This is a new thread that has come out of the Age of the earth in the Bible thread and is in response to Ace88’s remarks below.
I have been reading the inspiring book “The Gentle Art of Blessing” by Pierre Pradervand and this sentence stood out to me:
[COLOR="Sienna"]
“…truth resides first and foremost in demonstration, in the truth lived, in a state of consciousness, and not in dogmas, rituals, or sacred books.”
I think the Bible is meant to be taken literally, but that the Old Testament dealing with the Israelites was replaced by the New Covenant, after Christ's death.
Fist of all Ace, a little observation. I notice that many Christians speak (as you just have) about “after Jesus’ death”, as if that was the end of the story? I always think of (and speak of) “after his resurrection and ascension”. Just puzzled, that’s all. :confused:
The Bible doesn't have many contradictions. Just because there are verses we don't understand, doesn't make them contradictions. There have been some contradictions scientists claimed for years from the Bible that later - the Bible turned out to be right. One of them was I think about James and had to do with dates, but the scientists didn't realize there were two James, not one, but discovered this later through archaeology. Many of these so-called contradictions are taken out of context, without reading the entire passage, and many others can be explained.
Many of these so-called contradictions are taken out of context, without reading the entire passage.. .
I totally sympathise about taking things out of context! Christian apologetics always take Mary Baker Eddy’s words about Jesus’ time in the tomb out of context and make it look as if she believed he never died on the cross! Yet anyone actually studying the original source material would know that this is a deliberate falsehood, designed to discredit her and Christian Science.
Anyway, back to the Bible:
From The Interpreter’s Dictionary (Vol. 4, pp. 594-595):
“It has been estimated that these manuscripts ... differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher.”
“Many thousands of these different readings are variants in orthography or grammar or style and have no effect upon the meaning of the text. But there are many thousands which have a definite effect upon the meaning of the text.”
And here is an academic, fairly balanced critique from Evangelical Textual Criticism of a book written by someone who used to believe that the Bible was inerrant, which is worth reading Ace (and yes, I am aware that books have been published trying to refute Ehrman’s observations, but this critique concedes that he makes some important points):
[url] Review of Bart Ehrman, Misquoting Jesus[/url]
This is an excerpt from the book:
"Not only do we not have the originals [of the books of the New Testament], we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later -- much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, in many thousands of places. As we will see later in this book, these copies differ from one another in so many places that we don't even know how many differences there are. Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.
"Most of these differences are completely immaterial and insignificant. A good portion of them simply show us that scribes in antiquity could spell no better than most people can today (and they didn't even have dictionaries, let alone spell check)."
From: Misquoting Jesus: the story behind who changed the Bible and why By Bart D. Ehrman pages 10-11
There’s a lecture by the author on this subject here:
[DLMURL] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=397006836098752165 [/DLMURL] (99 min)
This is the beginning of the talk (10 min)
(and there are some fascinating other videos on this page!)
Spelling errors matter hugely, especially from the Hebrew, where one vowel can make all the difference to the meaning. I like the Amplified Bible for this reason as it tries to give all the possible meanings.
More serious are parts that it is believed may have been altered in order to back up various doctrines. For instance, take the text from 1 John 5:
KJV - 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth], the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
* [Words in brackets and italics] = The 16th Century additions to (corruptions of) what was in the original text of the New Testament.
* Words in bold font = The correct original wording of 1Jo 5:7,8……….For additional details regarding the corruption of the Textus Receptus that was the basis of the Greek text used by the KJV translators, browse . Below is an excerpt from that article.
Conservative biblical scholar F.F. Bruce (History of the English Bible, Third Edition, New York: Oxford University Press, 1978, pages 141-142) explains the sad history of how 1Jo 5:7-8 had been errantly added to Erasmus' Greek text:
The words ["in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth."] omitted in the R.V. [Revised Version, 1881] were no part of the original Greek text, nor yet of the Latin Vulgate in its earliest form. They first appear in the writings of a Spanish Christian leader named Priscillian, who was executed for heresy in A.D. 385. Later they made their way into copies of the Latin text of the Bible. When Erasmus prepared his printed edition of the Greek New Testament, he rightly left those words out, but was attacked for this by people who felt that the passage was a valuable proof-text for the doctrine of the Trinity.
At the end of the day though, we can get so fixated on words (on the letter) that we miss the whole glory, the wonder, the power, the inspiration, the meaning and purpose of the Bible (the spirit). A vicar said to me that the Bible is about 70% about man and history and about 30% about God. It's the truth BEHIND the words that is divine. It's not every single (sometimes contradictory) word that the Bible says, but what it DOES - the inspired Word (not every literal one!) lifts us up to a higher place where we find God healing and salvation. Paul said in II Cor 3:
[COLOR="Purple"]..the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
and that was what Mary Baker Eddy was trying to explain too::
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But mistakes could neither wholly obscure the divine Science of the Scriptures seen from Genesis to Revelation, mar the demonstration of Jesus, nor annul the healing by the prophets, who foresaw that "the stone which the builders rejected" would become "the head of the corner. " (Science and Health 139)
The Scriptures are very sacred. Our aim must be to have them understood spiritually, for only by this understanding can truth be gained. (Science and Health 547)
Love and peace,
Judy
I think the Bible simply teaches wisdom through example and is not meant to be taken literally. How can you take something literally that has been translated from ancient texts through various languages and times and with different interpretations by the "scholars" that have written it. If it were that simple then every copy of the bible would read exactly the same... but we know that isn't the case.
Personally I believe the source of all the religious texts goes back to the ancient "upanisads" and the "vedas" (such as the bhagavad gita and rg veda) etc. These are purported to be the most ancient of teachings and, if we study such texts we can see how the other religious texts could have been developed from such wise teachings, and why there are such great similarities between things like the Bible and the Koran etc.
I believe, simply, if we take things literally, we do not allow ourselves room for spiritual growth.
All Love and Reiki Hugs
Bart Ehrman.
Here is a rebuttal to his supposed variant texts. Looks like he has a history of looking at one text and ignorning texts coming before or after it, or in other passages of Scripture, that make it much clearer to explain the variation. The scary part about Ehrman's book is that it would make the average lay person think there are tons of errors in the Bible, but it would not convince the average textual critic.
The Bible is the only book that was written over a 1,500 year span, had more than 40 authors from every walk of life, was written in different places, at different times, in different moods, on different continents, and in 3 languages. We have close to 25,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament today. In contrast, Homer's Iliad is second with 643. To be skeptical of these books would allow all classical antiquity to slip into obscurity. In no other case also, is the interval of time between the compositon of the book and the earliest existing manuscripts less than it is than with the Bible (at most 225 yrs, but fragments of it can be found within 50 yrs). The Iliad was 400 yrs, Caesar's Gallic Wars was 1,000 years. Look how many languages, even early on, that the Bible has been coverted into.
Let's look at early Patristic Quotations of the New Testament. Justin Martyr quoted the NT 330 times, Irenaeus 1,819 times, Clement 2,406 times, Origen 17,992 times, Tertullian 7,258 times, Hippolytus 1,378 times, and Eusebius 5,176 times. These give support to the existance of the 27 authoritative books of the NT canon. There are so many quotes the entire New Testament could be reproduced by these quotes alone.
Failures to interpret Scripture are usually caused by common errors. Assuming that the unexplained is unexplainable. Sometimes people simply making fallible interpretations, but that doesn't conclude that there is fallible revelation. There is often not understanding the context of the passage, who is being spoken to, where, and the verses coming before and after the verses, as well as what other biblical passage say on the subject. Difficult passages need to be interpreted in light of clearer passages on the subject. An error in a copy does not indicate an error in the original.
The writers of the New Testament were primary sources. They were eyewitnesses, many of whom lived and weren't present when Christ was alive and when He was crucified and rose again. (II Peter 1:16 - "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." Read also, Luke 1:1-3, I John 1:3, Acts 2:22, John 19:35, Luke 3:1, Acts 26:24-26) These events were written down not a century or more after the events they described, but during the lifetimes of those involved in the accounts themselves.
In short, I could continue, but I do think the Bible is infallible and trustworthy.
Does this mean, that anyone who need to study the Bible can't be a Christian.- Like someone who study mathematics is not a mathematician. Or can someone be a Christian without understanding the Bible, or people who can't read? Regards Meta
Hi Meta,
Of course people can learn the teachings of the Bible without studying it. They can attend Church and believe in God and call themselves a Christian because they believe in Christian principles. Someone could be brought up on Christian principles without having studied one chapter of the Bible itself.
This is no different to someone learning to count and do sums without studying to be a Mathematician. I know a lot about mathematics and use it all the time in my job, but I'm not a mathematician. Likewise I understand a lot about the teachings of the bible and other religions, but I don't study them, though I have researched parts of them for understanding wisdom; the only difference being that I don't call myself Christian because I don't believe in God and the Christian teachings as typically portrayed by the various churches (typically the idea the God is something seperate from ourselves and something to be worshipped and feared, and yes, yes, I know that's not all churches)
All Love and Reiki Hugs
Hello Ace,
Gosh it's taken you since May to answer this - I had rather given up!
Just found a well-researched and written and thought-through article here:
The Modern Inerrancy Debate it's from THE VOICE is the Internet web site of CRI/Voice, Institute, a global and ecumenical ministry dedicated to providing biblical and theological resources for growing Christians.
Love and peace,
Judy
The Bible is the only book that was written over a 1,500 year span, had more than 40 authors from every walk of life, was written in different places, at different times, in different moods, on different continents, and in 3 languages. Snipped>>
<<In short, I could continue, but I do think the Bible is infallible and trustworthy.
Hi Ace.
Those two statements don't really tally do they?
As for your belief that the bible is infallable, do I take it that you believe the tales of talking snakes, talking donkeys, pregnant virgins and a global flood are true?
Look at the gospels for instance. They are supposedly the inspired word of god.
So how come we have four versions of the Crucifixion.
Four versions of the resurrection.
Four versions of the ascension.
They can't all be true can they. So which one is true and why? Or perhaps none of them are?
Hi Ace.
Those two statements don't really tally do they?
As for your belief that the bible is infallable, do I take it that you believe the tales of talking snakes, talking donkeys, pregnant virgins and a global flood are true?
Look at the gospels for instance. They are supposedly the inspired word of god.
So how come we have four versions of the Crucifixion.
Four versions of the resurrection.
Four versions of the ascension.
They can't all be true can they. So which one is true and why? Or perhaps none of them are?
I believe in the global flood and all that stuff. To be honest, if there really was a global flood, it would have changed the earth far faster than evolutionists like to say with all their millions of years. And about every ancient civilization of peoples has a story about a global flood..why is that? As for four versions of Jesus life, it's just that the authors chose to emphasize different parts of the stories. It's not that the stories contradict each other. Some include parts that others do not, while some omit parts that others incude. But they all tell the same story...they don't contradict one another.
I believe in the global flood and all that stuff. To be honest, if there really was a global flood, it would have changed the earth far faster than evolutionists like to say with all their millions of years. And about every ancient civilization of peoples has a story about a global flood..why is that?
Collective memory of inundation of low lying areas at the end of the last ice age? About 14000 years ago there was a rapid rise is sea level which would have affected coastal and riverside settlements (usually the most densely populated areas) all over the world.
A good friend of mine is an evangelical Christian. He told me once that dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't make it onto the ark. He also believes that fossils were formed when the waters of the Flood squashed the dinosaurs against rocks. :dft002:
When he told me this I thought that there can't be many people who seriously study geology and then go on to become evangelical Christians.
Reading Bible stories literally does not do them justice. If you take many of them on face value much of their depth of meaning is lost, especially so in regard to Genesis and Revelations.
Perhaps you would be interested in reading Paramahansa Yogananda's '[url]The Second Coming of Christ: The Resurrection of the Christ Within You'[/url]
"A masterpiece of spiritual revelation....As Yogananda delves into the life and background of Jesus, it becomes clear that the Gospels contain a universal esoteric message that has been awaiting full and systematic explication since the apostolic age. In Yogananda's commentary, what had been veiled, obscure, and oblique is fully disclosed."
Somehow, Ace, I get the impression that you probably wouldn't be interested, but that's OK. Each to their own. 🙂
Yogananda said, "In titling this work The Second Coming of Christ, I am not referring to a literal return of Jesus to Earth. He came two thousand years ago and, after imparting a universal path to God's kingdom, was crucified and resurrected; his reappearance to the masses now is not necessary for the fulfillment of his teachings.
What is necessary is for the cosmic wisdom and divine perception of Jesus to speak again through each one's own experience and understanding of the infinite Christ Consciousness that was incarnate in Jesus. That will be his true Second Coming."
As someone who was brought up an atheist, but chose later in life that they is a spiritual dimension, I feel pretty luckily. Why? Because I wasn't brought up a Christian and haven't had a need to follow such path and haven't been subjected to so much brainwashing.
But with a life long interest in religions and belief systems I have come to the conclusion that:
The man called Jesus in the NT book never existed. There is no historical records.
This character called Jesus and the background story is a mix of many different belief systems, not just Jewish, but European, Eygptian, and Eastern philosophies.
Christainity was an invention of the Roman power class, as a means of controlling the masses.
You take away the resurrection idea out of Christianity, the whole religion falls apart.
Christians talk about having a personal relationship with Jesus. This is due to a clever thing that the Romans did by making it into a personality cult.
The Bible may have a bit of historical stuff here and there including folk memory of a flood (end of the ice age of course), but that doesn't mean that the Bible is the up holder of the truth.
Arguing over books like the Da Vinci Code is pointless, as Jesus never existed. It wasting time over red herrings, I feel the same about 2012.
But if someone say to me that the Bible and the Jesus story is mythology. That it is meant to be symbolic and not to be taken literally, and has ancient wisdom programmed into it, then I would take them more seriously.
As for morality and acts of good works by Christians over a 1000 years, will that is to do with the innate goodness within humanity itself. It is the deep down inner self with unconditional love radiating outward that shines. This aspect of our being is beyond belief systems, even though belief may initially help when walking on a spiritual path.
Isn't there is Zen saying, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him." Isn't this a way of saying that don't too get attached to your belief system, including science, the bible and the age of the earth!
RP
The man called Jesus in the NT book never existed. There is no historical records.
There are extensive records in India of the time Jesus (Issa in India) spent there between the ages of 13 and 30. They describe his movements and teachings there, and are quite compelling. Also, in modern times several Indian mystics have described their encounters with the person called Jesus.
But as you say, Reiki Pixie, none of this is anything to get worked up about. We know what we know when we need to know it. 🙂
Hi Bf
An interesting point which I have heard of before. But like i said Christianity is a mix of different systems and Jesus being a composite character can of course include Issa, and not forgetting Osiris, Mithra, Kristna and many more.... What the Romans (the ones on top the social ladder) is put together a universal religion to satisfy the spiritual needs of the populace.
I'm sure I read a saying once that said about the bible which went something like: there is a few that know, a few more that think they know, and every one else takes literally!
Best Wishes
RP
Christianity is a mix of different systems and Jesus being a composite character can of course include Issa, and not forgetting Osiris, Mithra, Kristna and many more
The philosophy of Sanathana Dharma explains that the same Truth underlies all religions; we are all spiritually united like drops of water in the ocean, and we all come from the same Source. The great World teachers all speak with the same authority and they all repeat the same fundamental message that God is Love. It seems we keep forgetting. 🙂
You're right in saying that the Romans did a fair bit of editing of the Bible, and much of it for political reasons of the time. Yogananda (I mentioned him previously) shed a lot of light on what has gone from it. An abbreviated version of the book I mentioned is [url]The Yoga of Jesus: Understanding the Hidden Teachings of the Gospels.[/url]
Hello Barafundle,
I’m sure you would agree with these words of Mary Baker Eddy’s:
[COLOR="Blue"]God is universal; confined to no spot, defined by no dogma, appropriated by no sect. Not more to one than to all, is God demonstrable as divine Life, Truth, and Love; and His people are they that reflect Him--that reflect Love. (Miscellaneous Writings 150)
Love and peace,
Judy
Hello Reiki Pixie,
I wrote this thread for Ace 88 to simply try to explain why to me some parts of the Bible (like the Adam and Eve allegory and the book of Job for example) can’t be taken literally, but that they are there as metaphorical teachings. Also, the Old Testament in many places reflected the national idea of those times that Jehovah was a tribal deity, with human emotions, changeable, judgmental but also loving. I was simply trying to explain to Ace why I feel we should take the INSPIRED parts of the Bible – those parts that comfort, protect, inspire, enlighten and heal. But that we do not have to accept every single word literally, especially as many different parts of the Bible contradict each other (especially when it comes to the nature of God)
What I did not expect was such hostility towards Christianity! Being brought up in the Christian tradition to me was not being brain washed, it was finding answers whenever I had a need, whether that need was physical, mental or emotional.
There’s an enormous amount of evidence for the history of the Bible, including Jesus, but record keeping wasn’t like it is todaqy and in AD 70 the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, so it’s quite possible that what may have been solid “evidence’ was destroyed. Here are some links.
this has historical statements mainly about the early Christians
I wonder how those writers with an agenda to wipe Jesus out of history can explain why the early Christians grew in numbers though they faced persecution and death. A myth wouldn’t make you b e willing to face persecution, torture and even death!l You surely had to have solid proof that what was being taught was true. Personally, I think it all boils down to healing, which was a normal and natural part of Christianity until the Ad 300’s when the Church of Rome was established and inspiration became smothered in ritual, tradition and dogma.
Irenaeus, the leader of an important Christian group in provincial Gaul in the second century; wrote that many newcomers came to Christian meeting places hoping for miracles, and some found them: “We heal the sick by laying hands on them, and drive out demons,” …”We even raise the dead, many of whom are still alive among us and completely healthy.”
Because primitive Christianity with its lost element of healing has been restored through Christian Science, I have no problem believing in all the great works in the Bible; including Jesus’ virgin birth, resurrection and ascension. If healings are happening today, why on earth would it have been a myth for them to have happened 2,000 years ago?
To me, the priceless importance of the Bible is not in its history, its archaeology, but in its effects on the lives of men and women.
This author cites the experience of one of her former students who had attended a Bible course, but was not very interested. A couple of years later, there he was at a Bible seminar she was taking:
.. I was frankly amazed to see him at a Bible seminar, on a Saturday morning, voluntarily. But there he was; and at break time, he took me aside to tell his story.
After graduation his career sped down the fast track. Soon his life included just about every imaginable luxury. But it also included drugs. And then, just as suddenly, his life fell apart and he lost everything—job, money, family. One night, he checked into a motel. He’d brought a gun with him, thinking he’d make this the end of the road.
He sat on the bed for a couple of minutes, he said, just letting his thought wander. It wandered back to his Old Testament class. He recalled some of the ideas we’d talked about—especially God’s presence and steadfast love. That’s when he noticed the Gideon Bible in his room.
He picked it up and began to read at random, then more deliberately. He reviewed the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 and the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5–7.
At that moment, despite years of indifference, the words spoke directly to his heart. He decided to give life one more try. He took up the active study of Christian Science, was healed of the substance addiction, refocused his career and found hope again.
To me, that experience reveals the heart of the Bible. Its true value to mankind is not found in archaeology, in theological debate or in rigid doctrine. It is found, simply, in salvation. Spiritual transformation and salvation that happens one life at a time.
[url] The heart of the Bible[/url]
We may disagree with the way the Bible has been interpreted by some individuals, but to reject it out of hand is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Here is a thoughtful article:
When I was 20, my father passed on. I went to the minister of the church and asked him why my father had to die so young. The minister was compassionate, but he also said, “It is God’s will.” That didn’t seem to be in sync with what I had been reading in the Bible, so for some time I thought about what he had said.
But the more I thought about it, the less sense it made to me, because I knew from the stories in the Old and New Testaments that the Bible characters, including Jesus and his disciples, were saved from dire situations. There were accounts of folks healed of life-threatening diseases, and even the dead being raised. Was this in contravention of God’s will?
Dissatisfied, I began a search into the religions and philosophies of the world. I dug deeper into various Bible translations, and eventually got so caught up in this study that I decided to go for a theological degree, which I received.
During this search, I came across a book titled Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy. The words Key to the Scriptures stood out to me. It occurred to me that this book might help me understand the Bible promises better, and catch a glimpse of how I could live and heal the way those people of the Bible healed.
As I read Science and Health, it became clear to me that it was written by a highly intelligent and spiritually minded woman, who was well versed in the Bible. Her book shed light on my own grasp of the ideas in the Bible and helped me expand my understanding of the significance of those Bible stories and healings through its explanation of God, and of man as God’s likeness.
[url] The Bible in my life: One man's search[/url]
And here’s another which brings out the practicality of the Bible.
[url] An 'I can, too' book[/url]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]
"To me, that experience reveals the heart of the Bible. Its true value to mankind is not found in archaeology, in theological debate or in rigid doctrine. It is found, simply, in salvation. Spiritual transformation and salvation that happens one life at a time."
Love and peace,
Judy
Hello Barafundle,
I’m sure you would agree with these words of Mary Baker Eddy’s:
God is universal; confined to no spot, defined by no dogma, appropriated by no sect. Not more to one than to all, is God demonstrable as divine Life, Truth, and Love; and His people are they that reflect Him--that reflect Love. (Miscellaneous Writings 150)
Love and peace,
Judy
I do very much agree with those words, Judy. I thought I'd have a look to see whether Yogananda had ever mentioned Mary Baker Eddy and it seems that he was an admirer...
Swami Yogananda in his East-West magazine for the issue of May-June 1926 in his article 'Christian Science and Hindu Philosophy' says:
“It may be of much interest to many Christian Scientists to learn that the great founder of their faith, Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy, was a student of the Hindu scriptures. This fact is shown by her quotations from them in her Science and Health up to the 33rd edition. We find in this edition the following excerpt (I show one here but she quoted others) from Sir Edwin Arnold's translation of the Bhagavad Gita:
'Never the Spirit was born; the Spirit shall cease to be never;
Never the time it was not; End and Beginning are dreams!
Birthless and deathless and changeless remaineth the Spirit forever;
Death hath not touched it at all, dead though the house of it seems!'
Christian Science is a new presentation of truths the Hindus first preached long ago. By emphasizing the power of mind over body, and the dreamlike nature of this phenomenal world, Christian Science has awakened many matter-bound people to the power of the mind.”
Hi Barafundle,
Well, I never cease to be surprised by what comes up on HP! Gosh, I've been told of umpteen other authors that Mary Baker Eddy is supposed to have got her ideas from, but this has been an interesting day of research for me! :p I've often seen on fundamentalist sites attacking Christian Science where they say it is from Hindu teachings and I've wondered where on earth they have got that idea from - now I know!
I must say, that from reading your past quotes (and links) from Yogananda, I’ve always felt absolutely sure that he was familiar with Christian Science, which wouldn’t surprise me, as I believe he lived in California during the latter part of his life? He uses such terms as the “Christ consciousness” which were found in many early Christian Science articles and I remember him talking about the “infinite ocean of Love” which Eddy used in a collection of writings from 1883-1896.
She also wrote (which I’m sure you will agree with too):
[COLOR="Blue"]
Material belief is slow to acknowledge what the spiritual fact implies. The truth is the centre of all religion. It commands sure entrance into the realm of Love. (Science and Health 20:25)
But as for Swami Yoganda’s belief that Mary Baker Eddy was a “student of the Hindu scriptures” – I’m afraid that’s not true. She grew up in a farming community in rural new England, was mainly home-schooled and the Bible was central to her life. She had a keen intellect and loved learning about philosophy, but interest in Eastern religions did not really take off widely until after the 1893 Chicago World Parliament of Religions (though the Transcendentalist Movement had embraced Vedic thought.)
The reason that quotes from the Bhagavad Gita appeared in early editions of Science and Health were all down to one James Henry Wiggin, an ex-Unitarian minister who Eddy employed as editorial assistant to correct her grammar and to help her present the meaning of Science and Health in a clearer way. He was recommended to her as being a man of the cultured class and he moved in what was known then as the Brahmin Boston circles. I’ll quote from Robert Peel, one of her biographers:
When the new edition – the sixteenth – finally came out in the spring of 1886, Wiggin’s influence was perceptible in more than the smoother flow of the sentences. He had persuaded Mrs Eddy to introduce each chapter with epigraphs not only from the Bible but also from the Bhagavad-Gita, Paradise Lost, Shakespeare, Longfellow, Mrs Gaskell, and such Boston worthies as William Ellery Channing, James Freeman Clarke, and Julia Ward Howe. Scattered through the text itself were tags of verse from minor nineteeth-century poets, giving it a “contemporary" flavor which would soon have dated the book if Mrs Eddy’s good judgment had not removed them from a later edition (1891) along with the epigraphs.
(She writes about her time with Wiggins in page 317/8 of Miscellany, including this statement, “In almost every case where Mr. Wiggin added words, I have erased them in my revisions..”)
But going back to Yoganda’s words:
Christian Science is a new presentation of truths the Hindus first preached long ago. By emphasizing the power of mind over body, and the dreamlike nature of this phenomenal world, Christian Science has awakened many matter-bound people to the power of the mind.”
He is talking of universal truths that undergird all religions. But, one thing Mrs Eddy was very clear about is that Christian Science is not pantheistic - we do not see God IN matter. All is spiritual and in Spirit. Also, it is not the "power of mind over the body" but the divine Mind (God) that heals. In the Preface of Science and Health she writes:
[COLOR="Blue"]Many imagine that the phenomena of physical healing in Christian Science present only a phase of the action of the human mind, which action in some unexplained way results in the cure of disease. On the contrary, Christian Science rationally explains that all other pathological methods are the fruits of human faith in matter,--faith in the workings, not of Spirit, but of the fleshly mind which must yield to Science.
The physical healing of Christian Science results now, as in Jesus' time, from the operation of divine Principle, before which sin and disease lose their reality in human consciousness and disappear as naturally and as necessarily as darkness gives place to light and sin to reformation. Now, as then, these mighty works are not supernatural, but supremely natural. They are the sign of Immanuel, or "God with us,"--a divine influence ever present in human consciousness and repeating itself, coming now as was promised aforetime,
To preach deliverance to the captives [of sense],
And recovering of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty them that are bruised.
Love and peace,
Judy
He is talking of universal truths that undergird all religions.
Whoever was responsible for quoting the Bhagavad Gita in 'Science and Health' I think Mary Baker Eddy would have got on very well with Yogananda. 🙂
[Yogananda] uses such terms as... the “infinite ocean of Love” which Eddy used in a collection of writings from 1883-1896.
I was wondering why this phrase seemed familiar, so I looked into it and found that in Ramanuja's (1017–1137) commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, God is described as "being an all pervading ocean of infinite mercy with unlimited compassion, unlimited love and unlimited magnanimity", so maybe she was familiar with it. Yogananda wrote a translation of it with a commentary, so would naturally have used a similar turn of phrase.
God is universal; confined to no spot, defined by no dogma
Anyway (just to keep on track), I wouldn't take the Bible literally. 🙂
Hi Judy
Thanks for the reply. I did look at the links that you posted with great interest. I noticed that Wikipedia had a more balanced arguement, taking different opinions into account, especially Flavius Josephus and whether his mentioning of Jesus was a forgery or not, which I have read about before. But the other links consider it a fact and don't mention how other historians have questioned its authenticity.
Bringing in Barafundle's interest in Jesus/Issa and India. There are apparently records of Jesus going back to India, surviving the crucifixion and living the rest of his life in Afganistan/Northern India. Well if that is that case, what about the resurrection?
But then if Jesus was a Yogi/Shaman type he could of course survived the cross by shutting down the body's autonomic systems, and being in a trance state the bleeding would be minimal (going into a trance state reduces peripheral circulation). And as stated in the Gospel of John, Jesus was given vinegar on a sponge while on the cross, couldn't this been a herbal sedative? There is even a theory that Jesus could of been substituted. And on top of this, if this has any authority, that in the Koran it questions the resurrection, and claims it was a myth.
We could go around and around in circles for years over this and 1000's of other issues.
What I trying to say is we can make anything out of anything if it serves the purpose of a personal agenda. Yes I happy to say that i can suffer from this as well!
Yes I have to admit I'm slightly biased against Christianity. Going to a primany school in the 70's and taught by "hang 'em high" Cornish Methodists, with their bitter and twisted bibical ways, and they were alcoholics. The headmaster for example drank himself into the grave. Now I look back and see how troubled their souls (mind) were, and do have some empathy. Adding to this a lifetime of Christians trying to convert me, on the streets, at my home, and at parties, with that arrogant smug attitude of are you with us or are you are with the devil, because otherwise you are going to be damned for eternity.
Sorry but I'm not buying into this mumbo jumbo. Deep within me is a sense that we can individually be connected to God/Goddess/Tao/Great Spirit/Christ Consciousness (whatever label we wish to choose and express), by being still and letting go. After many years of studying informally the esoteric, this is the conclusion I have made, to state again: being still and letting go. If any religion & spiritual path can help the seeker to do this all well and good. But we need to abandon the "vehicle" to move forward - a bit like the Christian mystics have done over the centuries but unfortunately getting into trouble with the Catholic church for it.
Best Wishes
RP
Whoever was responsible for quoting the Bhagavad Gita in 'Science and Health' I think Mary Baker Eddy would have got on very well with Yogananda. 🙂
I agree with you Barafundle! 😉 The quote from the BG that Yoganda included above would have fitted very well with her understanding of reality.
I was wondering why this phrase seemed familiar, so I looked into it and found that in Ramanuja's (1017–1137) commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, God is described as "being an all pervading ocean of infinite mercy with unlimited compassion, unlimited love and unlimited magnanimity", so maybe she was familiar with it. Yogananda wrote a translation of it with a commentary, so would naturally have used a similar turn of phrase.
That's beautiful! 🙂 I wonder if MBE ever read it, if not, just goes to prove that there is one Mind, one source of ideas!
Peace and love
Judy
That's beautiful! 🙂 I wonder if MBE ever read it, if not, just goes to prove that there is one Mind, one source of ideas!
A friend of mine was in India visiting a very greatly revered Indian saint a few years ago. He was very fortunate to get an audience with the saint, along with a group of devotees. The great holy man was answering all their questions, but when it came to my friend's question the saint said 'Not now'. My friend was stunned and went away extremely disappointed.
A little while later my friend was invited by a friend to visit a guru who was visiting his area. As soon as the guru saw my friend he pointed at him and said 'NOW I can answer your question'. My friend did get the answer he was looking for and he'd found his guru.
The great teachers who speak with real authority are divinely inspired and there's only one source for divine inspiration. 🙂
Great post Barafundle - thanks!
Hello again RP,
I think that if you actually looked at all the serious and academic research (not just relying on the Internet) into Bible scholarship, you would find that there is widespread agreement that Jesus appeared in Galilee as an apocalyptic prophet who proclaimed the coming of the Kingdom of God and gained a following during the course of his ministry. There are also many non-Christian sources talking about his crucifixion and also resurrection.
But what we need to remember (and what I was trying to get across to Ace 88) is that Jesus’ followers passed on what had happened through oral tradition. It was not written down for many years. The earliest surviving complete gospel is Mark, which is estimated to have been written about AD70 (40 odd years after Jesus’ time on earth) I don’t know about you, but I would have great difficulty remembering tiny details after all that time!
The earliest writings about Jesus were by Paul – his letters are accepted as being authentic. (I’ve been in Ananias’ house in Damascus where he went after his conversion and blinding, way below the modern level, but that doesn’t prove anything!) But what these writers were trying to get across was their insight and inspiration from Jesus’ life – history as we know it today was not the benchmark by which they wrote.
I have often had discussions on HP about Jesus and India and certainly think it is quite possible that during the “missing” years between when he was 12 and 30 that he could have traveled there. There is a legend that his uncle was Joseph of Arimathaea who was a trader. India and the Middle East are not that far away, to me it’s quite possible. There is also the legend that Jesus came to Britain with Joseph who had tin mines in Cornwall and also visited Glastonbury. Consider William Blake’s “Jerusalem”:
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountain green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
But as for Jesus going to India after the resurrection (and yes, I do believe in it, because in Christian Science history a few practitioners, including Mary Baker Eddy, have raised the dead) As I was saying, I have read quite a lot about this Jesus not dying and going to India theory and watched a few TV documentaries and it seems glaringly obvious to me that this was all a Muslim plot to discredit Christianity and Jesus’ unique status. I don’t buy it.
Those early Christians would not have been willing to face persecution, torture and death had not something absolutely remarkable happened. When men walked and talked with someone they had buried a few days earlier, they couldn’t keep that to themselves. When I think of the wording in one of those accounts, it rings so true: “And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" (Luke 24)
I’m going to post a few excerpts from the power there is behind the inspired words of the Bible in the next post, but meanwhile what I know, is that the truth behind the inspired words heals. It protects, it comforts, it guides, it redeems.
The Bible is a story of men’s search for God. Some of them found Truth – some didn’t. Some listened – some didn’t. But throughout the Bible runs a golden thread of the power of Spirit over matter. To me the fact that this is still being proved today proves that there are divine laws in the Bible which are practical, applicable and eternal.
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The literal rendering of the Scriptures makes them nothing valuable, but often is the foundation of unbelief and hopelessness. The metaphysical rendering is health and peace and hope for all. (Miscellany 169)
Peace and love
Judy
Barafundle,
Your post yesterday reminded me of an encounter someone I used to know had with a swami on a train journey. he told him of things that would happen and they did and it was really quite remarkable. I've phoned my friend who took Edward's funeral and she is having a look to see whether she can find her notes. Otherwise I'll share what we both can remember!
Love and peace,
Judy
Barafundle,
Your post yesterday reminded me of an encounter someone I used to know had with a swami on a train journey. he told him of things that would happen and they did and it was really quite remarkable. I've phoned my friend who took Edward's funeral and she is having a look to see whether she can find her notes. Otherwise I'll share what we both can remember!
Love and peace,
Judy
That sounds very interesting, Judy. I'd like to know more.
Your comment of the one Mind reminds me of a time when I was at a seminar in Switzerland with a very great yogi. He had given a very profound talk one morning and afterwards I spent much of the afternoon sitting by a river thinking about it and how it applied to my life.
I told nobody about what I'd been thinking and later in the day we were in the kitchen with the yogi preparing a meal. Suddenly he stopped what he was doing, he grabbed me, and with a big smile on his face he danced with me around the kitchen. Whilsts he did this he sang about all the very specific thoughts I'd had that afternoon down by the river! He was telling me that God knows it all. 🙂
What a lovely picture of you dancing around the kitchen with the Swami singing to you of God! :p
OK, as I promised yesterday, a few accounts of when people found help, protection, and healing through the truths behind the words in the Bible:
Me first! One day, while I was flying, I was alone in the back galley when I received a phone from the Cabin Service Director telling me to stow everything away as there was severe turbulence up ahead and that the Captain said all crew had to strap themselves in too.
I got everything secure, then grabbed my Bible as I sat down. I turned to the 91st Psalm, the Psalm of protection and became engrossed in praying with it. I felt such a sense of calm and peace and this was evidenced in the flight – not a ripple. After a while, the seat belt signs were turned off and we all went back to work.
Later on that evening, in the hotel in Milan, we met for a drink before going out to eat. The Captain kept saying "I can’t understand what happened during our flight" (how many times I’ve heard those words!) He explained that other aircraft, just minutes in front of us, in exactly the same airspace were experiencing such severe turbulence that the pilots were unable to read their instruments, yet it was like a mill-pond to us. Not even a ripple. We were near an enormous thunderstorm that the Captain said had the power of about 200 atomic bombs, and he just could not understand why we had not been touched. Where was that "power" when confronted by Truth (God)?
I’ll put the others into quotes to separate them:
In the March 31, 2003 issue of the Christian Science Sentinel there were three accounts of how people were healed or protected by a spiritual understanding of the 91st Psalm. One was written by the father of someone I know. He was in the military and that morning before he was to do a parachute jump, it came to him strongly to pray with the 91st Psalm. Sadly, it isn’t online any more, but I’d copied this part:
When two parachutes failed to open
"They shall bear thee up in their hands . . ."
By Nigel Hutchinson-BrooksAs I jumped, a gust of wind hit the aircraft, moved it through the air, and instead of being an aircraft's width from the guy on the other side of the plane, I was, in fact, about three or four feet from him, and just behind and above him.
This is all military jumping, so it's "static line"; there's no ripcord to pull. You just jump, and it all happens automatically. The parachute of the guy in front of me opened up, and I went feet-first straight between [his] rigging lines, and out the other side. My parachute never opened. It just bunched into a great glob of material, slid down the rigging lines to his shoulder, completely covered [his] head and shoulders and face, and collapsed his parachute.....
That’s when his earlier prayer proved helpful! The two men hit the ground at about 70 miles an hour and walked away, completely unhurt.
A friend of mine was having a very bad trip on LSD and was terrified. She picked up a Bible and a sentence from it stood out to her and she found herself completely calm – all the effects of the drug gone. Her whole life turned around after that.
A woman had suffered from a heart condition from birth and then injured her back which had made it all much worse. A friend suggested she try Christian Science and she’d been healed through the prayer of a practitioner in less than a week. However, later on, she was informed by a doctor that she had cancer and it was beyond help. In her own words:
“As I turned to God in prayer, I suddenly found myself thinking of Mary Baker Eddy’s experience – how she was instantaneously healed of severe injuries from an accident when she turned to her Bible for help. And so I immediately began a deep study of the Bible myself. The trouble had reached the stage where I could no longer take care of my home, so I had the whole day for study.
As I studied the Bible in connection with Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mrs Eddy, I found I was getting a clearer and clearer insight into the spiritual meaning of the Scriptures. I found new significance in the New Testament account of Jesus’ disciples. Not only the spiritual qualities of thought that each of the disciples represented, but the human failings each had to overcome.
For instance, Peter, who denied Jesus three times. And as I searched my own thoughts, I saw that I’d sometimes denied the Christ too. Saying I was sick was denying the Christ, Truth, which Jesus expressed in his healing work and which is always available.
And the two disciples who wanted to sit, one at the right hand and the other at the left hand of Jesus. They reminded me that I had thoughts of pride and vainglory to overcome.
But when it came to Judas, I said to myself, “Well, there’s one thing sure, I’ve never been like Judas.” But then I thought, “His problem was jealousy.” I bowed my head. I knew I’d been jealous at times. I’d long been jealous of a member of my family. Here was the root of the problem, and I saw that the solution lay in a better understanding of divine Love.
Then I thought of John, the beloved disciple. He expressed Love always, and Love can never be destroyed! And just as Jesus lovingly washed the feet of his disciples after the Passover supper, the understanding of the truth and love he taught could cleanse my thought of jealousy, doubt, pride, apathy – everything standing in the way of my healing.
And such was the case. It took a number of years, but these were fruitful years. There was a wonderful mental purging going on during that time, and it led to a complete healing. I was entirely healed and healthier and stronger than I’d ever been in my life. That was thirty years ago.
(A Century of Christian Science Healing p. 149)
A mother decribes how she was in the kitchen of their remote farmhouse when their two-and-a-half year old came running in, crying, saying he had drunk some juice that was burning his mouth. She went out and found an open bottle of fly control phosphate poison that her husband had been using.
She picked the child up and could smell the poison on his breath. She yelled to her husband in the barn but he didn’t hear her. She regained control of herself and reached out to God with all her heart in prayer. Looking at the bottle, it said that a physician should be called immediately. She writes:
"I immediately thought of God as our only physician. A familiar description of God, given by Mary Baker Eddy in Science and Health, then illuminated my consciousness like a light; it is found in the Glossary of the book: "GOD: The great I AM; the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-acting, all-wise, all-loving, and eternal; Principle; Mind; Soul; Spirit; Life; Truth; Love; all substance; intelligence." (p. 587)
"I became very still and conscious only of God’s allness and presence. I was then at peace and knew that all was well.
A Bible verse from Mark came to me – "and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not touch them:" (16:18) I realised no child of God had ever been touched by poison, nor had ever been separated from God’s perfection; our son remained as perfect as God had made him."
She felt freer and noticed that her son had stopped crying so she put him down and he began playing. This all took place within 10 minutes. Her husband arrived and felt the child should be taken to hospital where his stomach was pumped out. It took them two hours from when the poison was drunk to arriving at the hospital. Mrs Davis heard the doctor say that the poison takes less than an hour to have an effect and that the boy would soon go into convulsions and die. This didn’t happen.
A few days later, the boy’s father (who was not a Christian Scientist) said that he didn’t believe that the child could have swallowed the poison, so he returned to the hospital and asked if any poison had been found. He was told that poison had been found in the contents of his stomach and throughout his entire system.
Sept 5th 1995 Christian Science Sentinel
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Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them." (Daniel 3)With that in mind, let’s go to another wonderful proof of God’s power and presence. This took place during WWII.
The writer, Bud Trick, was a young sailor at the time. He accidentally grabbed a hot steam line with both hands, mistaking it for the ship’s rails. His shipmate standing next to him asked "Do you smell something burning, like leather?" He quickly took his hands off the pipe, saying "No" to his friend but made his way back to his bunk, hands tightly closed, in extreme pain. He did not look at his hands. (In Christian Science healing, we pray from the standpoint of absolute perfection – of being God’s reflection and expression, now and forever. We turn away from contemplating what the material senses are screaming at us, to what God is knowing and being.)
Up to then, whenever Bud had needed healing, he had an experienced Christian Science practitioner to pray for him, but this time he knew he was alone (alone with God that is!). He thought about the story of the three Hebrews and their deliverance from the furnace and he started asking himself
"If this Bible story is true, could it be true for me now; if the three men were protected like that, couldn’t I also be protected; if they came out of that furnace without the ‘smell of smoke" on them, couldn’t I be free from any effects of grabbing that pipe?"
A second thought also came to him – a statement from Science and Health: "Mind (God) is the source of all movement, and there is no inertia to retard or check its perpetual and harmonious action." p.283
About 15 or 20 minutes after he’d started praying in this manner, Bud was called for watch duty. These are his words:
"I can still remember opening my hands for the first time. I rubbed them together, and onto my white navy blanket fell all the black burned skin. I collected it up and threw it in the closest trash basket. There was no sign of a burn on either hand, and no scars. I was not disabled in any manner. I was immediately able to use my hands normally."
Charles "Bud" Trick: Christian Science Sentinel Feb. 4th 2002
From Mary Baker Eddy:
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The Bible is our sea-beaten rock. It guides the fishermen. It stands the storm. It engages the attention and enriches the being of all men. (Miscellany 295)
The Scriptures are very sacred. Our aim must be to have them understood spiritually, for only by this understanding can truth be gained. (Science and Health 547)
Love and peace,
Judy
What I did not expect was such hostility towards Christianity! Being brought up in the Christian tradition to me was not being brain washed, it was finding answers whenever I had a need, whether that need was physical, mental or emotional.
Hello Principled.
What answers does an infant need? All an infant requires is food, shelter and love. An attentive mother will in nearly all cases provide such attention. Now lets introduce religion shall we.
Religious people insist that within a few weeks/days of being born the child should be taken to see a special man, who wears special cloths, who lives in a special house, who will recite special words, who will then splash some special water on the child's head. Then suddenly: you're cured little one! No eternal agony for you. You've been baptised. You're saved. You're cured mate.
Btw, for descriptive purpose's the words “special” and “magic” are synonymous.
Of all the foul and ludicrous things emanating from the holy babble, the concept of original sin is without question the most disgusting.
The instant the child takes her first breath she is dirty, she is with sin and she needs cleansing with magic water by a magic man in order to save the immaterial part of her person. Say what now?!?!
I'm not buying it.
Never in my wildest hallucinations could I have ever fabricated such a story.
First and foremost I'm a sceptic I demand some evidence, not proof mind you! Just a little evidence, anything, anything at all! And to this day I have found no reason to accept any proclamations from any holy man. Any of them.
I was a sceptic from five years old, I'm not saying I was a particularly smart kid, it's just that some of the stuff I was commanded to accept as “Divine Truth” was total [insert ban-worthy cuss word]
The Hobbit is a lovely story, I enjoyed it immensely but it's not true. Beowulf is an absolutely incredible yarn but it's not true. Neither is the bible.
As for the enormous amount of evidence you allude to, and the archaeology links you posted, they all come to nought against these guys.
[url] http://www.antiquities.org.il/modules_eng.asp?Module_id=47 [/url]
Principled If anyone has an axe to grind it's these people. They have been digging for years and so far they have found: nothing!
Archaeologists have dig the place down to bedrock and they have found: nothing! Principled there is no credible archaeological evidence for any biblical events pertaining the divinity of a chap called jesus.
Now as for 'metaphorical interpretation'!
“Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!” psalms 137:9
What is that a metaphor, for?
Last and by all means least:
“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle”.
Yep that makes perfect sense.
It is of course from my favourite book in the bibble. The book of Revelation. To my reading of it the only “proof” in the bibble is that there was some seriously decent weed to be had in Palestine two thousand years ago. Or some shrooms of the most outstanding quality.
eta,
Enjoy
BH, I don't think you could have read my post above!! 😀
I totally agree with you about regarding innocent babies as "born in sin" and all that. I abhor those sort of doctrines, which, to my understanding have nothing at all to do with divine infinite Love. (I'm assuming that you do admit that at least Love and Life exist?):p
Jesus didn't come to bring a new religion, he came to teach people about a new way of thinking and living that would bring them freedom from all suffering and limitation. Unfortunately, his message was watered down, only his words were taken seriously, not his works and Christianity went from being a vital power of good to an institution governed by tradition, ritual and dogma. Heinous crimes were carried out in its name. But that had nothing to do with the pure essence of Christianity.
There are horrible writings in the Bible, horrible perceptions of God. I see these as human opinions and traditions.
Mary Baker Eddy observed that:
[COLOR="Blue"]Tyranny, intolerance, and bloodshed, wherever found, arise from the belief that the infinite is formed after the pattern of mortal personality, passion, and impulse. (Science and Health 94)
I take the INSPIRED word of the Bible and it's there in abundance! (You can get a tiny glimpse of that in my post above) What I'm saying is that the Bible is not inerrant, but to get blinded by what we inherently feel is wrong (or by the distorted conclusions that people have preached over the centuries) is to risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Revelation was written in code and requires deep study to understand it.
Oh, and when I spoke of when I was young, I'm talking about my whole childhood up to adulthood. I always felt safe and surrounded by divine Love and I always do, especially because of all the dozens of healings and examples of protection, supply and guidance I've had through prayer and spiritual understanding, which have continued.
Love and peace
Judy
Last and by all means least:
“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle”.
Yep that makes perfect sense.
If you're really interested Boson, the 'seven candlesticks' are the seven chakras that are called the 'seven lotuses' by yogis. Once again, meant to be interpreted metaphorically, not literally. 🙂
If you're really interested Boson, the 'seven candlesticks' are the seven chakras that are called the 'seven lotuses' by yogis. Once again, meant to be interpreted metaphorically, not literally. 🙂
I didn't know that, Barafundle. How fascinating. So the one in the centre
“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle”
(in the midst) could be the heart chakra? Although just from the description I would have said the Sahasrara chakra. But no need to get into detail.
Hi guys,
I totally agree that the Revelation of St John is a book that can be interpreted on many levels. When it was first given, it was a message to the 7 churches. But the number 7 in the Hebrew thought symbolised completeness, so it could also have been 7 aspects of the one divine idea of Church. There are many many symbolic interpretations of this important book - I found a Baha'i one just now which linked it all to astrology.
But let's put that passage about the candlesticks and the stars into context. This is where it appears in the Bible:
Revelation 1
1 This is the revelation that God gave to Jesus Christ. Jesus shows those who serve God what will happen soon. God made it known by sending his angel to his servant John. 2 John gives witness to everything he saw. The things he gives witness to are God's word and what Jesus Christ has said.3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy. Blessed are those who hear it and think everything it says is important. The time when these things will come true is near.
Greetings
4 I, John, am writing this letter.
I am sending it to the seven churches in Asia Minor......10 I was on the island of Patmos because I taught God's word and what Jesus said. 10 The Holy Spirit took complete control of me on the Lord's Day. I heard a loud voice behind me that sounded like a trumpet. 11 The voice said, "Write on a scroll what you see. Send it to the seven churches in Asia Minor. They are Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
12 I turned around to see who was speaking to me. When I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands. 13 In the middle of them was someone who looked "like a son of man."—(*Daniel 7:13 - see below)
He was dressed in a long robe with a gold strip of cloth around his chest.14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze metal glowing in a furnace. His voice sounded like rushing waters.
16 He held seven stars in his right hand. Out of his mouth came a sharp sword that had two edges. His face was like the sun shining in all of its brightness.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead.
Then he put his right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.18 I am the Living One. I was dead. But look! I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys to Death and Hell.
19 "So write down what you have seen. Write about what is happening now and what will happen later.
20 Here is what the mystery of the seven stars you saw in my right hand means. They are the angels of the seven churches. And the seven golden lampstands you saw stand for the seven churches.
*Daniel 7:13: "In my vision I saw One who looked like a son of man. He was coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Eternal God. He was led right up to him. 14 And he was given authority, glory and a kingdom. People from every nation and language worshiped him. His authority will last forever. It will not pass away. His kingdom will never be destroyed. (NIV Reader’s edition)
Love and peace,
Judy