What Christianity has to say about psychcis

Hi, I can't comment on the Bible directly, but I personally have met so many duff medium/clairvoyent "types" in the course of my work and socially, and would not touch any of them with a barge pole. Poor advice, cold reading, ego and mind games. Most of them need to seriously sort themselves out - physically, mentally and spiritually! I also met people have genuine psychic abilities, but their life are often in a mess. I'm just going by my personal experience. Just because someone channels the dead, doesn't mean that the dead are telling the truth!!

Regardless of what belief system people believe in, the question to ask is, "Why do so many people go to psychics and make big life decision on the twist of a card?"

May be a lack of confidence in making decisions, an overloaded and confused mind, spiritual void in their life???

RP

Hi Reiki Pixie,

You do ask a very sensible question about why people use psychics etc. Obviously I can’t answer for anyone else (apart from a few friends who have told me) but from my perspective I used them to try and find more about situations which I couldn’t find out about from any other way (if that makes sense). I know friends have used them when they have faced hard situations in life – after losing someone or maybe at risk of losing a job etc and therefore are in a vulnerable position. I guess all of us find ourselves in vulnerable situations in life (even the strongest of us) and the people I know who have contacted mediums, psychics etc try and get some comfort or information that will help. The trouble is – that false information can cause so much distress and problems.

Hence me thinking about the Bible and I believe other faiths such as Islam (although I am happy to be corrected if this isn’t so) forbid contacting psychics, mediums etc. Now it all makes sense. Partly it’s there as you should have faith in God alone (if you have areligious belief) but from a practical purpose (even those with no faith) I feel it’s there to stop people exploiting or giving false information to people who are vulnerable

I have always wondered what the bible refers to when it warns against seeking out psychics. or is it false prophets?. Anyway I read somewhere that not everything in the bible is to be taken literally word for word but to try to understand the messages behind the wording. I wondered is the message is meaning something else?. I bet Principled will know.:)

But yes I agree there are many reasons people seek out psychics and often after recent losses of loved ones a period of seeking begins where the psychic comes into the seeking period.

There is such a big responsibilty for reading for others and can certanly change ones life for years.

But I am glad you made the comment "What Christianity has to say about psychcis" I too am curious.

Hii Happygirl
I don't know the Biblical verses and parts that advise on this particular question but I have been a devout student of a lovely Jehova's witneness lady for over a year, and at another time been whole heartedly with born again Christians too.
Both warn against psychics, channels etc or any form of divination. It is very clear that Bible commands trust and faith into only One. Which is common ground amongst most religions

Having a slightly more indepth understanding of Eastern religions a Bible is largely coherent with most pontings dealing with life situations. Coming from Easten religious and spiritual traditions, it is clear that most religions deem it all as a digression and unnecessary projections of mind.
Mind feels smug in what it knows and can access, but most of it turns out to be a distraction, both for the consultant and the one who is claiming psychic gifts.
Bible( as far as my little aquiantance with it goes, is very clear on this.
As you say, your experince has been less than gratifying. It can't be gratifying even if one or two sundry things were seen to be correct. No doubt, on a few occasions some people find some help, but that happens only sometimes.
Religon is the way to finding inner peace...and psychics, clairvoyance etc etc are just a diversion to either seek solace or insight.... Peace is only ever found when mind is settled and takes a break fromn rushing here and there to know this and that, to forsee this that and the other. All answers are found within, when the ego -trips take a little break. All religions are coherent on that.

Life is about choices
The Bible does have much to say about psychics
However, people have the power of free will and choices
Because someone has an opinion, this does not make it yours
An historic book hold the same value as all books
As books hold the opinions of those that have written them
We were given free will for a reason
And even the Bible excepts that we have and should have beliefs
All books have people who believe in them whatever they have to say

As the Bible has its followers
Others also have followers
As all the people have opinions

To add to this thread, in Buddhism it asks it's lay practitioners to chose wisely the work that they do. Psychic/fortune telling (for want of a better term) is one that it doesn't recommend for the reasons that Jnani since it can be a.....

digression and unnecessary projections of mind

and that the mind...

feels smug in what it knows and can access, but most of it turns out to be a distraction, both for the consultant and the one who is claiming psychic gifts

To a certain point it is useful to look at spiritual texts, as it can be a starting point. But not forgetting that the finger that points to the moon shouldn't be confused as the moon itself.

I have to admit that in my own spiritual quest, I'm appreciating traditional religious teachings a bit more these days as it has grounding, even though so much as been distorted and twisted. Unlike more new agey beliefs which to me (in my very honest opinion) wobble on very shaky ground.

If someone benefits from their interaction with a psychic, all well and good. It's the vunable(sp) and sensitive people I'm more concerned about who can be taken for a ride by the "all seeing and all knowing" clairvoyent.

Or may be seeing a psychic is just a hobby for some people :rolleyes:

Hey guys, (or is it gals and guy?) I was slightly, but pleasantly surprised at the conclusions you had all reached! 😉

I have to say that psychic practices are a topic I’d prefer to avoid. To me, spiritualism in particular is about unhealed grief and I have great compassion for anyone who is desperate and though there are many charlatans, I also know there are many individuals (including here on HP) who are sincerely trying to help and comfort others and the last thing I would want to come across as, is disrespectful or insensitive.

Having said that, yes, the Bible is full of all sorts of warnings against psychic practices and there are also instances of practitioners of these arts being healed of the ability to practice them.

My absolute favourite wording for one passage is in the ancient King James Version:

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? (Isaiah 8)

Here’s a modern version:

When people tell you, “Try out the fortunetellers.
Consult the spiritualists.
Why not tap into the spirit-world,
get in touch with the dead?”
Tell them, “No, we’re going to study the Scriptures.”
People who try the other ways get nowhere—a dead end!
Frustrated and famished,
they try one thing after another.
When nothing works out they get angry,
cursing first this god and then that one,
Looking this way and that,
up, down, and sideways—and seeing nothing,
A blank wall, an empty hole.
They end up in the dark with nothing. (Isa 8:19-22 The Message)

Once, on HP, one of the members told me about a website where people asked ‘ascended masters’ questions and she’d found a page where the questions were about Christian Science. Well, quite honestly, though most of it was OK, it was so obviously human personal opinions and not divine inspiration with any real knowledge or understanidng involved and I felt, “good grief, if this is the sort of ignorance you find after ascension, then God help us!” 😀

Mary Baker Eddy (who wrote a chapter on [DLMURL="http://christianscience.com/read-online/science-and-health/chapter-4-christian-science-versus-spiritualism"]Christian Science versus Spiritualism[/DLMURL] in her book Science and Health) lived with several spiritualists who befriended her in the early days of her discovery of Christian Science when she was reviled and misunderstood for her radical and revolutionary ideas (especially as they were coming from a woman!) Many early Christian Scientists came from the spiritualist community because, as Mrs Eddy found, they were "liberal, kind-hearted people, and were quite ready to accept new ideas." She thought very highly of their humanity and nature. (Mary Baker Eddy by G. Gill p. 179)

During her deep search for truth and healing, she researched many alternative therapies and other systems, including spiritualism, but found that nothing was high enough to answer her deepest questions except, as she understood it, healing which came direct from the Christ-power, the power which Jesus lived and demonstrated so profoundly.

On the same page of the book above, Gillian Gill tells of a time when Eddy attended a spiritualist meeting. The medium described an incident from her youth so perfectly that it brought tears to Eddy’s eyes. Then, as further "proof" one of the company asked the medium to describe Eddy’s mother: "Instantly I pictured in thought the exact opposite of my mother. The medium described precisely what I held in thought and the company beamed with satisfaction. "There," said they, "you have your proof."

Through such experiences, Eddy was convinced that this was simply human mind-reading and the effects of human beliefs and tried to explain the difference between connecting to the divine Mind (God) and reading mortal mind:

When I learned how mind produces disease on the body, I learned how it produces the manifestations ignorantly imputed to spirits. I saw how the mind's ideals were evolved and made tangible; and it matters not whether that ideal is a flower or a cancer, if the belief is strong enough to manifest it. (Christian Healing p.6)

"There is mortal mind-reading and immortal Mind-reading. The latter is a revelation of divine purpose through spiritual understanding, by which man gains the divine Principle and explanation of all things. Mortal mind-reading and immortal Mind-reading are distinctly opposite standpoints, from which cause and effect are interpreted. The act of reading mortal mind investigates and touches only human beliefs.” (Science and Health 83)

Love and peace,

Judy

Is it possible that most people don't fully appreciate what is that can be best gained from Spiritualism or a psychic demonstration.

Spiritualism to me is intended to demonstrates the fact that we all have a spiritual connection. That we are immortal, and thus effectively shows that there is a God, or a creator..

Many seem to expect life changing revelations to be disclosed, but the very nature of Spirit would suggest that this is not possible. I believe that we have to chart our own path in life.

I have been to meetings where the request has been for how should I do this or how will that effect me. These are questions that personally I think that we are forbidden to know. The best that I think that one can expect is conformation that all is well, and that love is being exchanged.

Any contact to me only reinforces the belief that there is a spiritual in the form of a mental connection, that includes Creation itself. That connection works through and is the media for love and contains all the positive values that we are capable of, I do not think that it appertains to or is meant for the material.

Or may be seeing a psychic is just a hobby for some people :rolleyes:

yeah! In India most families have a family astrologer and they make birth chrats, auspicious times for marriages, it is just the cultural thing. It is mostly sooting for people to hear about themselves, their problems, their futures. It is a balm I me mine. The astrologer/psychic/channel is also loving it because he has got your undivided attention, there is sense of power in that. "scratching each other's back"- is how it is refered to where I come from. hobby? yes for it can be entertaining for mind, very so

In India, the astrologers, soothsayers, the psychics etc etc are a mere side show, just because there is a very solid religious spiritual support system for people, so divination is never confused with divinity, spirituality or higher state of mind etc- unlike here in west. It certainly is not as respectful ás it has become in West.

My personal observation is because West has gone through a degree of denouncement of traditional Christian treaching-(due to church and myriad reasons...) God has become a dirty word. Many many people, have an issue even with the word itself. Most don't want to do anything to do with teachings of Bible( the only original religious book in west) It has caused a gaping hole that people are trying to fill with alternate new agey stuff.

There is definitely a spiritual void in the West. I think a lot of it in the UK at least with the Reformation. Yet 500+ years later, people are wishing to visit holy wells and mini shines are cropping up here and there, especially with fatal road accidents.

God/Religion has generally got a bad name and it's understandable that new agey beliefs are popular. And can understand why people look at the East, as after all they are well developed philosophies. But I think it's a mistake to think the West is spiritually devoid and the East is bright and shiny! But in the West we have spirituality, but we have to dig deeper and plough though the dross, whether it's via Christian mystics, ancient Greek, Celtic spirituality, Nordic beliefs and so forth..........

As for psychics, it is in one respect emotional entertainment. Like going to the cinema :rolleyes:

There is definitely a spiritual void in the West. I think a lot of it in the UK at least with the Reformation. Yet 500+ years later, people are wishing to visit holy wells and mini shines are cropping up

God/Religion has generally got a bad name and it's understandable that new agey beliefs are popular. And can understand why people look at the East, as after all they are well developed philosophies. But I think it's a mistake to think the West is spiritually devoid and the East is bright and shiny! But in the West we have spirituality, but we have to dig deeper and plough though the dross, whether it's via Christian mystics, ancient Greek, Celtic spirituality, Nordic beliefs and so forth..........

As for psychics, it is in one respect emotional entertainment. Like going to the cinema :rolleyes:

Mind is the same old mechanism everywhere east or west. It is same old striving, trying to find imporatnce, feel special etc etc ...and yet surrender, devotion happen in the same mind too.
Humanity is just humanity, east and west don't come into it. Differences are skin deep.
I feel east and west are looking to merge like never before. Heart and head have to marry up eventually. and that seems to be happening. So as consciousness decides to cleanse itself...the follies, concepts clear up too.
It seems to be the way that more and more are getting dis-enchanted with new agey type spirituality.
It was a good step on the way, and it has served its purpose. it has got common person interested into more than physical. It will begin to become redundant, atleast amongst people who are looking deeply into surrender and moving beyond games of mind.
Truth has a way of revealing itsel. The urge for truth is universal. Western spirituality is solid in its traditional sense but that stream has been allowed to shrink down to a trickle but the very gist of human nature is that it will find the flow. The trickle is bound to become a river again. Such is the force of consciousness
Human heart finds and is only ever satisfied with eternal. Mind can digress and be entertained by lies and agendas but heart has quite a different yearning. Each sentient being is expression of that yearning-consciously or unconsciously

Hi Reiki Pixie,

You do ask a very sensible question about why people use psychics etc. Obviously I can’t answer for anyone else (apart from a few friends who have told me) but from my perspective I used them to try and find more about situations which I couldn’t find out about from any other way (if that makes sense). .

I actually think the bible ( and probably the Koran ) warns against mediums. I dod't recall l the word 'psychic' appearing- and the two are not the same. I actually believe we ALL have the ability to be 'psychic' whatever that means.

As to why people go to a psychic for readings - well I know the sort of questions clients ask me and often they are at a crossroads. Very many readings turn into mini life coaching sessions in fact. Since by law we have to say what we are doing is for entertainment purposes only I would be extremely disturbed if anyone made massive decision on the 'turn of a card'. I actually don't think any psychic can or should try to act as a 'fortune teller' I don't believe it is possible because we all have free will. I do not believe the future is fore ordained. The example I give is someone asks if they will succeed in the interview they are going to. The indications are that they will - then for what ever reasons they do not go to the interview.

People will got to a medium normally to connect with a loved one who has died. There is very little future planning in those sorts of sessions although there may well be advice passed on!!

It seems to be the way that more and more are getting dis-enchanted with new agey type spirituality.
It was a good step on the way, and it has served its purpose. it has got common person interested into more than physical. It will begin to become redundant, atleast amongst people who are looking deeply into surrender and moving beyond games of mind.
Truth has a way of revealing itsel. The urge for truth is universal. Western spirituality is solid in its traditional sense but that stream has been allowed to shrink down to a trickle but the very gist of human nature is that it will find the flow. The trickle is bound to become a river again. Such is the force of consciousness
Human heart finds and is only ever satisfied with eternal. Mind can digress and be entertained by lies and agendas but heart has quite a different yearning. Each sentient being is expression of that yearning-consciously or unconsciously

It seems that you have a poor understanding of what constitutes New Age spirituality.
Whilst it embraces psychic and spiritual matters, the spirituality can be very deep and life transforming. It is very far from dwindling down but, indeed, enjoying an unsurpassed
blossoming. For instance, Oprah Winfrey helped bring Eckhart Tolle's teaching available to the mass media with her TV show. This has had a significant, influential and beneficial impact on countless lives globally.

The understanding of the many I talk to is that it is the organised religions that are experiencing a significant drop in their participants, notably Christianity. People seem to want to search out the answers to the big life questions without the constraints imposed by such institutions.

It seems that you have a poor understanding of what constitutes New Age spirituality.
Whilst it embraces psychic and spiritual matters, the spirituality can be very deep and life transforming. It is very far from dwindling down but, indeed, enjoying an unsurpassed
blossoming. For instance, Oprah Winfrey helped bring Eckhart Tolle's teaching available to the mass media with her TV show. This has had a significant, influential and beneficial impact on countless lives globally.

The understanding of the many I talk to is that it is the organised religions that are experiencing a significant drop in their participants, notably Christianity. People seem to want to search out the answers to the big life questions without the constraints imposed by such institutions.

Hi Amy
I would love to know what you mean 'unsurpassed blossoming'.

Oprah bringing Eckart into public gaze is media. How does it translate that into new age spirituality? That is spreading of a teaching. like in ancient times boddh Monks went to china and Japan and the rest of far east. Today it is internet or telly, Just the medium has changed. that is all.
what Eckhart is teaching is not new agey. Being close to him will completely shatter the persona. Being with Eckhart Tollle would not be for faint hearted, yet reading his books is so 'enlightening'. Because then any connotation can be given to what is being said.

Organised religion is a shackle only if there is a fear of it. Religion does not bind you, it may free you but the attitude must be of receptivity. No wonder sticking with what Bible says is challenging to most because it feels opressive, dictatorial, there is no songs about free will. it does not entertain mind, because mind rather do what it wants to do.

So it keeps embracing this and that along with God. But God is when nothing else remains. feel good factor is the base of modern spirituality.

Hi Amy
I would love to know what you mean 'unsurpassed blossoming'.

Oprah bringing Eckart into public gaze is media. How does it translate that into new age spirituality? That is spreading of a teaching. like in ancient times boddh Monks went to china and Japan and the rest of far east. Today it is internet or telly, Just the medium has changed. that is all.
what Eckhart is teaching is not new agey. Being close to him will completely shatter the persona. Being with Eckhart Tollle would not be for faint hearted, yet reading his books is so 'enlightening'. Because then any connotation can be given to what is being said.

Organised religion is a shackle only if there is a fear of it. Religion does not bind you, it may free you but the attitude must be of receptivity. No wonder sticking with what Bible says is challenging to most because it feels opressive, dictatorial, there is no songs about free will. it does not entertain mind, because mind rather do what it wants to do.

So it keeps embracing this and that along with God. But God is when nothing else remains. feel good factor is the base of modern spirituality.

Eckhart Tolle is a widely recognised New Age pioneer/leader. Oprah provided a platform for his book The Power Of Now to be looked into. Have you read it? He
does cite where we can be free of the suffering from our ego and helps us experience
contact with our spirit, similar to the experience of meditation. Hardly shattering the persona but enabling us to discern what is real. This is familiar to those who are spiritually focused. Your post indicates you have a poor understanding of him. It has nothing at all to do with feel good factor but contact with a very peaceful place......

My contact with spiritual forums indicates this unsurpassed blossoming - we are enjoying more mainstream acceptance. Indeed science has become interested in spiritual practises and there have been many discoveries. Here is the latest finding.

Hi all,

Your replies have been really interesting.

While I understand that to a certain degree we are all psychic (indeed I have had feelings about things that have turned out to be true as I’m sure has happened to many people), but I’m not so sure that even some genuine psychics and mediums (and yes I do understand the difference between the two) really understand the damage that can be caused by giving mis-information (I’m obviously excluding the charlatans from this sentence who don’t care anyway).

My main focus for getting information from psychics was work related and I found out that I had been given mis-information by so called reputable psychics. However a friend of mine went to psychics for her love life. She had been badly hurt in a previous relationship and wanted to be cautious (naturally) about getting into something new. When she met a man and started going out with him, she consulted psychics about whether he was single and what his feelings were towards her. Each psychic said he didn’t have anyone else, was a lovely genuine decent person who wanted to stay with her. She met his parents and friends and everything seemed cosy. However eventually after all this she found out that he was living a double life and had another girlfriend who was pregnant (his parents and friends knew nothing about this). Imagine her devastation then having been given mis-information about the whole situation and having wasted money on psychic consultations and wasting a lot of time and investing emotions in someone who had a double life. When she found out she was ill with shock – hence my anger at the people who don’t appear to understand the problems caused if info they give out turns out to be not true. Another friend consults mediums after losing her father. She did try and get me to go to one after I lost someone years ago but I didn’t fancy going and I’m glad now that I said no. A few years ago I remember watching a programme on TV about people who went to psychic shows held by famous psychics (although medium should be the correct description) who said they could channel messages from those who had passed on. Maybe some get comfort from this but I felt sad watching all these vulnerable people who had lost someone they loved being so desperate to get a message. I just felt it was exploititive to be honest

I am aware about certain cultures using astrologers for auspicious dates etc as my ex (as many of you know) was from the sub-continent. I think this is OK but I’m unhappy about psychics and mediums as many people consult them when they’re vulnerable (bereaved, divorced, out of work etc) and receiving wrong info can compound that person’s problems not help them.

I believe on a practical level that’s why many faiths discourage using these services.

Eckhart Tolle is a widely recognised New Age pioneer/leader.

I've never considered him to be "New Age" myself and not really come across others who refer to him as New Age (apart from some skeptics who wouldn't recognise "New Age" if it smacked them in the face - but still they think they know better LOL!).

Eckhart is a spiritual teacher, who has taken the teachings of non-duality and living in the present, and re-marketed them in modern language for todays society. The power of Now, or living in the present moment is nothing new... and has been part of the teachings of Advaita Vedanta for as long as you can trace back... and is also the basis of the philosophy behind Hinduism. There's certainly nothing "New Age" about the teachings, just that Eckhart has given them the modern "power of Now" label for media and marketing purposes.

Oprah provided a platform for his book The Power Of Now to be looked into. Have you read it? He does cite where we can be free of the suffering from our ego and helps us experience contact with our spirit, similar to the experience of meditation. Hardly shattering the persona but enabling us to discern what is real. This is familiar to those who are spiritually focused. Your post indicates you have a poor understanding of him. It has nothing at all to do with feel good factor but contact with a very peaceful place......

I didn't feel that, from what Jnani wrote, she had a poor understanding of Eckhart at all. I feel she made a perfectly valid point that, just because Oprah and Eckhart are getting these teachings 'out there' using modern media methods, doesn't make those teachings New Age... as the philosophy of Advaita Vedanta is rooted in the ancient texts of the Upanisads and the Bhagavad Gita, written in ancient sanskrit, and these are the teachings Eckhart is sharing, just without referring directly to those texts. If you like, it would be the same as someone re-writing the underlying moral teachings of the bible as a book on being good and kind to others, without mentioning God, Jesus, saints or any other such things that were used to illustrate those moral teachings in the old texts. I would class it more as "self help" than "new age".

All Love and Reiki Hugs

HappyGirl,

It seems to me that perhaps the Bible and other religious texts warn about false prophets and psychics and mediums etc. not because they are necessarily bad people or deceptive (no doubts there are some out there who are), but rather as part of their teachings that, as I understand it, if you want to know what your future holds, you simply have to be in the present moment and look within yourself. All the answers are within you in this moment, and you know better than any 'other' person where your future is going to be.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I've never considered him to be "New Age" myself and not really come across others who refer to him as New Age (apart from some skeptics who wouldn't recognise "New Age" if it smacked them in the face - but still they think they know better LOL!).

Eckhart is a spiritual teacher, who has taken the teachings of non-duality and living in the present, and re-marketed them in modern language for todays society. The power of Now, or living in the present moment is nothing new... and has been part of the teachings of Advaita Vedanta for as long as you can trace back... and is also the basis of the philosophy behind Hinduism. There's certainly nothing "New Age" about the teachings, just that Eckhart has given them the modern "power of Now" label for media and marketing purposes.

I didn't feel that, from what Jnani wrote, she had a poor understanding of Eckhart at all. I feel she made a perfectly valid point that, just because Oprah and Eckhart are getting these teachings 'out there' using modern media methods, doesn't make those teachings New Age... as the philosophy of Advaita Vedanta is rooted in the ancient texts of the Upanisads and the Bhagavad Gita, written in ancient sanskrit, and these are the teachings Eckhart is sharing, just without referring directly to those texts. If you like, it would be the same as someone re-writing the underlying moral teachings of the bible as a book on being good and kind to others, without mentioning God, Jesus, saints or any other such things that were used to illustrate those moral teachings in the old texts. I would class it more as "self help" than "new age".

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I have no wish to quibble about whether or not Tolle is a New Age pioneer - certainly he has been called that but such labels are not exactly hard and fast. Suffice to say that he has been instrumental in making spirituality available to many who would not ordinarily have encountered this. His notoreity and influence is firmly established.

I didn't say Tolle was original. Yes, I fully admit he borrows from other established spiritual teachings but he puts his own slant on it and - more importantly - has made it possible to access these states by giving practical details.

The reason I said Jnani had a poor understanding of Tolle was her emotive comment that he shatters the persona. This is erroneous and I have addressed that in my previous post, that is all.

The reason I said Jnani had a poor understanding of Tolle was her emotive comment that he shatters the persona. This is erroneous and I have addressed that in my previous post, that is all.

Ah, I see... well perhaps that is your own perception that it is erroneous, or even an emotive comment.

"Persona" (and hence "personality" which is derived from it) is latin and refers to a mask (or theatrical mask). A person's persona(lity) is recognised as being something that changes over time, or in different situations. People often have a "work personality" or a "home with family personality" or a "child of my parents personality" or a "parent of my children" personality etc. and this can often be seen more clearly when situations arise where we cannot be two personalities at once, for example, if our partner is invited to come along to a "works do" without our work colleagues... and we then cannot wear our work persona with our home life persona without conflict occuring.

In the teachings of non-duality (such as Eckhart teaches, though I learnt about this elsewhere myself), we learn that the persona is non-permanent and therefore not the True Self, but rather something we merely attach to. When we are being present, and our true Self, the conflict of duality is let go, and hence our true Self shines through without any false persona. This is, I believe, why Jnani stated that being close to Eckhart would shatter your persona, not an emotive statement against him, but rather indicative of the way he is able to get the teachings of non-duality/being present across and shatter the illusion that keeps us attached to our personas... which wouldn't be for the faint hearted as it would be a sudden realization... of Self Realization as it's called.

It seems, to me at least, that there may have been some misunderstanding in what was being said.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Ah, I see... well perhaps that is your own perception that it is erroneous, or even an emotive comment.

"Persona" (and hence "personality" which is derived from it) is latin and refers to a mask (or theatrical mask). A person's persona(lity) is recognised as being something that changes over time, or in different situations. People often have a "work personality" or a "home with family personality" or a "child of my parents personality" or a "parent of my children" personality etc. and this can often be seen more clearly when situations arise where we cannot be two personalities at once, for example, if our partner is invited to come along to a "works do" without our work colleagues... and we then cannot wear our work persona with our home life persona without conflict occuring.

In the teachings of non-duality (such as Eckhart teaches, though I learnt about this elsewhere myself), we learn that the persona is non-permanent and therefore not the True Self, but rather something we merely attach to. When we are being present, and our true Self, the conflict of duality is let go, and hence our true Self shines through without any false persona. This is, I believe, why Jnani stated that being close to Eckhart would shatter your persona, not an emotive statement against him, but rather indicative of the way he is able to get the teachings of non-duality/being present across and shatter the illusion that keeps us attached to our personas... which wouldn't be for the faint hearted as it would be a sudden realization... of Self Realization as it's called.

It seems, to me at least, that there may have been some misunderstanding in what was being said.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Yes it is true that Tolle addresses our ego. Jnani said that Tolle shattered the persona i.e. commonly understood to be just the public image.

To see the illusion of ego is not exactly new, e.g. it is instilled in Buddhism. Why is this so awful? Enlightenment would surely entail being in touch with our true self, our spirit. This is welcomed by those who seek to become spiritually developed.

But in Buddhism it would be said that there is a conventional self but ultimately there is non-self.

But in Buddhism it would be said that there is a conventional self but ultimately there is non-self.

The 'conventional self' in Buddhism is composed of the 5 skandhas; these are empty, i.e. having no quality, no self-possession since there is no self (anathman/anatta).

My point of the ego being an illusion is not just in Tolle's teaching but widely acknowledged in many, many spiritual teachings. To go beyond the ego and experience the spirit, as in meditation, speaks for itself as to what constitutes our true nature.

Each psychic said he didn’t have anyone else, was a lovely genuine decent person who wanted to stay with her. She met his parents and friends and everything seemed cosy. However eventually after all this she found out that he was living a double life and had another girlfriend who was pregnant (his parents and friends knew nothing about this). Imagine her devastation then having been given mis-information about the whole situation and having wasted money on psychic consultations and wasting a lot of time and investing emotions in someone who had a double life. When she found out she was ill with shock – hence my anger at the people who don’t appear to understand the problems caused if info they give out turns out to be not true. someone they loved being so desperate to get a message. I just felt it was exploititive to be honest

Hi Happygirl (I love your signature by the way! 🙂 )

I was so sorry to hear about your friend - yes a real warning. They were all obviously just saying what they thought she wanted them to say.

I spent ages looking for a testimony from a young woman who was about to enter a bigamous marriage, but I couldn't find it. She had feelings that something was wrong (which I guess your friend must have, or she wouldn't have wanted a second and third opinion)

This girl though prayed for guidance and the way she was protected was wonderful. She and her fiancee went to an island abroad on holiday together and while they were there, they went into shop and there was a couple there who he obviously knew. He left abruptly and wouldn't talk about them (it turned out that they were his wife's aunt and uncle.)

The uncle and aunt let the wife know when they got home and I can't remember how, but she managed to find the girl's mother's phone number, so all was revealed.

To me, it was awesome how they were led to go into the very place where he would be recognised. Chance? I don't think so!

While I understand that to a certain degree we are all psychic (indeed I have had feelings about things that have turned out to be true as I’m sure has happened to many people), but I’m not so sure that even some genuine psychics and mediums (and yes I do understand the difference between the two) really understand the damage that can be caused by giving mis-information (I’m obviously excluding the charlatans from this sentence who don’t care anyway).

Yes indeed - we all have spiritual discernment (we just don't all use it!)

Mary Baker Eddy has several observations about this subject. Here are just two. (Mind with a capital is a synonym for God)

Science and Health p 83:25-32

There is mortal mind-reading and immortal Mind-reading. The latter is a revelation of divine purpose through spiritual understanding, by which man gains the divine Principle and explanation of all things. Mortal mind-reading and immortal Mind-reading are distinctly opposite standpoints, from which cause and effect are interpreted. The act of reading mortal mind investigates and touches only human beliefs.

Science and Health 85:1-18

This Mind-reading is the opposite of clairvoyance. It is the illumination of the spiritual understanding which demonstrates the capacity of Soul, not of material sense. This Soul-sense comes to the human mind when the latter yields to the divine Mind.

Such intuitions reveal whatever constitutes and perpetuates harmony, enabling one to do good, but not evil. You will reach the perfect Science of healing when you are able to read the human mind after this manner and discern the error you would destroy. The Samaritan woman said: “Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?”

It is recorded that Jesus, as he once journeyed with his students, “knew their thoughts,” — read them scientifically. In like manner he discerned disease and healed the sick.

We've all had intuitions that have really helped and protected in many ways - I see them as angels, messages from God.

I've found some wonderful examples of divine Mind-reading here. The first was an interview with a stuntman. He was working in Hong Kong with Steve McQueen in this particular film. As he lay down in the sampan for a lunchtime nap, a tiny snake bit him, he shook it off, thinking it was harmless, but it was a pit viper. The practitioner he refers to is a Christian Science practitioner, someone who devotes their lives to healing people through prayer.

[url]A life free of chance*/*Christian Science Sentinel[/url]

...When I got back to the hotel, I picked up the phone and told the operator that I wanted to call Los Angeles right away, that it was important. She said, "Mr. Janes, it's going to take maybe ten to fifteen hours or two to three days to get through. It's difficult." Then she said, "Well OK, I'll try. You hang up, and I'll get back to you." She called me back one minute later. The practitioner was on the phone.
At this time I was really starting to lose consciousness. I heard her voice, but I couldn't talk back. I tried to talk, and I mumbled. So she knew who I was. She knew something was wrong, but she had no idea what.

Laurie: And what was she telling you?

Loren: I couldn't hear her. All I heard was her voice. But I felt comfort. And the pain left me instantly The practitioner told me later that after she hung up the phone, she said, "Dear God, there's something I must know. I must know what the problem is." And the story in the Bible about the viper coming out of the fire and biting Paul on the hand came to her.

Laurie: That was the answer to her prayer to know what to pray about?

Loren: Yes.

Laurie: It reminds me of the Bible passage "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." We have to go beyond a physical, mortal sense of ourselves, to a different sense of ourselves—a higher, more spiritual recognition of ourselves.

[url]Formula One racing-and prayer[/url]
He told how he had been in the crowd at the British Grand Prix that year, the same race I'd been watching on television. He, too, had had a premonition about accidents, which had prompted him to pray. We were of different nationalities, and were unknown to each other. However, we had been united on that day in our response to divine prompting. It was a humbling moment. It was also inspiring to feel that on that occasion, at least, some spectators might have made a real difference to what was happening on the racing circuit.

Love and peace,

Judy

Yes it is true that Tolle addresses our ego. Jnani said that Tolle shattered the persona i.e. commonly understood to be just the public image.

To see the illusion of ego is not exactly new, e.g. it is instilled in Buddhism. Why is this so awful? Enlightenment would surely entail being in touch with our true self, our spirit. This is welcomed by those who seek to become spiritually developed.

But that was my point. It would seem that you've taken the term "shattered" as being something awful... but nobody said it was awful. Learning from a good teacher such as Eckhart, will easily allow us to recognise the True Self, and recognise the persona is not the true self. In that sense the persona is being shattered because it is quickly removed by such good teachings.

I'm fairly sure Jnani wasn't being disparaging about Eckhart, so there wasn't anything awful in what she was saying, and that's why I feel there was a misunderstanding.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

But that was my point. It would seem that you've taken the term "shattered" as being something awful... but nobody said it was awful. Learning from a good teacher such as Eckhart, will easily allow us to recognise the True Self, and recognise the persona is not the true self. In that sense the persona is being shattered because it is quickly removed by such good teachings.

I'm fairly sure Jnani wasn't being disparaging about Eckhart, so there wasn't anything awful in what she was saying, and that's why I feel there was a misunderstanding.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I appreciate that you are trying to smooth this over but I don't feel I have misinterpreted Jnani's post #15. She did not just mention the shattering of persona but went on to say that Tolle wasn't for the 'fainthearted' and mocked his "enlightenment". I found that offensive to be honest and lacking in understanding of his teaching.

I appreciate that you are trying to smooth this over but I don't feel I have misinterpreted Jnani's post #15. She did not just mention the shattering of persona but went on to say that Tolle wasn't for the 'fainthearted' and mocked his "enlightenment". I found that offensive to be honest and lacking in understanding of his teaching.

Amy please don't feel offended.
First if you feel I have not understood his teaching, then the loss is mine. You have, thats the main thing! Why you bother to get offended is beyond me, but it is quite ok.

second, you are not Eckart Tolle and, his enlightenment is not yours, just in case you think I have mocked his enlightenment ( which I haven't btw). Why would you get offended by me "mocking his enlightenment"? I bet if I said to eckhart you fake bugger, he will probably laugh. but you are offended and upset. What can be said now?

Now if one can really see that is the highest compliment for a teacher- that being with him/her, is not for the faint of heart.. Trust me being with Eckhart Tolle is not for the faint of heart, reading his book is anybody's cup of tea though. His presence will certaionly shatter the persona. you are putting all these connotations awful etc. so much has gone into this mix!
I also didn't say reading his book is not for faint hearted either. which is what you have done, read his books. Have you been with him?
Being with a mastrer and reading their books are two different things.
So both things you have taken offence on are not applicable.

so cheer up my friend, good luck to you and all that you do

...and lastly thanks dear Energyls for trying to clarify, never mind!

Amy please don't feel offended.
First if you feel I have not understood his teaching, then the loss is mine. You have, thats the main thing! Why you bother to get offended is beyond me, but it is quite ok.

second, you are not Eckart Tolle and, his enlightenment is not yours, just in case you think I have mocked his enlightenment ( which I haven't btw). Why would you get offended by me "mocking his enlightenment"? I bet if I said to eckhart you fake bugger, he will probably laugh. but you are offended and upset. What can be said now?

Now if one can really see that is the highest compliment for a teacher- that being with him/her, is not for the faint of heart.. Trust me being with Eckhart Tolle is not for the faint of heart, reading his book is anybody's cup of tea though. His presence will certaionly shatter the persona. you are putting all these connotations awful etc. so much has gone into this mix!
I also didn't say reading his book is not for faint hearted either. which is what you have done, read his books. Have you been with him?
Being with a mastrer and reading their books are two different things.
So both things you have taken offence on are not applicable.

so cheer up my friend, good luck to you and all that you do

...and lastly thanks dear Energyls for trying to clarify, never mind!

Thanks for this post. I identify a lot with Tolle since he is my current mentor. When someone mentions enlightenment like this "enlightenment" (in quotation marks) - to me it represents mocking/undermining/questioning of this. I feel sure you would have a similar reaction if I addressed something you hold dear in this manner.

Personas are our public faces/image, i.e. cosmetic. Why would you be surprised that an authentic spiritual teacher could break through this.

I acknowledge that Tolle's books are acquired reading, i.e. not readily accessible to the vast majority.

Anyway, it is high time now for this issue to stop here - clearly a departure from the thread! Apologies to happygirl.

:offtopic: 😮 :dft001: :033:

Let there be peace.

I'm Amy and I'm an emoticonaholic...it's been 5 seconds since my last one!

Trust me being with Eckhart Tolle is not for the faint of heart, reading his book is anybody's cup of tea though. His presence will certaionly shatter the persona. you are putting all these connotations awful etc. so much has gone into this mix!
I also didn't say reading his book is not for faint hearted either. which is what you have done, read his books.

Have you been with him?

Does this mean that you have been in the presence of Eckhart, Jnani? Could you describe the persona shattering experience?