Extreme Pilgrim - BBC2

Yet Another great heads-up from you Spidey... thanks:)

I loved it, really enjoyed how he suddenly started to get 'it', and how his movements greatly improved once he started to integrate his breathing... hope some of the lads on the Tai Chi/Qigong forum saw it.

really looking forward to seeing how he copes in the Himalayas next week

I loved this programme - but then I loved the Monastery and the Convent and whatever they called the one about the people at a Muslim (Sufi) retreat in Spain. Hats off to Peter Owen Jones; it looked like really hard work but he kept at it and as Roger says, finally appeared to 'get it'. Next week when he's with the 'babas' should be very interesting.

xxx

i caught this by accident last night and really enjoyed it - it did convey a sort of peace.

but, when a westerner asks a buddhist monk "whats it all about" i find the answer a kinda whimsy. (i'm not going to make much sense, i know cos i cant think of the exact bit i am referring to). buddhists monks living in these remote temples have nothing else to do but empty their minds and practise. so, to them, it is simple.

i loved how everything they did was done flowingly... except eating, it seems :). (hey rog, do ya practise qi gong on the roof? :p)

but surely its not possible to truly live like that in the west... is it?

Yes, I watched it too and while I felt a great lack of spirituality from him at the beginning, it was wonderful to watch him relax into it at the second monastery.

I had to laugh at the first place when the monk next to him suddenly clasped his hands together and shut his eyes and Peter asked him "Are you meditating?" and the reply was "Oh no, I'm just having my photo taken" and at the window were a crowd of tourists!

I'm looking forward to the future programmes too. I can't help wondering whether he will still be an Anglican priest when he finishes.

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Rosie,

You posted while I was writing.

You have brought up something that went through my mind too! They don't have mortgages and bills to pay, children to provide for etc. As wonderful as it all must be to live like that - they rely on others to provide their supplies. I can't help wondering how do they pay for the food that is brought up the mountain, or is everything donated? (I was struck by those bottles of French mineral water being carried up those steep steps - surely you don't build a mountain resort without a nearby spring?)

What I am actually asking is, at the end of the day, while the peaceful benefit to themselves is huge, what good are they actually doing for humanity?

Sorry if I sound critical - but monasteries exist within all traditions and I personally see them as self-centred, not humanity-centred, except those that send their disciples out to do charitable work. Yeah, I'm thinking here of when I visited Mother Teresa's orphanage in Calcutta. The love and joy expressed by those nuns was palpable - like it was with the monks last night, but what good were those monks doing anyone but themselves?

From what I can see, you can embody that stillness and harmony in your own life, people do, through prayer, through meditation, through qui gong etc and use it as a base for their lives. Monasteries certainly fulfill an inner spiritual need for their disciples, but surely they should be include a farm and a natural supply of water and can be self-sufficient - especially perched up on the side of a mountain like that.

Just my musings.....

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy.

And a happy new year to you too....and to all.

I don't have telly but this sounds a fascinating series.
I have to agree with your musings....it is very easy to demonstrate spirituality when all is rosy, or when you are secluded with everything provided.
The real 'test' of spirituality comes when the s**t is hitting the fan and/or everything is falling apart. That is when the true character and strength of faith is proven, and whether one is indeed capable of actually walking their faith, with no hesitation, through the mire.

It takes tremendous courage to be faithful to your faith during these times.
but then that is what the test of faith is all about, isn't it.:rolleyes:

you can embody that stillness and harmony in your own life, people do, through prayer, through meditation, through qui gong etc and use it as a base for their lives.

Absolutely. We can still enjoy living in the West with a more spiritual approach to everyday life.

-Darren

PS it's "qi", pronounced "chi".

I don't have telly but this sounds a fascinating series.
I have to agree with your musings....it is very easy to demonstrate spirituality when all is rosy, or when you are secluded with everything provided.
The real 'test' of spirituality comes when the s**t is hitting the fan and/or everything is falling apart. That is when the true character and strength of faith is proven, and whether one is indeed capable of actually walking their faith, with no hesitation, through the mire.

Yep. When the crunch time happens, our spirituality is determined by our behaviour.

Dunno about the faith bit. One doesn't need to believe in a god (or gods) to be spiritual.

General comment: I missed most of the programme. 🙁

I was also surprised by his apparent lack of spirituality considering his background.

Having faith does not mean having to believe in any God.

Having faith, for me, is following that inner voice; intuition; guidance.
To follow yourself, through the mire; to follow that voice within when everything is chaotic around you, is being faithful to yourself and to the way of life that feels right for yourself.

And as you move within your faith, life moves with you and for you.

This is currently on BBC iPlayer for the next 7 days for anyone that missed it and wants to watch it...

...either on the front page or under the 'religion/ethics' section.

Lisa x

What I am actually asking is, at the end of the day, while the peaceful benefit to themselves is huge, what good are they actually doing for humanity?

Sorry if I sound critical - but monasteries exist within all traditions and I personally see them as self-centred,

Perhaps the point is that their lives can be Self-centred (as in higher self)

As wonderful as it all must be to live like that - they rely on others to provide their supplies.

Or God?

Yeah, I'm thinking here of when I visited Mother Teresa's orphanage in Calcutta. The love and joy expressed by those nuns was palpable - like it was with the monks last night, but what good were those monks doing anyone but themselves?

I have experience of a community that does a lot of charitable work, the monks have taken vows of poverty and obedience and their lives are hard and very disciplined. I know most of us could not follow their lifestyle.

In Britain, if a monastic life was so easy and attractive, then why are more people not living it?

Monasteries certainly fulfill an inner spiritual need for their disciples, but surely they should be include a farm and a natural supply of water and can be self-sufficient

The community I have experience of is just like that.

I don't know about many other communities, but perhaps the ones that are doing their job properly can be seen as spiritual oases, and I don't think you can ever have too many of those.

(I don't have a telly either, so maybe all I've written here is not entirely relevant :))

This is currently on BBC iPlayer for the next 7 days for anyone that missed it and wants to watch it...

...either on the front page or under the 'religion/ethics' section.

Lisa x

Thank you!!!

Hi Barafundle,

I think your views were entirely appropriate - it absolutely doesn't matter whether you've watched the programme of not - but it would be worth viewing - from your computer.

Also, Peter Owen Jones was interviewed on the radio by Aled Jones on "Good Morning Sunday" this morning (6 Jan) and you can listen again for a week.
He comes on about 1hr 20 mins into the show.

Love and peace,

Judy

Just want to remind everyone that programme two is tomorrow night - Friday.

We can all chat again on Sat! 😎

Judy

I hope to watch it. Caught the last 20 minutes of last weeks one. Really enjoyed it too!

Who else watched last night's episode? Honestly, as I am fairly familiar with the conventions of the Kumbh Mela and its participants are quite well known, I have to admit to, at times, rolling on the floor laughing at what this poor man is going through in his search for enlightenment. He's certainly going for it one hundred per cent. Mind you, having helped with the making of a documentary on Hinduism in India a couple of years ago, I can imagine just how set up some of the scenes really were. For example, it's all very well for him to carry on about being alone in his cave but he would have had at least three other members of the production team with him all the time, so solitude doesn't really signify. But he must have found time to practise his headstand, given how good he was at it by the end. I'm looking forward to the last programme on his time with the desert fathers. There is a book by William Dalrymple called 'From the holy mountain' which has a lot about these desert monks. I do recommend it if anyone's interested.

xxx

Hi Sunanda,

Yes, I watched it, having exactly the same thoughts - if he was alone, who was doing the filming? :p

I enjoyed the bit in the cave, with the sincerity of the villagers and how moved he was by their simple trust and their unconditional generosity. That was very beautiful. POJ obviously felt at One there.

However, I could not relate the Kumbh Mela scenes at the beginning to my concept of spirituality! One of the first questions he asked (he of course was oblivious to the answer) about how could he find his true self-hood - I think the master said something like "Tell him to give me R100 first" Oh dear.

Then, much of it seemed more like mass hypnotism (there was practically a stampede) to me than deep spirituality, plus of course, the effect of mind-altering chemicals! 😮 And what on earth has constantly holding your arm about your head and having your fingers turn black and shrivel got to do with being one with divine Love, God? To my understanding, if you were forced to do that, (or born like that) then, by a deep sense of the impotence of matter and the omnipotence of Spirit, of your eternal wholeness and completeness, you could be untouched and not suffer (or healed in the latter case)

What flashed through my mind as I saw that withered arm and those blackened twisted fingers was one of Jesus' healings which I feel has an important lesson for all religions:

And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. (Mark 3)

There were these self-righteous religious bigots in the synagogue (supposedly the house of God) and rather than being able to heal and relieve suffering as previous Hebrew prophets had, all they were concerned about was that Jesus was breaking the law of working on the Sabbath day!

I'm sure you can see why I can't get my head around why someone would deliberately maim himself like that! However, the necessity of suffering as a path to God is a deeply-held belief in many religions, so who am I to questions it? (It certainly is necessary when it is the path to destroying sin though.)

Very interested to hear Peter Owen Jones' conclusions at the end and see where he finds himself, spiritually and religiously!

Love and peace,

Judy

Back in an hour. Going to watch it. 😀

Principled - My sentiments exactly - I did find it compelling viewing though - but all that 'hash' - it disturbed me.

I'm looking forward to watching next week.

Just noticed this. Not impressed. Shouldn't need chemicals to achieve enlightenment. How is it different to binge drinking, otherwise? Hundreds of thousands of young adults all wrecked on Saturday night, all happy, not a care in the world. That's enlightenment, right?

Ha - yes, it doesn't come across as the most spiritual gathering on the planet, does it? I have to say that one of the reasons I was amused during the programme was the subtitles, such as the one about 'tell him to put 100 rupees here'. Many, many of these sadhus are utterly incorrigible rogues - which is not to say they're actually malicious (though some are.) However, there are diamonds too....and Jagdish, who sent POJ off on his mountain quest, unquestionably 'did' something when he laid his hands on POJ's head. Many of these holy men really are holy and have siddhis - powers - though these are often misused. I do agree that holding your arm in the air until it withers is not a practice that I'd like to see universally adopted. But nor would I condemn the one who did it - each to his/her own.
DFTP, I would like to play the pedant about your choice of the word 'chemical' in relation to what the sadhus smoke. Chemical it isn't, just dried plant stuff. Many religions have used psychotropic drugs to get closer to union with the divine. Altered states, such as drum or dance induced trances, are common too. Thus, at a gathering like the Kumbh Mela, I'm sure a kind of mass hypnosis occurs. As I've said, I've not been to one but I would love to go.
Yes, the villagers were sweet in their responses to the new holy man. But when the head man took his daughter to seek POJ's 'blessings', he was actually looking for a cash donation too. I was surprised BTW that no one explained to POJ just how very offensive it would have been to everyone that he constantly used his left hand to accept/make offerings. Right hand clean, left hand used for other things!

xxx

Yes, sorry, you're right. I was using it in the generic sense of narcotics. When it comes down to it, even alcohol and heroin is just plant stuff.

I have no issue with people using other methods to achieve a higher state, though.

Hi ya

I saw the first Extreme Pilgrim and really enjoyed it. The secong programme was awful. So boring that I kept falling asleep. I mentioned this to one of my Tai Chi students this evening, and she said the same.

I look forward to the 3rd one.

Best Wishes

Reiki Pixie

Yes, everyone, the third episode (Christian monks in the desert) is on tonight in one hour's time.

xxx

Hi ya

I saw the first Extreme Pilgrim and really enjoyed it. The secong programme was awful. So boring that I kept falling asleep. I mentioned this to one of my Tai Chi students this evening, and she said the same.

I look forward to the 3rd one.

Best Wishes

Reiki Pixie

What did you find boring about the second programme, reiki pixie?

x

Well, how's that for (bad?) timing. I see this thread at 11 pm on the night of the last one, and didn't see any episodes! I vaguely recall seeing it was on, but left it alone as TV is usually so poor at these things. Hm, so I guess if I wanted to, I can just see the last one online?

Quick comments on a couple of Judy's posts, from one (me) who didn't see the episodes. The hatha yoga ideas taken to extreme such as spending your life with an arm up in the air - and there's a whole variety of such practices - are IMHO complete hogwash spiritually-speaking. I'd like to come across as 'more understanding', but IMO I agree with Judy: it's a 100 percent misconception about what Life (capitol 'L' as I'm not going to go the route of "everyone's life is different" in this instance) is about. True Masters of the East are pretty frustrated (for want of a better word), but can manage a laugh, at the idea that this demonstrates any advancement for a person. (What does it do for others, too?)

On the other hand, I wouldn't be so harsh on any who live in a monastic environment and also do no visible good for the community. It's not a path (not helping others at all) that I'd choose, but there's room for those individuals to progress (not sure if many really do though), and maybe it's the environment some need in this incarnation for that? Also, if they spiritually progress, they can reincarnate in better shape to bring peace to others. There's also the concept, which I'd certainly go with and agree with, that meditation or any spiritually dedicated life benefits those in the environment around, perhaps for a very long way - perhaps without a limitation of distance at all.

So. Must set time aside for the last episode?

V

Hi V - so you've missed this one too! I have to say folks, I could live in that monastery in the desert - wow! Those gardens! That beauty! But then, they probably don't allow women! Shucks. 🙁

Mmmm

I enjoyed the Bedouin hugely, I loved Father Lazarus, (wicked sense of humour!) even if I don't agree with his theology (I was with Peter Owen Jones there)

Did POJ find his enlightenment? I think he glimpsed it, in the second monastery up in the mountains in China, in the cave in India and in the latter stages of the cave in Egypt, but strangely enough, tonight I was looking through some poems for a friend (totally unconnected with this thread) and I came across this poem and to me, it says it all. In fact, Peter even mentioned "in my Father's house are many mansions" and he had come to the conclusion that they are all different and just because one suits one person, it doesn't mean they all have to be the same. That I thought was a profound insight - and I feel the same about monasteries - as I said in an earlier post, I can see the great spiritual benefit for yourself, but that sort of life would not be for me and I couldn't help comparing the monks, sadhus and priests with the sisters at Mother Theresa's orphanage that I've had first hand experience with. I think the one thing that most put me off the monastery up in the mountains of China (and it was wonderful - such serenity, such peace, such discipline etc) were the crates of Evian water being carried up those steep steep steps. I know it's stupid, but even 3 weeks on, I can't get that sight out of my head - well, perhaps they were for the BBC crew - I'd feel better if they were.

Love and peace,

Judy

- and here's this poem which I feel sums up what POJ has and will find:

Home

Home is the consciousness of good
That holds us in its wide embrace;
The steady light that comforts us
In every path our footsteps trace.

Our Father's house has many rooms,
And each with peace and love imbued;
No child can ever stray beyond
The compass of infinitude.

Home is the Father's sweet "Well done,"
God's daily, hourly gift of grace.
We go to meet our brother's need,
And find our home in every place.

Rosemary Cobham

Hi ya

Saw the 3rd episode, and thought it was very profound.

Sunanda: I can't remember why I thought the 2nd episode was boring, I just put me to sleep.

Principled: There was Nestle bottle of water in the Egyptian cave as well. prehaps we can never get away from the modern world!

Cheers

Reiki Pixie