This thread has been prompted by Crabapple’s anguish over suffering and how unfair life is, on “The three gifts of the wise men” thread. Oakapple asked what gifts we’d all give Jesus and she replied:
I would give him;
A hug for dying for us on the cross,
A kiss for saving all those afflicted people
And a slap for those he forgotCrabapple xx
__________________
Learn to blossom where you are planted
She continued on her next post:
Sad as it may be, Principled, but often it is how I feel. There are times when I feel that some have been forgotten and it is not their doing!
As a teacher I have come across some things that make me think twice about the fairness of it all, a young lad of 13 who witnessed his Father hanging himself, having just lost his Mother to cancer and then being left to the mercies of his abusive step Mother.
Kids negelcted because their parent(s) are alcoholics, a girl showing me her burns, inflicted by a Grandmother, who was looking after her when her own Mum rejected her. These are almost daily events in one school, sometimes it tests the best of any faiths……….
Maybe a slap is rather sad, just the question...why...would do!
There was a long answer from me, but also this from Venetian
The question of "why" is a deep one. Some of us, to quote a friend of mine, landed here on earth in this life "with a bump". Most of us can attest that it isn't always easy. Nevertheless it's all about free will, our individual human free will. I do know that when people in this and that place around the world are in pain and trouble, this may seem just to be words. Nevertheless, at the core of it all, any problems within human lives are at root caused by the misuse of free will.
Obviously in the case of those born into problems, we have to consider past lives……Problems (karma) are not unfair and are not punishment, but are carefully chosen lessons people need to learn from. And God or Jesus are not to blame: God gave us the gift of free will, and now it's up to us how to use that gift. Obviously there have been some mistakes by us along the way, and the loving gift of karma which teaches us eventually returns, albeit it can be a desperate time as it happens.
This discussion on suffering led away from the original topic of the wise men’s gifts and the thread has now gone in another direction, which is why I decided to give it its own thread, especially because while looking up the words “gold, frankincense, and myrrh” on , I came across this Christmas article that, to me, provides some answers to this age-old question that countless theologians and philosophers through the ages have struggled with.
Christmas—its promise and fulfilment
I know that most people don’t bother to read the articles when I post just links, so today I’ll copy the wonderful healing which is a small part of it (all is well worth reading)
The author, James Spencer, writes:
Some years ago, I was serving as a chaplain in the US Army. A high-ranking officer asked if I’d come by to see him and his wife. When I arrived at their home, they took me to see their twin sons, who were a little over a year old. One was toddling around the room. The other couldn’t walk. He was hunched over. His back was bent, and he couldn’t lift his head from his shoulder.
The birth of the child had been very difficult, and the family had been told that instruments used during the birth had caused the defect. The Army doctors had said the child would probably never walk, and that he’d always be stooped over.
OK, what’s going on here? Was this fair? No! Why should an innocent child have to suffer? What had this baby done to deserve being disabled for the rest of his life?
Many religions would give the answer that this was simply God’s will and that suffering is given to us to turn us to God and to strengthen our faith. There is nothing we can do about it and we simply have to accept it.
Then, there is the very strong belief in the consciousness of mankind in original sin, which comes from a literal belief of the allegory of Adam and Eve (I wrote a whole thread about that, which now sadly is incomplete, due to the changeover of the web site) Basically, this heavy theological belief traces back all human suffering to the disobedience of Adam and Eve and our eternal punishment as a result. And to a certain degree, we are all unconsciously influenced by it. If you scoff at that (which you should!) just think of how many women talk about having their monthly “curse” without realising where that idea comes from.
Then there is the view that Venetian put above, that this has come about through Karma and that this baby is the return to earth of some individual who has sinned. As V wrote: “Obviously there have been some mistakes by us along the way, and the loving gift of karma which teaches us eventually returns, albeit it can be a desperate time as it happens.”
What we believe in, we bring into our experience.
OK, so what is the Christian Science view? Not one of the above! If God sends suffering, why on earth was Jesus sent to show us the way out of it? It's not logical.
Mary Baker Eddy wrote:
The lawgiver, whose lightning palsies or prostrates in death the child at prayer, is not the divine ideal of omnipresent Love. God is natural good, and is represented only by the idea of goodness; while evil should be regarded as unnatural, because it is opposed to the nature of Spirit, God. (Science and Health p 119)
Let's return to the article and to the baby born disabled:
The parents asked me if I would pray for the child, which I said I would be happy to do.
It became clear to me that I needed to lift my thought above the false concept of the child as a biological mortal locked into a straitjacket of physical limitations. I prayed to see—that is, to understand—the child’s preexistence, or his forever coexistence, with his Father-Mother God, his true source.
That perfect preexistence was the Christmas message Jesus prayed in the closing hours of his ministry, when he referred to his own true selfhood: “Now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” That glory showed the radiant reality of true being as never encased in matter.
When I saw more clearly that this child was not the offspring of flesh, but of Spirit, I knew he couldn’t be held by material laws of accident. It wasn’t muscles and nerves that supported him, but divine Mind that supported its own perfect expression.
The Christmas message of spiritual creation again brought with it the outward effect of “on earth peace, good will toward men.”—in this case, healing. In two weeks, the child was well. His back was straight, his head was up, and he was learning to walk. The last I heard of him, he was six feet four and only stooped to get through a doorway!
Christmas—its promise and fulfilment
As I said on the three wise men thread, Mary Baker Eddy who discovered the spiritual principle behind Jesus’ healings and great works, described herself as “..a heart wholly in protest and unutterable in love.” She worked and prayed for the alleviation of suffering and the freedom of mankind of the tyranny of all material beliefs of lack, limitation, hatred, disease, disability. She wrote:
Citizens of the world, accept the "glorious liberty of the children of God," and be free! This is your divine right. The illusion of material sense, not divine law, has bound you, entangled your free limbs, crippled your capacities, enfeebled your body, and defaced the tablet of your being. (Science and Health p 227)
Suffering, sinning, dying beliefs are unreal. When divine Science is universally understood, they will have no power over man, for man is immortal and lives by divine authority. (p 76)
There is so much more to be discussed here, but not today!
Love and peace,
Judy
What I'm trying to say, is that God did not make suffering - mortal limited fearful beliefs, cause suffering and Jesus showed us the way out of it, but his core teaching was largely ignored.
Hi Judy.
I would like to agree with you but my answer was based on the belief that if God created all human life as we know it, then within that creation was free will. It could then follow that by allowing us to lead our life as we wished and to receive or cause suffering then it could be said that the gift of free will was in retrospect flawed. Or was it just that God understood that there was a need for us to experience all emotions in life. It does not surprise me that the core teaching of Jesus was ignored, as the way of life with respect to sex, partying, money and greed was being enjoyed by many, (what has changed?)
Hi Judy.
I would like to agree with you but my answer was based on the belief that if God created all human life as we know it, then within that creation was free will. It could then follow that by allowing us to lead our life as we wished and to receive or cause suffering then it could be said that the gift of free will was in retrospect flawed.
Hello again! I think I've just given a full answer to Venetian above, but just this one point: Is God flawed or is it our human concept of God that is flawed?
Love and peace,
Judy
In reply to the title of the post..
Good question but I guess I would have to say that depends on which God or Goddess you are talking about specifically...
I am amused that we are concieted enough to think that any omnipotent being would have the time or inclination to waste it on us by making us suffer.
Humans are so imaginative when it comes to creating suffering for ourselves and inflicting it on others why would an omnipotent being want to put their two pennies worth in?
I think that is they did look in on us it would be morbid fascination a bit like car crash TV and they would be nudging other omnipotent beings and saying look at these can you believe what they do to each other?!!
Also I think that we are lucky that some wandering omnipotent being has not flitted past our planet, noticed us and decided what a mess lets wipe the slate clean and start again!! :p
Hello again! I think I've just given a full answer to Venetian above, but just this one point: Is God flawed or is it our human concept of God that is flawed?
Love and peace,
Judy
If something that is created is flawed then whoever created it caused the flaw. That is why I believe that we were created as we are “wart’s an all”.
I am amused that we are concieted enough to think that any omnipotent being would have the time or inclination to waste it on us by making us suffer.
When we become Enlightened beings and have asscended and become omnipotent beings, then we will trully know the answers.
Also I think that we are lucky that some wandering omnipotent being has not flitted past our planet, noticed us and decided what a mess lets wipe the slate clean and start again!!
Watch this space I will return:FIFangel: But I will bathe the planet with love and all of this will be but a dream.
Watch this space I will return:FIFangel: But I will bathe the planet with love and all of this will be but a dream.
Well I hope you return before me cause I am going to rain down some holy ass kicking and there will be much wailing and lamenting between bouts of fire and brimstone raining down... Mwahahahahahahaaaaaa!!
Then I am going to create paradise on earth so that the mortals appreciate it and I will make sure they do by dropping the odd calamity into the picture to remind them 😉 of what things could be like again if they don't cheer up and enjoy what they have!! :p
All IMHO of course:
So Venetian, the nature of God includes the potential to make mistakes?
No. Giving us free will isn't a mistake. It's how the One or God grows (yes, God grows too) in the form of us. You can't grow without having free will.
So has God has given us free will to choose for ourselves whether we want to obey him or not?
Does that require a reply other than, "Look around"??:eek:
That’s certainly what Orthodox Christianity believes. In other words, if we’re to blame for our own sins [karma - V], then God can’t be held responsible and the concept of a good God is left intact.
I'm an Orthodox Christian, then! 🙂
However, doesn’t this also raise as many questions as it might try to answer? Why on earth would a good creator want to create a vulnerable person in the first place
It's all there and explained in the concept of karma and reincarnation. Read up on it in some depth? There's nothing vulnerable about being empowered with free will. Individualisations of the One God (us) is IMHO the very purpose of Creation. Take away free will and we'd just be wind-up clockwork toys. In fact, there's another word for free will which perhaps explains it better. Free will = Consciousness. Consciousness by nature = free will. So what'd be the point of a Creation if we were not conscious beings? :confused: So long as we are conscious beings we can make mistakes, then learn from them, and end up all the better for it.
This doesn't mean, BTW, that we were created to make mistakes. That we made mistakes in the distant past to begin with is a rarity in the universe, in my tradition. What's happened on this world is rare. Usually free will can be pretty-well always used correctly.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, there is also the belief that suffering is god’s gracious means for making us return to him and then, through repentance we will find the way.
Well, I don't agree that God gives us suffering or wants us to have it. That was/is our choice.
Gotta keep this short (for me) right now. 🙂
V
Well I hope you return before me cause I am going to rain down some holy ass kicking and there will be much wailing and lamenting between bouts of fire and brimstone raining down... Mwahahahahahahaaaaaa!!
Then I am going to create paradise on earth so that the mortals appreciate it and I will make sure they do by dropping the odd calamity into the picture to remind them 😉 of what things could be like again if they don't cheer up and enjoy what they have!! :p
Ready-Steady-Go!!!!!!!!!!:dogrun::offtopic:
I keep coming across this delightful article, which, to me, is more proof that God does not send suffering.
This dear lady not only had a terminal brain tumour, but also diagnosed depression, on top of which she was going through a divorce and she and her little sons were homeless and penniless:
My journey from terminal to joyful and healthy
All those years in Sunday School had taught me my Bible pretty well. I remembered that in the Old Testament there was all this talk about smiting—the Israelites smiting so and so, and being smitten by so and so. But now, I knew, God wasn’t “up there” with a big “smite button,” and He would never say that today was my day to be the one who gets the smiting! It sounded so crazy that I laughed out loud. At that moment I knew that there was an answer for me—and that it would be a spiritual answer.
Love and peace,
Judy
Hi Judy........
It still amazes me...How, by just saying a little prayer, can make me feel sooo much better in myself.
I always find the time to pray in the mornings, but to be totally honest....I find myself dancing, singing and praying.....All at the same time. You see, to me, praying is a joyful occasion.
The story of Suzy, and her miracle doesn't suprise me one bit....Prayer is probably the most powerful possession we have.
To me, Suffering I see as lessons to learn from. If we are suffering, and can still manage to remain happy and tolerant....then we have learnt restraint, patience...etc. When that pain or suffering has subsided, it always makes me feel better that I have not inflicted my pain and suffering.....onto others.
Hi Judy........
It still amazes me...How, by just saying a little prayer, can make me feel sooo much better in myself.
I always find the time to pray in the mornings, but to be totally honest....I find myself dancing, singing and praying.....All at the same time. You see, to me, praying is a joyful occasion.
That's really beautiful Oakapple - thanks. And absolutely, connecting with who we ARE does not have to be solemn; gratitude, joy, singing, dancing can all be forms of worship and prayer. :dance:
To me, Suffering I see as lessons to learn from. If we are suffering, and can still manage to remain happy and tolerant....then we have learnt restraint, patience...etc. When that pain or suffering has subsided, it always makes me feel better that I have not inflicted my pain and suffering.....onto others.
I am always grateful for any challenges that I have gone through as they have always forced me to get closer to God and to learn more about who God is and who I am as HisHer image and likeness. Trials should always bring spiritual growth.
I have always found these words of Mary Baker Eddy's comforting and encouraging when times are tough:
Trials are proofs of God's care. Spiritual development germinates not from seed sown in the soil of material hopes, but when these decay, Love propagates anew the higher joys of Spirit, which have no taint of earth. Each successive stage of experience unfolds new views of divine goodness and love. (Science and Health p 66)
The very circumstance, which your suffering sense deems wrathful and afflictive, Love can make an angel entertained unawares. (S&H 574)
Remember, thou canst be brought into no condition, be it ever so severe, where Love has not been before thee and where its tender lesson is not awaiting thee. Therefore despair not nor murmur, for that which seeketh to save, to heal, and to deliver, will guide thee, if thou seekest this guidance. (Miscellaneous Writings p 149)
Love and peace,
Judy
Just want to add in contect to the title of this post, please read
The Shack by William p. Young. (I posted about it on the book forum)
It will make you think differently.
Angel x