Divide is growing?

What is happening?

I feel all around as though the truth is cracking open as though the time for exposure is upon us. Like the past is catching up with people and we are being asked to choose.

I feel as though there is a huge sense of urgency and I feel as though all things must be aired and no words left unspoken.

Dear Survivor,

An interesting observation and yes, I feel it too but am not alarmed by it. Jesus said: "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." (Matt 10:26)

First of all though, there has always been evil trying to deny the omnipotence of God, good, but much of it was hidden in the past, while today, with instant communication, it comes right into our living rooms. For instance, I was thinking of how some of us watch movies of the 1950’s and think how wonderful life was then, innocent, with goodness, honesty abounding – and it did. People didn’t need to make their homes fortresses, or even lock their cars in many places. But all this horror in Jersey that is being uncovered was happening in those days.

There have been times of wars and heinous crimes against humanity in the name of religion throughout history too, but if their followers had even a glimpse of what true religion is (reconnecting with the divine) these just couldn’t happen. Like with Northern Ireland, it was really about one tribe fighting another – it was the struggle for political supremacy, for land, for wealth, for power (and also sometimes equality and justice - though how anyone thinks that you can find peace through murder is beyond me!).

At this time though, many individuals are searching for a higher understanding of what ultimate Truth (God) is, through many different paths. There is a huge spiritual movement of thought going on. We've had the years of heavy materialistic atheism, but it hasn't brought the satisfaction and fulfilment that it promises and so many feel an empty space which they try to fill with drugs or sex - but none of these truly satisfy and none bring lasting peace and happiness.

Some are finding paths not associated with any organised religion, while religions themselves are being examined like never before and their original pure origins and meaning sought. In the case of Christianity, original sacred texts which had been hidden are being uncovered and it is changing the way that people view what before was so fixed and dependable (from a materialistic viewpoint) This increase in spirituality is bringing its counterfeit to the surface through an increase in sensualism and wickedness alongside a material fundamentalist direction for those who are not secure in their religious beliefs and who are trying to stop this spiritual growth. So yes, there is a polarisation of thought going on.

We’ve just had Easter and think of the violent attempt to silence Jesus’ message that the Kingdom of Heaven was within, the attempt to keep things just the way they always had been – materialistic religion with rules and rituals and traditions more important than worshipping God through our lives lived to love.

Mary Baker Eddy, a religious reformer of the 19th Century (who also suffered persecution for her radical views) wrote: “The real cross, which Jesus bore up the hill of grief, was the world's hatred of Truth and Love.” (Science and Health p 50)

The Bible begins and ends with a description of absolute Reality – in Genesis 1 and Revelation 21 (after a great battle between good and its counterfeit, evil) and in many ways, this is what is going on at the moment. To me, it’s a good sign, much better than apathy and evil being hidden. This is rather a heavy post, but you’ve asked the question and this is how I see it.

Eddy gave the name “animal magnetism” to evil – it’s the hypnotic pull towards the animal and material away from the spiritual and divine.

The mild forms of animal magnetism are disappearing, and its aggressive features are coming to the front. The looms of crime, hidden in the dark recesses of mortal thought, are every hour weaving webs more complicated and subtle. So secret are the present methods of animal magnetism that they ensnare the age into indolence, and produce the very apathy on the subject which the criminal desires. (Science and Health p 102)

But then, she predicts this:

The march of mind and of honest investigation will bring the hour when the people will chain, with fetters of some sort, the growing occultism of this period. The present apathy as to the tendency of certain active yet unseen mental agencies will finally be shocked into another extreme mortal mood,--into human indignation; for one extreme follows another. (Science and Health p 570)

But I also feel as though victims of crime have to find the courage to stand and be heard.

That answers your observation doesn't it? Surely too this is what we are seeing with the protests about Tibet, with the growing movement for the freedom and equality of women, of the refusal to accept corruption and sleeze (so far at least within Western governments?)

Eddy also describes what is happening as chemicalisation – as when a two chemicals coming together cause a reaction. There are so many descriptions of this in Eddy’s seminal work Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures and here are just a few passages:

Science (absolute Reality) only can explain the incredible good and evil elements now coming to the surface. Mortals must find refuge in Truth in order to escape the error of these latter days. (Science and Health p 83)

There are two pages here about this struggle as Spirit washes away the belief in evil:

And here are a few more:

In Isaiah we read: "I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things;" but the prophet referred to divine law as stirring up the belief in evil to its utmost, when bringing it to the surface and reducing it to its common denominator, nothingness. The muddy river-bed must be stirred in order to purify the stream. In moral chemicalization, when the symptoms of evil, illusion, are aggravated, we may think in our ignorance that the Lord hath wrought an evil; but we ought to know that God's law uncovers so-called sin and its effects, only that Truth may annihilate all sense of evil and all power to sin. (Science and Health p 540)

Evil is sometimes a man's highest conception of right, until his grasp on good grows stronger. Then he loses pleasure in wickedness, and it becomes his torment. (Science and Health p 327)

Erring human mind-forces can work only evil under whatever name or pretence they are employed; for Spirit and matter, good and evil, light and darkness, cannot mingle.
Evil is a negation, because it is the absence of truth. It is nothing, because it is the absence of something. It is unreal, because it presupposes the absence of God, the omnipotent and omnipresent. Every mortal must learn that there is neither power nor reality in evil.
Evil is self-assertive. It says: "I am a real entity, overmastering good." This falsehood should strip evil of all pretensions. The only power of evil is to destroy itself. It can never destroy one iota of good. (Science and Health p 186)

Whew!

Love and peace,

Judy

Thanks Principled!

Your knowledge of the scriptures is admirable.

I am very interested in Mary Baker Eddy and her messages.

Love & Light
XXXXXXXXXXXX

II Timothy 3:1-5

"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.+
================================================================
II Timothy 3:1-5 is basically how I feel. People are getting away from the true gospel and replacing it with counterfeits. Instead of worshiping God, they are trying to make themselves gods...

As a side note, Principled, why do Christian Scientists call themselves "Christians" when they reject almost every major doctrine of Christianity? From the Bible as the sole inerrant source of authority, to the Trinity, to Jesus Christ, to the resurrection, to salvation, to the existance of hell, and to disease and death...among other things. I'm just asking...

I don't really think the times today are any different to the days of II Timothy. There have been great empires come and go, genocide has happened many times. Now we have another empire growing in the west, but I'm sure they will have their time like any other.

If you look through the history of the world I'm sure you can find instances of what Paul was describing in any age. There is a big danger of only interpreting the world through the eyes of the bible and making the world fit into the Christian's idea of future events.

There is only one real challenge to the world and that's feeding the poor, protecting the weak and educating the un-schooled. If anything that makes me feel unhappy about the state of things in the world is that while I type these words more die through not having the their basic needs met.

Myarka.

Ace88

When I did my A level RE and was a practising Christian, I was told that Paul was writing in concealed terms about Roman society in those days. They thought that they were living in the end days then, and Paul was confirming them in that belief. It was ever thus, I think you'll find. The difference between then and now is that we are exposed to human nature more than ever before with mass media.

Ace88

When I did my A level RE and was a practising Christian, I was told that Paul was writing in concealed terms about Roman society in those days. They thought that they were living in the end days then, and Paul was confirming them in that belief. It was ever thus, I think you'll find. The difference between then and now is that we are exposed to human nature more than ever before with mass media.

I think today's society is worse. TV, movies, magazines, and especially the internet, have opened kids up to all sorts of sexual perversions they they weren't exposed to years ago. It's nearly unavoidable. It is very hard to raise your child in an ethical way when he or she is surrounded by pornorgraphy, TV shows that don't value marriage and cheapen it, and who don't even think there is a such thing as monogamy. I can only speak for America, but in the 50's, the biggest problems in schools were kids running in the halls or chewing gum. Now, you have drugs and kids carrying weapons to schools. This happened at about the same time they took God out of the classrooms...

The other thing is, you used to be able to respectfully disagree with people and that was it. Now, people feel the need to poke fun at your religion and insult you. There are no manners, and people really are lovers of themselves...and basically think that they are god.

That's just my opinion.

I don't really think the times today are any different to the days of II Timothy. There have been great empires come and go, genocide has happened many times. Now we have another empire growing in the west, but I'm sure they will have their time like any other.

If you look through the history of the world I'm sure you can find instances of what Paul was describing in any age. There is a big danger of only interpreting the world through the eyes of the bible and making the world fit into the Christian's idea of future events.

There is only one real challenge to the world and that's feeding the poor, protecting the weak and educating the un-schooled. If anything that makes me feel unhappy about the state of things in the world is that while I type these words more die through not having the their basic needs met.

Myarka.

The Bible has been right about prophecy of future events an awful lot of times, so I don't see reason to doubt it about the end times. As for protecting the weak, feeding the poor, educated the unschooled, and all those things...they are all very important. However, I still think the #1 call of the gospel, at least in the Bible, is to "preach the gospel to every creature", or to the "ends or the earth."

I think today's society is worse. TV, movies, magazines, and especially the internet, have opened kids up to all sorts of sexual perversions they they weren't exposed to years ago. It's nearly unavoidable. It is very hard to raise your child in an ethical way when he or she is surrounded by pornorgraphy, TV shows that don't value marriage and cheapen it, and who don't even think there is a such thing as monogamy. I can only speak for America, but in the 50's, the biggest problems in schools were kids running in the halls or chewing gum. Now, you have drugs and kids carrying weapons to schools. This happened at about the same time they took God out of the classrooms...

The majority of children in the world don't have access to the internet and a large proportion don't even have the basic needs for life. In the 50s America still had segregation in many states, and the "Indian Termination Policy" that tried to force Native Americans to live like white Americans?

Myarka

Why Christian Science is Christian

As a side note, Principled, why do Christian Scientists call themselves "Christians" when they reject almost every major doctrine of Christianity? From the Bible as the sole inerrant source of authority, to the Trinity, to Jesus Christ, to the resurrection, to salvation, to the existance of hell, and to disease and death...among other things. I'm just asking...

Hi Ace,
I’m really grateful that you’ve given me this opportunity to reply! :1kis:

Would you agree with me that as followers of Christ Jesus, honesty and integrity should not be compromised? I really really believe that Jesus would have expected his followers to be honest (and I hope you do to!) Yet, there are books, pamphlets and websites galore which either ignorantly or maliciously tell lies, distort the truth or take sentences out of context to make them appear to mean what they do not.

During Mary Baker Eddy’s day, there was yellow journalism galore and the papers and magazines would try to find anyone who would sell them a sensational story, which would increase their circulation. In those days, there were no libel laws. Some of these articles and books are still used today by individuals wishing to malign Christian Science. They do not bother to check if the facts are true and worse still (sadly with most of the “Christian” sites) even when the truth about the falsehoods are pointed out, they choose to ignore it and do not correct the "information" on their websites or books.

Just to put the basics on record, we believe in the virgin birth, in the crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Here for example is just one quote from the chapter on Jesus’ mission in Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy, [url]Atonement and Eucharist[/url] (That is a link to the chapter)

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Our Master fully and finally demonstrated divine Science in his victory over death and the grave. Jesus' deed was for the enlightenment of men and for the salvation of the whole world from sin, sickness, and death. (Science and Health 45)

You know what Ace? I’m fine with anyone who disagrees with the theology of Christian Science, so long as they have used original source material, have actually studied the CS textbook Science and Health from cover to cover and tested it for themselves. I’m fine with that, (no-one has to agree with what we believe) but to condemn on the basis of ignorance and using second-hand malice and falsehood as their source, well, to me, that is not following Christ. (I’m not accusing you of malice Ace, as I know you are a good and sincere Christian – just these websites, etc) So I hope , that you are honest and fair-minded enough to give what I write a chance to answer those biased critics you have been reading.

When she was eight year old, little Mary Baker was called by God, in a similar way to the prophet Samuel. Here is a link to the account from her autobiography:[url]Voices Not Our Own[/url]

Then, in 1866 she had the experience that she called her “falling apple” . You can read it from her autobiography here [url]The Great Discovery[/url] and there is also an account in Science and Health in the chapter [url]Science, Theology, Medicine[/url] Here are a few excerpts:

St. Paul writes: "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This knowledge came to me in an hour of great need; and I give it to you as death-bed testimony to the daystar that dawned on the night of material sense. This knowledge is practical, for it wrought my immediate recovery from an injury caused by an accident, and pronounced fatal by the physicians. On the third day thereafter, I called for my Bible, and opened it at Matthew ix. 2. As I read, the healing Truth dawned upon my sense; and the result was that I rose, dressed myself, and ever after was in better health than I had before enjoyed. That short experience included a glimpse of the great fact that I have since tried to make plain to others, namely, Life in and of Spirit; this Life being the sole reality of existence. (Miscellaneous Writings 24)

For three years after my discovery, I sought the solution of this problem of Mind-healing, searched the Scriptures and read little else, kept aloof from society, and devoted time and energies to discovering a positive rule. The search was sweet, calm, and buoyant with hope, not selfish nor depressing. I knew the Principle of all harmonious Mind-action to be God, and that cures were produced in primitive Christian healing by holy, uplifting faith; but I must know the Science of this healing, and I won my way to absolute conclusions through divine revelation, reason, and demonstration. The revelation of Truth in the understanding came to me gradually and apparently through divine power. When a new spiritual idea is borne to earth, the prophetic Scripture of Isaiah is renewedly fulfilled: "Unto us a child is born, . . . and his name shall be called Wonderful." (Science and Health 109)

In following these leadings of scientific revelation, the Bible was my only textbook. The Scriptures were illumined; reason and revelation were reconciled, and afterwards the truth of Christian Science was demonstrated. (Science and Health 110)

(The Bible) answered my questions as to how I was healed; but the Scriptures had to me a new meaning, a new tongue. Their spiritual signification appeared; and I apprehended for the first time, in their spiritual meaning, Jesus' teaching and demonstration, and the Principle and rule of spiritual Science and metaphysical healing,--in a word, Christian Science. Ret 27

These are our religious tenets – you will never find these published in any article that tries to perpetuate the lies that are circulated about Christian Science:

Question.-- Have Christian Scientists any religious creed?
Answer.-- They have not, if by that term is meant doctrinal beliefs. The following is a brief exposition of the important points, or religious tenets, of Christian Science:--
1. As adherents of Truth, we take the inspired Word of the Bible as our sufficient guide to eternal Life.
2. We acknowledge and adore one supreme and infinite God. We acknowledge His Son, one Christ; the Holy Ghost or divine Comforter; and man in God's image and likeness.
3. We acknowledge God's forgiveness of sin in the destruction of sin and the spiritual understanding that casts out evil as unreal. But the belief in sin is punished so long as the belief lasts.
4. We acknowledge Jesus' atonement as the evidence of divine, efficacious Love, unfolding man's unity with God through Christ Jesus the Way-shower; and we acknowledge that man is saved through Christ, through Truth, Life, and Love as demonstrated by the Galilean Prophet in healing the sick and overcoming sin and death.
5. We acknowledge that the crucifixion of Jesus and his resurrection served to uplift faith to understand eternal Life, even the allness of Soul, Spirit, and the nothingness of matter.
6. And we solemnly promise to watch, and pray for that Mind to be in us which was also in Christ Jesus; to do unto others as we would have them do unto us; and to be merciful, just, and pure.

To go into this deeper, here are 32 steps of the metaphysics of Christian Science.

And finally, let’s move to the present day and see the fruits of this understanding. Here is a wonderful account of someone who was once a sincere Christian, then became disillusioned:

[url]Now my heart sings[/url]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]At my university, a Bible professor became sick with a fatal disease. He was a favorite of the students—such a wonderful man. We all prayed through the night, asking God for a miracle. But none came. I was absolutely devastated. Why wouldn’t God heal him? I felt totally let down by God. I wasn’t angry at Him, just crushed at not knowing why sometimes He did miracles and sometimes He didn’t. It was all just chance, I thought, but mainly it was probably because I just didn’t have enough faith or something. But I didn’t know how to get faith.

Then a friend introduced me to a Christian Science practitioner. I told the practitioner that I would like to talk to her, but that I never wanted the word God mentioned because that word meant nothing to me—she might as well know that up front. I thought, What does that word actually mean? I didn’t want to have another religious conversation with someone just throwing around clichés…

Even if you don’t read any of the other links I’ve posted Ace, I hope you will read this one. It includes a healing of a tumour on her little dog and then bringing back to life a puppy that had been still born – all through prayer alone.

God bless you Ace – I know you are sincere and honest.

Judy

The majority of children in the world don't have access to the internet and a large proportion don't even have the basic needs for life. In the 50s America still had segregation in many states, and the "Indian Termination Policy" that tried to force Native Americans to live like white Americans?

Myarka

I suppose you have points there...I guess maybe I am comparing the 80's to now. I just think the internet, while doing a lot of good, is being used for a lot of bad things as well.

I just think the internet, while doing a lot of good, is being used for a lot of bad things as well.

I think the problem is that people don't understand that the internet is similar to a shopping mall. Would you give your children freedom to visit whatever shop? Or talk to strangers? Or go to an x rated cinema? Entering the internet is the same as going out of your front door, it has the same things, the only difference is that they are at the finger tip. So is the internet any worse than outside? Well if you live in NC then perhaps, but it's still there, you just have to lift more stones.

In a way the internet doesn't change the nature of sin, it just makes it more accessable. However, the nature of sin is another a debate for another thread. But as Jesus taught sin begins in the heart, therefore it's up to the individual what they do with temptation.

Myarka.

I can only speak for America, but in the 50's, the biggest problems in schools were kids running in the halls or chewing gum. Now, you have drugs and kids carrying weapons to schools. This happened at about the same time they took God out of the classrooms...

You obviously never read Nicky Cruz's "Run Baby Run" or "The Cross and the Switchblade", which when I was a churchgoing teenager in the 1970s were books our Sunday School teachers insisted we read: they are both about gangs in 1950s America. I suggest you try and get hold of copies of both, read them, and then tell me it's worse now.

Oh and as for taking God out of classrooms, over here it's the law that children have to attend Christian assemblies at least weekly, and have Religious Education until the age of 14. And our problems are at least as bad as in the US. So that proves, I guess, that the absence of religious education in schools has nothing to do with lawlessness in society.

I am still reading through the replys here, but thought I would mention my take on christianity. And how I percieve there to be a limitation to the christan teaching. Primarily because of male influence on what should be taught, shared or exchanged with fellow men and in particular women. It seems as though the church elders would debate long and hard as to what scriptures if any should be shared with women. With the head of the household taking control over the scriptures to be learnt. With out the ability to read & write due to lack of education. The learned where usually rich and affluent men who had a lot of control & power over what verbal interpretation they would put on the word of god. How do we know how many scriptures have been destroyed by men so to prevent females from believing that they have equal spiritual potential.

XXX

I am still reading through the replys here, but thought I would mention my take on christianity. And how I percieve there to be a limitation to the christan teaching. Primarily because of male influence on what should be taught, shared or exchanged with fellow men and in particular women. It seems as though the church elders would debate long and hard as to what scriptures if any should be shared with women. With the head of the household taking control over the scriptures to be learnt. With out the ability to read & write due to lack of education. The learned where usually rich and affluent men who had a lot of control & power over what verbal interpretation they would put on the word of god. How do we know how many scriptures have been destroyed by men so to prevent females from believing that they have equal spiritual potential.

XXX

This doesn’t just apply to Christian teachings; this applies to a lot of religions and faiths, maybe all of them? And there are also belief systems out there that celebrate the feminine too.:)

Depending on where you live and your cultural background many women have as much opportunity as men to find themselves spiritually. As a woman, a person, I can read teachings or scriptures and see the ‘human’ restrictions in them whether that be gender related, culturally related etc. It is up to me to discern through these words and pick out what works for me.

I don’t worry so much about where a religion, faith is going wrong for me; I concentrate more on how it can enhance me. There is good and bad in all, such is life. That's how it works for me, anyhow.:)

Love & happiness,

RxXx

Hi Cirrus,

While I totally agree with everything else that you wrote, this bit needs clarification.

This doesn’t just apply to Christian teachings; this applies to a lot of religions and faiths, maybe all of them?

Certainly, Jesus did not discriminate against women, but sadly, after the church was established by Constantine, they were written out of the history and those old attitudes are still prevalent today!

This is a website I find really useful and these pages on women in the church are worth perusing. I'll share a few snippets.

Marginalization of Christian women after the apostolic period

The Beloved Disciple and the Author of the Fourth Gospel:
John? (and which John?) OR possibly a woman?

Here are two quotes from the BibleTexts pages on women, the first about ICor 14:35:

From The Oxford Bible Commentary

edited by John Barton and John Muddiman (NY: Oxford University Press, 2001, page 1130, article by John Barclay)

Either Paul is truly inconsistent here, reacting against a threat of 'unruly' women by forbidding their verbal participation, despite what he had earlier allowed [e.g., 1Co 11:2-16, where women were understood as publicly praying and proclaiming]. Or this passage is an interpolation into the letter by a later editor, one who took the opportunity of the surrounding context to introduce the restrictive ethos of the Pastoral Letters (e.g. 1 Tim 2:8-15, part of a letter generally regarded as written by a later Paulinist, not by Paul himself). This latter option is favoured by many commentators, and it is given slight textual support by the fact that some manuscripts place verses 34-35 at the end of the chapter, rather in their present location; that might indicate that they were once a marginal gloss which was inserted by scribes a varying points in the the original text...

And I find this bit about wearing the chadar very illuminating:

Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously but Not Literally
by Marcus J. Borg (NY: HarperCollins, 2001, page 262, footnote 64)

Passages speaking of the subordination of women and wives are all found in letters most likely not written by Paul. ………………………………………it is important to underline that Paul does not say that women should not pray or prophesy in church, only that they should be veiled when doing so. Finally, it is interesting to note that Paul grew up in a city (Tarsus) which women wore the complete chadar in public, completely covering them from head to foot (including their faces). Thus it is possible that Paul found unveiled women rather shocking.

As a Christian, I would rather take Jesus' example and words than any other's. As I said above, he did not discriminate against women, but of course, in those days he could not have had women travelling with him as his disciples or they would have been considered whores.

Bible scholars now are discovering from research centred around an 8-page fragment of the Gospel of Mary of Magdala which was lost for 1,500 years, that Mary was an apostle of Jesus and an important Christian leader. John's Gospel depicts Mary as the first to see the risen Jesus and then to proclaim the resurrection to the other disciples.

It was only after the church was organised under Roman Emperor Constantine that women were written out and the gospels by them were also deemed “heretic”. There was resistance to the idea of women having spiritual authority even more in those days than now! Peter and some of the others marginalised her and she was left out of the books chosen to form the New Testament. Then, in 591, Pope Gregory the Great falsely identified her as the unnamed sinful woman in the Bible (Luke 7:37) Almost 1400 years later, in 1969, the church officially corrected its error, though it lingers in public consciousness.

Here is an excerpt from the gospel written by Mary. She has told the disciples some of the teachings that Jesus only gave to her:

]Chapter 9

1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.

2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.

3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.

7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.

8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.

9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.

[

In 1891, Mary Baker Eddy wrote:
[COLOR="Navy"]
In natural law and in religion the right of woman to fill the highest measure of enlightened understanding and the highest places in government, is inalienable, and these rights are ably vindicated by the noblest of both sexes. This is woman's hour, with all its sweet amenities and its moral and religious reforms.
Drifting into intellectual wrestlings, we should agree to disagree; and this harmony would anchor the Church in more spiritual latitudes, and so fulfil her destiny.
Let the Word have free course and be glorified. The people clamor to leave cradle and swaddling-clothes. The spiritual status is urging its highest demands on mortals, and material history is drawing to a close. Truth cannot be stereotyped; it unfoldeth forever. (No and Yes 45)

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi to you, Judy,

The point that I was making that is always upper most in my mind is basically this:

Certainly, Jesus did not discriminate against women, but sadly, after the church was established by Constantine, they were written out of the history and those old attitudes are still prevalent today!

I will have a look through the rest of your post later on.:)

Got to pop off now, but didn't want to go without some sort of reply. But basically, I am with you on this. The reason for my post is that I don't have a problem with Christianity and that sometimes I feel it gets a bit of a bad press and a lot of the good it does can get lost in this negativity.

Sorry for such a rushed post,:o

RxXx 🙂

The reason for my post is that I don't have a problem with Christianity and that sometimes I feel it gets a bit of a bad press and a lot of the good it does can get lost in this negativity.

You are so right! So much good has come out of Christianity, (the anti-slavery movement, charities, volunteering, altruism, and anti-war movements etc) though you would think it was responsible for all the evil in the world if you believed everything that is written about it! Sadly, in all religions, there are the fundamentalsts who follow the letter and not the spirit but they are always the minority who get all the attention.

Love and peace,

Judy

I am still reading through the replys here, but thought I would mention my take on christianity. And how I percieve there to be a limitation to the christan teaching. Primarily because of male influence on what should be taught, shared or exchanged with fellow men and in particular women. It seems as though the church elders would debate long and hard as to what scriptures if any should be shared with women. With the head of the household taking control over the scriptures to be learnt. With out the ability to read & write due to lack of education. The learned where usually rich and affluent men who had a lot of control & power over what verbal interpretation they would put on the word of god. How do we know how many scriptures have been destroyed by men so to prevent females from believing that they have equal spiritual potential.

XXX

This attitude, to me, is just a renaissance of paganism, with its worship of goddesses. This existed back in the times of the Bible and was warned against, as there only is one true God. Goddess worship paved the way for feminism, which in turn, partially gave birth to the increase in lesbianism. When the Bible talks about men and women, it is talking about roles in the church and perhaps spiritually in family life. It does not say anything about women not being able to have corporate jobs or that women cannot be the boss of men. Of course, pride in our society is a big reason why many women cannot accept the teachings of the Bible. If you asked the women in my church if they felt mistreated by their husbands, the clear answer in most cases would be no. It's not hard for a wife to treat her husband with respect as as the head of household when the husband loves her and respects her.

You obviously never read Nicky Cruz's "Run Baby Run" or "The Cross and the Switchblade", which when I was a churchgoing teenager in the 1970s were books our Sunday School teachers insisted we read: they are both about gangs in 1950s America. I suggest you try and get hold of copies of both, read them, and then tell me it's worse now.

Oh and as for taking God out of classrooms, over here it's the law that children have to attend Christian assemblies at least weekly, and have Religious Education until the age of 14. And our problems are at least as bad as in the US. So that proves, I guess, that the absence of religious education in schools has nothing to do with lawlessness in society.

Since the Supreme Court banned school prayer in 1963:

• the murder rate tripled;
• Violent crime went up 544%;
• Prior to 1963, divorce had been declining for 15 consecutive years. After 1963, the divorce rate more than doubled;
• unwed birth rates 10-14 years of age shot up 553% by 1983;
• Sexually transmitted disease rates (15-19 years of age range) shot up 226% by 1975;
• the percent of children living in fatherless households increased from 6% to 40%.

I am reminded of this....
it can just take one person to believe in you to make that difference.

Since the Supreme Court banned school prayer in 1963:

• the murder rate tripled;
• Violent crime went up 544%;
• Prior to 1963, divorce had been declining for 15 consecutive years. After 1963, the divorce rate more than doubled;
• unwed birth rates 10-14 years of age shot up 553% by 1983;
• Sexually transmitted disease rates (15-19 years of age range) shot up 226% by 1975;
• the percent of children living in fatherless households increased from 6% to 40%.

Perhaps you should move somewhere safer? 😮

This really has nothing to do with school prayers and has more to do with western society. As I said on another thread the rate of murder has gone up in proportion with ice cream sales, and we all know ice cream doesn't make you murder.

Western society has some major problems, but is it any worse than when the UK controlled the world's opium trade? Or when the old imperial empires went and destroyed other cultures?

The breakdown of the family and the lack of strong role models has contributed to the problems, as has the sexualisation of youth culture. But has this got to do with US schools stopping morning prayer? I don't think so because many non-christian cultures don't have these problems.

Personally I think the growth of these social ills is because of the commercialisation of society and the hard sell of materialistic success. This has caused the divide between the rich and poor to grow and the mess that the world banking system is suffering now. People are driven by consumerism and trying to live a clone celebrity lifestyle financed by credit, instead of working towards providing for the family.

If there is a divide in the world, it's that the majority of people in the developed world are happier to let a child starve than forego the latest mobile phone.

Myarka

Myarka always talks a lot of sense! 😉

You know Ace, I'm pleased that you posted those statistics because, here in the UK, I'm sure ours are similar, but with the addition of basic religious instruction in school. However, only 4% of people in the UK go to church (though over 70% consider themselves "Christian"), as compared to (I think) about 40% in the US who attend church.

To me, the breakdown is a combination of many things. Obviously the greatest influence on our children is parents, extended families and home life. However, I have known teenagers from loving Christian families, who have been through Sunday School, attended church, but yet gone off the rails.

To me, as Myarka says, I think it's more the influence of "Western" culture, especially peer pressure. Books, magazines, movies, computer games and TV, videos etc show kids that the way to deal with their problems is to exterminate their opponent, with violence and even murder.

It seems now that extreme emotions/stimulants/experiences are what everyone thinks they need, and so drugs and alcohol are turned to to induce a heightened sense of "fun" But is it?

The same with sex, which is no longer considered something special, something sacred, something to be cherished and honoured. It has been over-exposed, over-rated and degraded. It's so in-your-face now that I feel it's almost come to be regarded like cleaning your teeth! It's tragic, especially when youngsters who do not have the emotional maturity go into it blindly, with so often the result being unwanted and uncared-for babies and then the whole cycle starts again.

Instead of worshipping the divine, our society is now mesmerised with celebrity worship and this so often makes people feel insecure, unworthy, undesirable because they don't look like/have the possessions of, or the fame of those who they live their lives through.

But I like to remind myself that the real identity of each of us is pure, innocent and spiritual and that when people seem to be going in the wrong direction, it's simply that they are looking for what is real and substantial in its counterfeit. For instance, Addicts are so often looking for self-worth, satisfaction, lasting joy, security, peace and love, but they will never be satisfied until they turn in the right direction. Their emptiness will never be filled or satisfied for long, with material stimulants.

People who abuse children and others sexually, or those who indulge in all sorts of unmentionables are actually looking for divine Love, God, but again are going to the wrong place for it.

I feel that the answer lies in the moral guidance and boundaries that come from all religions. Society needs to be founded on a higher platform. But this has to come from within, not without. You can't force people (or scare them) into changing the way they view life and society. It needs a whole shift of consciousness back to basics.

Here's a helpful article about protecting our children from society's influences:

Love and peace,

Judy

Ace88, you can "prove" anything with statistics. You don't for example, quote the growth in other religions in the United States - I'm sure there are other religions there but to listen to American Christians you'd think it wasn't allowed! Or what about the growth in literacy over the same time period? Is that the cause of all these social ills? I don't think so. Just because there is a correlation does not imply there is a causal relationship. This is an example of the sort of sloppy thinking so popular in the Western media and in the population of the West as a whole.

To gain any sort of conclusion from those statistics we have to look at a control population, in other words, a similar country where daily prayer in schools wasn't banned. And that is the case in the UK. Now go and find the statistics for the UK for the time period (Wikipedia may well help you do that) and come back here and tell us how they compare. (I'd do it myself but I've just worked a 12 hour day and I'm a bit tired.)

Ace88, you can "prove" anything with statistics. You don't for example, quote the growth in other religions in the United States - I'm sure there are other religions there but to listen to American Christians you'd think it wasn't allowed! Or what about the growth in literacy over the same time period? Is that the cause of all these social ills? I don't think so. Just because there is a correlation does not imply there is a causal relationship. This is an example of the sort of sloppy thinking so popular in the Western media and in the population of the West as a whole.

To gain any sort of conclusion from those statistics we have to look at a control population, in other words, a similar country where daily prayer in schools wasn't banned. And that is the case in the UK. Now go and find the statistics for the UK for the time period (Wikipedia may well help you do that) and come back here and tell us how they compare. (I'd do it myself but I've just worked a 12 hour day and I'm a bit tired.)

Chris, I'm not saying we can determine the reasons behind the statistics I gave you accurately. However, while I may not agree with all religious points with Principled, we totally agree on one thing. TV, magazines, movies, and the internet have taken over society, and they are a big reason for the rise in crime. We are constantly flooded with sex, people sleeping around, no commitment in relationships, as wells as violent movies and people with twisted minds - no more family oriented shows on TV. It's really terrible.

Dear Ace,

We are in agreement in far more areas than you realise! 😉

We would have such a different society, if all children were given the spiritual understanding of the moral foundation of the 10 Commandments (which are found in all religions and which form the basis for civil law in the West) through loving these laws, rather than seeing them as a threat. More especially, they should be given the spiritual foundation, understanding and demonstration of the Sermon on the Mount, (Matthew 5-7) of which Mary Baker Eddy observed:
[COLOR="Blue"]
…our Master's greatest utterance may well be called "the diamond sermon." No purer and more exalted teachings ever fell upon human ears than those contained in what is commonly known as the Sermon on the Mount,… (Retrospection & Introspection 91)

Jesus loved little children because of their freedom from wrong and their receptiveness of right. (Science and Health 236)

Children should be allowed to remain children in knowledge, and should become men and women only through growth in the understanding of man's higher nature. (Science and Health 62)

God has endowed man with inalienable rights, among which are self-government, reason, and conscience. Man is properly self- governed only when he is guided rightly and governed by his Maker, divine Truth and Love.
Man's rights are invaded when the divine order is interfered with, and the mental trespasser incurs the divine penalty due this crime. (Science and health 106)

From lack of moral strength empires fall. Right alone is irresistible, permanent, eternal. (Miscellaneous Writings 268)

Sin punishes itself - evil is its own destruction. Eddy prophesied that:
[COLOR="Blue"]
The march of mind and of honest investigation will bring the hour when the people will chain, with fetters of some sort, the growing occultism of this period. The present apathy as to the tendency of certain active yet unseen mental agencies will finally be shocked into another extreme mortal mood,--into human indignation; for one extreme follows another. (Science and health 570)

Occultism is what is secret, hidden. Well, so many evils, as Survivor said at the beginning of this thread, are now coming to the surface. I feel we have seen this with the overthrow of Communism in the West and now, the outrage at all the scandals coming our of financial corruption which has led to ruin to so many. There is a growing outrage at drunkenness, knife crime, gang culture here in the UK. Eventually, I believe, people will say no to the blatant sensuality which degrades and corrupts love and relationships.
[COLOR="Blue"]
In a world of sin and sensuality hastening to a greater development of power, it is wise earnestly to consider whether it is the human mind or the divine Mind which is influencing one. (Science and Health 82)

This echoes Paul’s words:
[COLOR="Purple"]
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. (Philippians 4)

Love and peace,

Judy

We would have such a different society, if all children were given the spiritual understanding of the moral foundation of the 10 Commandments (which are found in all religions and which form the basis for civil law in the West) through loving these laws, rather than seeing them as a threat.

Only monotheistic religions can be described as being based on the 10 commandmants. The first 4 would certainly not be applicable to polytheistic religions.

There are no crimes of thought in the UK and therefore there is no law against coveting.

I've not seen any court cases being taken out because of parents not being honoured. Actually it seems to be the reverse, i.e. the parents responsibility towards their children. It's true that society has outlawed murder and theft, but we didn't need judeo-christian religions to tell us that. Adultery and defamation of character are covered by civil law.

While there is a link between church and state in the UK, freedom of religion is still a right under the British constitution. Although it's true that the 10 commandments have influenced British law, I think it's an over statement to say they form a basis of law, when the majority of the commandments are irrelevant to the legal process.

Well, so many evils....I feel we have seen this with the overthrow of Communism in the West and now,

Communism is no more evil than capitalism, in fact many communist countries tend to be more law abiding than many "developed" countries.

Myarka

Chris, I'm not saying we can determine the reasons behind the statistics I gave you accurately. However, while I may not agree with all religious points with Principled, we totally agree on one thing. TV, magazines, movies, and the internet have taken over society, and they are a big reason for the rise in crime. We are constantly flooded with sex, people sleeping around, no commitment in relationships, as wells as violent movies and people with twisted minds - no more family oriented shows on TV. It's really terrible.

Well it's not the same in the UK! I would put the rise in crime over here more at the door of Thatcher, with her "no such thing as society" mentality: the atomisation of society into individuals has created a society where only one person counts and that's you. I'd recommend Robert Putnam's book "Bowling Alone" for an account of this demise of social capital in the US.

Oh Myarka,

I should have realised you’d be down on me like a ton of bricks! :007: 😀

Communism is no more evil than capitalism, in fact many communist countries tend to be more law abiding than many "developed" countries.

I agree with you that the pure basis of Communism is not evil (after all, that is exactly what the early Christians practised, when they shared everything) However, in practice, when you have a regime that has to lock its people in to prevent them escaping to freedom, something is very wrong. But Cuba has always done pretty well and China is improving in its human rights, but rather too slowly. I wasn’t thinking Communism versus Capitalism, but Communism versus Democracy.

Only monotheistic religions can be described as being based on the 10 commandmants. The first 4 would certainly not be applicable to polytheistic religions.

I wrote this in a hurry this morning and didn’t expect it to be taken literally, but expected everyone to understand that I was talking about the spirit of the 10 Commandments, not the literal word by word interpretation. Just as the Golden Rule (which sums up the human last 6 commandments) is found in all religions and philosophies, so the spirit of the Hebrew Dacalogue is right there in all teachings which transcend the merely human. All religions, including Buddhism, which does not have a concept of a Deity, very much has an acknowledgement and understanding of the divine! Though these are the Christianity pages, I said “all religions” as, unlike some Christians, I believe that God loves all HisHer creation unconditionally and imparts spiritual insights, inspiration and understanding to all who are listening.

There are no crimes of thought in the UK and therefore there is no law against coveting.

Coveting surely is at the root of most theft and often violence, when people feel resentful at others having what they don’t have? Those tragic cases where a father (or mother) will kill their children rather than be separated from them after divorce. If everyone lived by the spirit of the Commandments, then jealousy, envy, resentment etc would be unknown and we wouldn't need the laws about theft and murder!

I've not seen any court cases being taken out because of parents not being honoured. Actually it seems to be the reverse, i.e. the parents responsibility towards their children.

But surely, it's not honouring parents that is one of the causes of the break-down of discipline? And yes, of course I agree with you about parents honouring children, but we are talking here about writings that are over 3,000 years old and which of course were influenced by where thought was at that time.

It's true that society has outlawed murder and theft, but we didn't need judeo-christian religions to tell us that.

But that's my whole point when I said above: "if all children were given the spiritual understanding of the moral foundation of the 10 Commandments." There is a divine order which is recognised in all religions but which actually transcends theological differences.

[COLOR="Blue"]God has endowed man with inalienable rights, among which are self-government, reason, and conscience. Man is properly self-governed only when he is guided rightly and governed by his Maker, divine Truth and Love.
Man's rights are invaded when the divine order is interfered with... (Science and Health 106)

And when we live by these higher ways, we feel at peace and harmony is the outcome. It's because of the breakdown of this natural, universal law (divine order) that most societies have not functioned perfectly throughout history. Nearly always, greed, power, lust and the aquisition of land and property have taken over.

Although it's true that the 10 commandments have influenced British law, I think it's an over statement to say they form a basis of law, when the majority of the commandments are irrelevant to the legal process.

OK I bow to your greater knowledge! I was only talking about the human 6 (sorry I should have said so) I was really talking from the standpoint of the spiritual understanding of the divine order, as in Henry Drummond’s The Greatest Thing in the World.

What is the greatest thing in the world? The answer is found in 1 Corinthians 13: LOVE.

From: THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD by Henry Drummond
…Peter says, "Above all things have fervent love among yourselves." Above all things. And John goes farther, "God is love." And you remember the profound remark which Paul makes elsewhere, "Love is the fulfilling of the law." Did you ever think what he meant by that? In those days men were working their passage to Heaven by keeping the Ten Commandments, and the hundred and ten other commandments which they had manufactured out of them. Christ said, I will show you a more simple way. If you do one thing, you will do these hundred and ten things, without ever thinking about them. If you love, you will unconsciously fulfil the whole law. And you can readily see for yourselves how that must be so. Take any of the commandments. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." If a man love God, you will not require to tell him that. Love is the fulfilling of that law. "Take not His name in vain." Would he ever dream of taking His name in vain if he loved Him? "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." Would he not be too glad to have one day in seven to dedicate more exclusively to the object of his affection? Love would fulfil all these laws regarding God. And so, if he loved Man, you would never think of telling him to honour his father and mother. He could not do anything else. It would be preposterous to tell him not to kill. You could only insult him if you suggested that he should not steal -.how could he steal from those he loved? It would be superfluous to beg him not to bear false witness against his neighbour. If he loved him it would be the last thing he would do. And you would never dream of urging him not to covet what his neighbours had. He would rather they possessed it than himself. In this way "Love is the fulfilling of the law." It is the rule for fulfilling all rules, the new commandment for keeping all the old commandments, Christ's one secret of the Christian life.

Hope I'm forgiven now! 😉

Love and peace,

Judy

Oh Myarka,

I should have realised you’d be down on me like a ton of bricks! :007: 😀

Oh Judy,

I hope hope I don't come across as Mr :mad:.

but Communism versus Democracy.

This one I find interesting, because living in a "Democracy" we assume communism is not democratic. Although amittedly, there are not very many democratic communist states. However, this is the argument.....

Which is better, a politcal system where the candidates are chosen by the party, i.e. faceless party members?

Or

A system where the candidates are voted for as individuals by the people that know them by their track record?

So which is more democratic, voting for a party or an individual?

Hope I'm forgiven now! 😉

Awe Judy, you don't need forgiveness from me, you debate in a friendly and supportive way, therefore it's always good to exchange views with you.

Myarka.