Someone on the General Discussion forum said this (below) and I questioned whether or not it just applied to Christianity and Catholicism but not Islam or other religions as well. I was told to post the topic over here. So here it is. Discuss!
"Constantine was a man who boiled alive his own wife, although Christian, and strangled to death his own relatives. His favorite way of killing those who opposed him was to hang them up inverted, cut their throat and watch them die. He liked this because they would take a long time to die as blood remained in the head.
"People look on Christianity as a force for Good, bringing light and moral guidance to the pagans, a decadent people.
"The real history of Christianity though is the direct opposite - a force of evil unsurpassed in human history that plunged civilized Europe into the dark ages.
"Christianity ruined peoples lives and set civilization back thousands of years from the glories of Rome and Greece. It was only the determined efforts of brave, enlightened people like Leonardo de Vinci who took on the might of the Catholic Church that led to the European Renaissance and the revival of the Greek Philosophy and Learning.
"The idiotic Catholic Church had forced people to live very depressed, wretched and impoverished lives. The Christians seemed to believe that forcing people to live unhappy, miserable lives in total ignorance was a good thing - enjoyment of life, sensual pleasure, happiness and the exploration of nature and its Laws was considered Evil in Christianity.
"The “Dark Ages” seriously effected over a billion Europeans for some 14000 years, and the effects of sexual repression are in force today all over the world.
"Experts put the death toll at about 10,000,000 people including about 2,000,000 women labeled as 'witches' then killed or burned to death.
"Europeans endured 1400 years at the hands of these religious fanatics.
"In the name of God, repressed fanatics searched out people with heretical ideas, but in particular those who sinned - this could be anything, but especially sex or anything else that the people enjoyed doing."
Hi Learning, the quote below was made by Jamesk
Learning, I really can’t start attacking Islam as well, after Christianity has been so attacked by James, so if you don’t mind, I will just address the following to him. What I do know is that the purity of the original religion (a reconnecting to the divine) is often not what the founder of the religion was trying to share with the world.
I do know that Islam has high moral codes which are taken to an extreme degree in places like Saudi where they even have “moral police” A friend of mine was thrown into jail because the man she was walking with grabbed her shoulder to stop her being hit by a speeding car.
I have to say James that I am very very disappointed in you. I have always respected you and read your posts with interest and can’t believe that you are churning out this vitriol, which sounds just like a fundamentalist ranting about an atheist. Sorry, but you are exhibiting a gross ignorance of what Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) really is.
What you are describing below is Churchianity, not Christianity. Christianity is fully presented in Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. (Matt 5-7) Gross corruption of the pure and good teachings of any religion are always the result of individuals (normally men in the past) who were after power, wealth and self-preservation. Very often heinous crimes done in the name of religion were actually tribal warfare.
This is an interesting website regarding original Christianity before it was organised and corrupted:
313 AD - The beginning of Constantine's cooption of Christianity when Christian teachings and practices began to change drastically
Though the subject of sex and sin is not the purpose of this new thread, let me just say that again, I feel you do not understand the basis for the desire for sanctity of the marriage vows and how spirituality (I’m not talking about spiritualism) to many sincere seekers for truth, is a rising above the animal passions of the body to the incorporeal purity of Spirit. Many religious ways embrace chastity (even celibacy) It’s not just Catholicism, but (Norbu will confirm) most Buddhist monks, many Hindu gurus, Brahma Kumari and I’m sure many other orders take vows of celibacy.
Whether you agree with it or not James, please show some respect for people of many religious persuasions who are endeavouring to live the highest they know how.
Mary Baker Eddy wrote this:
[COLOR="Blue"]
Chastity is the cement of civilization and progress. Without it there is no stability in society, and without it one cannot attain the Science of Life. (Science and Health p 57)
You might find this interesting. Ginny, the author, was a rock singer and during an overdose of LSD, she had an experience that changed her life and caused her to leave behind the old life that only brought pain and emptiness, to embrace a higher way of living and loving.
[url] Shedding light on love and sexuality[/url]
Love and peace,
Judy
Christianity (old testament), Islam and Judaism all have the Abrahamic texts in common, just different interpretations of them. Islam and Christianity then have their "Messiahs" which, although different, have the same pattern in the evolution of the religion. Of course, Christianity also has the historical records showing the debate between the Bishops and Constantine over which of the two versions of christianity should be the "state religion" and if Jesus should be presented to the masses as the son of God or as a normal man.
Just quickly dipping in here, to clarify on the 'dark ages'.
The writer quoted in the initial post was obviously having a major tantrum, and some of the information cited is b*****s TBH. I'll give you an example:
[COLOR="Blue"]"The “Dark Ages” seriously effected over a billion Europeans for some 14000 years, and the effects of sexual repression are in force today all over the world."
The 'Dark Ages' didn't last for "14000 years", clearly a typo, but not either for 1,400 years. The 'Dark Ages' were relatively illumined actually: they are only called "dark" due to the fact that there is very little written historical record from the time. It began when the Romans left Britain, hence Latin records ended for a time, and it ended when the written record was taken up again. The word "dark" here doesn't apply to anything moral or spiritual, but is simply, in history, a word used to delineate that there wasn't much of a written record kept. So knowledge of the time is 'dark', that's all. This applies not to "14000" or to 1,400 years, but about 300 to 400 years - say roughly from 400 AD to 800 AD in Britain when Catholic priests took up record-keeping once more.
Am I right off-hand that Chaucer actually wrote his seminal works during that time? Am just guessing, but I know he was early.
One frustrating thing about the real dark ages, not the imaginary ones cited in the first post, is that it encapsulates precisely the time of King Arthur, Merlin, and Camelot - so while IMHO and in the opinion of many others, that is all not myth, but actual fact, no detailed record of it all was kept, so we have had to conjecture and figure it out. South Cadbury Hill in Somerset is now considered the most likely site for the real Camelot, and I love the place.
V
I just looked up Chaucer: he was born in the first half of the 1300s, and "Brit Lit" had got going again well and truly by then. His works are a huge laugh, and so ironic that he begged forgiveness for them before he died. Very funny all the same. :p:p:p
Chaucer is recognised as the real starter of Brit Lit once the relatively unwritten 'dark ages' were over. He's wonderfully ironic, and TBH I don't think his thousands of gibes will be understood by any modern reader unless they take a course on him, or at least have a good guidebook. But he was a very 'naughty boy', and there were no 'Dark Ages' by his time.
Re the 'dark ages' there is in fact a letter discovered (no time tonight to search it up online) probably from King Arthur, in Latin as I recall, written from Britain to one of his generals on the Continent - so people did still write. There just isn't much of a comprehensive record of a few centuries in Britain. So that is called the 'dark ages'.
V
The 'Dark Ages' didn't last for "14000 years", clearly a typo, but not either for 1,400 years. The 'Dark Ages' were relatively illumined actually: they are only called "dark" due to the fact that there is very little written historical record from the time. It began when the Romans left Britain, hence Latin records ended for a time, and it ended when the written record was taken up again. The word "dark" here doesn't apply to anything moral or spiritual, but is simply, in history, a word used to delineate that there wasn't much of a written record kept. So knowledge of the time is 'dark', that's all. This applies not to "14000" or to 1,400 years, but about 300 to 400 years - say roughly from 400 AD to 800 AD in Britain when Catholic priests took up record-keeping once more.
Thanks for clarifying this V, and my appolgies for the typo. As I mentioned, the quote was from a piece I wrote elsewhere - about the history of massage and pleasure actually!
However, it is not correct to say that the "dark ages" were "used to delineate that there wasn't much of a written record kept." - I've seen this view, but it is wrong.
Petrarch in the 1330's was the first to create the concept of the "Dark Ages", which for him was a direct reversal of the then dominant Christian view. The Christians considered the Roman/Greek/Egyptian periods as "dark" because they lacked the "light" of Christianity - ie the concept of dark/light ages is Christian.
Petrarch though showed that the Classical period was the "age of light" because of its cultural achievements, and considered his own Christian period, which was lacking such cultural achievements, as the "age of darkness".
From WikiPedia:
Petrarch wrote that history had had two periods: the classic period of the Greeks and Romans, followed by a time of darkness, in which he saw himself as still living.
The reason that it was "a time of darkness" was because there was no reason - whatever the Church said was true, became true, no argument was allowed. The Church believed that the world was flat, the sun revolved around us, the world was 4000 years old, sex and physical pleasures were sins, we'll go "straight to hell" if we sinned, and so on - and went about killing everyone that didn't agree with them.
This "darkness" started around 300 AD with Constantine, continued through Petrarch's period (who coined the term as we now view it), it continued through the "middle ages" which were considered periods of "Catholic corruption" by the protrestants; it continued through the 17th/18th century (the Enlightenment, but only for the few that could read or write), right up to early modern times, where most people could again read and write and think for themselves.
As I see it, this "darkness" in europe lasted 1400 years, and it's effects are there just below the surface in most people - and account for the neurosis in the modern world, which as Freud said "are essentially substitute gratifications for unfulfilled sexual wishes."
Learning, I really can’t start attacking Islam as well, after Christianity has been so attacked by James, so if you don’t mind, I will just address the following to him. What I do know is that the purity of the original religion (a reconnecting to the divine) is often not what the founder of the religion was trying to share with the world.
Hi Judy,
I'm sorry, i was not "attacking" Christianity, or wish to offend anyones feelings - I tried to explain that the corruption of Christs message of Love started around 330AD with Constantine, so it should have been relabelled Constantineity, or Churchianity as you call it, because it had nothing to do with Jesus.
I have to say James that I am very very disappointed in you. I have always respected you and read your posts with interest and can’t believe that you are churning out this vitriol, which sounds just like a fundamentalist ranting about an atheist.
Again, I'm sorry if you see it this way, from my part there is no "vitroil" towards anyone - I just explained things as they happened historically, and I will stand corrected if you can show that my reading of history is wrong.
What you are describing below is Churchianity, not Christianity. Christianity is fully presented in Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. (Matt 5-7) Gross corruption of the pure and good teachings of any religion are always the result of individuals (normally men in the past) who were after power, wealth and self-preservation. Very often heinous crimes done in the name of religion were actually tribal warfare.
Yes, I agree.
I've commented on the sex and sin aspect of you message on the "sex and spirituality" thread.
Hi James,
No problem re the typo of 14000 years. Typos! - we all make 'em, and certainly I do.
I disagree with your view of what the "Dark Ages" means BTW. Traditionally it is a term simply used to mean lack of written record. Ask a good historian, and he or she will tell you. You cite Wikipedia on it, but Wiki is just another forum, upon which members of the public strut their stuff and opinions - it's full of controversy and disagreements: just click on the top "Discussion" tab of many subjects to see this, and be very surprised - or join in and change the whole page yourself if you want to! I was put up to doing that once. 🙂
V
The writer quoted in the initial post was obviously having a major tantrum, and some of the information cited is b*****s TBH. I'll give you an example:
As he just admitted V, that writer was James! That was why I was so disturbed - I always assumed (perhaps wrongly) James that you are a Sufi or have Sufi leanings. Surely those sort of unloving words are not in harmony with Sufi teachings?
Also (I really am having a moan at you today James, aren't I?) why, as Learning has pointed out, has Islam been excluded from your rant? If you are talking about sexual repression, then I would have thought Islam was far worse than Christianity (or Churchianity) Look at your words here:
"In the name of God, repressed fanatics searched out people with heretical ideas, but in particular those who sinned - this could be anything, but especially sex or anything else that the people enjoyed doing."
Even in this country, Muslim women have been murdered for having affairs before or after marriage - as well as if they want a divorce.
Thanks for your apologies - sometimes I really do feel that I have to live up to my avatar! 😉
Love and peace,
Judy
As he just admitted V, that writer was James! That was why I was so disturbed
Hmm, so it was. And it still reads as a tantrum to me, unfortunately.
V