Explaining the catastrophes in the world

Hi Claire

Difficult subject! But here's a contribution before I :hidesbehindsofa: :D.

In a book by the naturopath Peter D'Adamo he recounts a conversation as a teenager with a religious teacher. The religious teacher was asked why do bad things happen to good people. He replied that God so loved free choice, that He is willing to let events, both good and bad, unfold. When he asked the teacher how he could accept science and evolution, yet still believe in God, the teacher replied that there was nothing so small, or so elemental, that you cannot see the hand of God in it.

I tend to think of God not as a being, but All That Is, and All That Is to me cannot be defined. All That Is doesn't "need" anything, so doesn't need to interfere, whatever happens. Perhaps All That Is is experiencing everything through what unfolds, including the random and the tragic. All That Is experiencing everything that is? :confused:

Being part of both the incredible beauty and the sometimes incomprehensible harshness of the natural world, some things as humans we have no choice over, (such as earthquakes etc) but we can choose whether All That Is experiences love through us, or evil through us, or indifference. Whether we react to adversity with love, or anger. Peace maker or war monger. Is it that each individual human response matters, because apart from contributing towards collective human consciousness, it is also forming part of the experience of All That Is?

Organised religion often interprets the will of All That Is as if All That Is needs that to be done. We can choose to establish a relationship with All That Is via a range of organised religions, (whose rules we may or may not like) but I think its because we need or want to, not because All That Is needs it. I also believe we can make the connection ourselves if we want or need to.

All musings ..... 😀 But that's sort of how I manage to believe in God/All That Is despite everything that happens in the world.

Rustic 🙂

Hi Rustic! 🙂

Thanks a lot for your very interesting answer! I wish I had been "taught" about 'God' that way instead of this 'Being' who chooses to let some people suffer (sinners??).

About the religious teacher's answer: I agree with the idea of free will, but being in an earthquake doesn't have anything to do with free will!

I think you're defining the difference being spiritual and being religious. I have to say I always feel suspicious of organised religions. How can there be so many of them with so many different rules? And why do so many of them hate each other when, surely if there is a God or an All That Is, it's all the same for everyone! It makes me sad and angry that so many people still die every day because of organised religions!

I like to think that there is a universal energy around us. I'm sure my spirituality will evolve with time and with the various people I'm going to encounter! But I don't think I will ever feel the need to categorise myself into a specific religion...

Claire.

Good posts Claire and Rustic!

When, this is a topic that theologians and philosophers have grappled with for thousands of years. I don't think I can do justice to it, but would like to try!

However, though I have a lot I could say, it's almost midnight and I've just returned from a weekend away, so will simply suggest you have a look at the thread that was here and listen to the audio link, which was part of a talk just after the Indonesian hurricane.

Love and peace,

Judy

PS I've just found a file containing a letter where i poured out my frustrations after the Boxing Day tsunami and after hearing a discussion about "Where was God" on the Jeremy Vine show shortly afterwards. i know it's lazy to just re-post this and you probably didn't hear the discussion (or wouldn't remember it if you did) but I have made some points that apply to all disasters, so have decided to copy it here:

A heartfelt response I wrote after heaing the discussion about the tsunami on the Jeremy Vine show, Radio 2 on 5th Jan 2005, with a Christian, Hindu and Muslim representative and posted on an internet discussion forum.

Dear Father-Mother Love,

First of all, may I say how grateful I was not to have been sitting in the hot seat on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday!

We are all struggling with the enormity of this suffering, and many of the questions were aired yesterday. Archbishop Rowan Williams said people felt outraged and helpless and couldn’t understand how a loving God would allow suffering on such a scale.

I ask, "Does the sun permit darkness?" "Does the principle of mathematics permit mistakes?" Yes, it certainly SEEMS as if they do, but what is the truth here?

Jeremy Vine asked if God is all-powerful and all loving, what’s going on? I know Father that you are all-powerful; and Mother, that you are all-loving. Nothing that the material senses tell me will change that conviction, but I also understand how others do not feel like I do.

A lady rang in after the discussion and reminded us about Elijah and the earthquake (I Kings 19)
[COLOR="Purple"]
but the Lord was not in the wind:.....
but the Lord was not in the earthquake:...
but the Lord was not in the fire:

and after the fire a still small voice.

And Mary Baker Eddy writes, (in Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures):

[COLOR="Blue"]God is revealed only in that which reflects Life, Truth, Love,--yea, which manifests God's attributes and power, ..... (S&H p. 300)

In one sense God is identical with nature, but this nature is spiritual and is not expressed in matter. The lawgiver, whose lightning palsies or prostrates in death the child at prayer, is not the divine ideal of omnipresent Love. God is natural good, and is represented only by the idea of goodness; while evil should be regarded as unnatural, because it is opposed to the nature of Spirit, God. (S&H p. 119)

God, divine good, does not kill a man in order to give him eternal Life, for God alone is man's life. God is at once the centre and circumference of being. (S&H p. 203)

Everyone on the discussion agreed that suffering is a subject that all religions struggle with. Nicky Gumbel reminded us that the Bible has a lot to say about suffering and that Christians believe the key is in Jesus. Jesus showed through his resurrection that suffering is not the last word and that gives us hope.

Nicky Gumbel also said that Jesus didn’t come to answer some philosophical problems – he came to DO something about suffering! YES! Jesus went through what he did to prove to us that Love CAN overcome hate; that Truth CAN overcome sin and evil; that Life CAN overcome death. He was the Way-shower. He came to offer us a lot more than hope - he came to show us how to overcome suffering. His was not some abstract philosophy dealing with the afterlife – he was immensely practical and scientific. When people were hungry, he fed them, when people were ill or disabled, he healed them. When he needed to get somewhere, he was there immediately. He stilled the storm; he walked over the waves. He demonstrated spiritual authority and dominion over all material conditions.

As Mary Baker Eddy explained:

[COLOR="Blue"]Jesus taught us to walk over, not into or with, the currents of matter, or mortal mind. His teachings beard the lions in their dens. He turned the water into wine, he commanded the winds, he healed the sick,--all in direct opposition to human philosophy and so-called natural science. He annulled the laws of matter, showing them to be laws of mortal mind, not of God. He showed the need of changing this mind and its abortive laws. He demanded a change of consciousness and evidence, and effected this change through the higher laws of God……….

Jesus required neither cycles of time nor thought in order to mature fitness for perfection and its possibilities. He said that the kingdom of heaven is here, and is included in Mind;…." (Unity of Good p. 11)

Isn’t this the answer? "Jesus taught us to walk over, not into or with, the currents of matter, or mortal mind….." "He demanded a change of consciousness and evidence…" Isn’t that the need of this age too? Don’t we all need to learn HOW to follow his example in all his ways?

And no, I don’t agree that human beings are "insignificant insects" either. I believe that man is Your highest creation – Your highest idea of perfection. Perfect Principle and idea.

The Hindu gentleman (sorry, didn’t get his name) asked, "Is God flawed or is our concept of God flawed?" He said we have made God man-like by the anthropomorphism of God I agree with him. Man has given God, infinite Truth, Life and Love, human emotions, like wrath and judgementalism. However, before You point out that I'm addressing You in an anthropomorphic way, as Father-Mother - well, I have to, because that’s the only way I can comprehend Your infinite divine Principle, Love. I feel Your nearness and tenderness - I have to relate to what I can comprehend. Jesus called you "Abba" – Daddy; and that’s good enough for me!

The same gentleman said that God was shining and living in the eyes of every living thing, becoming most transparent in the eyes of man. He was not somewhere out there, dishing out punishment. What we see as living things is actually the reflection of ultimate reality. We are not essentially here, we are one with God.

I too believe that we are reflection, that we are one with You, though the material senses would have us believe that this is not so. This forms the basis of all my prayer. However, words are empty unless we can demonstrate these universal truths, even in a small way. Jesus didn’t ignore the human condition with words of abstract theory – he was immensely practical. He didn’t say "It’s OK – this is all an illusion, ignore it – it’ll all get better in the next life." No, he showed us that the Kingdom of Heaven is within, that we can become conscious of it HERE and NOW. He met people's thought where it was, he met their human needs and transformed their lives through his sublime spiritual understanding.

Jeremy Vine pointed out that God did not save individuals because of their faith. He said that faith would not help us because it didn’t work on Boxing Day. He also said that prayer didn’t work for those people who died. (Mind you, how does he know they were praying?) Does this not give us all something to pray for understanding about? This is back to Superman in the sky doling out judgement and favours. But the laws of mathematics work equally for Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, atheists and all. I know that You love all Your creation equally and unconditionally – I just know it.

Why is it that sometimes prayer doesn’t work? Could it be that perhaps prayer becomes just words, or because fear or cynicism gets in the way? I’m thinking of Jesus again here. The Bible tells us that he wasn’t able to do much healing in his hometown. At the Pool of Bethesda, there were many invalids hoping for healing, but he must have perceived that only one of them was receptive. Again, he only healed those who came to him, not those who stayed at home. What does all this tell us Father-Mother? Will it help us to understand the incomprehensible? It all seems so unfair, so random, but again, I know that Your goodness is not random – I have had so much proof of that in my own life and seen it in the lives of others.

Father-Mother Mind, please give me the understanding that I need to rise above this human wrestling, help me to learn more about Your ever-present goodness and protection. Being dragged down by the physical picture does not help anyone, neither the victims nor me. In fact, we become part of the problem when we identify with it. But lifting our thought above the darkness into the light of the presence of the might and perfection of Spirit helps us to pray more effectively and to become part of the solution. Please give me more understanding and inspiration in order to help others with my prayer.

This dreadful trial so many are going through, will bring blessings – good will come out of this, change will come out of this – I’m sure of that. We are already seeing Your Love in action with the global outpouring of love, compassion and generosity. Former enemies are helping each other. Will this change the whole direction of politics, morality and business ethics? I hope

Hello Claire,

I recently read The Shack by William P Young, the book deals with the issue of why bad things happen, with people it explains that it's because we have chosen independence over relationship with the devine, while people are not getting their needs met and are ignoring the spiritual people will do bad things, with the earth it explains that things like earthquakes etc is Mother Earth showing her anger for the way we treat her, it resonated very loudly with me.

Love

Rebecca xx

The disasters of the world are very simply explained if we understand what the world represent in a mortal sense. Jesus states " I and my Father are one" This means that the spiritual man and God are one, and as God is Mind it follows that the Mind of spiritual man is God. But as mortal man is a negation or a counterfeith of the real, this mortal man's mind is
as Jesus said, [speaking of the belief in a material man] Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father [mortal mind] you will do.He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there was no truth in him, When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of lies. This mind is suppositonally parading as the mind of man, and is on the road of self-destruct. Our only hope to lessen those latter days of destruction and much woe, is the know the Science of being as instructed by the Bible and explained by the Science of Being. [Christian Science] Mind you, this is my conviction and do not intend to preach.
Regards Meta

Hi Claire 🙂

Some more musing .... :hidesbehindsofa:

I think that although there can be free will, that doesn’t mean that we can control everything. We can’t always control what others do, or natural phenomena such as earthquakes.

How long we survive depends not only on the choices we make, but a certain amount of luck in avoiding the random and the tragic. Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. (The sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous is the quote that springs to mind).

I think religions worship an interpretation of God, and defend their (group) interpretation which can lead to conflict. The effect seems to be that in the eyes of man there is more than one God. Whatever the disagreements between them, the Universe just carries on unfolding.

Different translations of original scriptures adds to the confusion. I read a translation from the Aramaic of some examples of standard Christian text (a fairly short work, but it gave me an insight). Years ago I did a workshop with the author of the work during my subtle energy training, and it was an amazing day. Words have a vibration, and a change in the translation made a difference in my understanding. We were repeating the words in Aramaic, as body prayer, learning about the Aramaic to English translation, compared to the King James version (translated from Greek/Hebrew?) I would find it very hard to explain how deeply it resonated with me. My whole theoretical philosopy swept away in the resonance of experience in one short day.

Places of worship have a vibration also. Think of sacred geometry, acoustics, stain glass windows etc. Then the vibration of the group experience. The vibration of words and music. My personal feeling is that places of worship are where we can more easily raise our own vibration to commune with All That Is and that it is a role of organised religion to help us do that. The group energy of a service is what suits many people, or the discipline of making sure that at regular intervals they connect with All That Is.

If I look at religion as serving the purpose of being a "spiritual connection facilitator", 🙂 then if I wanted to it would still be possible for me to belong to a religion, and attend services. I can also honour the religious upbringing given to me by my parents, and it can bring me closer to them. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, there are still huge riches, as well as any philosophical and historical shortcomings. I don’t have to reject everything. God doesn’t need me to agree with everything, because God doesn’t need anything.

I love places of worship generally – but for personal connection I go when there isn’t a service on, usually when I'm on holiday. Its part of recharging my batteries. 😀 Services don’t suit my way of communing with All That Is. The words don’t resonate with me as body prayer. They are just words whose resonance has got lost in translation.

Rustic 🙂

Thanks, Rustic. Your posts are resonating with my own belief systems. Do I detect whispers from Conversations with God in there? I so agree that it doesn't have to be 'all or nothing'. I too love places of worship and pick up on the aggregation of centuries of prayer that have been offered up in them. But I struggle with a Christian prayer service as it feels so very unspontaneous, compared say to the colour and noise and anarchy in a Hindu temple. To get back on topic, I would say that my own personal journey has led me to the belief that everything happens perfectly. To paraphrase a dreadful song, 'even the bad things are good', but it takes an intrinsic belief in the continuum of being (ie that there is no such thing as death) to permit one to get one's head around that concept. Everything happens for a reason, but we, as yet, may not be able to fathom that reason. A catastrophe may turn out to be a catalyst which propels someone several rungs up the ladder of consciousness or understanding. It may end a life that was due to begin again anyway. It may unleash someone's compassion and willingness to help others first. And, in the final analysis, all shall be well....

xxx

Rustic, thanks again for another great post. What you say also resonates with me, even if I'm still somehow recalcitrant (after being fed christianism my whole life)! I do love the atmosphere of places of worship (churches, temples, mosques), even though I don't like going to the mass!

Sunanda, I agree that the idea of reincarnation gives catastrophes a very very different meaning. I do wish I believed in that, but I'm really not sure... But, I'm only at the begining of my spiritual journey, so who knows where I will end! 🙂

Thanks everyone for taking the time to answer, it is most interesting to hear from so many different backgrounds!!
xx

Why does there have to be an all singing all dancing GOD, like some kindly father looking after his extended family. This is to me a primative and childish way of thinking. Catastrophes happen because they do. It's just the natural normal flux of the universe. What's more important is how we respond to catastrophe. Do we run around like headless chickens or get on with the job of living and caring. The only constant in the universe is change (and taxation, lol). Natures way can be both beautiful and dangerous, orderly and chaotic. If this wasn't the case, nature would stagnate.

This doesn't mean that I'm irreligious. Personally I think we are subtle beings having an earthly experience, but blaming GOD for our problems, especially when we are taught at a young age that HE is there to protect us, is just an error of thought. It makes no-sense. The problem is that we psychologically attach ourselves to things, our bodies, people, looks, labels, ideas, deities, gadgets without realising that it is all impermanant. And when catastrophes happen it rocks our world - our fragile conceptions and attachments.

RP

Hi Sunanda

Conversations with God is a book I like for its simplicity, so probably a whisper or two :D...It’s one of those books where I wondered when I read it what it would read like if it was translated into Hebrew, then Greek and then back to English... And what it would read like in 2000 years ...

I suppose for some the unspontaneity of a Christian prayer service can lull the logical brain into letting the intuitive brain make the spiritual connection.... but I’m just thinking I wish they would get on with it .... perhaps because the words don’t resonate in the translation being used.

Hi Claire

You mentioning Mass, reminds me of when I was a child, when myself and a friend were allowed to go to a church service (C of E) on our own, as it was only a couple of streets away. We got lost and finished up in a Catholic church and took part in the service. Anyway afterwards when we realised what we had done, we managed to convince ourselves that when we died we would go straight to hell ..... I didn’t tell my parents but as a child never went into a church on my own again. But it is probably one of the catalysts to my own spiritual search.

As an adult I had a dream that I was dead and that there was nothing on the other side. My consciousness was floating around in a sea of darkness, alone, I thought for eternity at the time. I woke up in a sweat and completely terrified.

After reading from various traditions about what happens after death, I decided the place I was in was simply a void I was passing through. The decision it was for eternity was an assumption I made. What I also missed for a while was the significance that in the dream my awareness survived death. Then it led me into thinking of reincarnation, and for a long time I decided that I didn’t want to reincarnate, and that if we had free will I wouldn’t have to. But although I don’t believe All That Is would make me, what if it’s inevitable as part of the Universe unfolding, just as I believe catastrophes are?

I don’t think it matters that I’m not sure. I don’t have to make a decision either way. If reincarnation is inevitable, it will happen whether I believe it or not, or want it or not, presumably using the vibration at the time of reincarnation (karma?) Cause (death) effect (reincarnation, working with the vibration available, translated as my karma) I’m OK with. If matter gets recycled, why not my consciousness? I’m not convinced I will reincarnate as the same drop of consciousness though IYKWIM, although possibly some might reincarnate more or less intact. Mathematically possible .... ? And who is to say reincarnation will only be on earth? Or even in this universe? The concept of one universe limits All That Is ...

Now I’m definitely :hidesbehindsofa: 😀

Rustic 🙂

Why do catastrophies happen?

Since the earth was formed a few billion years ago it has been very unstasble, bombarded by objects flying around the solar system, plate tectonic movements causing lots of earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions etc...

All this stuff has been happening a very long time... Humans have inhabited the earth for a very little time of relative stability - but there is still potential for catastrophe everywhere...

Perhaps, instead of being surprised when natural disasters happen, we could be in awe of the unlikely stability we have that has actually allowed life to thrive in the way it has...

Why do catastrophies happen?

Since the earth was formed a few billion years ago it has been very unstasble, bombarded by objects flying around the solar system, plate tectonic movements causing lots of earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions etc...

All this stuff has been happening a very long time... Humans have inhabited the earth for a very little time of relative stability - but there is still potential for catastrophe everywhere...

Perhaps, instead of being surprised when natural disasters happen, we could be in awe of the unlikely stability we have that has actually allowed life to thrive in the way it has...

Of course I agree with that! My question was more about how people can believe in a loving powerful god despite the catastrophes...

Of course I agree with that! My question was more about how people can believe in a loving powerful god despite the catastrophes...

I certainly don't believe in a loving, powerful, God - but I can't prove his non-existence either so prefer to take an atheistic agnostic view.

I'm not sure where the idea of a loving God came from, in the bible God is often a total git...

I certainly don't believe in a loving, powerful, God - but I can't prove his non-existence either so prefer to take an atheistic agnostic view.

I'm not sure where the idea of a loving God came from, in the bible God is often a total git...

I have wondered about that too, because in the old testament, God is reaaally harsh!! It's only in the new testament that he's all loving and forgiving.

Hi All

Thoughts about Catastrophes of the world is always a question that brings many theories, yet the searching for understanding continues on no matter how many answers come our way, until an answer resonates within.
As long as we are attached to the body and its limitations, the ultimate answer may never be found.

We may often ask ourselves how catastrophes of the world can be meaningful in any way ?. Clearly they raise questions within us for they seem to block the light of truth we seek.
It has been said that the quiet mind leads to gods light, therefore if there are war’s, catastrophes, conflict etc, how can the pre occupied mind reach gods guiding light?.

How then can we look beyond the questioning about the worlds “Bad stuff?”.

Well first of all is to try to have some understanding of their meaning, Are catastrophes in some way keeping everyone from seeking truth ?.

If the world keeps everyone occupied with catastrophes, suffering and pain, by our immediate responsive action to the catastrophes, are we then kept from our journey home?.
The journey home is believed and travelled in many different ways and beliefs by each person on this earth, this is just one way!....

Catastrophes certainly create an emotional response in some way, so strong that we in the world respond to them in a mass gathering.
No one questions this, and why?, for our compassion and love becomes so strong that it seems to be an instant born reaction.
But is our ability to look into why these things happen,…. limited?, of course! That why we of the world keep asking , …..why?.

Did God create the catastrophes, or did we though our creating and thoughts? . Did god not give us the gift to create?, therefore is God softly trying to awaken us from our mis-creations?, and from our seeming beliefs in the catastrophes that we are not aware that we created?.

As many people may know it can be all too easy to blame someone else for a mistake that we desire not to take responsibility for!, Yet even more difficult if we are not aware that we created in the first place!, “God is to blame!, who else can there be who creates such a major disaster?”, we say!.
We are creators are we not?, maybe we look to where the answer is not?

As long as we walk trembling in a world of fear, wars and catastrophe, can we realize Gods light upon us?. It could take many years to realize this or just one instant, the time is takes depends on the choices we make and the beliefs we have, for creation is our will is it not?.

Could it be that one day we may remember that we cannot be hurt in anyway, when we have learned that we cannot be attacked as we belief!, Will then the knowledge of catastrophe be brought to truth!.

Can we find the answer as we connect with a life of a body? Possibly not!, but life has a way of teaching that no matter what the catastrophe, learning to see it for what it is, Is all part of the experience of our path, eventually through realization does the mind then free.

I have spoken of illusions before; I believe that one illusion about yourself can battle with another illusion.
When you have two illusions there becomes a state where nothing happens!! , hence the continuation of catastrophes.
Can there be any end to catastrophes as we currently see them? As truth and peace stands ready in light, in the inner quietness of God.

What happens when catastrophes happen, people come together as one to support, love and grieve together.
Without catastrophes what else could bring such a mass together with one goal?

There is no order of difficulties, from a major earthquake to a headache; it is our own perception that puts difficulties in order from our fear and ability to cope with each one. They are seen as all the same if we believe we apart from the body, are they not?.

I wonder, Is it that our world and catastrophes are used to help us break out of our seeming belief in suffering?. Yet through our perception about catastrophes,
True seeing withdraws our belief in what they truly are.

Until the time comes where we as one believe and see as one, Truth will stand near us, in peace, awaiting our call !.
The world will continue to conflict with all creative thoughts, perceiving catastrophes as a way of life.
To step back, To try to understand and become the observer as we gather as one to help ease suffering is the only way we know and a way of giving love, until truth is brought to our awareness.
Yet giving love and support like this is not in a way we would choose.

Open your heart and mind, at this time we understand the seeming belief that as we have the limited body, If we believe we cannot change when and how catastrophes comes upon us, but know that we still have the gift of choices, Can we then decide how we respond to them….always with love as one.

Just one of many possible answers….yet do we continue to seek!.

Blessings

Sacrel

Is it not possible that catastrophic events are just natural occurrences. The Sun heats up the planet and depending on the natural state of the planet it can cool as it revolves away from the Sun....If too much heat is absorbed and not able to escape the Earth "expands", plates move and earthquakes happen. Volcanoes are natural vents to assists heat dissipation..........

I can't see how we are influencing these events., apart from possible green house contributions......There are however records of catastrophic events occurring well before man trod the Earth.

Another thing that's always bothered me is a certain lack of logic, which was the theme of that article. There are three pre-given concepts about God in modern Christianity: God is good/pure love, God is omniscient, and God is omnipotent.
If that is true, why does God let such things as the Haiti earthquake happen? Or the holocaust?

IMHO, well, a strong opinion, all human beings are given free will to do right or wrong. When entire nations, or the world, misuses free free will, that's national or global karma. It can literally cause earthquakes. It's out there as an energy which rebounds.

None of these things would happen if we never did wrong in the misuse of free will. Read up on karma?

Free will is God's greatest gift to us: if we didn't have it, we'd be robots and not even conscious to able to discuss these things. The right use of free will is how we grow, which is the very purpose of life: having free will and using it rightly.

So God isn't responsible for any of these things - we are.

V

When entire nations, or the world, misuses free free will, that's national or global karma. It can literally cause earthquakes. It's out there as an energy which rebounds.

None of these things would happen if we never did wrong in the misuse of free will. Read up on karma?

So God isn't responsible for any of these things - we are.

V

So how about huge naturals disasters that happened before mankind? And do you really think that every country that suffered from a huge catastrophe like Haiti or Sri Lanka is "guilty" of something? I mean, in that case, I'd understand why the whole of Europe and of the USA was destroyed by a tornado or an earth quake! And how about individual karma? Are you saying that no matter your own karma, if your nation's karma is bad, then bad things can happen to you (you just happen to be there)? Surely, not ALL the people who died in Haiti had bad karma! There were little babies!

Good questions and penetrating!

Unlike God I'm not omniscient so this is just my stab at that.

Natural disasters before humanity? That's the hardest one to answer, yes. Perhaps such events were often more creative in turns of how the world as a whole was intended to turn out? I'm glad there are only remnants of the dinosoars left, for example? Just a stab at an answer, that one...

Yep, it's a tough one about individual vs. mass karma. Others will disagree which is fine. I do believe in group karma: hence it's going to be very difficult to "separate" those totally innocent from a returning mass karma.

Or sometimes by ingenuity they can separate themselves? For example, the credit crunch might be viewed as the mass karma of the world (not just bankers and dishonest chancellors whom we allowed to lead us), yet some come out on top in the present situation anyway.

I don't pretend it's got easy answers, but I do believe in mass karma such as national karma, yes. (But no, I don't want the Glenn Hoddle treatment thanks! "You are saying they are all to blame!?" :confused: )

More important to me by far is the concept that "God" isn't to blame, right?

V

I've been watching that science programme Wonders of the solar system. This week’s was interesting because part of it was about volcanic eruptions on a moon that theoretically shouldn’t have had volcanic activity. But it was shown that it was the way the moon, Io, orbited the planet Jupiter, and the relationship between that and the other two moons that caused the volcanic action. Volcanic action was predicted by some scientists based on the existing laws of physics before the space explorer got there i.e. what is going on is nothing to do with karma, or free will. Extreme weather, earthquakes and volcanoes etc happen on worlds where no life is known to exist.

I don’t think in the universal scheme of things that humans are so important. As a species, humanity influences what happens on earth, and can cause natural disasters, but I don’t think karma and free will can override the laws of physics to the extent that we could ever completely stop earthquakes happening, or volcanoes erupting etc etc. Humanity might be to blame for a lot of things, but we don’t take responsibility for every natural disaster that happens, and neither does God. I think sometimes it just is, as a natural part of the laws of physics operating in the universe. It happens on planets and moons with no known life, and as we are operating under the same laws of physics, I think it is bound to happen here.

Rustic 🙂

wow some amazing posts here. thanks Sunanda and Rustic whose posts in particular I enjoyed a lot. I liked Sunanda's: "it may end a life that was due to begin anyway".
I had to read it 5 time, each time the power of the words getting bigger.

yes it is a riddle as to why innocents die tragically so young etc...maybe there is some mroal as in the idea of Karma (I dare say "moral" because to me it sounds like there s a judgement of our actions and a punishment, or a consequence), and I am totally open to this idea, but at the moment I am more inclined to believe/feel that we are simply passing subtle beings, in a temporary existence, who go onto another dimension somewhere, maybe to an infinite number of energy transformations or births...

Near death experiences, telepathy, unexpected healing, etc all converge to point to some after-life, at least another huge world out there.

I am reading "The Field" by Lynn McTaggar and it is amazing. Claire you would enjoy it, it is dense scientific exploration of what matter and the universe is (from subatoms, to human bodies to cosmic energies).

Hi Fadette
My personal belief system is a mishmash of different sources: I just soak up stuff like a sponge. Somewhere along the line I read the (I think Buddhist) saying that if we really knew what was going on, we would weep at a birth and laugh at a funeral. In other words, the 'punishment' is not death but rebirth. I have come to believe that our 'life' between incarnations is probably pretty wonderful - but we keep on coming back so we can 'progress' and become the perfect beings that we really are. Somewhere in one of the Conversations with God books, 'God' says that this planet and our incarnations thereon, are like doing hard penal servitude. There's always suffering involved! But as we 'progress' so we can recognise that this suffering is not what it seems. One day we will see, at present we can only look 'through a glass, darkly'. I don't think God is to 'blame' for catastrophes; equally I don't think that our collective karmas are to 'blame'. Things happen and we deal with them....one way or another.
xxx

Some guy has a different opinion on Haiti...

😮

Sunanda, what you re saying is interesting but again, the buddhist "penchant" reading of earthly life as penal servitude involving suffering is...I dont know....exatcly what bothered me while reading about Boudhsim. The idea, again, like in the Bible, that we are here only to suffer and that all things earthly are illusions if not temptations therefore worthy of despise is alien to me. and here we go with the christian (and probably muslim for most religions were "written" round the same time: 2500-2000 years ago) Bible misoginy and irrespect for nature.
Where there is a body there is sin. or suffering (buddhsim). as women are seen as closer to the Earth and Nature, women are more heavily locked inside matter, in some unspiritual dimension.

Am probably going too far, at least off topic, but it is that deep pessimism, that always seeks to seperate body/Nature and soul/mind that I dont buy. In christianism, if you follow the rules you will access heaven and god after you die and that will be it, no more worry. In Buddhism, you need to work hard through many incarnations to spiritualize yourself and detach yourself from all things earthly. not to mention that this process implies (my interpretation from my reading of the subject) distancing yourself from personal love, ie friends and lovers/spouses, and also animals. I find it either offers en extremely selfish set of guidelines of how to live your life, or at least in the West, it tends to attract people who are seeking this detachment because it suits them.

not sure what I want to believe...I do however feel it to be true that we should probably weep at births and laugh at funerals. Carl Jung had said something like that, that the real life happens before we re born/after we die.

Am probably going too far, at least off topic, but it is that deep pessimism, that always seeks to seperate body/Nature and soul/mind that I dont buy.

Hi Fadette

If you are reading The Field, you might be interested in this picture. (I love Alex Grey's work :)).

Rustic 🙂

Hi Fadette

If you are reading The Field, you might be interested in this picture. (I love Alex Grey's work :)).

Rustic 🙂

Ohhh I have seen his work before! Fascinating! NOW I want to read The Field! 🙂

of course you have to read the Field! did you think it was a romance book I was talking about? 😀

Thank you Rustic, I didnt know his work. I was very interested in some of the performances, such as the Goddess. I did not understand The Cross...
The paintings are amazing, such details, this man must have such a vivid imagination and intuition.

Hi all,
great discussion!
I agree with the free will vs intervention bit a lot.
There is another aspect as well however that many people miss and that is the time span over which things happen and then bear fruit.
When someone dies we often ask (bemoan) why God let this happen - we see only the immediate hurt and harm, we feel only the local sorrow. We accept that we cannot understand the workings of God but expect an answer that we can understand. Instead think bigger and longer (and more Godlike).
When someone dies they leave behind a legacy of their life, their interactions with others, their place in the world and the effect that thier death and life had/has on everything.
We fail to see that this may have been the right thing for them - perhaps this was a vital part of their journey.
We fail to see the changes wrought over time, how (for instance) someone's death can wake someone up from the sleep of non-involvement and apathy to the postion where they begin to help others, to feel what they feel and see how they see.
We do not understand how the sorrow and loss can make some of us better, forcing us to learn to express ourselves as individuals as part of our journey.
We fail to see how our heart (though breaking) is alive and feeling in a manner it seldom does/would otherwise. The love and compassion, these are what drive sorrow - how else can these be woken and allow us to express them adequately.
This all is part of God's love for the human race, it alows us as a race the chance (through free will) to take a small step forwards in our journey, and when enough of us do the entire race takes a small step.
We fail to see that being comfortable, safe and unthreatened and then ascribing blame to God when we are not cocooned against these problems does nothing for us, it leaves us in limbo, living a life of no progress on our journey, merely existing.

All of this information is available - just ask God and he will try to explain - but in truth your heart already knows all this.

love
chris

The discussion is heading the right way. The Absolute is not cognizant of consciouness which is transient, everchanging and playful. The common idea of God is just that- an idea. Infact there is only Absolute-Utterly indivisible. Yet assuming the appearance of many- infact infinite appearances. In this appearance change is ever taking place. Whatever happens here happens. No more to it. We do have a problem with no entity doing it. Because our understanding of the world is very causal. There has to be an action and reaction. So all sorts of theories(karma etc) are spun to fit the bill. It is just happening is too simplistic answer for our liking.

It is in perceived separation of duality good-bad, holy-lowly, right-wrong and all polarities take birth. The duality cannot grasp the Absolute or how it functions( or does not function at all!) Our idea of a God is of a persona of some sort. From that emanates the desire to expalin, justify and find reasons for seemingly unreasonable things. That is when the trouble starts no matter how cleverly we try to do it the Absolute and the leela(play of consciousness) cannot fit into our understanding. Because Absolute is beyond reason, mind and understanding.
So we try to understand with all our knowledge, understanding, reason, science yet the answer eludes us. Slippery as hell! Got to appreciate the sense of humour!
Mystery of mysteries!!