What Christianity has to say about psychcis

But Daz, that's exactly my point. How do you know that he wasn't simply reading your thoughts?

Hi Judy .

On a psychic level everything is readable to a degree . In a way our individual universe is contained within our auric field . Psychics can tap into this field and simply relay whats on/of our mind . It is rare I would say that a psychic can pick up on our guides simply because the sitter is aware of them also .

The main thing that separates the psychic from the medium is that a psychic cannot have a conversation with an imprint of the mind that is memory based .

In order to have a two way conversation there needs to be two individuals . In this instance one would be the medium and one would be the spirit communicator .

The medium knows when a thought comes from spirit and when something is intuitively picked up . Its not only the thoughts that they hear it is the presence of the spirit that they can feel .

Some spirit communicators (ancestors/friends/guides) are unknown to the sitter . If the medium just reads the sitters mind then this type of communication could never happen because the sitter does not even (consciously) know ..

At times the sitters can convey what a medium has said to other living relatives and have what the mediums said confirmed .

So answer me this ..

How can a mind reader speak of spirit ancestors that the sitter has no memory of?

x daz x

If the psychic/medium is adhering to the law then they should be advertising themselves as "For entertainment purposes only", and therefore there is no comeback because, by law, they are not providing a lawfully recognised service that you should base your own life decisions on... thus, legally speaking, the onus is on the sitter to decide for themselves what is 'right' or not about what they're told.

Of course it's different for GP's, Solicitors etc. as they are providing a service which is legally binding in that they should be providing you with the truth to the best of their ability within their training/skills and legal requirements.

So, the comparison is a bit difficult to make. When the law changed to say that such psychics etc. could only advertise themselves as 'for entertainment purposes' they were so much up in arms about it, because they said it was going to ruin their business... yet in truth, it's actually offered them greater protection because people cannot claim against them for mis-information if they do get it wrong.

I personally don't use psychics or mediums etc. myself as I've never come across one I would say I could categorically know to be telling the truth. In my understanding of things, the truth is already within our Self, so if I want to access that truth, I can seek the answers within Self... either through intuition, meditation, or doing my own card reading. That's always worked well for me.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Giles,

Yes - you're right. The fact is that most psychcis DO NOT claim it is for entertainment purposes only. Only companies do say this but tbh you're right again in that it protects the psychics not the customers. Yes - there are people who visit a psychic at a fair or for a laugh but I know that all the people I know of (and psychics have told me about) have visited them because they have a problem. Depending on the size of the problem can make people vulnerable. So from my point of view the law does not really protect the customer in fact it just gives psychics a nice little loophole. But that is the problem here in the UK - we have too few laws (compared to many other developed countries) to protect customers from charlatans, conmen, shoddy workmanship etc.

Hi Giles,

Yes - you're right. The fact is that most psychcis DO NOT claim it is for entertainment purposes only.

Then they are breaking the law.

Only companies do say this but tbh you're right again in that it protects the psychics not the customers. Yes - there are people who visit a psychic at a fair or for a laugh but I know that all the people I know of (and psychics have told me about) have visited them because they have a problem.

Well, yes, absolutely. I can't imagine many people sit with a psychic or tarot reader purely for entertainment, unless they're at blackpool fun fair or whatever. 🙂

Depending on the size of the problem can make people vulnerable. So from my point of view the law does not really protect the customer in fact it just gives psychics a nice little loophole. But that is the problem here in the UK - we have too few laws (compared to many other developed countries) to protect customers from charlatans, conmen, shoddy workmanship etc.

Indeed. But if they haven't stated that it's for entertainment purposes, they you DO have some comeback on them, if it's the fact that you want your money back; as the law is on your side in that case.

And you're right, it's because some people are vulnerable that the charlatens can play on that for their own benefit. It would be better if people learnt to look inside themselves or learnt to do their own readings... but of course, it's up to the individual what they want... and if they want to turn to someone they don't know on the assumption that they will be able to tell them something 'true' then there's little can be done if they fully trust that to be the case.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Giles,

Thanks for this. Maybe it’s the cynic in me but I’m not sure whether the authorities would be up for chasing a psychic who has failed to say that the reading is for “entertainment purposes only”. As I mentioned before, my personal belief it’s a mealy mouthed statement anyway that actually protects the psychic not the customer - as many clients go because they have problems and not for a laugh or just out of interest. I'd also like to point out that many psychcis go against their own company's regulations e.g. giving health advice etc. Another friend of mine (not the one I've already mentioned) contacted a so called reputable psychic company for a reading. During the reading the psychic told her not to take medication prescribed by her GP. Fortunately my friend is an intelligent person so didn't take any notice. She also thought that the psychic was doing the washing up, as that's all she could hear over the phone were plates rattling around and splashing noises :eek:.

At the end of the day the law allows me to set myself up as a psychic even though I have little psychic ability, I can put up a sign saying my readings are for entertainment purposes only, take money from clients who have to pay up front, give a duff reading and forecast things which may/may not come true but hey presto there’s nothing they can do about it. Sadly the law allows this. Society is outraged when they read and hear of people conning people out of their money and savings by providing shoddy services yet this sort of practice is allowed. Personally I would have thought that any genuine psychic or medium would welcome more regulation as they wouldn’t want their good name (and profession) tainted by charlatans. Part of the problem is that, even though as a client you are careful who you choose to have a reading from you can still receive duff readings. I personally have never had a reading that has come true.

I also wanted to add (and I forgot in my last few posts as I was at work) that part of the reason for mentioning a doctor or solicitor was that people would expect to visit one for medical or legal info but if you visit a psychic to get further info about a problem or certain area of your life – then people are aghast.

Needless to say I won’t be visiting a psychic ever again as I and my friend have been too badly hurt in more ways than one. We thought we were being cautious and sensible in having readings from what we believed to be reputable psychics but I have to admit that I’ve been left staggered that these psychics got things so badly wrong – but there you are. It’s a hard lesson learned. I would hate anyone to go through what I have gone through and also what my friend has gone through. I do now believe that the Bible and other faith books have their warnings about psychics and mediums for very good reasons. No doubt there were charlatans practising thousands of years ago as well :rolleyes:.

Hi Judy .

Some spirit communicators (ancestors/friends/guides) are unknown to the sitter . If the medium just reads the sitters mind then this type of communication could never happen because the sitter does not even (consciously) know ..

At times the sitters can convey what a medium has said to other living relatives and have what the mediums said confirmed .

So answer me this ..

How can a mind reader speak of spirit ancestors that the sitter has no memory of?

I respect your beliefs Daz - mine are different. This below makes perfect sense to me:

[COLOR="Blue"]Mortals evolve images of thought. These may appear to the ignorant [uninformed] to be apparitions; but they are mysterious only because it is unusual to see thoughts, though we can always feel their influence. Haunted houses, ghostly voices, unusual noises, and apparitions brought out in dark seances either involve feats by tricksters, or they are images and sounds evolved involuntarily by mortal mind. Seeing is no less a quality of physical sense than feeling. Then why is it more difficult to see a thought than to feel one? Education alone determines the difference. In reality there is none.

Portraits, landscape-paintings, fac-similes of penmanship, peculiarities of expression, recollected sentences, can all be taken from pictorial thought and memory as readily as from objects cognizable by the senses. Mortal mind sees what it believes as certainly as it believes what it sees. It feels, hears, and sees its own thoughts. Pictures are mentally formed before the artist can convey them to canvas. So is it with all material conceptions. Mind-readers perceive these pictures of thought. They copy or reproduce them, even when they are lost to the memory of the mind in which they are discoverable.

It is needless for the thought or for the person holding the transferred picture to be individually and consciously present. Though individuals have passed away, their mental environment remains to be discerned, described, and transmitted. Though bodies are leagues apart and their associations forgotten, their associations float in the general atmosphere of human mind....
The mine knows naught of the emeralds within its rocks; the sea is ignorant of the gems within its caverns, of the corals, of its sharp reefs, of the tall ships that float on its bosom, or of the bodies which lie buried in its sands: yet these are all there. Do not suppose that any mental concept is gone because you do not think of it. The true concept is never lost. The strong impressions produced on mortal mind by friendship or by any intense feeling are lasting, and mind-readers can perceive and reproduce these impressions.

Memory may reproduce voices long ago silent. We have but to close the eyes, and forms rise before us, which are thousands of miles away or altogether gone from physical sight and sense, and this not in dreamy sleep. In our day-dreams we can recall that for which the poet Tennyson expressed the heart’s desire, — "the touch of a vanished hand, And the sound of a voice that is still". The mind may even be cognizant of a present flavor and odor, when no viand touches the palate and no scent salutes the nostrils.
(Science and Health p 86-88 by Mary Baker Eddy)

I respect your beliefs Daz - mine are different. This below makes perfect sense to me:

Mortal mind sees what it believes as certainly as it believes what it sees. It feels, hears, and sees its own thoughts .

I respect your beliefs Judy also .

Whom is the projector and the receiver of such thoughts within the so called mortal mind . When I speak to you / write to you now is it your mortal mind that believes that I am actually saying something and that I am actually writing something . .

The common ground is that it is all mind but if we speak of individuals that are of the mind be it what we would refer to as ‘me’ and ‘you’ that are ‘individuals’ then the physical aspect of that individualism is no different in physical form to that of ‘etheric/spirit’ form .

If two aspects of physical consciousness can relate and confer with each other then two ‘spirits’ can confer and spirit and physical can confer .

On another level if there is one self and one mind then there is only one to think and to read .. tis likened to one speaking to one’s self .

In some respect this is perhaps true but whilst one remains as an individual and can entertain different belief systems it appears as if ‘you’ judy can converse with ‘me’ daz .

[COLOR="Plum"]So what is the difference with two physical individuals conversing without mind reading and a physical ‘medium’ and a spirit ‘person’ conversing without mind reading?? I would love your thoughts on this .

There are differences between the physical and the etheric worlds (within mind) but there is no difference in that one retains their individuality in them both .

Beyond individuality is another story as they say .

x daz x

I

So what is the difference with two physical individuals conversing without mind reading and a physical ‘medium’ and a spirit ‘person’ conversing without mind reading?? I would love your thoughts on this .

There are differences between the physical and the etheric worlds (within mind) but there is no difference in that one retains their individuality in them both .

Beyond individuality is another story as they say .

Hi Daz,

I've removed your plum colour as I could barely see it!

I agree that we retain our iindividuality and our spiritual identity. I also agree that communication goes on all the time between identities in the same realms of consciousness.

But the way I understand it, (and after all, none of us here on HP that I am aware of, has actually had an NDE, so it's in the realm of conjecture) is that after we pass over, there is a plane of consciousness where some individuals can get stuck, perhaps out of fear, (perhaps because they are not ready to let go of the material and all that is familiar), remaining just as material in their thinking as before. It is at this level that if communion is possible at all and going back to the fact that we see and hear what we believe and believe what we see and hear, I honestly don't know if it is possible. But let's say it is, then those "communications" have no great benefit, because the other individual is just as material-minded as they were before they passed. And that is why I believe that the Bible warns against trying to talk to the dead and that we should turn to God instead.

There is though a second death (the Bible speaks of it) and after the individual has spiritually progressed far enough to pass through it, then, communication between individuals from the higher planes of consciousness is impossible with us here, anymore than the butterfly could return to the caterpillar.

The final stage is when all vestige of materiality disappears and we fully understand and demonstrate that there is only one Mind and one Spirit.

But the one Mind, God, can and does communicate all the time with Its creation - the spiritual identity that is our real selfhood. These angel messages, spiritual intuitions, can only bless, only bring healing, purity, spiritual uplift and understanding, peace, enlightenment, protection, comfort and joy. What does not bring blessing and harmony into our lives is not of God and in my opinion, should be avoided at all costs!

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Daz,

I've removed your plum colour as I could barely see it!

I agree that we retain our individuality and our spiritual identity. I also agree that communication goes on all the time between identities in the same realms of consciousness.

But the way I understand it, (and after all, none of us here on HP that I am aware of, has actually had an NDE, so it's in the realm of conjecture) is that after we pass over, there is a plane of consciousness where some individuals can get stuck, perhaps out of fear, (perhaps because they are not ready to let go of the material and all that is familiar), remaining just as material in their thinking as before.

It is at this level that if communion is possible at all and going back to the fact that we see and hear what we believe and believe what we see and hear, I honestly don't know if it is possible. But let's say it is, then those "communications" have no great benefit, because the other individual is just as material-minded as they were before they passed. And that is why I believe that the Bible warns against trying to talk to the dead and that we should turn to God instead.

Hi Judy .

The thing is you don’t have to have a N.D.E. to travel and become aware of the astral planes / spirit world . We are multidimensional beings of love and light (lol) that can become aware of a multidimensional universe . I have travelled to many worlds and I have connected with energies from other worlds without being near to death .

There are many individuals that are consumed by materialism on the earth plane and you are correct in that when they passover they are still material in nature for a time but that should not exclude them from being communicated with .. Is the bible asking people to turn a blind eye on those that are self centred / selfish in nature?? If that is the case then this should apply to everyone that is materialistic on the earth plane too .

There is no separation from the one that is living / aware of their individual existence on the earth plane and that of the spirit world .

The church / bible is blinded by their own methods / principles that exclude and divide . We are all Gods children . All planes of existence are created by God or the creator (In biblical terms) . . So what kind of God would rather have one turn their back on a troubled entity from another plane of existence instead of opening their hearts to them by any means possible .

One example that comes to mind . I had turned up for my weekly development circle / rescue circle as normal and a fellow sitter was giving me strange looks (nothing new there) lol They were seeing an old spirit gentleman within my energy . This soul was troubled and seemed confused . This soul wasn’t sure what was happening to him, He knew quite obviously that someone was quite right but he was in fear . His fear stemmed from his passing over that contained a fatal stabbing to the neck . He wasn’t 100% sure if he was ‘dead’ because he still felt as if he was alive .

All of his mind / body remained to be in existence . He had seen my light a week in time previous and had used my light to sustain his presence in the astral plane that is close to the physical plane in order to communicate with me / others . I was aware of someone in my energy but back then I wasn’t as receptive as I am now, but after a joint effort at the circle we eventually brought the mans mother from spirit into the circle .. We were all crying because of the release of emotion the release of fear and because of all the love that was felt and transmitted ..

Now what God would turn their back on that connection / communication / resolvement??

There is though a second death (the Bible speaks of it) and after the individual has spiritually progressed far enough to pass through it, then, communication between individuals from the higher planes of consciousness is impossible with us here, anymore than the butterfly could return to the caterpillar.

It simply boils down to the law of physics and vibrations etc .. I understand that certain energies cannot entertain a particular vibration but a high levelled vibrational being can still bring forth a wave of influence to the lower spheres . A discussion in its own right . However it also depends on the vibration of the individual that is enduring life on the earth plane (the medium) that can allow a passage/portal to be attained for particular energies to connect with them from the higher spheres .

The final stage is when all vestige of materiality disappears and we fully understand and demonstrate that there is only one Mind and one Spirit.

But the one Mind, God, can and does communicate all the time with Its creation - the spiritual identity that is our real selfhood. These angel messages, spiritual intuitions, can only bless, only bring healing, purity, spiritual uplift and understanding, peace, enlightenment, protection, comfort and joy. [COLOR="DarkRed"]What does not bring blessing and harmony into our lives is not of God and in my opinion, should be avoided at all costs!

There is no separation of anything that is of the one mind . In this respect there can be no divide there can be no-thing that is not God . Who would we be avoiding ..Who would we be turning the other cheek too if not an aspect of ourselves .

x daz x

In various places on the HP forums I've mentioned some of the psychic and clairvoyant experiences I've had - some of those experiences I've had on the HP forums. I've never directly talked about these experiences off-line, and I've never visited a psychic off-line.

Only on two occasions on HP, have I joined in on a couple of the card readings threads, which, in honesty, I participated in for reasons other than wanting any guidance or predictions (I hope that I haven't just offended the people who offered the readings, but it's true).

All I wanted to say about psychics at this point, is that if you could see (clairvoyantly see) what is happening when a skilled psychic (not someone who is harmlessly dabbling) is abusing their abilities (what I would consider an abuse of their abilities), then it's sickening - really, seriously disgusting. I've seen (clairvoyant seen) this happening in a number of places across the internet.

A couple of instances that I'm thinking of, the subjects under discussion weren't necessarily psychically oriented, but what happens is this:

The psychic will ask a question of someone so as to get a direct look inside that peron's mind. Whilst asking seemingly innocuous questions, the psychic is 'reaching around the back' of the respondent and 'pick pocketing' them.

What I mean is, when the person responds to the question, that person's mind is wide open. Whatever the respondent is unaware of (or has only a vague awareness of) in their own mind, the psychic (who is abusing their ability) - see this as theirs for the taking, in some cases it could be valuable information. To my mind - it's theft. Only - where's the evidence. It's tantamount to looting, raping and pillaging whilst the other person is unconscious - seriously seriously sickening.

If accusations are leveled at the psychic abusing their abilities, they go into denial, out-and-out lie. Or, revert to the old: "Where's your evidence/proof" line.

So, good for you happygirl and anyone else who has decided never to use psychics .;):)

As I said, I do now believe the Bible does have a point (for a very good reason) and will never, ever use them again.

As Crystal elf said earlier in the discussion:

....if we are just looking for someone to tell us what to do, then we have given away our power. No surprise if we then feel power-less later as a result! I'm hoping that the reason that most religions discourage going to mediums/psychics is to encourage us to develop our own direct connection with whoever we need to and to access to whatever knowledge we need, rather than just tarring them all with the same brush because some might be charlatans (at worst) or just fallible.

....here here.

PS: It's gratifying to watch the patterns play out. Anyone dipping into other peoples resources on whatever level, never gets away with it (going by what I've seen so far). They're only prolonging their own agony, by not facing up to (avoiding) personal responsibility.

Thanks for an interesting post daz.

I'm not going to comment upon it as my understanding is poles apart from yours, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

Now what God would turn their back on that connection / communication / resolvement??

I know that wherever we are, in whatever stage of experience, God, divine Love is already there, filling all space, and whenever someone reaches out for the light, the answer is found. How could infinite Love, filling all space possibly turn Its back on the object of Its Love? :p

The thing is that as you know, I am a student of Christian Science and Mary Baker Eddy, the remarkable woman who discovered this Science when she was on what was expected to be her deathbed, as a result of what she saw during that experience and what she found in her spiritual interpretation of the Bible plus the many years of research and healing; was able to heal instantaneously, every type of disease, injury, disability and to bring the dead and dying back to life.

I and millions of others of her students over the last 140 years have proved the worth of her teachings that unlock the healing power of the Bible. She wrote a chapter in her textbook Science and Health on [DLMURL="http://christianscience.com/read-online/science-and-health/chapter-4-christian-science-versus-spiritualism"]Spiritualism[/DLMURL], which was the result of what she had discovered, both through her study, research and healing, but also because she lived with Spiritualists for several years and was able to observe at first hand.

You see, I would rather take the word of someone who was able to prove her teachings practically, which included raising the dead on a few occasions, than someone who isn't. 😮

So as I said earlier, I respect your commitment to your beliefs Daz, but I don't share them.

Love and peace,

Judy

Thanks for an interesting post daz.

I'm not going to comment upon it as my understanding is poles apart from yours, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

Thats a shame judy because although I disagree with some of your beliefs I have and I am willing to discuss them all .

When I speak of my experiences had and give examples of them, I am not speaking from a belief that has no substance . Loads of individuals believe in God without any substance connected with that belief .. They a blinded by the belief .. The realization of God is beyond belief . The realization of Life after death and communicating with ‘spirit’ is beyond the belief of such a statement .

Believing in what I say or what Eddy baker says or what a Master/Guru says is having a belief in something that one has not tasted nor experienced or actualized . The millions of individuals that believe in the bible are believing what exactly?

know that wherever we are, in whatever stage of experience, God, divine Love is already there, filling all space, and whenever someone reaches out for the light, the answer is found. How could infinite Love, filling all space possibly turn Its back on the object of Its Love?

I agree that all is love . God is love and all that jazz, but what is apparent is that the individual that realizes that does not turn their back on someone that hasn’t realized this . You said that Bible warns against trying to talk to the dead and that we should turn to God instead.You said What does not bring blessing and harmony into our lives is not of God and in my opinion, should be avoided at all costs!

Well if all is love and all is God then I don’t understand turning one’s back on materialistic individuals and such likes .. Reigion is man made created through the intellectual mind . What you are or God when realized is of oneness and unity .. Not divide and separation . . What does religion therefore represent .. Unity or separation .

The thing is that as you know, I am a student of Christian Science and Mary Baker Eddy, the remarkable woman who discovered this Science when she was on what was expected to be her deathbed, as a result of what she saw during that experience and what she found in her spiritual interpretation of the Bible plus the many years of research and healing; was able to heal instantaneously, every type of disease, injury, disability and to bring the dead and dying back to life.

I and millions of others of her students over the last 140 years have proved the worth of her teachings that unlock the healing power of the Bible. She wrote a chapter in her textbook Science and Health on Spiritualism, which was the result of what she had discovered, both through her study, research and healing, but also because she lived with Spiritualists for several years and was able to observe at first hand.

You see, I would rather take the word of someone who was able to prove her teachings practically, which included raising the dead on a few occasions, than someone who isn't.

It doesn’t matter how many millions believe in what Eddy baker said or what is written in the bible .. Its more to do with quality not quantity .

In respect to her bringing the dead back to life .. according to her teachings

Ann Braude wrote that there were similarities between Spiritualism and Christian Science but the main difference was that Eddy after her discovery of Christian Science came to believe that spirit manifestations had never really had bodies to begin with, because matter is unreal and that all that really exists is spirit, before and after death . ..

So what is Eddy baker bringing back to life? the spirit? Nope because the spirit doesn’t die ..
No one can bring back someone from the so called dead beyond the consent or beyond the blue print of the individual concerned .

When your time is up .. it is up ..

Here is a few interesting words written about Eddy Baker ..

At the age of eight, Mary began to hear voices calling her name; (Hmm sounds like she hears spirit) :p

One day, when my cousin, Mehitable Huntoon, was visiting us, and I sat in a little chair by her side, in the same room with grandmother, the call again came, so loud that Mehitable heard it, though I had ceased to notice it. Greatly surprised, my cousin turned to me and said, 'Your mother is calling you!' Finally, after speaking with her mother, the child Mary responded to the voice with the phrase from Samuel 'Speak, Lord; for Thy servant heareth.' When the call came again I did answer, in the words of Samuel, but never again to the material senses was that mysterious call repeated

In February 1866, after a fall in Lynn, Massachusetts caused a spinal injury, she turned to God. She is quoted saying

On the third day thereafter, I called for my Bible, and opened it at Matthew, 9:2 [And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.(King James Bible) ]. As I read, the healing Truth dawned upon my sense; and the result was that I arose, dressed myself, and ever after was in better health than I had before enjoyed. That short experience included a glimpse of the great fact that I have since tried to make plain to others, namely, Life in and of Spirit; this Life being the sole reality of existence. ”

However, she later filed a claim for money from the city of Lynn for her injury on the grounds that she was "still suffering from the effects of that fall" (though she afterwards withdrew the lawsuit)

Her friends during these years were generally Spiritualists; she seems to have professed herself a Spiritualist, and to have taken part in séances. She was occasionally entranced, and had received "spirit communications" from her deceased brother Albert. Her first advertisement as a healer appeared in 1868, in the Spiritualist paper, The Banner of Light

With other Spiritualists Eddy had acted as a trance medium, claiming to channel the spirits of the Apostles. Eddy was also known for channeling messages from the dead brother of her friend Sarah Crosby. Eddy's mediumship converted Crosby to a believer in Spiritualism.

Mary Gould a Spiritualist from Lynn claimed that one of the spirits that Eddy channeled was Abraham Lincoln. According to eyewitness reports Eddy was still attending Spiritualist séances as late as 1872 (six years after her discovery of Christian Science). In these later séances Eddy would attempt to convert her audience into accepting Christian Science. Eddy showed extensive familiarity with Spiritualist practice but denounced Spiritualism in her Christian Science writings ..

x daz x

At the age of eight, Mary began to hear voices calling her name; (Hmm sounds like she hears spirit) :p

Oh my goodness Daz, I didn't expect to be reading all this! Well, there's a very good explanation, but I have to go to work in a minute, so it'll mostly have to wait till this evening.

The way I see it is this. there seem to me to be two sorts of spiritualist mediumship (and I'm including channelling etc here). There is the person contacting the dead which is the type the Bible warns against. Then there’s the belief that we need a person (called a priest, shaman, yogi for instance), who comes between you and God as an intermediary. But we all have a direct link to God and can receive guidance and instruction direct from God.

There is also a third type which includes Jesus. I would not describe as mediums, but as prophets. In the Glossary to Science & Health with Key to the Scriptures, Mary Baker Eddy describes a prophet thus:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]PROPHET. A spiritual seer; disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth.

Over the years on HP, I have had several discussions about the difference between divine Mind and the mortal mind and a member once pointed out a communication she came across where a spirit-guide had been asked questions about Christian Science. (I think I mentioned this is my first post on the thread) Well, it was so obviously human personal opinions and not divine inspiration - I could see it was just the channeler picking up what was in the general human thought - warts and all, misconceptions and all.

A spiritual seer will give mankind the Word of God. If the prophet is a genuine imparter of the Word of God, then the message will be one that uplifts, heals and promotes peace. The Bible describes this as the “peace which passeth all understanding” (Phil. 4) It will bless all those who seek its understanding, it will reform character, it will heal physical diseases and deformities and change lives. “Spiritual living and blessedness are the only evidences, by which we can recognize true existence and feel the unspeakable peace which comes from an all-absorbing spiritual love.” (S&H 264) I would say that spiritual living and blessedness are the only evidences by which we can recognise true prophets!

Mrs Eddy writes: [COLOR="RoyalBlue"]"There is mortal mind-reading and immortal Mind-reading. The latter is a revelation of divine purpose through spiritual understanding, by which man gains the divine Principle and explanation of all things. Mortal mind-reading and immortal Mind-reading are distinctly opposite standpoints, from which cause and effect are interpreted. The act of reading mortal mind investigates and touches only human beliefs. Science is immortal and coordinate neither with the premises nor with the conclusions of mortal beliefs." Science and Health p 83

The prophet Samuel, when he was a little boy, heard God calling his name:
[COLOR="Purple"]
...the boy Samuel served the Lord by assisting Eli. Now in those days messages from the Lord were very rare, and visions were quite uncommon.
2 One night Eli, who was almost blind by now, had gone to bed. 3 The lamp of God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was sleeping in the Tabernacle[a] near the Ark of God.
4 Suddenly the Lord called out, “Samuel!” “Yes?” Samuel replied. “What is it?”
5 He got up and ran to Eli. “Here I am. Did you call me?” “I didn’t call you,” Eli replied. “Go back to bed.” So he did.
6 Then the Lord called out again, “Samuel!” Again Samuel got up and went to Eli. “Here I am. Did you call me?” “I didn’t call you, my son,” Eli said. “Go back to bed.”
7 Samuel did not yet know the Lord because he had never had a message from the Lord before.
8 So the Lord called a third time, and once more Samuel got up and went to Eli. “Here I am. Did you call me?” Then Eli realized it was the Lord who was calling the boy.
9 So he said to Samuel, “Go and lie down again, and if someone calls again, say, ‘Speak, Lord, your servant is listening.’” So Samuel went back to bed.
10 And the Lord came and called as before, “Samuel! Samuel!”
And Samuel replied, “Speak, your servant is listening.”

And so did Mary Baker Eddy get called in the same way (that much - and her healing is true from what you've copied Daz) Here is the whole account: [DLMURL="http://christianscience.com/read-online/retrospection-and-introspection/voices-not-our-own"]Voices Not Our Own*/*Christian Science[/DLMURL]

Love and peaace,

Judy

The way I see it is this. there seem to me to be two sorts of spiritualist mediumship (and I'm including channelling etc here). There is the person contacting the dead which is the type the Bible warns against. Then there’s the belief that we need a person (called a priest, shaman, yogi for instance), who comes between you and God as an intermediary. But we all have a direct link to God and can receive guidance and instruction direct from God.

There is also a third type which includes Jesus. I would not describe as mediums, but as prophets. In the Glossary to Science & Health with Key to the Scriptures, Mary Baker Eddy describes a prophet thus:

PROPHET. A spiritual seer; disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth.

Hi Judy .. I know your busy off to work and all that but if you get time to address my other thoughts regarding religion and the bible it would be appreciated ..

You see (using biblical terms) we are all God . Where does this divide keep coming from? Certainly not from God . Tis from the intellectual mind . The mortal mind . The ordinary mind . To steer folk away from connecting with ancestors or from past incarnated souls and to embrace the divine God messengers or be it God direct is pure separation . It is placing judgement on the lowly souls that are not divine in the eyes of the church and placing the divine on a pedestal .

It would be interesting if you could explain where Mary Eddy Baker’s mediumship ties in with your understandings when she went in to trance in seances and communicated with peoples ancestors and the likes of abraham lincoln ..

Spiritualism refers to the equality of every living soul . It does not renounce individuals on any level of being .

I would agree that there are various types of mediumship and what you might call ‘Gods words’ spoken directly ‘out loud’ is what is termed/referred to as direct voice . Something that I am working on at present . At a physical mediumship retreat last year all 13 sitters heard the american indian drums . A sound that was generated in the spirit realms to be audible in the physical realms .

This is science . It isn’t christian science but it is science . Tis nothing to do with the devil or the spirits that the bible say’s one should steer clear of ...

Another thing is that within God realization or what you are, there is no / intellectual mind / mortal mind / ordinary mind that can think let alone speak ... I can’t get my head around how God can speak directly . This again separates God from what we are . I can relate to very enlightened and awakened souls that can individually and collectively ‘think’ and relay those thoughts from a multitude of realms .. I have been aware of many biblical characters / angels and such likes .. but times are changing and back in the days of the burning bush and such likes they were not of the understanding of the multiple of realms that exist and how science plays its part in how things can manifest and be created from the spirit side of life ..

There are many spirit chemists and physicists that frequent many spiritual circles including ours that are continually bringing forth information . These spirit individuals were well respected in their fields of work whilst on the earth plane and they are not of the devils work lol .. I can’t understand why the bible would restrain anyone from communicating with them .

There is also much channeled information regarding men of the cloth that once passed over to the world of spirit realized how terribly wrong their once held beliefs were ..

x dazzle x

Then there’s the belief that we need a person (called a priest, shaman, yogi for instance), who comes between you and God as an intermediary. But we all have a direct link to God and can receive guidance and instruction direct from God.

Shamans contact spirits, not 'God'. Possibly gods, but that's a type of spirit.

It would be interesting if you could explain where Mary Eddy Baker’s mediumship ties in with your understandings when she went in to trance in seances and communicated with peoples ancestors and the likes of abraham lincoln ..

[

Hi Daz, Mary Baker Eddy (notice which way round the names are! 😀 never was a medium or had mediumship.

I don't want to spend hours on her history, but to try to keep it short, she was very very famous in her day. Celebrities sell newspapers and magazines, especially if they can come up with something that is sensational! Georgine Milmine was an inferior muckraking journalist in Mrs. Eddy's time who decided to write a series of articles for McClure's Magazine that would "debunk" Mrs. Eddy. McClure's Magazine itself was known for sensational yellow journalism with little regard for facts. Milmine went around finding people who had known Mrs. Eddy and paid them if they would provide negative information about her.

Much of the information Milmine gathered has been proven to be false or distorted, but it was turned into a series of articles that appeared in McClure's Magazine. Later the articles were expanded into the Milmine biography and it's from this biography that so many people or organisations (like the Christian church) which wanted to discredit Mrs Eddy would get their information from. Sadly, these distortions of the truth continue today.

I said above that Mrs Eddy lived with Spiritualists in the early days of Christian Science - they were only ones open-minded enough not to reject her because of her radical ideas. She found them warm-hearted, kind and hospitable and always spoke highly of their friendship, but she did not agree with their beliefs.While she lived with Spiritualists, yes, her first advert was placed in The Banner, advertising herself as a healer.

Mrs Sarah Crosby was a Spiritualist who tried to convert Mrs Patterson (as Eddy was then) - not the other way around as the author you are quoting has stated. Mrs Patterson tried and tried to convince her to leave it alone, but when she just didn't seem to be able to get through to her, she played a trick on Mrs Crosby. She faked a trance and produced fake "automatic writing" claiming to be coming from her deceased brother, Albert Baker, in order to show Mrs. Crosby how easy it was to fake such communications. When Mrs. Patterson told her it was fake, Mrs. Crosby refused to believe that it was not genuine! About this time, Mrs Crosby started making many demands on her friend and Mrs Patterson cooled towards her.

An independent biographer, Gillian Gill, who spent 7 years researching her book Mary Baker Eddy wrote tellingly:

“This pattern of intense involvement between Mary Baker Eddy and another person, male or female, then detachment by Mrs Eddy, followed by resentment or even reprisals from the friend left behind….”
“Mrs Crosby would not be the last person to find Mary Baker Eddy the most fascinating person she had ever met, and who would deeply resent the fact that Mrs Eddy had not found her equally fascinating and remained her exclusive and devoted friend.”

Milmine and various newspaper articles also would quote people claiming that they knew Mrs. Eddy personally when she was a practicing medium in Boston or St. Louis. But Mrs. Eddy never even visited St. Louis, and the during the years these people claimed she was a practicing medium, Mrs. Eddy was actually an invalid in North Groton, New Hampshire, and couldn't even leave her bed!

Abraham Lincoln is a new one to me! :rolleyes:

There is a wealth of reliable testimony from people who knew her then, about her opposition to spiritualism, as well as newspaper accounts of her public lectures against it.

Whew.

I found this article by someone who grew up in a Spiritualist home. I think she can explain the difference better than I can:

"Never born, never dying"

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Daz, Mary Baker Eddy (notice which way round the names are! 😀 never was a medium or had mediumship.

I don't want to spend hours on her history, but to try to keep it short, she was very very famous in her day. Celebrities sell newspapers and magazines, especially if they can come up with something that is sensational! Georgine Milmine was an inferior muckraking journalist in Mrs. Eddy's time who decided to write a series of articles for McClure's Magazine that would "debunk" Mrs. Eddy. McClure's Magazine itself was known for sensational yellow journalism with little regard for facts. Milmine went around finding people who had known Mrs. Eddy and paid them if they would provide negative information about her.

Much of the information Milmine gathered has been proven to be false or distorted, but it was turned into a series of articles that appeared in McClure's Magazine. Later the articles were expanded into the Milmine biography and it's from this biography that so many people or organisations (like the Christian church) which wanted to discredit Mrs Eddy would get their information from. Sadly, these distortions of the truth continue today.

I said above that Mrs Eddy lived with Spiritualists in the early days of Christian Science - they were only ones open-minded enough not to reject her because of her radical ideas. She found them warm-hearted, kind and hospitable and always spoke highly of their friendship, but she did not agree with their beliefs.While she lived with Spiritualists, yes, her first advert was placed in The Banner, advertising herself as a healer.

Mrs Sarah Crosby was a Spiritualist who tried to convert Mrs Patterson (as Eddy was then) - not the other way around as the author you are quoting has stated. Mrs Patterson tried and tried to convince her to leave it alone, but when she just didn't seem to be able to get through to her, she played a trick on Mrs Crosby. She faked a trance and produced fake "automatic writing" claiming to be coming from her deceased brother, Albert Baker, in order to show Mrs. Crosby how easy it was to fake such communications. When Mrs. Patterson told her it was fake, Mrs. Crosby refused to believe that it was not genuine! About this time, Mrs Crosby started making many demands on her friend and Mrs Patterson cooled towards her.

An independent biographer, Gillian Gill, who spent 7 years researching her book Mary Baker Eddy wrote tellingly:

Milmine and various newspaper articles also would quote people claiming that they knew Mrs. Eddy personally when she was a practicing medium in Boston or St. Louis. But Mrs. Eddy never even visited St. Louis, and the during the years these people claimed she was a practicing medium, Mrs. Eddy was actually an invalid in North Groton, New Hampshire, and couldn't even leave her bed!

Abraham Lincoln is a new one to me! :rolleyes:

There is a wealth of reliable testimony from people who knew her then, about her opposition to spiritualism, as well as newspaper accounts of her public lectures against it.

Whew.

I found this article by someone who grew up in a Spiritualist home. I think she can explain the difference better than I can:

"Never born, never dying"

Love and peace,

Judy

Thanks for adding what you did Judy . Without giving too much away my circle was aware of her energy over a year ago, she actually stepped forward with phineas Quimby .. There was no dialogue as such other name giving there names ..

At the time I had not heard of either of them and had no idea also that they knew each other when they were incarnated in the physical . This is the type of confirmations that I get through researching information and names given .

So you caught my attention when I have seen your quotes / references on the occasional post here and there .

It is difficult to tell in hindsight what Mary Baker Eddy did or did not do just as it is difficult to say what Jesus did or did not do, there are various accounts made by many that say this and say that about her, just as people do today ... In regards to Margret Thatcher, in time to come she would be regarded as a monster or a saviour depending on who has written such accounts ...

Thanks also for adding the "Never born, never dying" link also, I agree we are never born and we never die .. but does that not show you something about the bibles approach when speaking of steering clear of talking to the dead .. Tis just a sign of those times ..

All that happens is there is communication had .. from one spirit to another . No dimension whether it be the earth plane or the spirit world can change that .. There is no core difference to that of the individual that is of both worlds ..

It's not witchcraft is not the work of the devil, it is just individual spirit that communicates within mind .. Just the same way as Mrs Eddy and Mr Quimby had communicated after they had passed over in to the world of spirit ..

Whatever Mrs Eddy wrote that poo poos spiritualism or mediums or whatever doesn't change how anything really is .

Thanks for the respectful chat Judy ..

x dazzle x

Thanks for the respectful chat Judy ..

x dazzle x

And thank you too! 😎

Wonder if anyone saw Derren Brown's programme last night on CH4 on psychcis (or should I say mediums) ? It was a repeat as I think I've seen it advertised before but never watched it. It just horrified me to be frank and although Derren never directly accused anyone of fakery it was intresting to note that Derren (a non psychic and who admits that all his work is just trickery) gave a better reading to someone than the psychic !!

.

It's not witchcraft is not the work of the devil, it is just individual spirit that communicates within mind ..

If I have read this correctly then if individual spirits communicate - is that the reason why different psychcics can give different answers to the same question/s ? If this is so - which spirit or version is to be believed by the client ?

If I have read this correctly then if individual spirits communicate - is that the reason why different psychcics can give different answers to the same question/s ? If this is so - which spirit or version is to be believed by the client ?

There seems many varying answers to questions when put to spirit .

Truth for use of a better word does not fall upon one's lap no matter if one is of the earth plane or of the spirit world .

Each individual spirit can give their interpretation of it .. Each individuals truth resonates with their individual energy . Where there are similarities in energy there are similar truths . .

It also depends on the question .

x daz x

Each individual spirit can give their interpretation of it .. Each individuals truth resonates with their individual energy . Where there are similarities in energy there are similar truths . .

But Daz, the Bible is speaking of the one universal Truth - or God. Where you have individual "truths", you have individual minds and those mortal minds are the counterfeit of the one divine Mind or God, of whom Paul said, "Let this [M]ind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"

Love and peace,

Judy

But Daz, the Bible is speaking of the one universal Truth - or God. Where you have individual "truths", you have individual minds and those mortal minds are the counterfeit of the one divine Mind or God, of whom Paul said, "Let this [M]ind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy

HappyGirls question put to me was not bible related . My answer was not bible related .

The bible information is individualized however . Every piece of wisdom, truth or untruth has been intellectualized in such a way where man has interpreted the stories .

Unless God .. and In my eyes God is not a man/energy that can speak nor write independently that can convey wisdom directly then everything that is written in or of the bible is individually influenced by their own mindful senses... be it via the mortal mind or the universal mind etc ..

x daz x

The bible information is individualized however . Every piece of wisdom, truth or untruth has been intellectualized in such a way where man has interpreted the stories .

Unless God .. and In my eyes God is not a man/energy that can speak nor write independently that can convey wisdom directly then everything that is written in or of the bible is individually influenced by their own mindful senses... be it via the mortal mind or the universal mind etc ..

The individualized information which has been intellectualized and individually influenced by an individuals own mindful senses is different from the individualized information of an individual medium and the individual spirit communicators.... how exactly?

In order to have a two way conversation there needs to be two individuals . In this instance one would be the medium and one would be the spirit communicator .

The individualized information which has been intellectualized and individually influenced by an individuals own mindful senses is different from the individualized information of an individual medium and the individual spirit communicators.... how exactly?

Hi W.S.

There is no difference from a perspective of one being an individual . I have not mention of there being a difference in that respect .

It matters not what is evaluated by whom and by what form or state of mind that one is of .. or finds themselves to be .

Each individual though has an individual point of perception had or a state of awareness had that reflects their truths or non truths .

In regards to the spirit individuals / communicators that reside in the spirit world that communicate with 'mediums' have an awareness that is beyond the physical . There perspective can allow them to see beyond the so called now moment ..

Many individuals that sit before a medium that are in need of guidance cannot see beyond the now moment ... At times another perspective is what one requires ..

x daz x

There is no difference from a perspective of one being an individual . I have not mention of there being a difference in that respect .

....I didn't say that you did 🙂

It matters not what is evaluated by whom and by what form or state of mind that one is of .. or finds themselves to be .

Who does it not matter to? Your talking from an individualized daz perspective, surely? Speaking like this (my underlining ):

If two aspects of physical consciousness can relate and confer with each other then two ‘spirits’ can confer and spirit and physical can confer .

On another level if there is one self and one mind then there is only one to think and to read .. tis likened to one speaking to one’s self .

Or, as God (one Mind) speaking through the individualized form of Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver put it: "Are you talking at me? Cause I'm the only one here" (TeeHee)

In some respect this is perhaps true but whilst one remains as an individual and can entertain different belief systems it appears as if ‘you’ judy can converse with ‘me’ daz .

In what respects is this a non thruth from the individualized daz perspective?

You mention non truths here:

Each individual though has an individual point of perception had or a state of awareness had that reflects their truths or non truths .

....I didn't say that you did 🙂

The individualized information which has been intellectualized and individually influenced by an individuals own mindful senses is different from the individualized information of an individual medium and the individual spirit communicators.... how exactly?

:

You put the question to me and mentioned how is it different exactly?? I read it that you assumed that I perceive difference .

Or, as God (one Mind) speaking through the individualized form of Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver put it: "Are you talking at me? Cause I'm the only one here" (TeeHee)

:

lol .

.
In what respects is this a non truth from the individualized daz perspective?

:

It is from the individual perspective that has evaluated and answered a question .

x daz x

One more thing individualized daz, this is yourself speaking (as you're the the only one here). Your Self via the form of the "bad smell" that enters the room when you talk of your self-realization..... Here's the message:

"The one who smelt it dealt it!" (:D:p)

(.....I've been spending too much time with my nephew....:D:rolleyes:heeeheee )

Many individuals that sit before a medium that are in need of guidance cannot see beyond the now moment ... At times another perspective is what one requires ..

Btw, I can see how this could be a comforting service to those in need of some perspective....:)

Thanks for answering my questions ;):)

There seems many varying answers to questions when put to spirit .

Truth for use of a better word does not fall upon one's lap no matter if one is of the earth plane or of the spirit world .

Each individual spirit can give their interpretation of it .. Each individuals truth resonates with their individual energy . Where there are similarities in energy there are similar truths . .

It also depends on the question .

x daz x

My problem though is that clients seek answers or further info about something (and pay handsomely for this info). The fact that they can be led "up the garden path" so to speak by different info or different interpretations leads me again to conclude that psychics or mediums should not be contacted. With false or conflicting info being imparted, this is of no use (and in some cases can be downright damaging) to the client.

Wonder if anyone saw Derren Brown's programme last night on CH4 on psychcis (or should I say mediums) ? It was a repeat as I think I've seen it advertised before but never watched it. It just horrified me to be frank and although Derren never directly accused anyone of fakery it was intresting to note that Derren (a non psychic and who admits that all his work is just trickery) gave a better reading to someone than the psychic !!

Didn't see it that night, but I've seen it before (and he's done some other programmes of a similar vein), and he's very good at it, and very good at demonstrating how people can be easily led to believe that such 'messages from spirit' are true'.

More people should see those programmes, not to necessarily try and make them disbelieve, but more so that they can see how easily people can be misled, and to allow them to better question whether, what they are being told, is truthful or not.

All Love and Reiki Hugs