Dog eat dog

I can't give you a christian perspective on this, as I'm not one.

However, the title of your thread caught my eye and I felt your question lacks balance somewhat.

Without human intervention (such as hunting and our impact on the environment etc), animal populations would be kept reasonably balanced by the natural course of the food chain. Many animals need meat in their diet but don't need fruit and vegetables as they naturally make vitamin c in their stomach. Some research says that we once did too but this stopped as fruit and vegetables are our original diet before we learnt to hunt and found fire to cook meat (our teeth and digestive systems aren't designed to eat raw meat which is why we have to cook it).

I mentioned balance.......... why do humans kill for food? We don't need to. In fact, farming for meat and dairy also upsets nature's balance. The methane given off by cow dung is as much a strain on the environment than the emissions from cars! There wouldn't be anywhere near as many cattle on the planet if it wasn't for human intervention.

I'm just making a point btw, I'm not one of those holier than thou vegetarians, in fact my wife eats meat and I do most of the cooking!

Edit: Also, if every creature on the planet was vegetarian, would the planet be able to sustain it's population?

Yeah sorry i know my question probably doesn't make much sense although it did in my mind before i had to try and spit it out lol.

See, I am a meat-eater and have to admit that I really enjoy it, i'm not really sure how to get my point across. My views on death,dying and killing is not so good, especially in the animal kingdom that life in any shape or form has to die for someone else's life to continue and like you said i know some animals/humans live off of fruit and veg but its just something i need to get my head around before I can understand God a bit more.

Hope I made a bit more sense this time. If not then maybe they'll get better as I think more about it.

Alex
From God perspective there is only perfection. As you get closer to him the queries of mind drop.
What do you think when you smoke grass that you felt closer to God? It happens to many a people. The mind takes the back seat. God is not some place out there and you walk/journey towards Him. It is the absence of mind, (which is not necessarily absence of thoughts as common belief).
Mind is that sense that perceives/knows itself to be a separation from the Whole(God) or Absolute. In a state of intoxication that separation is hushed a bit, hence the relief. It numbs the mind. It is of course not going to be an answer to your longing to feel connected within. That can only happen as a conscious process, not when you are out of your mind, under magic mushrooms or grass.

Having said that it is good because it has given you a taste of the realm of the divine. Infact it is ALL a realm of the divine and nothing else. But the sense of separation reigns supreme, which brings misery. "I am sad and horrified" true but you got the reason wrong it is not 'dog eat dog' that is troubling you. It is the need to find your true essence that is the cause of your grief and confusion.

In my experience that is a terrific sign spiritually. All spiritual quest begins at disillusionment. Otherwise why would you bother? It is all hunky dory, where is the push? Divine is reaching out to you. You are being pulled back in. If you like to connect by PM, there is help available

Beautiful post jnani – totally resonates with me!

I have always been close to believing in God but one thing I find it hard to get my head around is why do animals kill each other for food, I mean I know they do it because they don't have any other means or know how but its something that makes me sad and horrified to think about.

It would be nice to get your perspective on it from a Christian point of view.

Hello Alex,

I haven’t “met” you before. I love your User name – just stick to that when you feel down, because you are unique and you are a beloved and perfect son of God.

I will give you my perspective as a student of Christian Science. So, let’s go to the very beginning of the Bible and look at a little overlooked chapter (the first one) Most Christians either overlook it and focus on its counterfeit – the Adam and Eve allegory, or, worse still fight with everyone insisting they have to take the 6 days of creation literally, but we won’t get bogged down there!

I see Genesis 1 as the unfolding of spiritual ideas, which are the solid reality of who we really are. For instance, if you destroyed every chair on earth, you would still be able to make another – why? Because the IDEA of a chair is eternal and can’t be destroyed.

For instance, from Genesis 1:26, 27, we are told that man was made in the image and likeness of God (think of that – man is spiritual and Godlike, not God manlike!) we then come to these lines:

[COLOR="Purple"]And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Mary Baker Eddy observes on page 514 of her chapter on in Science and Health :

[COLOR="Blue"]Tenderness accompanies all the might imparted by Spirit. The individuality created by God is not carnivorous, as witness the millennial estate pictured by Isaiah:
[COLOR="Purple"]
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11)

That prophecy echoes the spiritual account of creation in Genesis 1, where there is no killing, no pain, no suffering, no lack, no limitation, no death. All is harmony and perfection. This is also echoed in Revelation 21:

[COLOR="Purple"]And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea…. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev 21)

So the Bible begins and ends with harmony and perfection.

So what I’m trying to say is that all this killing is not the way things should be, or are, in the spiritual realm of the real, but mankind has not yet progressed to the state of consciousness which would bring back the harmony that already exists in reality. A friend of mine looked after her sister’s cat and was very distressed when it kept bringing in birds and small animals. She spoke to it, telling it that its nature was not carnivorous, but it reflected divine Mind, Spirit, Love; that she fed it, so it didn’t need to kill in order to eat. From that day, the cat stopped killing.

This is a lovely article on grace - God’s unconditional love and blessings, with a wonderful healing. Its beginning is so beautiful:

[url]The healing power of grace[/url][COLOR="DarkGreen"]

… several years ago, I had an insight that really helped me make progress. I reasoned that if I were God, and had the opportunity to create all of creation, I wouldn’t create anything that could be hurtful or harmful. My love and wisdom wouldn’t allow it.
At that moment I understood that God simply couldn’t create anything hurtful or harmful, because He is completely loving and all-wise. With that added glimpse of reality, my prayers began changing. I went from imploring God to change evil or set it aside, to understanding more deeply who and what He is, and what He has already created—a reality that can include no evil.
I remember vividly when this insight became real and practical to me. Our teenage son had an after-school paper route. One day, he brought home a baby bird he had found on the street and asked if we could care for it. It was so young that it had no feathers and we weren’t sure what kind of bird it was. We set up a place for it on our screened back porch and did what we could to feed it.
Over the next several days, emerging feathers showed that it was a male robin, and, with originality, we named him Robin. It also became apparent that one of the bird’s legs was deformed—it was turned backward, and his opposed back toe was turned in the same direction as his other toes, so that he had no way of gripping a limb with that leg….

Love and peace,

Judy

As I was about to post this Judy's excellent post appeared, but I think we're sort of saying the same thing? Anyway here's my bit...

In Genesis the description of Eden is of a place free from suffering or violence, where all creatures live peacefully together...

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Genesis 1:29 - 30 (King James Version)

I believe much of the Old Testament to be allegorical and the description of Eden represents a transcendental, subtle state of existence. It is fairly obvious that we're not living in that Eden now.

Unlike Eden our sphere of existence allows for the possibility of pain and suffering. Here we use gross material manifestation to sustain a material body which is one reason why carnivorous animals, by their nature, prey on other animals for food. We, though, being human, are endowed with greater powers of intelligence and reasoning. We can choose between inflicting pain and suffering on our fellow creatures, or not, that's free will.

Many sects of Christianity believe that one way in which we can attain the original ideal 'Eden' state (ie liberation from suffering) is through causing no harm to other beings; do unto others (including animals) as we would have them do unto us, so they're vegetarian, and that's one reason why I'm vegetarian.

I am intrigued to know why you think the idea of animals eating other animals is sad and horrific when you enjoy eating meat yourself? If your meat eating is not sad and horrific to you (you say you enjoy it), then what do you think animals are doing that's so wrong?

Hi Judy

Thank you for the compliment on the name but it would be unfare of me to take credit for it when in reality it was a name borrowed from a member of a Hip Hop group who I enjoy listening and bobbing along to.

I really liked what you wrote it was informative and calming at the same time, I should make the effort to read the bible but I get frightened of the way in which it is written (gramatically). Have always felt that I have a fairly good grasp on everyday English but the bible well and truly takes it to the next level and its something my brain would have no trouble at all in turning into water which would then pour out of my ears lol and into the nearest drain.

All I can say is that God is very misunderstood but on the other hand unless you are willing to study hard then you can only use the limited ideas and basic understanding that can be learn't just from general knowledge. There is without a doubt so much to learn!

So many things I would like to say but the problem is getting it all out without blowing a fuse. Thank you so much for replying to my post, it has given me a lot of food for thought.

Good post Barafundle!

Hello again Alex,

Please don't put yourself down - don't belittle your ability to understand, because all your talents and abilities are the unique way that you express God! 🙂

If you ever decide to read the Bible, for goodness sake, don't begin with the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures, because though there is sublime wisdom and spirituality there, the thought of the people those thousands of years ago, while striving to be guided by moral laws, seemed to need to attach horrible punishments to these laws in order to control the people. It can be really off-putting.

As you so thoughtfully observe, God (who is all good) is indeed much misunderstood. Mary Baker Eddy writes:

[COLOR="Blue"]Tyranny, intolerance, and bloodshed, wherever found, arise from the belief that the infinite is formed after the pattern of mortal personality, passion, and impulse. (Science and Health 94)

It is our ignorance of God, the divine Principle, which produces apparent discord, and the right understanding of Him restores harmony. (Science and Health 390)

I would suggest that you begin by reading the 4 gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the New Testament, which are all various slants on the 3 years that Jesus spent preaching, teaching and healing. And, unlike the 400 year-old Bible that I (and Barafundle) have been quoting from (which I love for its beauty, majesty and poetry) I would suggest you read a modern version.

Here's one - the Message, by Eugene Peterson and here are some of the verses I'd quotes from above:

[COLOR="Purple"]From Genesis 1

God created human beings;
he created them godlike,
Reflecting God's nature.
He created them male and female.
God blessed them:
"Prosper! Reproduce! Fill Earth! Take charge!
Be responsible for fish in the sea and birds in the air,
for every living thing that moves on the face of Earth."

29-30 Then God said, "I've given you
every sort of seed-bearing plant on Earth
And every kind of fruit-bearing tree,
given them to you for food.
To all animals and all birds,
everything that moves and breathes,
I give whatever grows out of the ground for food."
And there it was.

The Isaiah prophecy:

6-9The wolf will romp with the lamb,
the leopard sleep with the kid.
Calf and lion will eat from the same trough,
and a little child will tend them.
Cow and bear will graze the same pasture,
their calves and cubs grow up together,
and the lion eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child will crawl over rattlesnake dens,
the toddler stick his hand down the hole of a serpent.

Love and peace,

Judy

In response to Barafundle - sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I do appreciate the time you took to reply to me.

Yeah its an interesting topic of conversation with regards to consuming meat and if there is such a thing as being guilty for it then I guess I'd have to put my hand up but it must be said that eating meat seems very natural and to a certain degree very important to maintain good health and if I remember rightly somewhere in the bible God mentions something about gifting us with enough fish in the ocean so that we can feed our family (not 100% sure if my thoughts are correct on that one) but if they are then doesn't it mean that he means for fish to be food? It's a bit of a tricky one because like I mentioned a minute ago it seems very natural to eat meat especially because meat itself holds certain nutrients vital to our health, like the oil from fish for example or the widely known healing benefits of beef

When I say that I don't like seeing animals killing one another it's also another way of saying how can there be God if this happens on earth?! I mean what kind of life is that for animals, you've only got to look at how paronoid birds are, its not often that you'll see one of the smaller ones just sitting on a fence enjoying the weather they have a very hectic energy and that is because if they don't then it will more then likely end as a toy for a cat, I don't just mean this towards birds but also the wider world and basically anything lower then a human on the food chain.

So thats something that depresses me to a point but then it may just be my over active imagination trying to box everything up into order and my lack of understanding in general.

That point there is one of the biggest stumbling blocks when it comes to my relationship with God or lack of. My heart tells me that there is more to life then what some schools of science want to stamp on and so it's then very normal for me to question what my hearts says and then end up in a in between world where I seem to reside most of the time.

Anyway its time for me to hit the sack so think its best to leave it there for tonight so I'll bid you all farewell and goodnight.

In response to Barafundle - sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I do appreciate the time you took to reply to me.

It is an interesting topic, Son (that doesn't sound right does it :)).

if there is such a thing as being guilty for it then I guess I'd have to put my hand up but it must be said that eating meat seems very natural and to a certain degree very important to maintain good health

If that applies to you, then why not to animals also?

It's a bit of a tricky one because like I mentioned a minute ago it seems very natural to eat meat especially because meat itself holds certain nutrients vital to our health, like the oil from fish for example or the widely known healing benefits of beef

Widely known healing benefits of eating beef? I don't think I know anyone who thinks eating beef has healing benefits. And the nutrients you mention aren't exclusively present in meat products.

When I say that I don't like seeing animals killing one another it's also another way of saying how can there be God if this happens on earth?!

You don't object to meat being provided for your consumption, and if you enjoy it as much as you do then should you not be thankful to God? And if you are thankful, then how much more thankful should a carnivorous animal be that lives without our resources. You seem to be applying standards to animal life that you don't apply to yourself. You can't blame God for the appetites we have, we're all ultimately responsible for them and we benefit or suffer accordingly. We incarnate here in order to express our natures, and that is what you and the animals are doing. All the world's a stage and all the men and women (and animals) merely players.

So thats something that depresses me to a point but then it may just be my over active imagination trying to box everything up into order and my lack of understanding in general.

It's only natural to try and make sense of the world around us and we all do it with a limited understanding. We're probably all guilty of trying to second guess the Infinite Absolute based, to some degree or other, on a very small view of creation. Have you tried praying for answers to these questions you have? It would be interesting to see what happens.