This thread has been prompted by Crabapple’s anguish over suffering and how unfair life is, on “The three gifts of the wise men” thread. Oakapple asked what gifts we’d all give Jesus and she replied:
I would give him;
A hug for dying for us on the cross,
A kiss for saving all those afflicted people
And a slap for those he forgotCrabapple xx
__________________
Learn to blossom where you are planted
She continued on her next post:
Sad as it may be, Principled, but often it is how I feel. There are times when I feel that some have been forgotten and it is not their doing!
As a teacher I have come across some things that make me think twice about the fairness of it all, a young lad of 13 who witnessed his Father hanging himself, having just lost his Mother to cancer and then being left to the mercies of his abusive step Mother.
Kids negelcted because their parent(s) are alcoholics, a girl showing me her burns, inflicted by a Grandmother, who was looking after her when her own Mum rejected her. These are almost daily events in one school, sometimes it tests the best of any faiths……….
Maybe a slap is rather sad, just the question...why...would do!
There was a long answer from me, but also this from Venetian
The question of "why" is a deep one. Some of us, to quote a friend of mine, landed here on earth in this life "with a bump". Most of us can attest that it isn't always easy. Nevertheless it's all about free will, our individual human free will. I do know that when people in this and that place around the world are in pain and trouble, this may seem just to be words. Nevertheless, at the core of it all, any problems within human lives are at root caused by the misuse of free will.
Obviously in the case of those born into problems, we have to consider past lives……Problems (karma) are not unfair and are not punishment, but are carefully chosen lessons people need to learn from. And God or Jesus are not to blame: God gave us the gift of free will, and now it's up to us how to use that gift. Obviously there have been some mistakes by us along the way, and the loving gift of karma which teaches us eventually returns, albeit it can be a desperate time as it happens.
This discussion on suffering led away from the original topic of the wise men’s gifts and the thread has now gone in another direction, which is why I decided to give it its own thread, especially because while looking up the words “gold, frankincense, and myrrh” on , I came across this Christmas article that, to me, provides some answers to this age-old question that countless theologians and philosophers through the ages have struggled with.
Christmas—its promise and fulfilment
I know that most people don’t bother to read the articles when I post just links, so today I’ll copy the wonderful healing which is a small part of it (all is well worth reading)
The author, James Spencer, writes:
Some years ago, I was serving as a chaplain in the US Army. A high-ranking officer asked if I’d come by to see him and his wife. When I arrived at their home, they took me to see their twin sons, who were a little over a year old. One was toddling around the room. The other couldn’t walk. He was hunched over. His back was bent, and he couldn’t lift his head from his shoulder.
The birth of the child had been very difficult, and the family had been told that instruments used during the birth had caused the defect. The Army doctors had said the child would probably never walk, and that he’d always be stooped over.
OK, what’s going on here? Was this fair? No! Why should an innocent child have to suffer? What had this baby done to deserve being disabled for the rest of his life?
Many religions would give the answer that this was simply God’s will and that suffering is given to us to turn us to God and to strengthen our faith. There is nothing we can do about it and we simply have to accept it.
Then, there is the very strong belief in the consciousness of mankind in original sin, which comes from a literal belief of the allegory of Adam and Eve (I wrote a whole thread about that, which now sadly is incomplete, due to the changeover of the web site) Basically, this heavy theological belief traces back all human suffering to the disobedience of Adam and Eve and our eternal punishment as a result. And to a certain degree, we are all unconsciously influenced by it. If you scoff at that (which you should!) just think of how many women talk about having their monthly “curse” without realising where that idea comes from.
Then there is the view that Venetian put above, that this has come about through Karma and that this baby is the return to earth of some individual who has sinned. As V wrote: “Obviously there have been some mistakes by us along the way, and the loving gift of karma which teaches us eventually returns, albeit it can be a desperate time as it happens.”
What we believe in, we bring into our experience.
OK, so what is the Christian Science view? Not one of the above! If God sends suffering, why on earth was Jesus sent to show us the way out of it? It's not logical.
Mary Baker Eddy wrote:
The lawgiver, whose lightning palsies or prostrates in death the child at prayer, is not the divine ideal of omnipresent Love. God is natural good, and is represented only by the idea of goodness; while evil should be regarded as unnatural, because it is opposed to the nature of Spirit, God. (Science and Health p 119)
Let's return to the article and to the baby born disabled:
The parents asked me if I would pray for the child, which I said I would be happy to do.
It became clear to me that I needed to lift my thought above the false concept of the child as a biological mortal locked into a straitjacket of physical limitations. I prayed to see—that is, to understand—the child’s preexistence, or his forever coexistence, with his Father-Mother God, his true source.
That perfect preexistence was the Christmas message Jesus prayed in the closing hours of his ministry, when he referred to his own true selfhood: “Now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” That glory showed the radiant reality of true being as never encased in matter.
When I saw more clearly that this child was not the offspring of flesh, but of Spirit, I knew he couldn’t be held by material laws of accident. It wasn’t muscles and nerves that supported him, but divine Mind that supported its own perfect expression.
The Christmas message of spiritual creation again brought with it the outward effect of “on earth peace, good will toward men.”—in this case, healing. In two weeks, the child was well. His back was straight, his head was up, and he was learning to walk. The last I heard of him, he was six feet four and only stooped to get through a doorway!
Christmas—its promise and fulfilment
As I said on the three wise men thread, Mary Baker Eddy who discovered the spiritual principle behind Jesus’ healings and great works, described herself as “..a heart wholly in protest and unutterable in love.” She worked and prayed for the alleviation of suffering and the freedom of mankind of the tyranny of all material beliefs of lack, limitation, hatred, disease, disability. She wrote:
Citizens of the world, accept the "glorious liberty of the children of God," and be free! This is your divine right. The illusion of material sense, not divine law, has bound you, entangled your free limbs, crippled your capacities, enfeebled your body, and defaced the tablet of your being. (Science and Health p 227)
Suffering, sinning, dying beliefs are unreal. When divine Science is universally understood, they will have no power over man, for man is immortal and lives by divine authority. (p 76)
There is so much more to be discussed here, but not today!
Love and peace,
Judy
Hi Judy,
Then there is the view that Venetian put above, that this has come about through Karma and that this baby is the return to earth of some individual who has sinned. As V wrote: “Obviously there have been some mistakes by us along the way, and the loving gift of karma which teaches us eventually returns, albeit it can be a desperate time as it happens.”
What we believe in, we bring into our experience.
I must stop you right there, Judy. As that pat-phrase is tosh, right?
I believe in gravity, but it wouldn't disappear from existence if I changed my mind. I believe in my relatives and friends, but they don't exist simply as some fantasy I hold. In other words, it's a silly pat-phrase, sorry 🙂 , "What we believe in, we bring into our experience". Clearly we believe in many things as they are objectively (so far as this world is concerned) quite real. I believe also in reincarnation. And you believe in the accuracy of Mary Baker Eddy.
Along with literally billions of people in this world, I live in the belief - and the ongoing experience of its reality - of the two-sided coin (you can't have one without the other) of karma and reincarnation.
OK, so what is the Christian Science view? Not one of the above!
If that's so, Mary Baker Eddy simply got it wrong, or only had a limited glimpse into the whole truth. (If she didn't go into karma and reincarnation.) Is that so hard to accept? Or are we on a trip here of "I know the absolute truth, and I know I am right, others are not"?
Sorry, but that's how it comes across. That MBE is the one source not to be questioned. Well, why not? Given how many views and sources there are on HP, I think we all have to understand that we all may be incorrect in some belief-systems we hold, or in elements of them. I'd question her accuracy for a start, if she as you imply didn't go into karma as a cause of birthed defects. 🙂 If all our ailments are caused by our own thoughts in this life, how do we account for birthed defects?
I prayed to see—that is, to understand—the child’s preexistence, or his forever coexistence, with his Father-Mother God, his true source.
Pre-existence. Hm. Interesting. But never encased in matter before, as the one person's opinion continues. Who says so?
Citizens of the world, accept the "glorious liberty of the children of God," and be free! This is your divine right. The illusion of material sense, not divine law, has bound you, entangled your free limbs, crippled your capacities, enfeebled your body, and defaced the tablet of your being. (Science and Health p 227)
Yep. And none of that annulls the existence, or possible reality, of karma and reincarnation. What happens to ill people who are also full of hatred and intense character flaws, when they die? Is that it? M.B. Eddy, along with a number of other people in her day, had insight into the power of the mind, and the relative unreality of matter. There's simply nothing there to say that karma and reincarnation aren't real Laws by which the universe turns. IMHO quite the opposite - her teachings are only logical given that something causes people to be born defective, and to then explain what happens when they die very defective, such as the criminally-minded or warmongers.
So it looks to me as if she had some good, but limited, insight. Of course, karma and reincarnation would have been omitted or else it couldn't have been 'Christian' science, I suppose? :rolleyes:
I also do like science and scientific evidence. The fact is that there's a simply huge amount of evidence for reincarnation, approaching the subject from many different angles. Literally thousands of cases have been documented in detail of people recalling past lives without any explanation of how they could have known about those lives, which turn out to have actually happened. Moreover, the lives usually do inter-knit i.e. circumstances in the present life appear to be the result of happenings and choices in the previous life that's recalled - in all nations and cultures in the world.
Time for a rethink.
V
Oh what a can of worms we have here!
I think it is really simple, the goodness, faith, religion, whatever you want to call it comes from within the individual.....I don't necessarily consider myself as spiritual...I just do what I consider to be right. For instance...I can never bring myself to lie, I just can't do it...this comes from within me, through my own values.
I try to be a good person, not because I want to go to heaven...have good Karma, or want to go to a 'better' place, I do it because I want to and if I can instill these values into any of the many pupils that I teach, then time on earth has been worthwhile!
I believe in a higher existence, just don't quite know what it is.....to me it doesn't have to have a name, just knowing is enough.
To me it is that simple.
Love
Crabapple xx
Each individual has a very personal opinion on religion, and each path is so different.......but,I think we all want a better World...with greater understanding and love. We all strive for peace throughout the World, and a place where people treat each other with mutual respect.
The Spirit...The Divine......doesn't need a name. It's enough, just to know of it's existence within this realm.
In my Opinion,If we don't ask questions......we don't need answers,but who could ask for better spiritual advisers...if they are needed? than right here on hp
Judy....your knowledge of MBE......is amasing....great stuff.
V.......Om shanti shanti shanti
Crabbie.....what a wonderful teacher you are....
Thank you all
What we believe in, we bring into our experience.
Venetian, perhaps this could be understood as 'what we believe, we bring into existence'.
Like you I accept reincarnation as a fact, and that we are bound by the laws of karma, but I also believe in miracles.
Jesus healed many people that were suffering, obviously overruling anything that had gone before. He also told his followers that they could do the same.
This might be a clumsy definition, forgive me, but perhaps karma can be understood as a cage that confines us in various ways, be it physically, intellectually, spiritually etc. On one level we have confined ourselves because we need the experience of our particular limitation in order to grow. The truth is we always have the key to our cage, and everyone else's, and the key is Love.
I think healing and growth are brought about by our interaction with each other, and with the Divine, in whatever form we recognise It.
Crabapple and Oakapple,
Bless you both for your lovely gentle posts. Yes, HP is a wonderful place to learn from others and I'm so grateful to all of you, especially Venetian, for giving me new perspectives. I don’t know I have that much knowledge Oakapple – I have a computer concordance to the Bible and all Mary Baker Eddy’s writings and so that makes it easy to find things! 😉
Dear dear Venetian,
I apologise for having made you so angry. :1kis:
Please don’t take everything so personally. This thread is about suffering and I was simply presenting three worldviews as to its cause, then the Christian Science one. We always begin our prayer from the standpoint of absolute perfection. Perfect God, perfect man. God, good, being the ONLY cause.
I’m not getting into an argument about reincarnation as I know nothing about it and will wait and see! It is no part of Christianity and Eddy never mentioned it, she only spoke of our pre-existence, our co-existence and our infinite progression.
Jesus said we must be born again in order to see the kingdom of heaven (which as you know so well V, is the reign of harmony, which is within us.)
When questioned by Nicodemus as to how a man could return to his mother’s womb in order to be born again, Jesus explained that he meant being born in water and Spirit. (I understand the use of water to mean purification, rather than the physical ritual of baptism.) So Jesus was saying that we need to purify, to spiritualise our thinking. He didn’t say you have to die and then come back (being physically born again) and do it all over again in order to progress.
I love this passage about progression from Mary Baker Eddy:
Infinite progression is concrete being, which finite mortals see and comprehend only as abstract glory. As mortal mind, or the material sense of life, is put off, the spiritual sense and Science of being is brought to light. (Miscellaneous Writings p 82)
So, how do we progress? On the human level:
The new birth is not the work of a moment. It begins with moments, and goes on with years; moments of surrender to God, of childlike trust and joyful adoption of good; moments of self-abnegation, self-consecration, heaven-born hope, and spiritual love.
Time may commence, but it cannot complete, the new birth: eternity does this; for progress is the law of infinity. (Miscellaneous Writings p 15)
But from the perspective of pure metaphysics:
Jesus required neither cycles of time nor thought in order to mature fitness for perfection and its possibilities. (Unity of Good p 11)
As for bringing what we believe into our experience – well, I’ve experienced that countless times when I’ve been caught off-guard, like when I caught Michael Palin’s flu over the television 😀 but thankfully as soon as I realised how ridiculous it was, the aggressive symptoms just vanished. I’ve known people who have a strong belief in fate – one woman I knew believed that bad luck followed her around and it most certainly did, but had she been willing to understand that there is only one real power, God, good, it would no longer affect her.
It’s a medical fact that people who have multiple personalities can have one disease, say diabetes, as one person and say asthma in another. Also, some have to have several sets of glasses as they may be long-sighted in one character, while short-sighted in another. Does this not speak volumes about how the body is governed by thought?
Sadly, because Christian Science so goes against the current of human thought, it often incurs people’s wrath – family, friends, turn against you and if it couldn’t be proved, if it didn’t work, believe me, I wouldn’t stick with it! I often have to remind myself of what the OT prophets went through, then Jesus, his disciples, the early Christians and much later, Mary Baker Eddy and a rant from Venetian is a very small cross to bear in comparison!
Year ago, after having written about my instantaneous healing of medically diagnosed dysentery on HP; the next post was a similarly angry one. The writer informed me that it was physiologically impossible for the body to behave the way I alleged mine had. (I had gone after several days of illness, from extreme weakness with even a glass of water passing straight through me, to turning completely to God and grasping a truth in Science and Health, to a rumbling in my stomach and then rising up completely healed, going for a long walk, just rejoicing and then going into a restaurant and eating an enormous meal, with no side effects.)
A year or so later he wrote to me and said that he had been ill at the time and what I had written had enraged him, but it challenged his thought. It challenged him to think about his body and life from a different perspective and now he was having similar experiences in his own life and he wanted to thank me.
I get many emails from people who say that what I have written has helped change their life for the better, helped them to find healing. Just recently, a young woman, brought up a Catholic and now a medical student, totally motivated by a love of animals and mankind and wanting to help alleviate suffering, was given Science and Health by someone who had found cs through HP. She had a conflict with the idea that matter is not the solid reality it appears to be and also a tough time shedding her instinctive abhorrence of the punishing male diety taught to her as a child and learning to trust God as absolute, impartial Love.
I had no idea that she had suffered for 6 years from constant nausea, anxiety and panic attacks, but one night recently, she prayed sincerely for understanding and she then realised at a deep level that she was not her material body, that she was completely spiritual, whole and perfect, here and now. Suddenly she felt all the anguish just lift off her. She had her first full night’s sleep in years and the next morning was able to eat anything. For years, her symptoms had been masked through drugs, but she found complete freedom and dominion when she glimpsed something of the present perfection of her identity as a child of God.
She wrote: “..you have become like a little candle that i can use in my darkness to help me find the light switch.”
So I make no apologies for writing my truth from the heart on HP.
Love and peace,
Judy
Hi Barafundle - I was writing while you replied.
Lovely post! When we go through challenges, it often is a purification which helps us to grow and progress. To me, it's the cross that leads to the crown of understanding!
Love and peace,
Judy
Hi Barafundle,
This may appear to be nit-picking, but I'd just slightly see or word things differently. Re:
Like you I accept reincarnation as a fact, and that we are bound by the laws of karma, but I also believe in miracles.
You probably agree in fact that they're not really miracles, but the use of natural Law to an extent most people so far have still forgotten.
Jesus healed many people that were suffering, obviously overruling anything that had gone before.
You know what? I think there have been many, many people as attuned as Jesus, including before his time, who were able to perform such acts of healing and 'miracles'. There certainly have been afterwards.
Hi Judy,
If my post came across as 'angry', to quote you, sorry about that! 😮 I was actually trying to put emphasis. It seemed to me, as I said, that you were simply dismissing karma and reincarnation, only on the basis they're not mentioned within the writing of one person, MBE. I find it useful to cast my net broadly, and "K & R" are not easily dismissed.
You write of reincarnation (which goes along with karma), "It is no part of Christianity". How sad that you believe that! Somewhere, probably in the attic (!), I've several books about reincarnation in relation to Christianity. For four hundred years Christians did believe in reincarnation. As you know, as soon as Christianity became institutionalised, by force and the threat of death implied upon heretics, in the fifth century by Constantine, many prior Christian beliefs were overturned. Major church fathers such as Clement and Origen wrote of reincarnation, and accepted it - apparently as they had access to writings and sayings of the original disciples who knew Jesus.
Reincarnation isn't the thread topic, but I may just point out that there are enough references to what seems to be karma (from before birth in this life) by Jesus and others to open up to us the fact that people in those days accepted these things as facts of life.
When seeing a blind man, blind from birth, the disciples asked Jesus, "Master, who did sin, his parents or himself, that he was born blind?" On that particular occasion, Jesus actually gave another, third answer - but as I've read commentators write, "The fact that they so casually could talk to Jesus of karma created before that birth strongly suggests that the disciples all knew of karma and reincarnation, and accepted it, knowing they could talk to Jesus about these things as well".
Jesus, in the Bible itself, does refer to at least one instance of reincarnation. His disciples asked if he was Elijah "come again" (once more showing that talk of reembodiment was common among the group). Jesus replied, "Verily, Elijah has come again, and was known not" (something like that! - I cite from memory). We then read in the Bible: "From this, they understood that he referred to John the Baptist". (Orthodox Christianity can't quite get around that one and have to accept it, but they say, "It was a one-off. Elijah returning as John was a one-off event".) [Where's the smiley for roll of eyes? - :rolleyes: ]
It's also assumed by many esoteric writers that more referring to karma and reincarnation has been expunged from the Bible over time.
V
You know what? I think there have been many, many people as attuned as Jesus, including before his time, who were able to perform such acts of healing and 'miracles'. There certainly have been afterwards.
Wow, what a powerful statement and it really, what's that word, 'resonates' with me.
Gosh that really sits well with me, many thanks V.
RxXx
Hi Cirrus,
I wrote and believe that for three reasons:
1. I believe humanity and human civilisation dates back far longer than historians and archaeologists presently say. In other words, that there have been past Golden Ages, or at least past advanced civilisations. People such as Jesus had to come to 'resurrect' knowledge and ability that had once been commonplace.
2. To believe Jesus was the 'only' one who could work such 'miracles' and healings is to buy-in to the flawed doctrine that he was the "only Son of God, and God Himself" whereas we are all lesser, different, and 'sinners, born in original sin'.
3. There are many accounts of 'miracle'-workers, East and West, since Jesus. I personally always think of the amazing but little-known saint, St. Francis of Paola. There's a book on him, "St. Francis of Paola", by Simi and Segreti. His life was so astoundingly full of miracles that my friends and I actually find it funny! To be within a dozen yards of him at any time seems to have been to have lived in a miracle-filled world. 🙂 He performed every miracle attributed also to Jesus, but others too. His life is "funny" since he accepted these things so casually! Had a mule, carrying a load, died? Well - just bring it back to life! Had a furnace cracked and broken while being used? Well, no point in waiting for it to cool down - never mind that it's still hundreds of degrees Celsius inside - why not just walk inside the intense heat and flames to rebuild it right now? 🙂 Etc., etc.
V
1. I believe humanity and human civilisation dates back far longer than historians and archaeologists presently say. In other words, that there have been past Golden Ages, or at least past advanced civilisations. People such as Jesus had to come to 'resurrect' knowledge and ability that had once been commonplace.
2. To believe Jesus was the 'only' one who could work such 'miracles' and healings is to buy-in to the flawed doctrine that he was the "only Son of God, and God Himself" whereas we are all lesser, different, and 'sinners, born in original sin'.
Points 1 and 2 for me are very 'coherent'!
Point 3; thanks for the book reference. Amazon is going to do so well out of me after Christmas.
RxXx
Jesus, in the Bible itself, does refer to at least one instance of reincarnation. His disciples asked if he was Elijah "come again" (once more showing that talk of reembodiment was common among the group). Jesus replied, "Verily, Elijah has come again, and was known not" (something like that! - I cite from memory).
I read somewhere that Jesus was referring here to John the Baptist, and that Jesus himself had been Elisha previously, hence the 'transfer' of authority when John baptised Jesus (can't remember where I read it now as it was years ago).
Reincarnation is part of the Jewish tradition, and is referred to as Gilgul. The Romans commented on it when they were in Palestine.
You know what? I think there have been many, many people as attuned as Jesus, including before his time, who were able to perform such acts of healing and 'miracles'.
Me too. I know of a few living now.
1. I believe humanity and human civilisation dates back far longer than historians and archaeologists presently say. In other words, that there have been past Golden Ages, or at least past advanced civilisations.
These Golden ages are referred to in Hinduism as the Sathya Yugas, and they give the dates for them.
I read somewhere that Jesus was referring here to John the Baptist, and that Jesus himself had been Elisha previously, hence the 'transfer' of authority when John baptised Jesus (can't remember where I read it now as it was years ago).
Barafundle, I'm amazed that someone else (you as it happens) knows about this. It's a teaching that has been passed down to me, but I didn't mention it in the post above as I didn't think many others would believe it.
Mucho apologies to Judy too (kiss smiley), as it's not on the thread-topic. But maybe I'll just write here what my own background says. I received this, BTW, from Elizabeth Clare Prophet (real surname), so perhaps it's in her books and you read it there.
In the Old Testament (1st Book of Kings) it's clear that Elijah was a very major figure and prophet, with great 'powers', who "took on" all the false and black magicians of the day at once, and overcame them. Elisha became his main disciple. As Elisha is often quoted saying to Elijah, moving on to the 2nd Book of Kings, "As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee." In Indian terminology, we'd say they were Guru and chela, Elijah being the Guru. So, yes, my tradition has it that Elijah (though he became a complete Adept) did reembody, as John the Baptist, and Elisha was the immediately previous incarnation of Jesus. After being Elisha, he returned as Jesus. That's why John the Baptist and Jesus knew each other at the very first sight, and why they loved each other so. Jesus was chosen for the 'Christ mission', but his Guru of old, Elijah, incarnated first to pave the way for him. A lovely and wonderful story.
In their previous lives as Elijah and Elisha, Elijah (to become John) knew he was reaching the point of the Ascension. In II Kings Chapter 2, Elijah therefore lovingly granted his disciple one wish: "Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee". And Elisha said, "I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me". [When a Guru Ascends, or maybe even when they just pass on, a portion of their ability or spirituality descends upon their disciples to more empower them, as has happened many times East and West, and as even happened to the disciples of Jesus after his Ascension.]
Elijah replied: "Thou hath asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so." (That's II Kings, 2: 10.) One can read on from that verse 10. What Elijah meant was that it was a test of Elisha's attainment: if Elisha could see Elijah even for a time as he was Ascending beyond physical sight (as in II Kings 2: 11), then he was qualified to recieve a lot of Elijah's spiritual attainment, as passed on to a disciple. And the chapter goes on to relate how Elisha did see him in the process, and did receive the mantle of Elijah, both as a physical garment and as the power to work 'miracles'. Elijah just gone, Elisha cries: "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" - 'and when he had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither' i.e. the river parted to let him cross on the dry river bed: Elisha had inherited the powers. And the other followers of Elijah went over to Elisha, saying, "The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha."
So, of course there is no proof for this. But I and others accept that this wonderful Elijah and Elisha story is continued when John the Baptist and Jesus are born (both already being Adepts). John was the Guru and herald, but he too bowed to Jesus in principle, because Jesus came with the mission of demonstrating and embodying all that Christhood is intended to be. So then, even John bowed to him, as being 'not fit to tie his laces'.
So when they first meet in that next life at the river Jordan, Jesus bows in humility to his Guru, John, but John the Baptist in turn says no to that, as it's he who must bow and be humble to the one embodying the mission. Nevertheless, Jesus reminds him that all 'must be fulfilled' (A specific life-plan is already decided upon, and to follow the scriptures about Messiah), so John baptises Jesus. And then John tells some of his key followers to leave and follow Jesus.
V
I received this, BTW, from Elizabeth Clare Prophet (real surname), so perhaps it's in her books and you read it there.
No, I haven't read any of her books. I'm wracking my brains now to think where I got that from. I have a feeling it was one of Yogananda's books.
Just found this page, though strangely I haven't read the book that's quoted.
A great link, Barafundle. I didn't know that Yogananda's SRF also say the same that I also received, about Elijah and Elisha being John the Baptist and Jesus. It's enough to make anyone maybe stop and think, coming from two different sources.
Yes, I do believe that Jesus meant that John was greater than himself, "when he extolled John as the greatest of prophets born of woman (which included himself)". Probably orthodox Christians have long had a reply to that. I can guess it now - "born of woman" doesn't include Jesus, they'll somehow say, as he was "born of God". But he was indeed born of a womb, like John.
And I'd forgotten that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on a mountain, they already being Masters themselves. (It's an example of the Brotherhood of Light working together.)
V
I hope Judy doesn't mind these slight diversions.
Judy's original post did give such an excellent answer to the question posed in the thread title that I don't feel too bad.
I remember a while ago lending 'Autobiography of a Yogi' by Paramahansa Yogananda to friend who expressed an interest. If you don't know it, the book is a classic of spiritual literature, full of accounts of miracles and spiritual wonders. A marvellous book. I expected my friend to be as impressed by it as I was (am), but when he returned it he said that he had really enjoyed reading it, but in the end the stories were just anecdotes. Of course, he was right.
Whatever we think of who said what to whom and when, it all boils down to how we apply the teachings in our daily lives.
Ah, but aren't the "anecdotes" a part of the teachings? In other words, when we read that Jesus did a certain miraculous deed, which healed someone or which fed several thousand people from almost nothing, isn't that a teaching? And the same regarding the 'miracles' in Yogananda's autobiography. Reading of such accomplishments can inspire us as to the real potential of human beings, rather than buying into today's material, reductionist view of 'the person'.
Back on topic a bit, Judy would agree with that, as the 'anecdotes' of Jesus' life are the inspiration behind Christian Science, and what Judy believes in too. Without the 'stories' or anecdotes, 'teachings' can be just words without any back-up that the words can or have ever produced real effects.
Turning things the other way around, if by 'anecdote' we mean somebody saying that someone else did this or that, then Jesus' very teachings, themselves, are anecdotal. (The gospel authors simply 'say' that he spoke those words.)
So I'd link anecdote to teachings, as being both valid and inspirational. Having said that, they become meaningless to ourselves, personally, if we don't take them, accept and believe in them, and use them for self-transformation, yes.
On another forum, an academic today, in discussing spiritual matters, suddenly lapsed into four-letter words in a humourous way, along the lines of, "*, of what use is all this anyway, if we don't take responsibility for real self-change? Without that, the words are all just c." 🙂
V
So I'd link anecdote to teachings, as being both valid and inspirational. Having said that, they become meaningless to ourselves, personally, if we don't take them, accept and believe in them, and use them for self-transformation, yes.
I'd agree that the anecdotes can be teachings, if you're receptive to them. My friend surprised me by not reading the Yogananda book the way I did. To me it was a very inspirational book.
On other occasions I have told friends of miracles performed by someone I consider to be an avatar living today. They have dismissed the stories out of hand or derided the person I am describing, but I understand why they do it. Because of this I came to understand more fully how Jesus could have been persecuted in the way he was.
We're all different and you can't beat personal experience.
On other occasions I have told friends of miracles performed by someone I consider to be an avatar living today.
It basically just never works, does it? :rolleyes: That's the world, still, today. So it's a question of very carefully choosing and rarely telling...
V
Anyway...
Attempting to tie in more fully what we've been discussing with the thread topic...
An avatar is defined as the incarnation of God in human form. This incarnation comes to earth with the mission of reminding us of the purpose of life, which is to love. Love in a human form is sent to Earth to alleviate suffering.
As I see it we are all avatars. We are made in the image of God, therefore our true nature is divine, and our mission is to love.
As I see it we are all avatars. We are made in the image of God, therefore our true nature is divine, and our mission is to love.
I like that thought. In Hinduism, just IMHO, some people have been called "avatars" (which to traditional Hindus means they have liberation and hold no karma) when in fact IMO this is not quite so, and such teachers there are still pretty human, not what I'd call avatars in the Hindu sense.
But on your words I quote, I do agree, but - what a test 🙂 ... I'm now working in possibly the most notoriously dangerous and deprived area of a city. It can be pretty bad at times. So an interesting test, to learn to see them all as divine. (I've a training day next week on how to cope with their violence!) 🙂
V
Hi V........Good luck, working with in that area!!......funny thing is, they understand the violence........it's the.... LOVE....they can't quite get to grips with.
Personally.....I only advertise for business within the city!....I like meeting all the diverse characters.
OK, so what is the Christian Science view? Not one of the above! If God sends suffering, why on earth was Jesus sent to show us the way out of it? It's not logical.
Ah but it is logical, suffering has been with all living things since the creation
(perhaps a fault in the creative dna or perhaps even the first karma). It is therefore logical that throughout that time there have been many who have and who still are returning/reincarnating to this and perhaps many other planets to teach us an understanding of “Why grief and suffering”.
Hi Healistic,
OK, if you want to believe that the Creator made a flawed creation - you're in good company! Most Jews and Christians believe in the Genesis 2 allegory of Adam and Eve, where a perfect, spiritual creation then became a material, flawed one and fell from grace and was cursed!
What I'm trying to say, is that God did not make suffering - mortal limited fearful beliefs, cause suffering and Jesus showed us the way out of it, but his core teaching was largely ignored.
I'm also saying that there exists a universal principle of harmony - it's called the Kingdom of Heaven and it's available to all. Seers and sages throughout the centuries have glimpsed this divine law and have demonstrated it, but I understand Jesus to be the greatest embodiment and teacher of it.
Jesus required neither cycles of time nor thought in order to mature fitness for perfection and its possibilities. He said that the kingdom of heaven is here, and is included in Mind;... (from Unity of Good p 11 by Mary Baker Eddy)
Love and peace,
Judy
As Healistic quoted Judy:
"OK, so what is the Christian Science view? Not one of the above! If God sends suffering, why on earth was Jesus sent to show us the way out of it? It's not logical."
How about: God sends (gives) the gift of free will. Oops! Somewhere along the line we messed that one up good and proper (allegorically described in the Eden story, and the apple, the loss of innocence). Hence, there's suffering. So Jesus and others do indeed come to show us the way out of that. How to better use our free will.
V
Judy's original post did give such an excellent answer to the question posed in the thread title that I don't feel too bad.
Thank you Barafundle - those words are deeply appreciated! :1kis: and of course, I totally agree with these:
As I see it we are all avatars. We are made in the image of God, therefore our true nature is divine, and our mission is to love.
Love and peace,
Judy
As Healistic quoted Judy:
"OK, so what is the Christian Science view? Not one of the above! If God sends suffering, why on earth was Jesus sent to show us the way out of it? It's not logical."
How about: God sends (gives) the gift of free will. Oops! Somewhere along the line we messed that one up good and proper (allegorically described in the Eden story, and the apple, the loss of innocence). Hence, there's suffering. So Jesus and others do indeed come to show us the way out of that. How to better use our free will.
V
Ha! That only works if you believe in the allegory of Genesis 2&3 which completely contradicts the account of the perfect spiritual creation of Genesis 1! :confused:
So Venetian, the nature of God includes the potential to make mistakes?
So has God has given us free will to choose for ourselves whether we want to obey him or not?
That’s certainly what Orthodox Christianity believes. In other words, if we’re to blame for our own sins, then God can’t be held responsible and the concept of a good God is left intact.
Throughout the Bible, people are disobedient to God (blamed on their human nature), they sin and sin, ignore God and turn away from Him, then all sorts of terrible catastrophes happen to them and of course, many then complain "Where was God when this happened?" "Why doesn’t He intervene to stop this suffering?" History repeats itself.
However, doesn’t this also raise as many questions as it might try to answer? Why on earth would a good creator want to create a vulnerable person in the first place and surely, if that vulnerable person (who to me is reflecting an equally weak concept of god), then suffers as a result, surely the creator has some responsibility in all this? As I said at the beginning of this thread, there is also the belief that suffering is god’s gracious means for making us return to him and then, through repentance we will find the way.
I just want to say that the Christian Science view of this last sentence is that in the human realm, sin is its own punishment. That, when we do things that don’t work (like going through a red traffic light for example) the suffering that can come as a result is what stops that behaviour in the future (at least in anyone with a hint of a conscience). It’s not God, divine Love who punishes, but sin punishes itself in order to destroy itself. All hurtful behaviour will, sometime, here or hereafter have to be faced up to and repented of, in order that we can let go of the dualistic mortal thinking and beliefs that are holding us back and become free to live and be who we really are – the spiritual ideas (or avatars as Barafundle put it) of God.
I was discussing this concept with a friend and he wrote this as a reminder, which I found very helpful:
Although it appears that mortal man continually violates the Will of God by having a free will opposed to Him, we understand that this is only part of the dream or supposition that reality is in so-called intelligent matter and separate from divine Mind.
2+2 = 5 never can be a force against truth (2+2 = 4), because it is a supposition only, and NEVER accomplishes or manifests any speck of Truth.
The Christian Science view of free will is freedom FROM, not freedom TO. Freedom from suffering, freedom from lack, freedom from hatred and violence. Freedom from making wrong choices, freedom from the ways that do not work (the meaning of the word "sin".) Freedom to express the qualities of God, freedom to BE the sons and daughters of God, freedom from what would prevent us from enjoying our right to health, harmony, and all the good God has for each of us. Real freedom and independence of thought come not from asserting human will but from conforming to the will of God (which is always good.) In other words, it is in being and doing God’s will that we find true freedom.
Love and peace,
Judy