Jesus

Hi Peter,

Jesus,

The name known on the planet Earth by so many people, I don't know what the percentages are but it must be very high.

True, even for non Christians, you'd have to be pretty isolated to not have heard of the name, just as it is for Buddha or other such well known figures.

I relate to the name of Jesus as, I believe many other people do to being the Son of God, how many people here actually believe He was the Son of God, or even believe in God the Father, or again the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, or understand the Trinity?

Well, you posted in the Christianity forum, so I'm guessing most contributors to this forum will say they believe him to be the son of God. You already know I'm an atheist so, whilst I don't deny the possibility of a real person who the stories of Jesus relate to, I don't believe in God in that sense.

God is incomparable love and Truth, compared to the earthly love and truth, I believe we are just formed out of the radiations off the Creator, yet we try to set ourselves up as masters and occasionally the beginning , and look on the Earth as the center of the universe, and the starting point of all things.

Not sure how many people still believe the Earth is the center of the universe, that's quite an outdates way of thinking, though I know there are still some people who insist the Earth is flat, so it goes without saying there will be some. 😀

The beyond is just everything beyond our earthly organs,such as our eyes ears,etc.

Everything?

Jesus spoke,my Father has many mansions, surely this is reference to other levels in creation, and the first level He formed surely would be closer is to the Creator Himself, not planet Earth, smaller than a speck of sand in the universe, to put this in context, there are more stars in the sky than grains of sand on the Earth.

It may be such a reference, but in the usual interpretations, it tends to refer to the concept of heaven, and in the full verse it's referring to heaven being open to all as there is plenty of space for everyone there.

The Bible as with other books, is best read in context rather than taking single sentences out of it, otherwise you can pretty much read anything into any sentence.

[url]John 14:2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?[/url]

We are just guest here on planet Earth, we are loaned the planet and with a richly laden table at all times, we should leave it better than we found it, but we treat it like the most neglected pigsty!

Speak for youself. 😉

The planet Earth evolved over millions of years, (as science points to continuously) the closest level to God in Creation, was probably formed in seven days due to the closeness of the Creator, not planet Earth.

Yet we listen to the translations of the Bible by so many other people opinions, and believe in them in blind faith because it is easier than thinking for our self's.

So many religions or proclaiming to have the truth, yet it is only there are only intellectual interpretations, if there is only one God surely there should be only one path to Him, in one religion, teaching the truth, God is Truth, Jesus was the Way, the Truth and the Light.

IF there is only one God yes, but what if there are many gods or no god? If there is no god, does that mean people have no path to follow? If there are many gods do they have many paths to follow? And why do we need to have a path to God in the first place, if God is with us all the time?

When you say "if there is only one God surely there should be only one path to Him, in one religion, teaching the truth" then logically, because there are many religions, with, perhaps, different God(s), teaching different truths, then that statement disproves the existence of there being only one God.

re-quote:

Yet we listen to the translations of the Bible by so many other people opinions, and believe in them in blind faith because it is easier than thinking for our self's.

Completely agree, we should go on what knowledge we have, that we have experienced practically in our lives, rather than believing blindly what others tell us. It's all find people sharing their own information about what they believe to be true, but it is up to use to test that information and when we can test it and find it to be consistently true, then it becomes knowledge. Likewise, just believing in the Bible, or Buddhist Scriptures, or the Koran, or The Light of Truth or other books, is just a belief and means nothing unless we have been able to test it and find it to be true. As you say, to just take the words of these things as true is blind faith, not truth.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

I am discovering a lot of what i thought I knew about the Bible and Jesus isn't actually correct when you study the bible (as I am doing) ..... And I am doing some interesting study on the Gnostic Gospels.

Jesus actually called himself 'The son of man' and there are indications in other manuscripts from the same era as the new testament that The Jerusalem Church did NOT regard him as divine.

However I DO believe that he was divinely inspired and preached a message that many would do well to heed today. Like fairness, justice, equality and tolerance.

Hi Peter,

True, even for non Christians, you'd have to be pretty isolated to not have heard of the name, just as it is for Buddha or other such well known figures.

Well, you posted in the Christianity forum, so I'm guessing most contributors to this forum will say they believe him to be the son of God. You already know I'm an atheist so, whilst I don't deny the possibility of a real person who the stories of Jesus relate to, I don't believe in God in that sense.

Not sure how many people still believe the Earth is the center of the universe, that's quite an outdates way of thinking, though I know there are still some people who insist the Earth is flat, so it goes without saying there will be some. 😀

Everything?

It may be such a reference, but in the usual interpretations, it tends to refer to the concept of heaven, and in the full verse it's referring to heaven being open to all as there is plenty of space for everyone there.

The Bible as with other books, is best read in context rather than taking single sentences out of it, otherwise you can pretty much read anything into any sentence.

[url]John 14:2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?[/url]

Speak for youself. 😉

IF there is only one God yes, but what if there are many gods or no god? If there is no god, does that mean people have no path to follow? If there are many gods do they have many paths to follow? And why do we need to have a path to God in the first place, if God is with us all the time?

When you say "if there is only one God surely there should be only one path to Him, in one religion, teaching the truth" then logically, because there are many religions, with, perhaps, different God(s), teaching different truths, then that statement disproves the existence of there being only one God.

re-quote:

Completely agree, we should go on what knowledge we have, that we have experienced practically in our lives, rather than believing blindly what others tell us. It's all find people sharing their own information about what they believe to be true, but it is up to use to test that information and when we can test it and find it to be consistently true, then it becomes knowledge. Likewise, just believing in the Bible, or Buddhist Scriptures, or the Koran, or The Light of Truth or other books, is just a belief and means nothing unless we have been able to test it and find it to be true. As you say, to just take the words of these things as true is blind faith, not truth.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi there

you're probably right

I don't anticipate everyone just because they visit the Christian board here believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I remember on TV not too far back a priest exclaiming that he didn't believe in God, to him it was just a job perhaps to many it is similar here, many people as children were forced to go to church, and their faith is a learned a thing, not a free willed thing from the choice. And it carried on from there.

When I refer the people who believe the Earth to be the center of the universe, I should have made it clearer a lot of people believe the Earth is just starting point of the universe, and we are the only ones in the universe! Now I am normally asked for proof! Not available yet, but i don't believe it will be too long in the coming, with the advancements that are being made!

The beyond is just everything beyond the vision of our earthly organs!I would like another persons opinion of the beyond?

I refer to the planet Earth as the table, the planet supplies enough food to sustain all life I believe, it is just be greedy people that prefer hoarding wealth and preventing other people from eating in the process,and many die so people can increase their wealth,such as GM,etc.

You mention of god's, there are no other gods but only helpers of the one God, some people can only see so far, and can only see the helpers not God, perhaps if there vision expands.

When we have a painting of an artist we admire the picture, but the artist is not always with us just his works. If you knew of all the Laws in Creation or the knowledge of Creation this would not be a question,it is like having one piece of a jig saw puzzle and trying to guess the picture.

You say we need to test these books were this information to find it is true, the intellect is only a tool to the spirit, and I believe eventually we know when we are reading the truth and not false interpretations in blind faith, I believe the time to wake up to the truth comes for everyone, people can distort truth but truth cannot be changed.

Many people cannot accept the book i read , i assume because it doesn't fall in with there opinions to date,or agree with the teachings the churches teach them, yet the knowledge is for everyone, why we are here, where we go, the purpose of our being here!

Peace and Light
Peter

😉

I am discovering a lot of what i thought I knew about the Bible and Jesus isn't actually correct when you study the bible (as I am doing) ..... And I am doing some interesting study on the Gnostic Gospels.

Jesus actually called himself 'The son of man' and there are indications in other manuscripts from the same era as the new testament that The Jerusalem Church did NOT regard him as divine.

However I DO believe that he was divinely inspired and preached a message that many would do well to heed today. Like fairness, justice, equality and tolerance.

Hi

Your studies sound very interesting, I have tried to do some research over the years but I do not believe in the depth that you have.

Where you say Jesus called himself the Son of Man I do not accept there are many references to His words that Jesus uttered, and I do not believe that He actually called Himself the Son of Man, He was the Son of God.

You also say the Jerusalem church did not regard Him as Divine, who are at the churches to pass judgement on anyone other than themselves, and that is not very good, without going into detail.

Do you believe in God?

Let judgement be mine saith the Lord!

veryone who has read the New Testament, or at least the Gospels, knows of the speeches of Jesus about the “Son of Man”. One assumes in many cases, that Christ thereby expressed His own Messiah consciousness, therefore was speaking of Himself when He chose the designation “Son of Man”. Hartmut Tandinger provides proof with relevant examples from the “Holy Scriptures”, why this assumption is an error and that in reality we are dealing here with a prophecy which to date has remained incomprehensible.

[url]In the Light of Truth - Discussion Points - The Son of Man[/url]

This is the link to the proof of what I am saying, I personally believe Jesus was Divine, but as I have said in the previous thread I answered, people need all the pieces of the puzzle to form a picture, not just a few!

Peace and light
Peter

I don't anticipate everyone just because they visit the Christian board here believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I remember on TV not too far back a priest exclaiming that he didn't believe in God, to him it was just a job perhaps to many it is similar here, many people as children were forced to go to church, and their faith is a learned a thing, not a free willed thing from the choice. And it carried on from there.

True. I was brought up as a Christian when I was young, though soon found that there were so many inconsistencies etc. when reading the bible, or in what I was taught, so didn't get caught up in it, but made my own mind up from what I knew to be true from what I tested myself. Hence where I am today.

When I refer the people who believe the Earth to be the center of the universe, I should have made it clearer a lot of people believe the Earth is just starting point of the universe, and we are the only ones in the universe! Now I am normally asked for proof! Not available yet, but i don't believe it will be too long in the coming, with the advancements that are being made!

I'm not expecting proof, but I would ask which people you are referring to. I think many people on Earth are fairly accepting of the fact that the universe is so large with so many stars and planets, that it would only be through pure ego that we would consider ourselves to be the only ones in existence, or that the the Earth was the starting point (scientifically, the Earth isn't the starting point at all, of the Solar System, or the Milky Way, let alone the Universe.)

The beyond is just everything beyond the vision of our earthly organs!I would like another persons opinion of the beyond?

I'll come back to this at the end I think, as it's an interesting question.

I refer to the planet Earth as the table, the planet supplies enough food to sustain all life I believe, it is just be greedy people that prefer hoarding wealth and preventing other people from eating in the process,and many die so people can increase their wealth,such as GM,etc.

It is true there are greedy people, just as there are many other 'types' of people. Not sure what this has got to do with the topic of Jesus though. Sounds more like just a rant. :rolleyes:

You mention of God's, there are no other gods but only helpers of the one God, some people can only see so far, and can only see the helpers not God, perhaps if there vision expands.

In YOUR opinion and belief there is only one God. As you cannot prove the existence of one God, you likewise cannot disprove the existence of many Gods.

When we have a painting of an artist we admire the picture, but the artist is not always with us just his works. If you knew of all the Laws in Creation or the knowledge of Creation this would not be a question,it is like having one piece of a jig saw puzzle and trying to guess the picture.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. The 'admiration' of a picture is nothing more than a subjective personal opinion. Some may 'like' the art, some may 'dislike' the art, but at the end of the day the art is just some pigment or structure formed in a particular way, regardless of how it was created.

You say we need to test these books were this information to find it is true, the intellect is only a tool to the spirit, and I believe eventually we know when we are reading the truth and not false interpretations in blind faith, I believe the time to wake up to the truth comes for everyone, people can distort truth but truth cannot be changed.

Many people cannot accept the book i read , i assume because it doesn't fall in with there opinions to date,or agree with the teachings the churches teach them, yet the knowledge is for everyone, why we are here, where we go, the purpose of our being here!

But you choose to accept things as truth based in blind faith by what you are saying. To just read something and "know when we are reading the truth" is exactly what blind faith is, unless you have put what you are reading to the test and can know it to be true from testing. This is the definition of our language, that something is true when it is tested to be true, not just because someone says so. You cannot change the definition to meet your own requirements so that just reading some words makes something true.

Now, coming back to your earlier question...

The beyond is just everything beyond the vision of our earthly organs!I would like another persons opinion of the beyond?

What is there beyond our senses? (I assume you mean the senses when you talk of the vision of our earthly organs). We cannot know for fact that there is anything beyond our senses, in such a way that we can demonstrate that 'other' to anyone else. Even if we were to meditate and free ourselves of our attachment to senses, we can become a state of complete awareness, but we cannot impart that awareness on others, as to do that requires us to become seperate again which cannot maintain that awareness state.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

p.s. I forgot to answer this point...

Many people cannot accept the book i read , i assume because it doesn't fall in with there opinions to date,or agree with the teachings the churches teach them, yet the knowledge is for everyone, why we are here, where we go, the purpose of our being here!

It's not necessarily that people cannot accept the book you read, I think the problem people have is that the book is being 'pushed' at them as 'knowledge', yet by definition books do not contain knowledge, they contain information. Information has to be tested to become knowledge, as knowledge only exists within the individual once they have tested something, otherwise it remains information and/or belief.

As I said elsewhere, I've been reading that book, and what I read conflicts with knowledge I have, yet the information in the book provides no means or possibility to test the 'information' it shares, it just has to be taken on blind faith. As I already have knowledge that conflicts with that blind faith/information and there's no way for me to test it, I cannot find it to be true, regardless of how many times you choose to say it's the truth.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

[url]veryone who has read the New Testament, or at least the Gospels, knows of the speeches of Jesus about the “Son of Man”. One assumes in many cases, that Christ thereby expressed His own Messiah consciousness, therefore was speaking of Himself when He chose the designation “Son of Man”. Hartmut Tandinger provides proof with relevant examples from the “Holy Scriptures”, why this assumption is an error and that in reality we are dealing here with a prophecy which to date has remained incomprehensible. [/url]

[url]In the Light of Truth - Discussion Points - The Son of Man[/url]

This is the link to the proof of what I am saying,

This again raises my point. You are taking something written by someone else and now claiming this to be "proof", rather than that persons educated opinion. Two things concern me though... a) this "proof" happens to have been provided on the same "In the Light of Truth" website that you always link to, so lacks independence and b) who is Hartmut Tandinger? as I can find no reference to this person anywhere else.

Searching the web it's easy to find many references to discussions and opinions about Jesus being the Son of Man, some being suggestive that it is just another interpretation of Son of God, and some finding other meaning in it, such as saying it represented the human side of Jesus.

However, non of it is 'proof', just interesting speculation and opinions.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

p.s. I forgot to answer this point...

It's not necessarily that people cannot accept the book you read, I think the problem people have is that the book is being 'pushed' at them as 'knowledge', yet by definition books do not contain knowledge, they contain information. Information has to be tested to become knowledge, as knowledge only exists within the individual once they have tested something, otherwise it remains information and/or belief.

As I said elsewhere, I've been reading that book, and what I read conflicts with knowledge I have, yet the information in the book provides no means or possibility to test the 'information' it shares, it just has to be taken on blind faith. As I already have knowledge that conflicts with that blind faith/information and there's no way for me to test it, I cannot find it to be true, regardless of how many times you choose to say it's the truth.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Who do you think wrote the Bible? How do people know it to be the Word of God?

Peace and light
Peter

Who do you think wrote the Bible? How do people know it to be the Word of God?

I think we don't actually know who wrote the bible because it's been around so long in so many interpretations and variants, and different parts were written at different times, some apparently before the times of Jesus and some apparently after the times of Jesus.

There are also theories that the bible is a re-interpretation of older scriptures from the Easter philosophies, such as those written in, what is considered by some as the oldest of scriptures, the Upanisads and related writings.

There is certainly a lot of similarities between the writings of the bible and those within the Upanisads and Bhagavad Gita, as there is also in the Koran and also the scriptures of Buddhism, which themselves are said to have come from India originally, and made their way to Tibet, China, Japan etc.

Of course nobody can prove who wrote any of them, though the similarities are strikingly obvious to those who study them, so for anyone to say that their book is the one true book, or that the other religious or spiritual texts are false, clearly have not studied them.

People don't "know" it to be the word of God. People have "convinced" themselves or been taught by others that it is the word of God, and belief in God and the conviction of their beliefs in their church/following makes them hold onto that.

Many of the words spoken in the bible do certainly ring true (certainly don't take me as someone who's anti-bible just because I'm an atheist, quite the opposite in fact), though a lot of the way they have been written or re-interpreted over time, can clearly lead them open to interpretation in many ways, hence why there are so many offshoot religions of Christianity, all having points of disagreement with other factions.

If the words of the bible were unequivocally true as you'd expect if they were the word of God, then they would no need to be reinterpreted and they would hold true for everyone. But they don't... so on that basis, I'm confident (though cannot prove it either way) that it is not the words of God, but more a tool for spiritual and moral guidance.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Who do you think wrote the Bible? How do people know it to be the Word of God?

Peace and light
Peter

The bible consists of documents written by fallible human men and women. They were writing history - but I believe they were divinely inspired. I do believe in God. But the book accepted as the bible was put together for political reason under the direction of someone who wasn't even a Christian.

Hi Tashinie, I'm really pleased that you're delving into the roots of Christianity and the Bible and totally agree that all those dozens of books compiling the New and Old Testaments came from different individuals of differing spiritual understanding. Much of what we have today was originally oral history or oral teaching, which was passed down from generation to generation. Of course too, we don't have any original documents - only copies, although there is a great similarity between all the copies. Would love to hear some of your comments about what are considered "gnostic" gospels too.

I'm a little confused by this remark - can you explain? What was his name?

But the book accepted as the bible was put together for political reason under the direction of someone who wasn't even a Christian.

A clergyman I met once said to me that the Bible is 85% the story of men and only 15% the story of God. To me, it's a bit like delving into a mine. You have to shift a lot of rocks and rubble to find the gems, but the gems are so priceless, so unique, that to reject the whole thing would be a huge loss. I feel though that the most important thing to keep in thought when we read it, is this:

The Scriptures are very sacred. Our aim must be to have them understood spiritually, for only by this understanding can truth be gained....

It is this spiritual perception of Scripture, which lifts humanity out of disease and death and inspires faith.(Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy p 547)

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Principled the pagan who constructed the bible was Constantine at the Council of Nicea. He may have become Christian later but at the time of the council he was not.

The gnostic gospels interest me. I certainly believe in the concept of gnosis and a personal experiential approach to God. I am not one who takes readily to be told what to think!!

I haven't read them yet - but I will report what i think when I have.

May be this will put some light upon the origins of Jesus (Christ): [url]The REAL Truth About Religion And Its Origins - MUST WATCH!! [High Quality] - YouTube[/url] and it mentions Tashenie's political angle.

After watching this the question comes to my mind: JC being a representation of the Sun God, it's astrological significance and historic background leading at least to the ancient Egyptians, can this still have religious/spiritual relevance today?

RP

Hi Tashanie,

I completely agree with you here! 🙂

The bible consists of documents written by fallible human men and women. They were writing history - but I believe they were divinely inspired.

I'm glad, too, to hear of your honest investigation of the roots of the Bible and the texts that were excluded from it. My only caution would be that the words "Gnostic" and "Gnosticism" have been used for centuries as catch-all terms for many non-canonical texts and their proponents (and often used in a derogatory and dismissive way). But there was never any unified group in early Christianity called "the Gnostics". The texts considered "Gnostic" were produced by many different groups and individuals with differing ideas; not all "Gnostic" texts agree with each other, let alone with what was eventually ruled to be "orthodoxy"!

I'm not saying this to dismiss the non-canonical texts (which I'm looking forward to studying more deeply as well) - just to point out that there's no one unified theology that comes out of them. And not all of the ideas in them are any more enlightened than some of the worst parts of the canonical Bible, either! 😉

On that note, may I please just offer a correction to your later post?

the pagan who constructed the bible was Constantine at the Council of Nicea. He may have become Christian later but at the time of the council he was not.

It's true that no-one knows for sure when Constantine officially declared himself a Christian, or how sincere his commitment to his new religion really was. He left it till his deathbed to be baptised, which might say something! :rolleyes: But the point of the Council of Nicaea was to establish a unified form of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire (whether or not one believes they got it right; I certainly don't). If Constantine didn't have some degree of commitment to Christianity by 325 AD, why would he have made it the state religion of his empire and called for a council to force a consensus as to Christian doctrine?

More to the point: whatever his foibles, Constantine had nothing to do with the formation of the Bible. He had no say whatsoever in which books were decreed canonical. The commonly-accepted New Testament canon wasn't completely agreed upon until at least a couple of decades after the Council of Nicaea. It was a long and complex process influenced by the opinions of many bishops over several decades. There simply was no one person - Constantine or otherwise - who settled the official canon.

Blessings,

Charis

This again raises my point. You are taking something written by someone else and now claiming this to be "proof", rather than that persons educated opinion. Two things concern me though... a) this "proof" happens to have been provided on the same "In the Light of Truth" website that you always link to, so lacks independence and b) who is Hartmut Tandinger? as I can find no reference to this person anywhere else.

Searching the web it's easy to find many references to discussions and opinions about Jesus being the Son of Man, some being suggestive that it is just another interpretation of Son of God, and some finding other meaning in it, such as saying it represented the human side of Jesus.

However, non of it is 'proof', just interesting speculation and opinions.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi there

It is a long time since I read all these verses about the Son of Man from my website but these are passages from the new Testament referring to Jesus voicing about the Son of Man.

If people believe in the new Testament as true, this sounds a little bit strange to me picking on the person is not being an educated person, saying haven't heard of him before, but referring to the words from the new Testament that are referring to the Son Of Man, surely if these statements were put by any person on this earth, perhaps even the archbishop of Canterbury, it wouldn't make any difference to the words quoted in the new Testament about the Son of Man here, does the credibility of the person say that make them any Stronger or weaker the words in in the new Testament.

I have owned the site What Is Truth for a number of years and all the content I deem to be true!

Peace and light
Peter

The bible consists of documents written by fallible human men and women. They were writing history - but I believe they were divinely inspired. I do believe in God. But the book accepted as the bible was put together for political reason under the direction of someone who wasn't even a Christian.

Hi there
Yes I agree I believe the Bible was divinely inspired, I also believe that it was changed to suit the opinions of the churches, and parts were left out to suit them, if it didn't fall in with their teachings.

Peace and light
Peter

p.s. I forgot to answer this point...

It's not necessarily that people cannot accept the book you read, I think the problem people have is that the book is being 'pushed' at them as 'knowledge', yet by definition books do not contain knowledge, they contain information. Information has to be tested to become knowledge, as knowledge only exists within the individual once they have tested something, otherwise it remains information and/or belief.

As I said elsewhere, I've been reading that book, and what I read conflicts with knowledge I have, yet the information in the book provides no means or possibility to test the 'information' it shares, it just has to be taken on blind faith. As I already have knowledge that conflicts with that blind faith/information and there's no way for me to test it, I cannot find it to be true, regardless of how many times you choose to say it's the truth.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi there

If I was asked what I am, I would honestly say I am a spirit; my body is just a form on the gross material level that I require to use during my stay here, during this incarnation.

For many people I refer to a little story, if you have a campfire in the forests during the nights and in the morning the fire has gone out and all you have left, is a couple of dead embers and no means to reignite the fire, I refer to the fire as a person’s spirit, once it has gone out completely in is difficult to recognize anything else spiritual or bring the spirit back to life, the spirit in people for many, has been asleep for so long, the “Grail Message” I class as the means of bringing the spirit back to life, if it cannot be understood by the people who pick it up to read it, perhaps as I have already said it is not for them now.

Also we are so engrossed in material,we need it as the map to get back from whence we came.

Heed the word not the bringer!

I do not wish to appear pushy with this book, I only introduce it, whether anyone reads it or not is up to the person, only the individual can draw from it, I believe it to be the most important book on the planet Earth, it hasn't been interfered as with as the Bible has, I class it as my Bible.

The intellect is a wonderful tool, but it should only serve the spirit, the brain where the intellect comes from, was formed from the Earth and remains on the Earth when we die, as with the body!

The spirit does not stay with the body when it dies!

Peace and light
Peter

I class as the means of bringing the spirit back to life, if it cannot be understood by the people who pick it up to read it, perhaps as I have already said it is not for them now.

But if someone knows from experience that Blue has always been Blue, and someone comes along and says "Read this... it shows that the colour is Red, that is the truth", when you clearly know it to be Blue... and even if you look again to see if it's Red, but it still shows as Blue... how can we accept the text that tells us it's Red?

I do not wish to appear pushy with this book, I only introduce it, whether anyone reads it or not is up to the person, only the individual can draw from it, I believe it to be the most important book on the planet Earth, it hasn't been interfered as with as the Bible has, I class it as my Bible.

You say it's not been interefered with, but when I was looking for a copy to read, I came across several websites, each listing similar but not the same chapters, and some claiming that their translation of the book is the truest translation. a) the fact that the book has been translated means that original meaning is likely to have been lost somewhere, as languages do not tend to directly translate b) the fact that there appears to be no concensus of what consistutes the chapters of the book, indicates that there is truth missing from it and c) the fact that some 'publishers' of the material are having to claim theirs as being more true than others, indicates a conflict between them, which if it was completely true, there'd be no conflict.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

May be this will put some light upon the origins of Jesus (Christ): [url]The REAL Truth About Religion And Its Origins - MUST WATCH!! [High Quality] - YouTube[/url] and it mentions Tashenie's political angle.

After watching this the question comes to my mind: JC being a representation of the Sun God, it's astrological significance and historic background leading at least to the ancient Egyptians, can this still have religious/spiritual relevance today?

RP

Oh dear RP, I found it very hard to stay awake watching all that cleverly concocted stuff. :sleep: We have to remember that anyone can put just about anything onto the internet and present it as fact.

For a start, the compiler is that well-known and respected religion professor and historian (I don’t think!) ‪zombiehellmonkey. If you look at his other presentations, it’s very obvious that the man is a conspiracy theorist.

He accuses Jews and Christians of plagiarising, but that whole video takes images and videos from others. He presents “facts” as if they were just that, but they aren’t – just a lot of concocted rubbish, with no sources to back them up – just here-say.

Take one little thing. Zombie Hell Monkey tells us that the ancient Christian sign of the fish was a link to Pisces and the astrological basis of the Jesus story. It wasn’t! The early Christians were being persecuted and they had to go undercover and use codes. The first letters (or sounds) for the Greek word for fish (ICHTUS) is an acronym for "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior"

This is from Straight Dope – I deliberately didn’t try to find a Christian explanation for you! Cecil Adams discusses various sources of disinformation about Jesus, including:

…Gerald Massey, a poet and self-taught Egyptologist who published a massive work entitled Ancient Egypt, The Light of the World shortly before his death in 1907.

Massey argues that the Judeo-Christian tradition borrowed heavily from Egyptian mythology and that the “Jesus-legend” in particular was based on Horus. He lists 269 alleged parallels between the two figures, including those mentioned in the Maher movie. Massey contends Jesus and Christianity were concocted in Rome based on myths borrowed from Egyptian gnostics.

Why would the Romans do this? Massey doesn’t explicitly say, and later authors aren’t much clearer. The best I can make out is that Christianity as we know it was invented to help the Roman emperor Constantine control the masses.

…If it all sounds pretty crazy, nothing Gerald Massey has to say will convince you it’s sane. The man was an eccentric whose work has never been taken seriously by scholars. His book is a weird mix of historical speculation, philology, and theorizing about the precession of the zodiac, all presented as fact with minimal supporting evidence.

Massey’s attempt to demonstrate that Jesus is merely a rewrite of Horus is tortured….

[url]The Straight Dope: Was Jesus copied from the Egyptian god Horus?[/url]

Of course all religious worship had its origins in sun, nature and astrological worship. That was as far as primitive man could manage to explain anything, but it doesn’t make it true! For instance, they might have seen a bolt of lightning striking a village and come to the wrong assumption that the god of thunder was punishing the villages for wrong doing. Later, they might have decided that in order to placate the gods, they had to sacrifice children as a peace offering etc. There was worship of many gods – all having different purposes. And yes, millennia later, when the Roman church was established to replace pagan worship, they did take on many of the rituals, festivals and even dates of the previous, but none of that actually bears much relevance to the inner enlightenment that Jesus was preaching and proving.

All this talk of disproving Jesus is on very shallow ground. Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that he existed, but above all, anyone who has actually read the 4 gospels and the book of Acts, will see that these were real people, facing problems just like us, but being shown the solution. Even in the Straight Dope article above, Adams says this:

The real difference between Egyptian mythology and the story of Jesus is that the former is clearly a fable full of beings with super powers, whereas the latter is told in realistic terms with the occasional miracle thrown in.

So he’s an atheist or agnostic and doesn’t believe that any of the great works in the Bible took place – well, he should for instance, have a look at the nearly 140 years record of healing through prayer that we have in Christian Science. No we don’t have a 100% success record of healing (neither do doctors and hospitals), but here is the proof to me that there is a power higher than medical beliefs and laws. Here is a study done of twenty years’ worth of healings that had been sent in for publication (which is only the tip of the iceberg as far as the healings go). [DLMURL="http://www.johnsonfund.org/empirical.html"]Analysis of Medical Evidence in Christian Science Testimonies of Healing[/DLMURL]

Over 20,000 healings were analyzed, but only those that had been medically diagnosed and/or the cure verified were included – some 2,337.

The healings included 27 of malignancy or cancer, 42 of tumors, 16 of polio, 68 of tuberculosis, 38 of pneumonia and double pneumonia, 88 of heart disorders, 23 of kidney disorders, 203 of broken bones, 71 of childbirth complications, 16 of scarlet fever, 16 of rheumatic fever, 11 of cataract, 12 of diabetes, 13 of pernicious anemia, 12 of rheumatoid or degenerative arthritis, 2 of gangrene, 3 of glaucoma, 7 of hepatitis, 3 of leukaemia, 6 of multiple sclerosis, 7 of blindness,, 48 of other vision deficiencies such as astigmatism or nearsightedness, 13 of goiter, 8 of curvature of the spine, 13 of epilepsy, 3 of crossed eyes, 1 cleft palate.

These healings do not fit what a physician in The New England Journal of Medicine called a “mechanistic and reductionistic” model of health, but as a church official has written, they “constitute evidence that can and should be taken seriously by rational people …. If the evidence doesn’t fit the model, the need is to reexamine the model, not arbitrarily deny the evidence!”

If, using universal spiritual laws that Mary Baker Eddy found in the Bible and set down in her ground-breaking book "Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures" brings cures like this today (brought forth entirely through prayer) why should we think that they didn’t happen 2,000 and more years ago? That Christian healing continues today is my evidence that Jesus came to show us an entirely different way of thinking and living that would free us from all material limitations and suffering. Sadly, the vital spark of his teaching was largely lost, but that is another story..........

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy

We have to remember that anyone can put just about anything onto the internet and present it as fact.

True, discrimination and mental filtering of the internet is important but the video happens to voice my opinion.

For a start, the compiler is that well-known and respected religion professor and historian (I don’t think!) ‪zombiehellmonkey. If you look at his other presentations, it’s very obvious that the man is a conspiracy theorist.

The name of a Youtube account holder is not important. And is there anything wrong with having conspiracy theories? Sometimes they become fact, like recent current affairs have shown especially with the Snowden case.

He accuses Jews and Christians of plagiarising, but that whole video takes images and videos from others. He presents “facts” as if they were just that, but they aren’t – just a lot of concocted rubbish, with no sources to back them up – just here-say.

There are loads of facts in this video which I come across in my readings. The sources are out there if anyone wishes to investigate further.

Take one little thing. Zombie Hell Monkey tells us that the ancient Christian sign of the fish was a link to Pisces and the astrological basis of the Jesus story. It wasn’t! The early Christians were being persecuted and they had to go undercover and use codes. The first letters (or sounds) for the Greek word for fish (ICHTUS) is an acronym for "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior"

Yes true that the early Christians used such codes, but talk to an astrologer and they will also backup the idea of the precessions: age of Taurus, Aries, Pisces and then Aquarius. So may be the symbol of the fish signifies both, increasing its potency as a symbol.

I never read Gerald Massey's book so can't comment. As for mainstream Egyptologists (and other historians and archaeologists), I find a lot of their theories bonkers (like the pyramids being massive tombs) and they are conveniently covering up facts. But the fact remains that many ancient mythologies and beliefs contain similar words and principles.

On a personally level I not bothered whether Jesus existed for real or not. Same goes for the Buddha and other very wise characters like Lao Tsu. Perennial wisdom being more important than characters in a story, whether historic or not! As for Jesus being a son of god, well in that case we are all sons and daughters of god, as the creative matrix* is in us all. But being emphatic and trying to feel what its like to walk in others shoes ;), sometimes we may need a point of reference through the drizzly mists of our lives, enabling us to navigate through.

Lovely to hear about Christian Science's healing success rate. But many people through out the world have find healing beyond physical intervention. Why is this I ask myself? The conclusion I've come to that tapping into the resources of the creative matrix in and around us provides the degree of vitality necessary to heal.

Best wishes

RP

*which I visualise as a moving giant ocean wave but on a cosmic scale 😎

True, discrimination and mental filtering of the internet is important but the video happens to voice my opinion.

Hi RP,

Of course you have every right to your own opinions, but that doesn't make them historical fact! It appears (from what you say above) that credible source material and reliable research don't count for anything, so long as this video (or books or internet sites) happen to say what you want to hear? I'm sorry, RP, but that is not an attitude any serious and honest thinker and spiritual seeker - of any background - could ever hold for long.

The "information" on that video seems to be identical to that in "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur, which in turn is taken from the theories of Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963) and two earlier writers (Godfrey Higgins [1771-1834] and Gerald Massey [1828-1907]), (who the Straight Dope article mentioned). All three men argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. Perhaps you got your "facts" from that book or others who are quoting those 3 authors above, without realising they are not credible sources?

According to Harpur, there is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever lived. He claims that virtually all of the details of the life and teachings of Jesus have their counterpart in Egyptian religious ideas. He does not quote any contemporary Egyptologist or recognized academic authority on world religions nor appeal to any of the standard reference books in Egyptology or to any primary sources. Rather, he is entirely dependent on the work of Kuhn (and Higgins & Massey).

Who is Alvin Boyd Kuhn? He is given the title ‘Egyptologist’ and is regarded by Harpur as “one of the single greatest geniuses of the twentieth century” [who] “towers above all others of recent memory in intellect and his understanding of the world’s religious.”

As it turns out, Kuhn was a high school language teacher who was an enthusiastic proponent of Theosophy, a prodigious author and lecturer, who self-published most of his books.
- See more at: [url]History News Network[/url]

I remember having a rather heated disagreement with someone who was proclaiming that Jesus was a vegan!!!!!! Quite apart from the fact that he was a Jew and definitely ate fish and also would have eaten the Passover lamb....On investigation, it turned out to be another whacky Victorian, this time saying that he had dreamed that Jesus visited him and gave him all this information. Sorry, but dreams and visions are not credible evidence, no matter how many people would like to believe in these fantasies.
*

The name of a Youtube account holder is not important.

Well, if someone expects to be taken seriously as a source of credible information, then it's not unreasonable to expect that they will use their real name. Or even if they do use a pseudonym, that they will pick one that is a LITTLE more suggestive of sound education and trustworthiness than "zombiehellmonkey"... :rolleyes:

And is there anything wrong with having conspiracy theories? Sometimes they become fact, like recent current affairs have shown especially with the Snowden case.

Fair enough, but for any conspiracy to "become fact", it must above all be supported by provable*facts. Which this particular theory (about Jesus being a myth concocted by the Romans) demonstrably is not.

...the fact remains that many ancient mythologies and beliefs contain similar words and principles.

I totally agree that many ancient teachings contain similar principles, and that many people throughout the world have found healing beyond physical intervention. Whatever explanations we accept for this - and that's something we all have every right to differ on - this indisputably points to a higher power at work in the universe, which we're all, in our own ways, doing our best to understand and tap into. That's something we can all agree on, don't you think? 🙂

As for Jesus being a son of god, well in that case we are all sons and daughters of god,...

I agree - and that's precisely what I believe Jesus came to prove to all of us. As he himself said after his triumph over death: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17)

Love and peace,

Judy

That's OK Judy, I will be popping into Truro cathedral on Friday to light a candle to the statue of the Goddess Isis (the Black Madonna) and reconsider my thoughts and actions 😉

You say it's not been interefered with, but when I was looking for a copy to read, I came across several websites, each listing similar but not the same chapters, and some claiming that their translation of the book is the truest translation. a) the fact that the book has been translated means that original meaning is likely to have been lost somewhere, as languages do not tend to directly translate b) the fact that there appears to be no concensus of what consistutes the chapters of the book, indicates that there is truth missing from it and c) the fact that some 'publishers' of the material are having to claim theirs as being more true than others, indicates a conflict between them, which if it was completely true, there'd be no conflict.

Hi
I've meant to reply to this part of this for a while now, it has been in the back of my mind and I had to do some homework to find it it's been so long since I last replied on this thread.

I stated that it had not been interfered with as the Bible has many times I believe.

I would like to clarify on this with respect to your findings, the original book by the author was in German, and had to be translated into other languages for other people to be able to read it, being I believe the most important book on the planet, it had to be translated properly from its original language.

The Author says this at the front of the Book-

"This Book “In The Light of Truth”, The Grail Message, by Abd-Ru-Shin, contains the translation according to the sense of the original German text.
In the translation the expressions and sentences used by Abd-Ru-Shin to mediate the Living Word to the human spirit can only be rendered approximately.

The reader should therefore realise that this translation cannot replace the original.

However, if he makes the effort-as is desired by the Author-to absorb the contents intuitively, he will recognise the significance of this work for mankind, despite the deficiencies are rising out of a translation."

I believe that if the seeker could read it in German, the original book they would gain more than in the translation of it, as the author states.

It is not the original book that has been changed but only the translations and many of the translations I believe are improved on over the years to match with the original German version, such as the meaning of words changing,gay used to be a happy person.

But nothing is changed from the original in German, I have a copy but I cannot read German

I even have it in Chinese, also I believe somewhere in Japan it is kept in a temple because they recognize the value of its contents.

Peace and light
Peter