless people, that when we remove the judgmental attachments that where created surrounding something that happened in the past, then the only feeling that is left is absolutely nothing.

Why it should astound people I don't know, but they always seem astounded that they can think and talk about about something quite openly that was unmentionable before the healing set them free and feel absolutely nothing!

Hi Scommstech

Personally I do not perceive anything emotional about the oneness in which I perceive we are all one, it just is what it is, wholeness.

Love is an emotion and like any other emotion, it requires a physical body that is capable of creating the right physiological response for us to be able to perceive it.

I know from personal experience as well as from the experience of healing countless people, that when we remove the judgmental attachments that where created surrounding something that happened in the past, then the only feeling that is left is absolutely nothing.

Why it should astound people I don't know, but they always seem astounded that they can think and talk about about something quite openly that was unmentionable before the healing set them free and feel absolutely nothing!

Sorry Paul

I tried to select a portion of your post to reply to and it appears that I just resent the whole thing. Sorry.

What I was going to say was that yes what you describe as removing probable-some attachments that hang on from the past is gaining a wider understanding in some circles.
However the issue of love if accepted in the conventional understanding has been challenged in that it should really be seen as the "invisible " bonding of and between "souls", for want of a better description. The Quantum people talk of a Zero Point Field that encompasses all. This to some is the "true love". Not an actual emotion but a genuine force. Some say that we are actually a part of the force. It is the source of our true identity. That which was a part of Creation.

Hi Scommstech

Sorry Paul

I tried to select a portion of your post to reply to and it appears that I just resent the whole thing. Sorry.

What I was going to say was that yes what you describe as removing probable-some attachments that hang on from the past is gaining a wider understanding in some circles.

I personally do not perceive any attachments to the past within self or anyone else, I only perceive what we are creating for self right now, I do see judgments that were created in the past and are still creating divisional conflicts within people, but they are not past divisional conflicts, they are current conflicts that are creating pain and suffering in the Now or current moment.

However the issue of love if accepted in the conventional understanding has been challenged in that it should really be seen as the "invisible " bonding of and between "souls", for want of a better description. The Quantum people talk of a Zero Point Field that encompasses all. This to some is the "true love". Not an actual emotion but a genuine force. Some say that we are actually a part of the force. It is the source of our true identity. That which was a part of Creation.

People perceive things in different ways, when I encountered the oneness of consciousness and attempted to relate it to my physicality, then I can only describe what I experienced as a void in relation to my ability to sense the world around me through my physical senses, but I then realised that consciousness is not physical in nature.

Our consciousness is our creative power, we are all manipulating the world around us all of the time to create different things to experience. Beyond what we perceive as self within our physicality and our thinking mind, I perceive that everything is one within consciousness, outside of our judgmental creations of separateness and the divisions that we create within and around us there is wholeness; wholeness is complete without any divisional judgments, which is why I interpreted my first encounter with the oneness of consciousness as a void experience.

Now they say that children are all aware of the oneness as they are closer to where they have come from and know how to function and experience in the Now, but what is termed as love, is something that I did not encounter in my life experience until I was in my teens.

In my life experience I have observed love being given in one moment and taken away in another moment, I have seen love used to emotionally blackmail others in diverse ways, I have seen that love is one of many attributes that we as human beings possess and have within our armory to use to enrich our life experiences through emotional judgments, I have not found love in the oneness of consciousness, only a sense of acceptance that we are all one within the oneness of consciousness.

The creative force is consciousness, there is thought and there is harmony and wholeness within the oneness of consciousness.

Paul, you are talking about the human emotion love, while I (and I'm pretty sure Scomm too) am talking about infinite divine Love, which the human emotion is a mere shadow of. Chalk and cheese.

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy

Yes, I understand the concept of divine attributes and whilst I do not wish to derail a discussion on forgiveness, I do not understand is why the divine attribute of love is being singled out and put forward as the one that binds us all together! Rather than the other divine attributes of hate, war, peace, suffering, joy, lust, retribution, forgiveness etc?

Hi Judy

Yes, I understand the concept of divine attributes and whilst I do not wish to derail a discussion on forgiveness, I do not understand is why the divine attribute of love is being singled out and put forward as the one that binds us all together! Rather than the other divine attributes of hate, war, peace, suffering, joy, lust, retribution, forgiveness etc?

Hi Paul
Can I have a stab at this.

Love will encompass all the higher attributes, Joy, Harmony, peace ,etc. These to me are "default" values. The others, as far as I can see have been "man" made, in that they would not have been part of any initial creation.

You can't have war before peace, as you can't have anything broken before the original. Just the same as we can't forgive unless in our eyes something to forgive exists.

Excellent post Scomm!

I do not understand is why the divine attribute of love is being singled out and put forward as the one that binds us all together! Rather than the other divine attributes of hate, war, peace, suffering, joy, lust, retribution, forgiveness etc?

Ah! Now I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from Paul.

Love really is the way we can best understand the divine. But to me, the divine is not only Love, but also Life itself, Truth, Spirit, Soul, Mind, the Source of all intelligence and Principle. Under those seven categories, or, as I see them, synonyms for God are countless attributes. From divine Love come qualities like compassion, gentleness, patience, kindness, omnipresence, boundless bliss etc. From Life comes qualities like eternity, being, vivaciousness, energy, imperishable glory etc. From Spirit comes true substance, light, radiance, gratitude, the perfection of being etc. From Truth comes honesty, liberty, fidelity, sincerity, perfection etc. From Soul comes joy, harmony, peace, grace, forgiveness, the beauty of holiness etc. From Mind comes wisdom, understanding, intelligence, discernment, clarity, reason, sight, hearing, omniscience, omnipotence etc. From Principle comes law, structure, stability, constancy, progress, justice, equality, strength etc.

Just contemplating these divine attributes has often brought healing to many people, like a woman who was told by a dentist that she needed urgent dental surgery and he sent her to hospital with her X-rays. As she drove, she decided to spend the two hours before he had booked the surgery praying through expressing gratitude for the spiritual nature (or unseen reality) of everything that came into her experience during the time before the surgery.

She saw in the cars on the roads, symbols of mobility, agility, usefulness and comfort. She saw that the lines on the roads symbolised safety, control, order, harmony. Traffic lights spoke to her of obedience, perfection, alertness and honesty. As she looked at the houses, she saw originality, beauty, colour, design, substantiality and inspiration. Trees that gave shade and homes for animals, evidenced supply, provision, loveliness, purification of the universe.

When she arrived at the hospital, she continued to include and embrace everyone she met, with love. They took another set of X-rays, and the dentist examined her tooth, but could not believe his eyes as the new X-rays showed no need for surgery. In two hours, filled with love, gratitude and spiritual perception, the whole picture changed.

Originally from The Christian Science Journal, May 1987 and also in God, Physics and Metaphysics by J Geis.)

What dominates thought dominates our days. This woman filled her thought with attributes of the divine (what I call God), not of their counterfeits! Had she filled her thought with (to take some of the counterfeits you mentioned Paul) hate, war, suffering, lust and retribution, there is absolutely no way she would have had that wonderful healing. When we reach the divine in our consciousness, then wonderful things happen. 🙂

Love and peace,

Judy

HI Scommstech

There can be no higher or lower anything within wholeness, because all is one. 😉

HI Judy

I think you have missed a few out of that list from my memories of studying the bible many years ago, such as jealousy, wroth, retribution etc, which have been defined within the bible, so I am not so sure that they can be classified as counterfeits, but I can see how they will not help someone to become healed. 🙂

Hi Paul,

Really interesting observations, which deserve a good answer, which I don't have time for right now - or tomorrow, but hopefully will be back on Tuesday!
Just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you! 😉

HI Judy

I think you have missed a few out of that list from my memories of studying the bible many years ago, such as jealousy, wroth, retribution etc, which have been defined within the bible, so I am not so sure that they can be classified as counterfeits, but I can see how they will not help someone to become healed. 🙂

Hi Paul,

As you know, primitive man had no explanation for natural disasters, so fear and superstition made him come to the conclusion that, for instance, if a community was struck by lightning, then that meant they must have sinned and were being punished for it. Sacrifices were made to appease the gods – sometimes even human sacrifices. These practices were found in many ancient cultures and even when thousands of years later, the Israelites were shown, through Abraham, the concept of one God, the ancient superstitions and fears were still in their consciousness and Jehovah was considered a tribal, rather anthropomorphic God, who would fight their wars for them.

Many centuries later than that, the prophet Naham wrote down a vision:

Nahum 1:
2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
5-6 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

That was obviously a volcano he was describing, but volcanic destruction has been attributed to wrathful nature gods for millennia and here we see that concept continuing.

The Bible is a collection of many books, written by many different men of differing levels of spiritual insight and understanding. (There are some Christians who will call me a heretic for saying that, but so be it).

However, all the way through (especially in the New Testament, where Jesus showed us the highest sense of God as Love) we get glimpses of the nurturing and protecting Deity of Light and Love. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, there are many places (Ps 91 is one) where the name for God is El Shaddai – the Breasted One – the compassionate Motherhood of God (and yet of course, infinite Spirit is not an anthropomorphic man or woman!) But we can only describe in inadequate human language what we glimpse of the infinite and this is where I think people have sometimes misinterpreted what God is and given Him human emotions and characteristics, even when they have been shown that was not the case, like Elijah when he hid in a cave and was told to stand on a mountain:

I Kings 19:
And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Not in mortal emotions, not in rage and noise and destruction, we instead find the infinite in quietness, gentleness and harmony. Again and again, people have found that when they move their thoughts of God away from the anthropomorphic, material and mortal to the spiritual and harmonious, healing comes.

These are two articles that include wonderful healings that came when the wrong concept of a judgemental, punishing God was exchanged for the correct understanding that God is all-inclusive, unconditional, everpresent, omnipotent Love and Life:
[url]My journey from terminal to joyful and healthy[/url]

[url]Now my heart sings[/url]

And the other thing I wanted to share is how it's possible that (because we don't have the originals of the Bible documents) certain words may have been mistranslated over time. This article describes how, for instance, the Hebrew word rendered 'vengeance', quite probably should have been translated deliverance or redemption.

[url] "Deliverance without vengeance" [/url]

I'll try to get back to forgiveness tomorrow!

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy

Yes, when we remember that the bible did not begin to be written until after the exodus from Egypt and Abraham came from the land of Summer that had the long history of Mesopotamia contained within it, with records of the flood etc, which gave a different version of the account that was later put into the bible. So about the nearest things that was current, as the bible started to be written, would be the record of the Passover, exodus and Moses going up the mountain to receive the laws of God and appealing to God to put aside his jealousy and wroth, to not destroy his people for looking towards the other Gods for comfort when Moses did not return down the mountain for a long time.

I can understand that when the full bible is read and studied with the various interpretations of the words that can be used, that it would appear that the God of the old testament who visited the Egyptians with all sorts of things including the angels of death, seems to be a different God to the one that the new testament portrays, until we get to Revelations; but it is still the same God that it is talking about, though much of the nature of God that is depicted in the old testament has been replaced in the new testament with a message of love and forgiveness for those who choose to repent and obey God.

Before I studied the bible on my own with a Greek version and lexicon to see the different way that it could be interpreted into English, I can remember studying the bible with the Jehovah's Witnesses, you would be shown a few selected phrases from different parts of the bible and told that it meant such and such in a different book, when I asked if they read the bible as a book on its own to get the full picture, I was told that was not the way that they studied the bible!

Now to my understanding if we wish to understand the nature of the God that is portrayed within the bible, then we do not cherry pick bits of the scriptures to create a partial interpretation, we need to digest the whole book and accept everything that is written in it, to be able to receive the message that is contained within it about the nature of the God that the bible depicts.

As you know, primitive man had no explanation for natural disasters, so fear and superstition made him come to the conclusion that, for instance, if a community was struck by lightning, then that meant they must have sinned and were being punished for it.

This seems to me to be a huge assumption. Could you give me some evidence, please?

Now to my understanding if we wish to understand the nature of the God that is portrayed within the bible, then we do not cherry pick bits of the scriptures to create a partial interpretation, we need to digest the whole book and accept everything that is written in it, to be able to receive the message that is contained within it about the nature of the God that the bible depicts.

Interesting post Paul! And yes, that is exactly what most people would say, but I repeat that from experience, holding in our thought the concept of a god who has human emotions and selects some to be saved and others not, is not the God that Jesus' life reflected and how he demonstrated his authority over forces of matter and disease and ultimately death. Jesus overturned so many of the long-held rules and regulations - he wasn't about dogma, but about living what he taught.

For instance, Mosaic law said, "an eye for an eye" but Jesus said, in his sublime Sermon on the Mount:

38 ‘You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43 ‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.” 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Cont below...

Continued.

Jesus called evil, "a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. " John 8:44

Revelations is a coded message to the early church, which was being persecuted at the time. It is full of symbolism. It describes the warfare between good and evil, between the real and unreal.

"And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back, but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. "Rev:12:7-9

This corresponds with the prophecy in Isaiah 25:

"And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it"

The whole mortal scene of limitation, of suffering, of evil, is all an imposition on our thinking. We have been and are being deceived and have bought into it, lock, stock and barrel. A bit like with the original Matrix, when Neo discovers the truth about the matrix, a mysterious force that is manipulating human reality

Jesus came to show mankind a way of thinking and living that would destroy the deception of evil, of limitation, of suffering. He said:

"To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth." John 18:37

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Evil never belonged, never was part of, the pure spiritual idea of man, the image and likeness of God. It is evil, the counterfeit, that gets destroyed - just like a furnace burns off the dross to reveal the pure gold. Speaking of St John's vision of the new heaven and the new earth, Mary Baker Eddy writes:

The Revelator was on our plane of existence, while yet beholding what the eye cannot see,—that which is invisible to the uninspired thought. This testimony of Holy Writ sustains the fact in Science, that the heavens and earth to one human consciousness, that consciousness which God bestows, are spiritual, while to another, the unillumined human mind, the vision is material. This shows unmistakably that what the human mind terms matter and spirit indicates states and stages of consciousness.

Accompanying this scientific consciousness was another revelation, even the declaration from heaven, supreme harmony, that God, the divine Principle of harmony, is ever with men, and they are His people. Thus man was no longer regarded as a miserable sinner, but as the blessed child of God. Why? Because St. John’s corporeal sense of the heavens and earth had vanished, and in place of this false sense was the spiritual sense, the subjective state by which he could see the new heaven and new earth, which involve the spiritual idea and consciousness of reality. This is Scriptural authority for concluding that such a recognition of being is, and has been, possible to men in this present state of existence,—that we can become conscious, here and now, of a cessation of death, sorrow, and pain.
Science and Health 573:3-27

This seems to me to be a huge assumption. Could you give me some evidence, please?

Hi Crowan,

When the Boxing Day tsunami came, there were people of some religions saying that the victims were being punished for their sins. This idea is engrained in human consciousness and it goes way further back than the Bible.

I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of years ago (if not more) from what I've read in history books and from archeological findings etc. I remember watching a television programme talking about how human sacrifices were thrown into volcanoes to placate the god of the volcano, but can't remember which civilization that was. Nature was an all encompassing force, that had a huge effect on people's lives, sometimes benign, sometimes destructive and nature and sun worship naturally were the roots of religious belief.

The ancient civilisations of the Americas are also well known for their human sacrifices. Aztec priests believed that the sacrifices they performed in the temples on top of pyramids - cutting out the still-beating heart of their victims with the blood flowing down the steps of the pyramid - were necessary to keep the sun on its daily path….Within the Inca empire of South America, children and teenagers were sacrificed to the sun god...Within the Inca empire of South America, children and teenagers were sacrificed to the sun god, bestowing considerable prestige on the child's parents and on their local community.

Not very nice, but to me, it explains where the wrong concept of a god of wrath, judgmentalism and human emotions comes from, rather than infinite, divine Love.

Love and peace,

Judy

Well Crowan, I just had a little Google and crikey – there were more than a few thunder gods!! not all of course punishing ones, but certainly strong, anthropomorphic, masculine, ferocious etc!

And there was this one:

Lei Gong (‘Duke of Thunder’) or the Thunder God is one of the officials in the Ministry of Thunder and Storm in heaven. He is also one of the deities that are recognized by both Taoism and Buddhism. His job is to punish people guilty of moral crimes and evil entities using the Taoist magic to harm others.

Hi Judy

Yes, I forgot that Christians follow the teachings of Christ, just as the Jews follow the laws of God, when I am referring to the God of the bible, I am not talking about the teachings of Christ, so when I say that is seems that to label God as love does not reveal the true nature of God, I am evaluating that statement against the way that God is portrayed within the bible through the way that he dealt with his chosen people and the world around them as described in the bible.

Hi Crowan,
When the Boxing Day tsunami came, there were people of some religions saying that the victims were being punished for their sins. This idea is engrained in human consciousness and it goes way further back than the Bible.
I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of years ago (if not more) from what I've read in history books and from archeological findings etc. I remember watching a television programme talking about how human sacrifices were thrown into volcanoes to placate the god of the volcano, but can't remember which civilization that was. Nature was an all encompassing force, that had a huge effect on people's lives, sometimes benign, sometimes destructive and nature and sun worship naturally were the roots of religious belief.
Not very nice, but to me, it explains where the wrong concept of a god of wrath, judgmentalism and human emotions comes from, rather than infinite, divine Love.
Love and peace,
Judy

Hundreds of thousands of years ago? Homo sapiens arose about two hundred thousand years ago. The types of beliefs that are generally thought of as ‘religion’ now – a belief in gods or a god – is believed to have started (with a sort of proto-Hinduism) in Asia about 2,500 years ago.
Animism and shamanism reach back to the Palaeolithic. That is, in many parts of the world, over 10,000 years ago. They are believed, by many anthropologists (e.g. Vitebsky) to be the basis of all more recent religions.
There’s no evidence from then of ‘sin’ or ‘punishment’ – these ideas seem to have arisen much later as those in authority (kings, priests etc.) sought ways of controlling the population.
Nature was indeed an all encompassing force – and early humans were part of nature. There is only a need for placating and for the type of sacrifice that you are talking about once humans have started seeing themselves as essentially separate from nature. This seems to have happened around the start of the Neolithic. The type of behaviour you describe seemed to arise around the end of the Neolithic.

Hundreds of thousands of years ago? Homo sapiens arose about two hundred thousand years ago. The types of beliefs that are generally thought of as ‘religion’ now – a belief in gods or a god – is believed to have started (with a sort of proto-Hinduism) in Asia about 2,500 years ago.

Ah thanks for the history lesson Crowan - I never was any good at it! 😳

Nature was indeed an all encompassing force – and early humans were part of nature. There is only a need for placating and for the type of sacrifice that you are talking about once humans have started seeing themselves as essentially separate from nature.

Yes, I agree - though I would put it once humans started seeing themselves as separate from God - from ALL that is!

love and peace,

Judy

Getting back to the topic of forgiveness:

In her book, Not By the Sword, Kathryn Watterson tells the story of Michael Weisser, a Jewish cantor, and his wife Julie. They had just moved to their new home in Lincoln, Nebraska in June 1991, when their unpacking was interrupted by a threatening phone call.

This was followed by continual harassment and threats. The Weissers learnt that their persecutor was one Larry Trapp, the Grand Dragon of the local Ku Klux Klan .
Trapp was wheelchair bound and suffering from diabetes, yet making plans to bomb B'nai Jeshuran, the synagogue where Weisser was cantor.

Michael Weisser decided to return the calls, trying to reason with Trapp. He went on to leave 10 such messages. Remarkably, the calls touched Trapp. "When Michael started calling my racist hotline, I could sense something in his voice that I hadn’t heard before…something I hadn’t experienced. It was love," he later described tearfully.

There are further details here - do read it, it's inspirational!

Love and peace,

Judy