:grouphug: Hello Everyone why i ask this is because i was told today that i should not speak to satan,
i am a spiritulist have been all my life. i am also a psychic medium and healer, a woman asked me what my motive was for attending one of the meetings, i went because my neighbour whos husband is a minister asked me to go along i went because im open to see how they say they have changed, i was asked what my definition of a christian was so i said anybody who is a true christian wouldnt ask that question i told them they were very judgemental, no empathy
and that to me is not a true christian my definition is someone who does no wrong to others treats people as you would want to be treated yourself and help those who need help and a christian would welcome anybody into their home without any discrimination doesnt matter what denomination or creed they are, they told me i didnt know what the word meant so im asking you what your definition of a christian is.
take care
:grouphug: Hello Everyone why i ask this is because i was told today that i should not speak to satan,
i am a spiritulist have been all my life. i am also a psychic medium and healer, a woman asked me what my motive was for attending one of the meetings, i went because my neighbour whos husband is a minister asked me to go along i went because im open to see how they say they have changed, i was asked what my definition of a christian was so i said anybody who is a true christian wouldnt ask that question i told them they were very judgemental, no empathy
and that to me is not a true christian my definition is someone who does no wrong to others treats people as you would want to be treated yourself and help those who need help and a christian would welcome anybody into their home without any discrimination doesnt matter what denomination or creed they are, they told me i didnt know what the word meant so im asking you what your definition of a christian is.take care
With all due respect, and not be judgemental, but I do believe you do not know what a Christian is. In sum, Christ makes a Christian a Christian. Going to church does not make a person a Christian. A special ceremony can't do it. And nobody can be a Christian by trying to be a good person. Only Jesus Christ can make a person a Christian:
John 1:12-13 says "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Only our acceptance of Jesus Christ perfect sacrifice for our sins on the cross makes us a Christian, and our admitting that we are in need of His payment for our sins. Certainly doing good works and sacrificing for others is evidence that you have faith in God, but it doesn't save you..only Christ can do that and your acceptance of Him.
:grouphug:my definition is someone who does no wrong to others treats people as you would want to be treated yourself and help those who need help and a christian would welcome anybody into their home without any discrimination doesnt matter what denomination or creed they are
Now you see, that's my definition of a Pagan, not a Christian. But a Pagan won't do these things because of the teachings of a holy man. A Pagan will do these things simply because it's the right thing to do.
To me, a Christian is someone whose life is dedicated to the love of God and his son Jesus Christ. They live their life according to the teachings and principles of Jesus Christ and they do not deviate from that, although God forgives all sins and transgression as long as you truly repent. Christians accept Jesus Christ in their lives and his sacrifice for them. They hold God above everything, even family. A true Christian treats everyone as a child of God, created by God in his own image. And they judge no-one (Matthew Ch7 - Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged. And with what measure ye meet, it shall be measured unto you again).
Which sadly means, that I don't know a single true Christian.
I like Lynne's description:
To me, a Christian is someone whose life is dedicated to the love of God and his son Jesus Christ. They live their life according to the teachings and principles of Jesus Christ and they do not deviate from that, although God forgives all sins and transgression as long as you truly repent. Christians accept Jesus Christ in their lives and his sacrifice for them. They hold God above everything, even family. A true Christian treats everyone as a child of God, created by God in his own image. And they judge no-one (Matthew Ch7 - Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged. And with what measure ye meet, it shall be measured unto you again).
Which sadly means, that I don't know a single true Christian.
Oh there are true Christians about Lynne! I'm sorry you haven't met any yet! I'm also sad to hear about your experience Blackcrow. Perhaps they should have explained where they were coming from, rather than just condemn you.
I also like this 1828 Webster’s definition (particularly no 3):
CHRISTIAN, n.
1. A believer in the religion of Christ.
2. A professor of his belief in the religion of Christ.
3. A real disciple of Christ; one who believes in the truth of the Christian religion, and studies to follow the example, and obey the precepts, of Christ; a believer in Christ who is characterized by real piety.
But to me, the clearest description of what Christianity is (and therefore, what a Christian should be) are found in these words of Mary Baker Eddy’s: (the word “man” is the generic sense, including men and women)
Christianity is the summons of divine Love for man to be Christlike--to emulate the words and the works of our great Master. (Miscellany p 148)
To me, that includes healing the sick through the understanding of man’s spiritual nature, as demonstrated by Jesus and the early Christians.
And what does it mean to be “Christlike”? Again, I love her description of Jesus in the chapter [url]Atonement and Eucharist[/url] in Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures: (I'm including Webster's definitions again)
Through the magnitude of his human life, he demonstrated the divine Life.
MAGNITUDE: Greatness; grandeur.
Out of the amplitude of his pure affection, he defined Love.
AMPLITUDE: Largeness; extent of means or power; abundance; sufficiency.
With the affluence of Truth, he vanquished error.
AFFLUENCE: A flowing to, abundance of riches; great plenty, wealth.
The world acknowledged not his righteousness, seeing it not; but earth received the harmony his glorified example introduced.
Who is ready to follow his teaching and example? All must sooner or later plant themselves in Christ, the true idea of God. (Science and Health p 54)
Love and peace,
Judy
I was interested in this title for a post and what the answers would be, I knew Principled would make a meaningful contribution, as always
tigress
Thank you Tigress! :1kis:
It's a brilliant question to ask and we'll get lots of answers (and readers)
Love and peace,
Judy
With all due respect, and not be judgemental, but I do believe you do not know what a Christian is. In sum, Christ makes a Christian a Christian. Going to church does not make a person a Christian. A special ceremony can't do it. And nobody can be a Christian by trying to be a good person. Only Jesus Christ can make a person a Christian:
John 1:12-13 says "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Only our acceptance of Jesus Christ perfect sacrifice for our sins on the cross makes us a Christian, and our admitting that we are in need of His payment for our sins. Certainly doing good works and sacrificing for others is evidence that you have faith in God, but it doesn't save you..only Christ can do that and your acceptance of Him.
Hi, ace88,
You sound like a polite and reasonable person, so you'll understand that my thoughts about this are also polite and not personal, I'm sure.
But in reading your words, two things came to my mind. One was that - I forget the exact figure - but there are, from academic study, several tens of thousands of churches and sects and movements who call themselves Christian, some differing from another only in the interpretation of a few lines of the Bible, but others differing widely. None of those can hold a torch up, and say, "We are the true Christians, the other 75,000 churches are not". So no-one from one Christian form of belief can disabuse others from also feeling that they are Christian, no matter how much they differ.
Academically, mainly from Christian academics, a "Christian" cannot be defined so much from practice and rules of life, but the one common factor Christians hold in common is a belief in "the Jesus story" i.e. that he lived, and lived generally as believed - but interpretations of his words differ widely, as do how to "be" or live as a Christian.
The second thought was that I picked up a junior-level text-book into my hands the other day in the library. Intended for teenagers, it was on the subject of fundamentalism, (in any religion), it's title, and explained what fundamentalism is - basically those who take their scripture entirely literally, word-for-word, despite any rational and scholarly examination of the texts which may point to or even prove that the wording is sometimes allegory (the Garden of Eden?), and politicised and changed by later copyists, that the Bible is a collection of books partly OK'd from political expediancy, not from truth, from other texts, Jesus disappeared and was probably in the Far East between the ages of 12 and 29 (a long time!), that there are non-Biblical gospels which are authentic and tell us a lot more about Jesus' sayings, including deeper, longer versions of the four gospels known to the early Church Fathers but not intended for the masses, etc., etc.
Have you read the remaining fragments of the secret Gospel of Mark?
So, not being personal, but your post sounded somewhat like it - maybe - fundamentalism isn't very strong ground to stand upon, for any who choose to do so.
V
With all due respect, and not be judgemental, but I do believe you do not know what a Christian is.
With the same respect, I would say likewise to you.
In sum, Christ makes a Christian a Christian. Going to church does not make a person a Christian. A special ceremony can't do it. And nobody can be a Christian by trying to be a good person. Only Jesus Christ can make a person a Christian:
John 1:12-13 says "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Only our acceptance of Jesus Christ perfect sacrifice for our sins on the cross makes us a Christian, and our admitting that we are in need of His payment for our sins. Certainly doing good works and sacrificing for others is evidence that you have faith in God, but it doesn't save you..only Christ can do that and your acceptance of Him.
Ok, I'm not a big follower of the bible or Christianity, although I do look up things and try to understand them from a point of view that they are wise teachings from wise people. I've just dug out a couple of versions from the bookshelf and looked up the same verses in those...
John 1:10-13
The Word was in the world, and though God made the world through him, yet the world did not recognize, him. He came to his own country, but his own people did not receive him. Some, however, did receive him and believed in him; so he gave the the right to become God's children. They did not become Gods children by natural means, that is by being born as the children of a human father; God himself was their Father.
I won't quote the other (from the Gideons) as it's very similar.
So what is this actually saying. Does it say that it is Christ who makes people Christian? I can't see that anywhere, and to say such a thing would imply that Jesus is still living an bestows an honour upon such people if they are worthy of being Christian, or that's the way you have made it sound.
My definition of Chritianity would be anyone who lives a life where they follow the words of God that were taught by Jesus Christ, and those teachings are presented in various forms of Bibles, Old testements, New testements etc.
Because the Bible in the west has been translated from old scriptures from the East it will obviously have undergone issues in translation and meanings and interpretations will only be as close to what could be determined at the time of writing. No matter how studious and scholarly the people were who carried out the writings of the bibles, there will always be different translations. Even if we go back to the Upanishads which are believed to be the source of wisdom teachings for almost all the old religions (you can see the Bible, the Koran and even Buddhist teachings in what it says), there is still the fact that the Upanishads as we read them are translated from old sanskrit texts, by scholars and people who believe they know the true meaning. It is still however open to interpretation.
The paragraph from John quoted above by us both, would seem to me to interpret as saying that a person is not born a follower of God, it's not something that is naturally inherent in a person, but it is a following of the words of God that, if the person aims to live by those words, this is what makes them a child of God. Those words were taught by Jesus Christ and if someone is following those same teachings then they can be said to be Christian. To me the interpretation is simplicity in itself, not controlling, not judgmental, just kind and open words to welcome all who wish to follow the words of God. It does seem that some churches/preachers etc. will take literal meaning of some (if not all) of the words, even take some things out of context and use those as a means to control others and tell them what they should believe, and this is when we get what Venetian has highlighted as fundamentalism. This is not how I would see as being the Christian way. Whatever happened to loving thy neighbour, accepting that people make mistakes (sin) and offering them forgiveness and a supporting hand. I believe there is no control in the true following of Gods words (Christianity).
All Love and Reiki Hugs
Only our acceptance of Jesus Christ perfect sacrifice for our sins on the cross makes us a Christian, and our admitting that we are in need of His payment for our sins
Further to those words, I find that from untold years of studying various spiritual paths, and interpretations of them, "following Jesus Christ" means to outpicture and fully demonstrate and to be the Christ within yourself which all are, and have as potential, and also as our ultimate reality. Jesus was one person who became the Christ (or Buddha), and all of us not only can but must and will eventually do the same. Why not shorten the days until we accomplish this?
I'd also put out the idea that in the English translations of the Bible, which are not at all accurate in all ways, "sin" actually means negative karma. We are not born "in sin", but born (the first time 🙂 ) with free will, and over lifetimes we have created bad karma which we need to balance.
Karma goes hand in hand with the concept of reincarnation, and it is basically explicit even in the New Testament that Jesus and the disciples did believe in reincarnation - hence, by extension, in karma.
Once accepting reincarnation and karma, we realise that our "salvation" lies within our own day-to-day actions, words, and even thoughts, and there is no vicarious atonement (that we are all "saved" no matter what we do in this life, because someone was crucified 2,000 years ago).
That IMHO is a grave misinterpretation of scripture - but an attractive one to some, as it frees us of the need to strive toward our own betterment. Someone's done it for us, as a mother does for an infant - and that just is not what Jesus actually says if you truly read the Gospels, canonical or otherwise.
V
Further to those words, I find that from untold years of studying various spiritual paths, and interpretations of them, "following Jesus Christ" means to outpicture and fully demonstrate and to be the Christ within yourself which all are, and have as potential, and also as our ultimate reality. Jesus was one person who became the Christ (or Buddha), and all of us not only can but must and will eventually do the same. Why not shorten the days until we accomplish this?
I'd also put out the idea that in the English translations of the Bible, which are not at all accurate in all ways, "sin" actually means negative karma. We are not born "in sin", but born (the first time 🙂 ) with free will, and over lifetimes we have created bad karma which we need to balance.
Karma goes hand in hand with the concept of reincarnation, and it is basically explicit even in the New Testament that Jesus and the disciples did believe in reincarnation - hence, by extension, in karma.
Once accepting reincarnation and karma, we realise that our "salvation" lies within our own day-to-day actions, words, and even thoughts, and there is no vicarious atonement (that we are all "saved" no matter what we do in this life, because someone was crucified 2,000 years ago).
That IMHO is a grave misinterpretation of scripture - but an attractive one to some, as it frees us of the need to strive toward our own betterment. Someone's done it for us, as a mother does for an infant - and that just is not what Jesus actually says if you truly read the Gospels, canonical or otherwise.
V
While there are differences in many Christian churches, they all agree on Christ's life, death, and resurrection, His payment for our sins, and the fact that He is God. There are some newer churches that perhaps claim to be Christian but teaching anything but the Gospel.
As for the Gospel of Mark, I believe it is a forgery. Morton Smith announced this at the annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature in 1960, announcing that he had discovered this two years prior. So he waited two years to tell everyone about his great discovery. Then it was not published until 1973. No one besides Smith saw the letter. Jacob Neusner, who knew professor Smith, described it as the "forgery of the century". The epistle apparently and conveniently lended a measure of support to Smith's controversial contention that Jesus was a magician and perhaps even a homosexual.
We are still unsure whether the letter derives from Clement of Alexandria or not, as there are a lot of differences in substance as compared to the rest of Clement's writing. The letter presupposes a conception of the Church which is much more strongly institutionalized than the rest of Clement's writing. The description of the Carpocratians in the 3rd book of Stromateis is very different than the rest of his writings also. H. Von Campenhauses says regarding the authenticity "'Not only the manner of the transmission speaks against it, but also the description of a church archive containing secret writings, the recommendation of a falsehood to be fortified by a false oath on polemical grounds, the idea of two stages of secret teaching of Jesus, and the report of Mark's migration to Alexandria contradict everything we know about Clement".
Clement himself is quite questionable as to whether we should believe anything he says. Clement quite gullibly accepts the Preaching of Peter and the Apocalypse of Peter as produced by the Apostle Peter (cf. Strom. 2.15.68; 6.5.39-41; Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 6.14.1). He does not hesitate to ascribe to Jesus various sayings found in the apocryphal Gospel of the Egyptians and Gospel of the Hebrews. Thus, Clement's claims about Mark's travel and writing activities may rest on nothing more than pious legend and spurious reports, while the 'secret Gospel of Mark' from which he quotes could be nothing more than a second-century apocryphon
But Clement apparently accepted that the text he quotes (though not the Carpocratians' adaptation of it) did in fact derive from Mark. The relevance of Smith's discovery to our subject thus depends ultimately on how much reliance may be placed on Clements judgmenton this matter. And here a cautious verdict should be taken, for Clement's other writings show him to be both a lover of ideas of secrecy, esoteric teaching, mystical experiences and the like, and also much more open than most patristic writers to accept the autheticity of puportedly apostolistic writings such as the Preaching of Peter, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Gospel according to the Hebrews, and the Gospel of the Egyptians.' ...Keen as Clement was on opposing what he regarded as heretical, he seems to have been uncritical even to the point of gullability in accepting material which chimed in with his own predilections.
The raising of the young man of Bethany is too evidently based--and clumsily based at that--on the Johannine story of the raising of Lazarus for us to regard it as in any sense an independent Marcan counterpart to the Johaninne story (not to speak of our regarding it as a source of the Johannine story)."
So we have a manuscript where its existance is in doubt, where we don't know if it was written by Clement, and where if it was, Clement was not a reliable source of data. The passages dealing with Jesus seem to be constructed from the original gospels.
IF, for the purposes of deeper clarification, Jesus was a homosexual magician (which I don't think I believe, but have an open mind...) then would that somehow invalidate the moral worth of his life, his healing, his love, his teachings? His sanctity even?
If so - how?
"By your fruits ye shall be judged" - i.e. by your behaviour & its consequences, NOT by any labels stuck upon you by prejudice or hate.
This raises very important questions about people's judgemental assumptions, imho.
I believe Jesus was as Go(o)d as we get, in intention, word & deed.
But I'm not into murder or blood-sacrifice to manmade sadistic, vengeful 'gods' who are somehow 'pleased' or have their vengeful 'wrath' appeased by the smell of blood (as in many OT stories.)
To answer the question, a "Christian" SHOULD be anyone who follows Jesus' teachings & example of unprejudiced acceptance, healing & Love and aspires to develop and BECOME the "Christ Consciousness" themselves.
But technically, it means someone who adheres to the Catholic Creed, as defined in the 4th century AD by political men at the Council of Nicea, and which adds ideas not taught by Jesus at all. (Doctrines of Original Sin, etc, which I see as intellectually unsupportable.)
Blessings of deepening understanding to us all! - Starshower.
The 'homosexual magician' remark referred to a quotation in the previous post. I have no truck with this Morton Smith person, but used that as an example of label-pinning being used detrimentally.
Jesus himself, of course, was not a Christian. Dogmatic Christianity, with a laid-down creed, was born nearly 400 years after he left thie earth for a while (though not in Spirit.)
I totally, utterly LOVE his 2 equal Great Commandments: to love the Divine with all our heart, mind, soul & strength ... and to love others as we love ourselves.
These, & He, are great imo.
But I am no longer a "Christian" because I wish to dissociate from all the wars, tortures, murders, inquisitions, arms-dealings, slave-trading, abuses, prejudices & oppression committed under that banner & in that name for 2,000 years 🙁
:hug: Well i thought this topic would give lots of replys,
and it certenly has all differ but all make a point .
i was told this morning that when i went to the meeting that i opend a porthole of evil ,so i asked why they should think that , there reply was because you are a spiritulist, how narrow minded can some people be is beyond me,
they said they had to cleanse the house because there was a feeling of abuse there, so i asked how they knew it was a feeling of abuse and they said because i could feel it and sence it , i asked how they could say things like that if they didnt believe in spiritulism, thet said i could tell by my spirit,
so i said we are all spirit, all our bodies are is a form of transport for our spirit ,i think i will stick to saying i am proud to be a spiritulist,and let them get on with it dont you?
take care
The 'homosexual magician' remark referred to a quotation in the previous post. I have no truck with this Morton Smith person, but used that as an example of label-pinning being used detrimentally.
Jesus himself, of course, was not a Christian. Dogmatic Christianity, with a laid-down creed, was born nearly 400 years after he left thie earth for a while (though not in Spirit.)
I totally, utterly LOVE his 2 equal Great Commandments: to love the Divine with all our heart, mind, soul & strength ... and to love others as we love ourselves.
These, & He, are great imo.
But I am no longer a "Christian" because I wish to dissociate from all the wars, tortures, murders, inquisitions, arms-dealings, slave-trading, abuses, prejudices & oppression committed under that banner & in that name for 2,000 years 🙁
Star shower, that last paragraph to me is a cop out answer. Certainly things have been done wrong in the name of Christianity in the past, and perhaps those people weren't following the Bible when they did those things...BUT...Hitler, Stalin, and the wicked Chinese governments killed more people than all of these religious wars combined, and they based their beliefs in evolution, not Christianity. Evil people will constantly be trying to kill people, whether through atheism or the guise of pretending to follow a religion..they will use whatever they can use to fit their evil desires.
I disagree. And playing head-count games with suffering misses my point entirely.
I feel that whereas 'evil' has been done by many regimes & millions of individuals, like the ones to which you refer, they were not attributed to any religion.
There is an enormous ethical difference.
Yes, there has been horrendous human suffering inflicted by humans on each other, across time & across the globe. Tragically. Unbelievably tragically.
But when a religion is hijacked & so distorted as to commit such terrible, inhumane, large-scale, organised, outrageous cruelties, (like slavery) it is a far worse scenario, for it gives apparent respectability to heinous crimes and allows the unthinking masses to continue their worst cruelties unchecked by any higher principles.
Religions like Christianity, which theoretically refer & appeal to Mankind's highest, most idealistic & tender emotional & spiritual aspirations, have most horribly violated & abused the trust of people's hearts & souls. Mostly for sheer greed - at the expense of the poor - & for power.
Not facing this glaring anomaly is the cop-out, imho.
Countries which start wars, produce & trade in arms, abuse immigrants, children & the weak and cause oppression ... and which traded in human slaves - & still, within living memory, segregated, abused & looked down on people they saw as different, inferior (or even sub-human) claim(ed) to be Christian! LOUDLY. THAT is what makes it worse!!!
In many 3rd-world countries the very word "Christian" strikes fear into the hearts of poor peasants who only associate that word with bombs, and mines, and hostile foreign soldiers.
And so, after much deep thought, I dissociate myself from their 'evil' attitude and their banner of "Christianity", which is such a blasphemy and travesty of the Christ.
Enough. I feel extremely outraged now, and angry. And that is not right.
May true Goodness and Unconditional Love flow around & within us all.
Bright blessings - Starshower.
PS - A) All those atrocities were not just in the past, but are ongoing.
B) Large parts of the Bible describe and encourage such behaviour! It is rife with murders, war-mongering, blood-sacrifices, incest, rape, bribery, slavery ... most of it sanctioned & encouraged by 'god'.
So the perpetrators most certainly were / are "following the Bible."
But perhaps you haven't read it.
I did, as a child (was totally traumatised) and again as an adult (ditto.)
Jesus re-thought & re-taught the concept of Divinity. The erstwhile sadistic, irrational, hate-filled, insecure tribal god of most of the OT(but not all - Light began to dawn around the second Isiah) was replaced by Jesus by a totally new concept & experience of God as total Goodness and Love.
But when a religion is hijacked & so distorted as to commit such terrible, inhumane, large-scale, organised, outrageous cruelties, (like slavery) it is a far worse scenario, for it gives apparent respectability to heinous crimes and allows the unthinking masses to continue their worst cruelties unchecked by any higher principles.
Countries which start wars, produce & trade in arms, abuse immigrants, children & the weak and cause oppression ... and which traded in human slaves - & still, within living memory, segregated, abused & looked down on people they saw as different, inferior (or even sub-human) claim(ed) to be Christian! LOUDLY. THAT is what makes it worse!!!
In many 3rd-world countries the very word "Christian" strikes fear into the hearts of poor peasants who only associate that word with bombs, and mines, and hostile foreign soldiers.
And so, after much deep thought, I dissociate myself from their 'evil' attitude and their banner of "Christianity", which is such a blasphemy and travesty of the Christ.
Enough. I feel extremely outraged now, and angry. And that is not right.
Sounds like you got into a bad space or place? There's no need for a forum thread over the net to get to us. 🙂 If being Christian means anything, I guess it includes peace and peace within ourselves consciously mastered. 🙂
The thing about Jesus being a "homosexual magician" is rubbish BTW, just to be very academic about it. :p It's just the response of some to reading the secret Gospel of Mark, which has Jesus going through a night-long initiation ceremony with a young male convert. The actual words don't IMO hint even at homosexuality at all - it's just an idea that people who don't like Christ or Christianity have picked up on, making up their own scenario.
V
Thanks for your detailed post, ace. Sorry - I think we hadn't met over the forums before, and parts of your earlier wording smacked of true fundamentalism. You evidently are not "a fundy" 🙂 as such people tend never to know the slightest thing about the academic issues which you appear really to have a grasp of. Thanks too for the heads-up on the secret Mark Gospel. Of course, it never was possible to actually 'prove' its authenticity, for how do you do that?
Mind you:
While there are differences in many Christian churches, they all agree on Christ's life, death, and resurrection, His payment for our sins, and the fact that He is God. There are some newer churches that perhaps claim to be Christian but teaching anything but the Gospel.
The vast majority of Christians would agree with that, but if others state that they are also Christian, who is to declare that they are not? For example, a sticking point for some would be that, yes, Jesus was God. Right, agreed. But ... IMHO so are we all, and he was not special. He was a wayshower to demonstrate what we all should, can, and will be. We are all Christs in the making. Jesus' mission was to show that, to show what we can all be.
The alternative belief is that which has held the religion back for 1600 years or more: that we are born in "original sin" la-di-da, and need the vicarious atonement. To me and others, that's a cop out from our own need to master ourselves. I know many who have "accepted Jesus as my saviour", and some are hardly people whose moral lives I'd care to emulate. 😮 They are lost and getting nowhere, spiritually.
IMHO Jesus would have agreed. It's there in the Bible if you look. Any reference to us needing to reach God "through me" by Jesus is allegorical: he means that every man and woman reaches God through "me" - being the Christ speaking through him. That we reach God by becoming our own Christ Presence.
Fundamentalist interpretations of scripture are clearly in error, such as disavowing reincarnation, which many Christians fully believed in until Nicea, and even Jesus stated that John the Baptist was Elijah "come again". (IMHO Jesus was previously Elijah's disciple, Elisha, though I can't prove it - just throwing the thought out. 🙂 )
V
PS - A) All those atrocities were not just in the past, but are ongoing.
B) Large parts of the Bible describe and encourage such behaviour! It is rife with murders, war-mongering, blood-sacrifices, incest, rape, bribery, slavery ... most of it sanctioned & encouraged by 'god'.
So the perpetrators most certainly were / are "following the Bible."
But perhaps you haven't read it.I did, as a child (was totally traumatised) and again as an adult (ditto.)
Jesus re-thought & re-taught the concept of Divinity. The erstwhile sadistic, irrational, hate-filled, insecure tribal god of most of the OT(but not all - Light began to dawn around the second Isiah) was replaced by Jesus by a totally new concept & experience of God as total Goodness and Love.
Starshower, rape and slavery were santioned and encouraged by God? Come on now. Slavery was spoke of as a fact of the time period, but also, many slaves back then were actually treated almost like family members, or like an employee...it wasn't slavery like we had in America before the Civil War. If the Bible had truly been followed, slavery would have been outlawed before it was. The Bible teaches were are ALL created in "the image of God" and speaks against favoritism. Rape was never sanctioned by God. Did God use the Israelites in the Old Testament to make examples of people who laughed at God and worshipped idols? Yes. But we are under the new covenant in the New Testament.
Incest was sanctioned by God for awhile, but how else would you expect the earth to get populated from nothing? Back then, it didn't lead to diseases, etc and there was nothing immoral about it.
What atrocities are ongoing? If you look at the Christians in America, many of these are the people helping the poor in the inner cities, teaching at the poorer public schools, sacrificing their lives in the military, etc. Are there bad examples of people who claim to be Christians? Certainly, as there are of every religion.
Incest was sanctioned by God for awhile, but how else would you expect the earth to get populated from nothing?
Oh, you mean that you believe that there were once only two people, Adam and Eve? (That's allegory, not literal, for goodness' sake.) Or that Noah and his Ark were all that survived the Flood? (When IMHO Atlantis went down.) Loads of people survived that circa 10,500 B.C.
Oops, so we are talking fundamentalism after all? ... 🙁 That's rather sad, if so.
Fundamentalism, lacking rational insight , is a disease which leads ultimately to war, death, and the separation of people who should be dear brothers and sisters in this world.
V
Fundamentalism, lacking rational insight , is a disease which leads ultimately to war, death, and the separation of people who should be dear brothers and sisters in this world.
AKA the real AntiChrist:p
Sorry
:hidesbehindsofa:
x
Hi Venetian.
"The thing about Jesus being a "homosexual magician" is rubbish BTW, just to be very academic about it. :p"
But of course! Obviously. But I was making a point you seem to have missed totally: namely, that those epithets alone should not be seen as condemnations, nor as invalidating someone's goodness and wisdom.
If there are any Witches, Wiccans, Magicians or homosexual people on this site - my point is for you, guys! Against implied prejudice.
I'm not going to trawl through ancient texts to quote examples of all the horrors I described in my previous posts. They are there, in black & white, in many different translations, for anyone interested to read.
I agree, V, that feeling upset & angry about injustice, and hurt by others' sufferings is not a good place to be.
But it is sometimes neccessary, as a moral spur to help effect change. And to stand up and be counted. Jesus was angry at the Pharisees on occasion.
Feeling hurt & angry isn't a good place to dwell - but imo is essential to having a moral conscience.
It is closely followed by asking oneself: "What can I do about it, in my small way? How can I help to flag up wrongs and encourage righting them, in our hearts & in the world?" Tough questions, but vital ones, for the Good of all.
Others' injustices & sufferings diminish us all in my view, since I believe we are all interconnected in Spirit.
I hope & pray for Peace with Justice, Understanding with Empathy (the emotional imagination & identification with the feelings of others) and Healing in mind, heart & soul - in Love.
(No more from me on this thread, since if I haven't been understood yet, I doubt whether I shall be, and I don't want strife. Many do not have the eyes or the will to see. Goodbye & Godspeed.)
Fundamentalism, lacking rational insight , is a disease which leads ultimately to war, death, and the separation of people who should be dear brothers and sisters in this world.
Indeed. Well said.
Oh, you mean that you believe that there were once only two people, Adam and Eve? (That's allegory, not literal, for goodness' sake.) Or that Noah and his Ark were all that survived the Flood? (When IMHO Atlantis went down.) Loads of people survived that circa 10,500 B.C.
Oops, so we are talking fundamentalism after all? ... 🙁 That's rather sad, if so.
Fundamentalism, lacking rational insight , is a disease which leads ultimately to war, death, and the separation of people who should be dear brothers and sisters in this world.
V
That's generalizing, I believe. Islamic fundamentalism is far different than Christian fundamentalism. You don't see Christians blowing themselves up and others with homemade bombs, do you? Sending women and children into the street to blow themselves up and others? Where in the Bible does it say to violently force your religion on others, or to hate others? It doesn't. The true Koran, unfortunately, teaches some bad things, such as hating "Christians and Jews." There is no concept of jihad in Christianity. And to be honest, Venetian, there are different levels of fundamentalism. Are there some extreme Christian fundamenalists? Some. But I wouldn't put myself in that category. I don't hate anyone. Do I believe the Bible is the infallible word of God? Yes. And yes, I believe in creation, the Flood, Adam and Eve, etc...I think you can judge the rightness or wrongness of an action, or its morality, without judging the person as being a bad person. I think homosexuality is morally wrong, but that doesn't mean I believe homosexuals are bad people (for instance). Same for those who commit adultery, etc..And while I may try to live a life that is pleasing to God, I'm a sinner also, just like everyone else. The funny thing is, I am sure all the people on this forum believe and go on about how it wrong to judge people, but I am quite sure you judge Christian fundamentalists...
The true Koran, unfortunately, teaches some bad things, such as hating "Christians and Jews."
Ouch! not so fast there.
The true koran does not teach anybody to hate Christians or Jews. There have been some re-translations and re-prints of the koran in some countries that do say these things but I think you'll find most followers of the true koran will say that these are false teachings.
Perhaps a little more care is needed before making such generalization? 😉
All Love and Reiki Hugs
Personally I think that any faith or religion can get tottally mis-repsented as soon as it can be used as a means of control, it's wo/man thats at fault for 'using' it, not ancient books IMHO...any angery/greedy/ agressive act carried out under the name of any God is pure human error
oppps
Sending women and children into the street to blow themselves up and others? Where in the Bible does it say to violently force your religion on others, or to hate others?
someone tell these guys that
The funny thing is, I am sure all the people on this forum believe and go on about how it wrong to judge people, but I am quite sure you judge Christian fundamentalists...
Judgment vs discernment (sp)...there's something in the bible about how we Judge others we too shall be Judged...to me it means about being fair and sure about whats right...and ultimatly what isn't right
Love
Amy
xxx
Ouch! not so fast there.
The true koran does not teach anybody to hate Christians or Jews. There have been some re-translations and re-prints of the koran in some countries that do say these things but I think you'll find most followers of the true koran will say that these are false teachings.
Perhaps a little more care is needed before making such generalization? 😉
All Love and Reiki Hugs
Actually, I still disagree. We had 3 former Muslims come to our church and speak to us. One from Morocco, one from Albania, and one from Lebanon. (I could tell you some stories about things that happened to them for questioning their faiths - lucky to be alive.) They said what most of Muslims followed today is "folk Islam". It's not true Islam, but it is Islam kind of reformed or neutered to meet today's standards. But the problem with Islam is, that anything Mohammed says is thought of as divinely inspired, pretty much equal with the Koran. And Mohammed once compared women to dogs. Mohammed only preached peace when he was in a position of weakness, but when he was in a position of power, his opinion changed. True Islam does teach jihad and to hate Christians and Jews, but fortunately Islam has had some modifications toward popular culture, even if they aren't true Islam.
Personally I think that any faith or religion can get tottally mis-repsented as soon as it can be used as a means of control, it's wo/man thats at fault for 'using' it, not ancient books IMHO...any angery/greedy/ agressive act carried out under the name of any God is pure human error
oppps
someone tell these guys that
Judgment vs discernment (sp)...there's something in the bible about how we Judge others we too shall be Judged...to me it means about being fair and sure about whats right...and ultimatly what isn't right
Love
Amy
xxx
By training Christians to be warriors, she is not talking about PHYSICAL fighting. She is preparing them for spiritual warfare and for taking stands for their faith. She wants them to go to Islamic countries and not to be afraid about speaking the truth about the gospel. Regardless of whether you agree with it, nowhere does it advocate physical violence or is that even a part of the training. For you to even compare that to Islamic fundamentalism or jihad is ridiculous, in my opinion.
You have to read what the WHOLE BIBLE says about judging and not just one verse. If you go on to read the rest of the passage where it says "do not judge", it answers the question why. It says not to judge because you yourself do the same things wrong. It then says to take the speck out of your own eye (clean up your life), so you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye. I believe Jesus says in another verse to "judge righteous judgement". He obviously makes a judgement when he kicks people out of God's temple - people who had made it into a shopping mall. He also tells the prostitute, while treating her with love to "Go and sin no more."
It then says to take the speck out of your own eye (clean up your life), so you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye.
Perhaps not just 'clean up your life'..perhaps so you can 'open your eyes, clear away the 'muck' so you can see fully' and see cleary beyond the 'speck', without predijice (ooo sp:o), glory and fear...oh and hate...and while you're at it open your hearts and mind too...just what springs to my mind reading your reply
By training Christians to be warriors, she is not talking about PHYSICAL fighting. She is preparing them for spiritual warfare and for taking stands for their faith. She wants them to go to Islamic countries and not to be afraid about speaking the truth about the gospel. Regardless of whether you agree with it, nowhere does it advocate physical violence or is that even a part of the training. For you to even compare that to Islamic fundamentalism or jihad is ridiculous, in my opinion.
Well obviously we're not going to agree, but all I can see in this sort of attitude is people/children being brought up to deal with misunderstanding and hate with MORE misunderstanding and hate, instilled in them through fear....what happens to 'Love thy neighbor'...it's a pitty these kids arn't taught tolerance, respect, understanding, love🙁
anyway...I'll shush now
xxxx
"Open your eyes"
I have always loved those words....
for they have such potential.
But today I feel that these words "Open your eyes" need more....
Perhaps this might be better?....
Allow my eyes to be open
That way it would be me making a request for myself if it felt right
and then it wouldn't be another telling me what to do?
I just know that Love is not behind a closed door...
I remember when I used to read tarot cards when I was younger, I found that it was a good ice breaker and could allow a deeper sharing. Sometimes, the living just doesn't allow for a special time to talk unless we make time.
One day I was told that the tarot cards were the devil's paste cards. I had never heard anything like that before, but because I respected and loved my friend I put them away and didn't use them again.
But, if I was where I am now, I would not just have put them away because of what someone said, I would have pondered the situation and asked for myself... is this right for me?
Because sometimes the words of others can clarify our seeing.
Black Crow, you aked for a definition of a Christian.
I don't think I can, yet. But I am thinking about it.
This is my today question....
Can you be a Christian if you have never heard of the name of Christ or the words of Christianity?