Christianity/Judaism/Islam and new age practices

A 'neutral' reply from me, since I follow no religion as such ... or rather a question as to the roots or origins of beliefs that 'New Agey' practices such as you mention are considered dangerous or wrong.

For instance, as a Christian, do you happygirl know from where and when these beliefs may have stemmed, or even the reason why?

Similarly, perhaps HP members of other religions might care to reply in like vein?

Holistic

A 'neutral' reply from me, since I follow no religion as such ... or rather a question as to the roots or origins of beliefs that 'New Agey' practices such as you mention are considered dangerous or wrong.

For instance, as a Christian, do you happygirl know from where and when these beliefs may have stemmed, or even the reason why?

Similarly, perhaps HP members of other religions might care to reply in like vein?

Holistic

ESP is perfectly natural and normal, albeit rare.

May I suggest a book by that wonderful English writer: John Wyndham?

The chrysalids.

Very relevant to this thread.

Regards.

Prashna

Hi HappyGirl, I've been wanting to ask something simular but didn't know quite how to put it into words so firstly I'd just like to say thanks for your post:):):)

I’m Christian and I’ve always been brought up to believe that anything “new agey” (sorry can’t think of a better word/description but I’m referring to things like psychics, mediums, palm readers, tarot readers etc) as dangerous and wrong

My personal thought on this is that we (humans) are all natually enquisative (sp) and intuitive, I don't want to offend others but I do think that many religons have formed to rule and control people..again..sorry if that offends but this is only my view..so people are made to 'live it' because they fear it..or the consiquences of not abiding to the writen letter ...but that doesn't mean that fortune tellers, mediums ect are right, I do think that there is danger and wrongness with it, people can lean towards relying on pyschics too much and look for answers from them, pyschics can start to 'think' that they're different or special or in someway a higher human,......well thats the only danger I can see in it anyway.

I have read tarot for many years, I was aware of my own intuition from when I was young enough to be told it was wrong:o..I'm also from a strong religious background but it's only since I've started to dip my toes into spirituality do I question 'where do I actually fit in' :confused:

Recently I did some tarot cards online which were quite good. Trouble is - I feel guilty.

The guilt is engrained in you IMHO because of your up bringing, you've been brought up being told that these things are wrong, is it your heart that tells you you're wrong or your head. Does the feeling of wrongness hold you back from exploring and discovering 'other things'

Sorry, I know I'm not the one to give you a good answer but I'm looking forward to reading you replies:)

Love
Amy
xxx

I was led to believe all Holistic Therapies were considered 'New Agey', albeit that they work in syncronicity with the body.....isn't that magic or witchcraft.

I was also taught that if a person have enough faith, they can perform miracles......which is a Christian concept.......seems to me, it depends on which path you walk, as to whether it is considered good or not.

I, for one, prefer to walk a solitary path....

I think it's such a shame, really a crying shame, that people are brought up to believe that they have to take the Church's word for something, rather than being able to make up their own mind. To be made to feel guilty about experiencing something for oneself is just terrible. If you don't experience it, how can you know if it's good or bad. I think one should follow one's heart and not simply blindly go along with the teachings of the religion one was born into. As with everything in the whole wide world, some new age stuff is valid and some isn't. But it's certainly not all evil. Whereas some churches can be (think Jamestown, think David Koresh, think Heaven's Gate.) Also think Spanish Inquisition, think Protestant martyr burnings .....let's all think for ourselves, folks, and not let anyone or any church do our thinking for us. Only then will we hear God whispering in our hearts. All IMVHO.

xxx

Hi Happygirl,

Just a short missive from me, as you say you were brought up a Christian and feel some guilt when you do something that possibly contravenes its teachings - it may be good place for you to start there.
Between all the lines you’ll find in Christian texts the constant promotion of meditation and the advice to ‘seek’.
The Gnostics were Christian (although they pis*ed the pope off so much he got crusading knights to murder them for him but that’s a different story) they certainly sought communion with ‘the one’ directly by going into ‘themselves’ and looking to harness and further develop energies (and or a self existent internal ‘power’) to achieve it.
They also (like many early Christians) acknowledged man’s inherent ability to heal (as OakApple eludes to also) – John the Baptist by all accounts was an extraordinary healer highly revered by Christianity yet not a Chrisitan… & the highly thought of three wise men (the mages) were probably Persian Astrologers and seers probably Zoroastrians …(and it's not dissimilar to listening to the potentially high virgins of the Oracle) yet they are perfectly acceptable – so the guilt you feel is grafted on much later and full of contradiction by men driven by the desire to control and own both the people and the wealth and not least create a totally male dominated credo.

I think it's a good starting point to see how bent outta shape it got, cover the important festivals and how they mirror pagan beliefs and history, both on these shores and even old Roman faiths like the similarity of their God Mithras, the Summarian similarities to the Ist Testament (which links to Judaism and Islam) and then also move onto other faiths... I get the feeling you won't have the guilt pangs much longer;)

Hi Happygirl,

Recently I did some tarot cards online which were quite good. Trouble is - I feel guilty. I did think about getting some tarot cards to find out more about myself but I feel bad about it.

I don't have my book of information to hand here at work but I'll recall what I can. The Sci-Fi and Fantasy Fiction author Piers Anthony wrote a Novel called Tarot and, in his later single book edition (originally it was printed as 3 books against his will), he includes authors notes which describe his research into tarot cards and their origins.

Many 'churches' (to use the term loosely) teach that tarot cards are somehow 'evil' and I even have a relative who refuses to (or at least use to refuse to) have playing cards in the house because of her religious beliefs.

However, if you look at the history of Tarot cards, according to Piers Anthony, you will see that they are not in fact evil at all, and they are not even 'new age'.

Playing cards have been around since before we can remember and are believed to have come from egypt (doesn't everything ;)). Tarot cards appear to have been developed somewhere in the Early Middle Ages (or was it just the Middle Ages? I'll have to look it up when I get home).

The tarot cards were used by teachers in the church to enable them to travel around and teach religion to the poor/peasants. Because these people couldn't read there was no point in showing them copies of the bible to read and so, images were used in order to teach the ways of the church and act as illustration of the stories and morals that they wanted to teach. The images were developed into 'cards' to make them portable and because, at the time, the church was being outlawed by the king of the time, if the 'authorities' came knocking then it wouldn't be obvious that church teachings were being given as it could be easily disguised as a card game.

Modern packs have 78 cards although it is believed that there was also another suit of cards which has now been lost with time so, originally there would have been more cards.

Wikipedia has some information that is also interesting and also mentions a 96 card pack and the use of cards for teaching Qabalistic principles.

Divination using cards is something that is believed to be more recent, the earliest documented evidence being in the 18th century.

So the question should really be, is divination using cards against the teachings of the 'church'. If you believe that the church teaches us to find the truth within ourselves that we all have buried within us and divination techniques are ways of accessing that knowledge within us, then what is the difference. One way is being told it (over and over again) by someone who is in 'authority' within the church and the other is finding it for ourselves.

Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi all,

Thanks for all your replies. I'm not sure I can answer to all your points individually in this short space of time I have.

I guess though that I've been brought up to believe that any form of divination and foretelling the future is wrong - simply because Christians believe that God doesn't tell you your future and that you should have faith in him. So if God isn't telling you your future then what is ?? Many Christians say that it's evil spirits leading you astray (so to speak).

I've looked for some Bible quotes to mention but in my lunchtime can only find 1 or 2 which are:

2 Kings 17:17-18 - Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him. So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from His sight

and

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer"

Hence my confusion over things.:o

I'm a practicing Catholic and am interested in all things "new age". Have been interested in such matters since about 13 or 14. Introduced my priest to Reiki, chi kung and EFT. Not sure many priests are that open minded, though.

Interestingly, when finding a venue for my tai chi class, the only ones to object to me running such a class were Anglican churches. Catholic churches (who are seen as very traditional) were more than happy to let me use their hall.

If you are interested, why not investigate. You can then decide if it's for you or not.

One problem here is probably the lumping of so many diverse and different things under one blanket term, 'New Age'. It covers so many things now, and in my opinion for what it's worth, a lot are just plain silly and a waste of time, other aspects of the New Age touch upon the highly spiritual (more so than almost anything in the church IMHO), and then there are a few things I do regard as 'unwholesome' and best avoided. I've gone over those aspects I disagree with before so won't name them again. Follow your heart.

But most types of Christianity say something along the lines of the New Age being evil. Frankly it's ridiculous: I've seen lists they've drawn up of what they want banned if they could - including homeopathy, telepathy (a natural human ability), yoga (!!! which can be just exercise) and ... meditation! What do they think real prayer is if not a meditation? So they haven't a clue what they are talking about.

A great background book showing how the real and original Christianity incorparated what the church now says is evil is "Esoteric Christianity" by Annie Besant: it shows how the early Christians and their beliefs were largely what we'd now call New Age, accepting reincarnation, that we all can become a Christ, etc., etc.

V

Thanks all. Yes - I did have a bit of a problem lumping all the new age stuff together and that's why i mentioned just the things like tarot reading, palm reading which relate to forecasting the future and what will happen.

I've done meditation in Catholic sessions so I (and they I suppose) don't have a problem with things like mediatation, homeopathy, tai chi etc as they're not related to finding out about the future or anything like that.

I guess though that I've been brought up to believe that any form of divination and foretelling the future is wrong - simply because Christians believe that God doesn't tell you your future and that you should have faith in him. So if God isn't telling you your future then what is ?? Many Christians say that it's evil spirits leading you astray (so to speak).

I've looked for some Bible quotes to mention but in my lunchtime can only find 1 or 2 which are:

2 Kings 17:17-18 - Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him. So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from His sight

and

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer"

Hence my confusion over things.

From that, I can understand the confusion. :rolleyes:

Ok, time for me to switch from my atheist mode (I'm not anti-religion, just I don't believe in God in the way it is taught traditionally in Churches), talk in terms of religion and religious teachings and perhaps challenge some beliefs and understandings (no offence intended to anyone). Forgive me for getting somewhat philosophical and using logical deduction, but I think it helps to perhaps look at things from a different angle from time to time... 😉

I'm going to specifically refer to "people" as those who believe in God in the following.

Firstly I think it's fair to say that most people believe that (wo)man(kind) was created in the image of God, as taught in the Bible, though the interpretation of this can differ from person to person. For some they see this as though they are a seperate entity from God (a servant if you like) and that God is a seperate entity that they must follow the words of, however I don't believe that this is what the Bible is actually teaching. I believe that the meaning here is that we are all God and God is us and that the knowledge of God is within each of us but many people find difficulty accessing that knowledge of God that is within them. It is this knowledge that knows truth, can differentiate between good and bad and that guides us through our unconscious mind influencing our conscious actions.

The passages you quote from the Bible are interesting, however we have to recognise that such a work has been around for many years, language has changed and, as such, the Bible has been re-written and re-translated many times (cynically, my favourite has to be the Good News bible which is so full of doom and gloom I can't see where the good news is in it). As such I believe that the word "divination" is being used wrongly here and that we should perhaps have a translation as foretelling and hence differentiate between "divination" and "foretelling".

Let's start with Foretelling...[INDENT]Fore = Ahead, Telling = To speak as if fact[/INDENT]Foretelling is the act of speaking factually about the future. But what is the future?

The future does not exist, as it is merely a concept of a time which has yet to come. When that time does come it is the present. We only ever live in the present. How can anyone "tell" the future as whatever has yet to happen may change through our own ability to make choices and act on the information we have in the present. If somewhere were to claim to tell us of our future where we were going to e.g. have 3 children, we could act in the present to prevent that from happening and therefore the foretelling is proven to be false.

Now let's look at Divination...[INDENT]Divin = Divine, ation = the action or inspiriation of[/INDENT]Divination is the inspiration of the Divine.

What is the Divine?

In the religious sense the Divine is God; thus it is the knowledge that is within us. Divination is the inspiration of the knowledge that is within each of us.

Using divination techniques such as tarot cards, dowsing etc. allows us to access that divine knowledge that is within each of us; a knowledge that is built around what we have learnt from the past (past lives too if you believe in them) and hold within us in the present moment. Our unconscious has access to this knowledge but we often struggle to bring this to our conscious mind. Divination tools are merely that, just tools that assist in bringing the unconscious knowledge to the conscious. Many times you will hear of people looking outwards for answers to things and then realising or even being told how the answers are not outside of themselves but, by looking within, they already have the answers. Meditation can also be used as a divination technique, asking a question, relaxing the conscious mind which then allows the answers to the question to raise up from the unconscious knowledge. This is contemplative meditation and is used by many religions.

So, referring back to the biblical quotes, if you replace divination with foretelling (or fortune telling) then it is perhaps correct that this act is seen as evil or wrong in some way. However, by differentiating between fortelling and divination, one being the telling of the future, the other being seeking divine knowledge in the present, it is not unreasonable to see that there is no evil in divination.

Of course, at the end of the day, it's up to you to have your own understanding and make your own decision as to what you feel is right. Personally I can't see what is wrong with seeking answers from the knowledge that is within yourself; knowledge that is the divine God placed within us all; Divination is like praying to God for answers to your questions.

Ok, time for me to switch back to atheist mode. 😉

Love and Reiki Hugs

You're not alone! I was raised Catholic. For me there is much that's beautiful about the religion and I have no desire to leave it behind, but at the same time I've long been interested in things that are considered off-limits or 'dangerous' like pagan beliefs. Looking back what might be called New Age ideas were a part of my upbringing too as my mother took an interest in tarot and psychic abilities (it seems to run in the family), but she always treated these things with some trepidation and cautioned me to take them seriously and not to play around.

It's difficult to explain faith, but I feel that if you look inside yourself and examine your actions and beliefs you will find a path that can lead you forward without (much) guilt. Although it's kind of mushy I feel that most religions are just different ways of saying essentially the same thing. As such I'm not so concerned about dogma as I used to be. Like others pointed out, many of the traditions of the Christian church can be traced back older beliefs and practices. Although much of it was probably deliberate I like to see it as a continuation of some essential human beliefs.

May I add a bit to my posts above, since others have dived in too? On the Bible's comments upon what I and many others call 'psychic activities' (as opposed to spiritual activities or the moving of oneself closer to God), you quoted the below.

I've looked for some Bible quotes to mention but in my lunchtime can only find 1 or 2 which are:

2 Kings 17:17-18 - Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him. So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from His sight

and

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer"

Hence my confusion over things.:o

I think we all, and especially those who aren't much interested in scripture and / or a belief in God, have to get over the fact that the Old Testament books are worded in a certain way, for a certain people at a certain time, whether they are accurately translated (maybe not) or no. So let's dispense with the feeling that there's fire and brimstone threatened here? That's perhaps a long-gone past way of expressing things.

In Hinduism, which IMHO is equally relevant to one's search for or moving toward God for those who choose that Path, there are various yogic schools. And it's well-understood by the best of them that there's one direction Life intends us to be moving, and that's toward God / the One / our Higher Self / the Source (whatever name we give to It). Along that way a lot of people come to realise that the non-material worlds encompass abilities that may be tapped. It's the whole smorgasbord from - gosh, I don't know! - tarot cards to palmistry, astrology to astral projection, seeing auras or moving obects without touching them (psychokinesis). In raja (royal) yoga and kind of in Hinduism in general these are called "siddhis". They're powers, possibilities and activities which exist, can be done, but which are for the most part neither here nor there on the Path to God or to one's spiritual wholeness.

It's well-known by the best yogic schools and other spiritual movements of the world that people get totally wrapped up in these, or can, so that they lose sight of the real goal. Hence you get people who's attention and interest is very largely taken up with, say, palmistry, but who may rarely, or even never, have their attention upon God in a genuine sense of communion. Or others get totally caught up in fire-walking (as in your Old Testament quotes), and so on and on - the whole smorgasbord of possibilities which are out there as distractions. So the highest yogis shun siddhis, and even if they have natural 'powers' of their own, they may never demonstrate them. They know they are of little importance, or none, or worse - that they can distract from the Goal.

I mention Hinduism only as I know that in its raja yoga aspect it has a well-developed knowledge of these siddhis (powers) and on how they can be an unwholesome distraction. (Mind you, so can many material-world things such as an overwhelming desire for money, or for sex, or hatred for someone, or spending too long watching TV or being into loads of football [slightly guilty!].) But the same principle has usually been known on other spiritual paths: the Catholic saints often had 'amazing' powers, but often hid them. Was it one of the St. Catherines who used to levitate while in prayer, but was ashamed and tried to hide it as it caused such a rumpus?

So the quotes in the Old Testament are simply the way 'siddhis' were referred to then and in that place, in that culture. At least as it's come to us in English, rather than saying "these things are unwholesome since most people end up getting totally distracted by them", in the good old O.T. we have them called "evil" and so forth. Well, if 'evil' is a distraction that takes a devout person away from their walk with God, then one might go so far, in those days, as to say it's 'evil'. The key is not to get so distracted and to keep one's walk with God foremost, along with actual spiritual practice of some form of communion.

Mind you, if we look at the example of the life of Jesus, I think you get a pretty good idea of how siddhis or powers can be used at times for the good. You don't find Jesus reading tea leaves, but you do find him performing 'miraculous' healings. Also, until the right time was come, those who sought to kill him, which was often, could not since 'he disappeared from their midst'. Practical, I'd say! (but not showing off the power, and not disappearing all the time just to impress people). A lot of psychic things are done to impress others, to attract attention. Not all, obviously. Because thousands who wished to hear him were extremely hungry, he multiplied the loaves and fishes - because it was practical for the occasion, and clearly not just to play around with the power as though it were a party trick.

So that's my PoV. There's an element of truth in the Biblical quotes, but Christians today go way overboard and shun such distractions as 'evil' and 'of the devil'. I think of them all as psychic soap operas - they can just simply catch you up and thoroughly waste one's important time.

I'd held back giving this point of view as, just looking at the various HP forums, it crosses the beliefs and practices of others. But that's how I and others see it anyway, and you did post under "Faiths" under which religious beliefs should be respected. 🙂

V

Don't know why you held back V, I think that's a very commendable response and I had completely forgotten about the siddhis and how people may come to abuse such things.

A very good read. Thanks for that.

Love and Reiki Hugs

Thanks Giles, tapestry and Venetain - your posts deserve more consideration than I can give in my lunchtime and will re-read them soon when i can give them the attention they deserve.

the Catholic saints often had 'amazing' powers, but often hid them. Was it one of the St. Catherines who used to levitate while in

Not heard about St. Catherine levitating (but I'm not saying it's not true as I simply don't know) !! St. Teresa of Avila was quite famous for levitation as was reputedly St. John of the Cross.

Oh, I was thinking of Teresa of Avila, yes. She'd go floating off pretty high apparently!

BTW, from your two quotes again, I notice the specific things named: such as 'magic', 'sorcery' and 'enchantments'. It seems to me that this tends to suggest a people who were not just distracted (as in my post on siddhis above) but using magical powers for purely physical effects and gain. So this isn't the 'New Age' as such, but sounds more along the lines of approaching 'black' (selfish) magic, where spirituality or helping others isn't part of the equation.

V

I just wanted to ask a few questions regarding the link between Christianity (or indeed Judaism/Islam) and new age practices.

I’m Christian and I’ve always been brought up to believe that anything “new agey” (sorry can’t think of a better word/description but I’m referring to things like psychics, mediums, palm readers, tarot readers etc) as dangerous and wrong.

I went to a “famous” psychic years ago and she was useless. Since then I’ve steered well clear even though friends have invited me to see psychics with them. Recently I did some tarot cards online which were quite good. Trouble is - I feel guilty. I did think about getting some tarot cards to find out more about myself but I feel bad about it. I’m also aware that people belonging to other religions do the same. My OH’s friends have been to palm readers (which is against the teachings of Islam) and they are Muslim.

I’m interested to hear what Christians, Muslims, Jews (or indeed anyone who has/hasn't a belief) think about new age things (although most aren’t “new” as they’ve been around centuries) !!

Love and hugs :grouphug:

Christians are warned to not get involved in this type of witchcraft. You are looking to the occult for guidance, and not to God. Tarot cards, oiuja boards, and palm reading...all not for Christians, IMO.

Saul, Israel's first king, started out well. He expelled mediums and spiritists from the land, yet then violated God’s word and his own conscience by consulting a medium (1 Samuel 28:3-25). His end was tragic (1 Samuel 31:1-6).

[INDENT]Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power (Acts 19:18-20).

[INDENT]Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God (Leviticus 19:31).

I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people (Leviticus 20:6).

When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? (Isaiah 8:19). [/INDENT][/INDENT] So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty (Malachi 3:5).