A fresh perspective on God please

Hi Alex,

Here's my take on things, which is just my perspective and something that I have experienced...

I think that it's a bit of a dance between the head and the heart for most people - like you, I sat on the fence for quite a long time, wanting that relationship with God, but not knowing how to find it within the religion I was brought up in. Which is very sad when you think about it.

I found it much easier once I was encouraged to consider the distinction between spirituality and religion and could begin to separate the two - ie see the possibility that a controlling State took advantage of an innate spirituality and imposed an organised nature to it, added a few controlling rules of their own, and called it religion. Seeing this gave me permission to explore my own spirituality and to develop my own relationship with God.

Previously, when asked if I believed in God, I would say 'I'd like to'. Now I just say 'yes'. It's a lovely feeling.

Alison

Hi All

Most of my life there has been a constant battle fought between logic and my heart over the existence of God and indeed Christanity being the religion that God wished us to follow.

My heart is screaming out to put 100% of my faith into Him but logic is a very powerful force within me and is never far from any thoughts I have about life and God in general.

people cannot be trusted because they understand how the human mind works and as evil as it is they know how to manipulate it therefore leading me to feel untrusting of things in a all round way I guess, we all know very well how psychology has been used through adverts on television right through to the company who design cleaning products with squeezing trigger action
I know that sounds like I've probably lost the plot but really it's just me over thinking, I do have a few marbles still intact, honestly! Lol.

I don't go to church because I'm afraid of putting my whole heart into something that I'm not totally sure of, the last thing I want to do is lie to people in church and more importantly myself although if I want to move forward then I need to engage in discussion and find new ways of thinking because it obvious that my way is self defeating in everyway.

I have felt what I think is Godly energy, coming out of a church on the few occasions that I've attended for christenings or weddings and felt lighter

I think it's goes back to the top of this post where I said some people can mislead someone and make it look so honest, I read in conspiracy magazines and in general chit chat that the church was started for power reasons, to create order amongst the masses, to stop people rebelling, people look for a sense of meaning and it could be said that due to that urge to find meaning we would throw ourselves into anything to stop that feeling of hopelessness (maybe not the right term).

I just want some help.

Love to all

Alex

You have answered all your questions. It is clear you need to throw yourself completely at the feet of God, so your heart knows it yet you keep going round and round because your head wants evidence. Let me tell you, there is no head smart enough to dive into love and heart connection. Your head is full of doubt simply because head is the seat of separation, yet your heart craves surrender and be filled with love of God...for only heart can find God/peace

Where are all these evil, clever people who are trying to manipulate you? Your own fears...keep you trembling inside.
I love Judy very dearly too. The reason is staring in your face. The energy of devotion is simply pleasing to the heart, as opposed to energy filled with I, Me, My, Mine.

You need to follow your heart and fall in love with Jesus, not by parts, but utterly, completely and madly. Give yourself permission...you have spent your life trying to get permission from others to surrender your heart.

You can forget about people supporting you to get started on heart madness. They can't. because they are all following their own heads to keep themselves safe, secure and fool-proof.
Love makes you vulnerable///and that's what you and people in general fear most. Society only supports stupidity it does not support madness. You are looking to enter madness of heart which is why you are frightened of it so much because logic will never understand it or approve it. You know too much for your own good and know that it keeps bringing more suffering.
Love will keep pulling att your strings, until you follow blindly...! Sounds scary but you will find that you are safer than ever... Problems are always complex, answers are simple beyond belief...Mind is complex. heart is pure simplicity
blessings

Hi Alex,

Hi All

Most of my life there has been a constant battle fought between logic and my heart over the existence of God and indeed Christanity being the religion that God wished us to follow.

Perhaps ask yourself the question... Who told you that Christianity was the religion that God wished us to follow? Is that something you discovered from within youself... or something you have learnt (been taught) by the church/parents/school etc? Why isn't Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism etc. the one that God wished you to follow? Is that simply because of the culture you were brought up in? or what you have found from your own knowledge of all the religions?

My heart is screaming out to put 100% of my faith into Him

Why? What is missing that needs you to be any different from who you are right here and now?

but logic is a very powerful force within me and is never far from any thoughts I have about life and God in general. An example of this is that I can easily find a common sense solution to my belief system which can answer questions but then old Mr Logic pops his head around the door and tells me that I should be careful about what I believe because we know all to well that some people cannot be trusted because they understand how the human mind works and as evil as it is they know how to manipulate it therefore leading me to feel untrusting of things in a all round way I guess,

The simplest name/model for this is what's called control dramas, as described in the book The Celestine Prophecy and it's following books. Though those books are not well written in a literary sense, they do provide a simple model to understand how people are different and how people use their control dramas to control others, not necessarily because they are wanting to be evil, or wanting to harm others, but because they want to find control within themselves, and much of what they do in order to gain control, is learnt behaviours and lack of awareness of what they and others are doing. Just lacking trust in others based on past experiences, is a control drama in itself, and ignores the present moment and what is needed right here and now; it puts you in a place where you become defensive of others even if they are trying to do the right thing... but that's something you can fix within yourself with learning to become more aware.

we all know very well how psychology has been used through adverts on television right through to the company who design cleaning products with squeezing trigger action that physically makes you want to keep squeezing the handle and using more product so that you run out of it faster and have to buy more, I know that sounds like I've probably lost the plot but really it's just me over thinking, I do have a few marbles still intact, honestly! Lol.

Hell yeah (scuse the expression on the Christianity forum hehe!), of course marketers and product producers know how to play people, that's all about economics (not just financial economics), and their intention isn't necessarily evil or designed to hurt people, but rather just to gain control (financially and otherwise) for themselves. How great their ego's must be from doing that... but how little happiness they actually have in their constant battle to maintain that ego.

I don't go to church because I'm afraid of putting my whole heart into something that I'm not totally sure of, the last thing I want to do is lie to people in church and more importantly myself although if I want to move forward then I need to engage in discussion and find new ways of thinking because it obvious that my way is self defeating in everyway.

I went to church a few times, the controlling nature was very obvious, not conspiracy theory... just observation. Even my partner who was brought up going to church (and why I went with her) could see that. It doesn't make us any 'less' people for not going to church (and I wouldn't now anyway, as I do not believe in God in the sense that the churches portray it)

I have felt what I think is Godly energy, coming out of a church on the few occasions that I've attended for christenings or weddings and felt lighter

Many of the older churches were built on old pagan sites, where lay lines met or crossed... powerful energy centres within nature. You can look that one up yourself to see the evidence (even on Time Team on tv, they show how churches developed on the old pagan sites), so yes there is definitely strong energy fluctuations around such sites.

or I've felt the energy that people sometimes channel into a post here on healthypages which feels unmistakable, If ever there was a true messenger of God then Principled would be a top 3 contender on here because she has a fantastic energy about her that I haven't felt before in anybody, there's something very different about Judy.

Yay, Judy is certainly an insitution here and a true messenger for Christian Science, such a lovely soul in herself. Many a wise word in what she shares and a good listening ear to what people say. Love her.

Even though I can feel and sense different energy my mind still resists. Why is that?? I think it's goes back to the top of this post where I said some people can mislead someone and make it look so honest, I read in conspiracy magazines and in general chit chat that the church was started for power reasons, to create order amongst the masses, to stop people rebelling,

Possibly true, but who knows for sure. Certainly, even if the churches weren't started for that reason, there has certainly been evidence that many churches have turned to using the religion in church with a sense of being in control of their followers. There's much evidence of that in history.

people look for a sense of meaning and it could be said that due to that urge to find meaning we would throw ourselves into anything to stop that feeling of hopelessness (maybe not the right term).

The issue I believe is that many look to 'others' to tell them the meaning, and fail to look within themselves where the knowledge really is already (even if they can't put it into words, and it's just a 'feeling'). By looking to others for the meaning, that means they're putting their 'faith' in others, and others will inevitably use that against them in their own control dramas, if it can be to their own advantage. Difficult to describe, as it makes it sound like you shouldn't trust anybody or put your faith in anyone, but that's not the case, it's more a case of being open to what others can share, and then actually putting that to the test for yourself, so that information can become knowledge, rather than just 'blind faith' that's it's true.

I hope you don't feel that I'm an atheist in sheeps clothing trying to make people come around to my way of thinking its just I haven't had the guts to throw this sort of conversation around because of how negative it can sound

Not at all... nothing negative about it. You're asking the questions that many people are pondering in their own lives.

and how it could offend devout Christians.

If they find offense, then they need to look within themselves and the teachings of Christianity to realise that what they are feeling needs to be turned around into Love. That's the true teaching of Christianity.... Judge not lest ye be judged and all that. 😉

I'm a good person deep down who is trying really hard to find closure or maybe a light, I'm not here to hurt anyone's feelings in anyway I just want some help.

No feelings hurt here. 🙂

Don't get too hung up on 'trying to find' anything, but rather aim to be more aware of what beauty and greatness is right here and now.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Alex

Don't apologise, that is a good well expressed post.

The way I see it is Heaven & Hell are just states of mind. Christians who think you will burn in hell and need saving is their mental problem and not yours.

I believe that science now sees that there is a part of the brain that has a spiritual response and need. So a need to believe in god/goddess/s or some other spiritual expression is a natural state of mind.

The problem with many an organised church organisation (regardless of type or faith) is that spirituality becomes politics, and thus they confuse the finger pointing at the moon as the moon (to use an old oriental story).

Also religious politics has been a controlling factor upon the masses for 1000's of years, and has systematically distorted and change scriptures for the benefit of the power classes. One of which is if you are not part of the church, there is something wrong with you. Well there is nothing wrong with you. You are being genuine to yourself and questioning what needs to be questioned. I call that intelligence. The Christian church doesn't have a monopoly on god :p

All systems at the end of the day are mentally constructed. It isn't a re-veal-ation from god, it's the subjective intepretation of cosmic forces by humans. Real-isation and one's own intepretation of the divine/cosmic consciousness is the important factor to one's spiritual growth, not whether Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or whatever is the holder of truth
.
Best wishes

RP

Hi Alex,

Your post here resonated deeply with me - I can really relate to the head-vs-heart thing. I had a very secular, non-religious (even non-spiritual) upbringing, but I always had a deep, intuitive feeling that there must be a God. I loved the religious education classes we had at primary school - essentially Christian, but non-denominational and non-theological, so there was never anything frightening or controlling pushed at us. So it just seemed natural for me to trust that there is a God who is good, who loves us and will always look after us if only we turn to Him - or Her. (It also seemed perfectly logical to my young mind that God, having made both women and men, must be just as much She as He!)

Anyway, as I got older, I grew a lot more sceptical; I won't bore you or anyone else with the details, as I'm sure many of us have been there. I suffered from depression throughout my teenage years, and I think I always knew, deep down, that I was searching for spiritual answers, but - like you, Alex - just didn't know who or what I could trust. I looked into lots of different faiths, especially in the Eastern traditions and the New Age movement, and found lots of inspiring ideas, but nothing I could ever say for certain was "it". I, too, had a heart that was crying out for something sure, something secure - but there was no way I could ever go with a teaching that didn't also satisfy my need for logic and consistency. I could not accept anything that fobbed off any probing questions with "you just have to have faith and believe". By the time I was 20, I had pretty much concluded that no-one could ever prove anything about God, or the divine, for certain. I believed (and still believe) that everyone has the right to seek the spiritual, or reject it, in whatever way they feel is most right. But no path ever felt quite right to me, and I knew I couldn't, on my conscience, commit myself to any faith or teaching if I couldn't be sure that what it taught was true. It was a very difficult and dark period in my life.

What changed everything for me - and I mean everything - was the book Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, by Mary Baker Eddy. If you've read some of the other discussions within the Christianity forum here, you'll probably have seen it mentioned there too. I admit that when someone gave it to me, my first reaction was to strongly consider throwing it out the window - I'd had enough books, and by that stage there was no way I wanted something purporting to be "Christian"! But I finally decided to just give it a go, from the start, with an open mind, and things just went from there.

Here's a link to the full text of the book online, if you or others would like to read any of it: The first chapter, "Prayer", is a beautiful one to read - it's certainly what made me want to read more.

I'll leave you with that for a moment and continue in a separate post...

(Continued...)

I guess what grabbed me from the start about Science and Health was that it did appeal, equally, to both my head and my heart. It was as if this was what I had always known about God, all along, without really knowing I knew it - a God who is both Mother and Father equally, who is all good, and who is not some big person in the sky who saves some people and sends others to hell (I never could believe any of that), but who is divine Love itself. Instead of urging me to reject all the other spiritual teachings I'd looked into, this helped me to see the truth that lies at the heart of all humanity's efforts to find holiness and wholeness and meaning.

But more than that, this book said straight out that "The time for thinkers has come", and that God "must be not merely believed, but... must be understood." This wasn't a teaching that asked people to blindly accept what they're told about God, but to prove it for themselves. I could also see from the start that this path didn't involve leaning on a person or an institution for answers, but on finding one's own individual relationship with God. Over the past 10 years, that is what has totally changed my life, and it's kept on doing so.

That' enough of me rambling, though, Alex, because this is really about your own search for God, and discovering your own relationship with God.

I love this promise in the Bible - one that was written in a specific era and place, but it stands for everyone, for all time:

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]I know the plans I have in mind for you, declares the Lord;
they are plans for peace, not disaster, to give you a future filled with hope.
When you call me and come and pray to me, I will listen to you.
When you search for me, yes, search for me with all your heart, you will find me.
I will be present for you, declares the Lord, and I will end your captivity....

That's true for you, too! :nature-smiley-008:

With love,
Charis

Hi Alex .

God is everything that you can envisage and believe God to be and also God is none of these .

x dazzle x

Dear Alex,

Well, what an overflowing stream of replies you've had, many coming from opposite places. Lots of food for thought for you 🙂

But don't spend too much time thinking. We don't only have 5 senses, we have our spiritual sense too and that is the one really legitimate and important one. Don't starve it.

At the moment you seem to me to be wanting (and needing) to go on a journey - a voyage of discovery, but you're standing on the shore with one foot on the land and the other in the boat... How much longer are you gong to stay there? :confused:

Be still and listen for the voice within. Let go and let God.

Love and peace,

Judy

PS Thank you (and Jnani and Giles) for your kind words. I would be horribly embarrassed except that none of the qualities you appreciate are from me - I simply try to be a transparency for God's truth and love to come through. And I certainly see those qualities in abundance reflected by others on these pages.

Hi Alex,

I was once as Principled said, 'with one foot on the land and the other in the boat'. I didn't know at the time where my 'roots were, if they were to stay with family, go with a church or go with my friends. I was in what others have called the void or the 'dark night of the soul' - and I had too many weighted problems to keep that boat afloat at the time. I had an inner feelings of always living on the edge, fearing that something or someone would push me over the edge.

Sometimes when we're in this space, we need the support and encouragement of others to get us out. It just happened, someone did help and steer me in the right direction. As I spoke of my anxieties and what "I" wanted in life, I was shown to see this questionning another way.

Instead of asking what "I wanted" the question was "How can I serve YOU" or What can I give YOU, the you referring to God.

I was told to ask this question with all my heart and soul and then pay attention and alert to what my intuition was telling me. I was also told to listen for answers everywhere - through people, through comments, books, events, dreams and intuition.

After doing this nothing seemd to happen (or so I thought)...though my dreams were more frequent and very colorful. I also felt my energy pulling back into myself and I was able to change some of my problems from heavy to light and from dark to bright.....I was feeling positive changes and able to forgive, let go and move on. I was also much healthier to take positive action to explore an unknown path or a new identity.

About 6 -8 months after questioning "How can I serve YOU", a friend invited to an event at a metaphysical center called The Source Within. (I had totally forgotten about my question by then) Ah, but It was a night of revelations. I met a healer named Alex Jones, who spoke openly to me about becoming a healer. That was back in 1995. In that year I took my Reiki I and II and took Reiki III two years later. I found how to serve HIM and help myself and humanity all at the same time. And I began working at The Source Within. 🙂

I could have during my waiting time taken anything that promised security especially when I was worried and over-stressed. But I didn't. In times of anxiety we all need Faith. We don't have to see this word in a religious sense but as 'faith in a higher order', of feeling a connection to our higher self and being able to live through the roadblocks and obstacles with the conviction our worries/problems can be overcome.

(Picture yourself as you were born, gradually moving through the ages until you come to the person you are now. Look at the effortless ease of the process...no frantic striving, no anxiety, no toil but rather a free flow of graceful movement from one stage to the next. Sense the wonder and miracle of creation, flowing freely out of the bounty of God...the deeper you go into the mystery of the never-ending flow of life, the deeper your trust will be in God.) 🙂

Wow what can I say guys I have a lot of food for thought all thanks to you all for being kind enough to spare me some of your time, it means a lot to me. I'm sorry Judy if I threw the spotlight on you almost if I were singling you out for being extra ordinary in spiritual ways more than anyone else on here, most of the people on here who take time to help others again and again have some wonderful strengths and amazing qualities but when I refered to you Judy it was only because you are the only devout christian who I know on healthypages or anywhere in face who comes with a very specific energy which is very different from many others, but its not meant to take anything away from everyone in this forum, there are some true giants on here fit for the leading cast in Lord of the rings, maybe what I mean to say is out of all the christian's who I have spoken with in my time you are the only person from a church who has shown me by way of energy that God is a real possibility its just typical that as soon as the energy exchanges have kind of taken place that my brain starts its usual process of computing it in such a way that even if I had a ring at the door and I answered it only to be the receiver of a swift one in the stomach from an arch angel that somehow I would still find a way of disbelieving it. My brain and I dont really get along at all, we are not in sync and never have been, probably never will be!

I took the liberty of downloading a book from the author Mary Baker Eddy entitled Science and health with key to the scriptures (free on ibooks) so I will start reading my way through it. I understand that its better to search from inside yourself because all the answers are in there but I'm full of self doubt even though if someone like my partner who very recently lost her mum brings about a conversation to do with God, the meaning and afterlife that I suddenly come into a world of my own reasurring her that just because we cant see him it doesn't mean that he doesn't exist and to be honest you probably wouldn't recognise me when I go on one, I suppose it shows me that I have or feel quite confident in the feelings I have inside but yet when I'm on my own zone that I will put big question marks on the whole thing. I wonder if I'm frightened of believing in God, its facing up to the truth that suddenly doesn't make life a joke anymore yet reality is such a strong force that is the perfect breeding ground for logic seeking scientists yet even more so for the average joe. My mind was blown wide open when I thought it would be cool to smoke dope, conversation flowed endlessly with like minded people and I suppose it unbolted me the anchor which kept me grounded and then off I went into space.

A friend of mine who is a del-boy type turned heavy going christian and someone who believes in God and the bible but not so much the people who run the church told me that years ago the spiritual part of our brains once ruled our heads but over time and due to the need for possesions and material items that it has now made it almost but impossible to envisage God. It makes sense to me in a way.

Anyway for the moment I have to go because I have to feed my little baby son and then I have to get my head down. I will come back again but for now I just want to thank everyone who took time to write and help me.

Thank you all so much and good night.

My mind was blown wide open when I thought it would be cool to smoke dope, conversation flowed endlessly with like minded people and I suppose it unbolted me the anchor which kept me grounded and then off I went into space.

Hi A_son_unique,

When I was in the sixth form, one of my tutors contacted my parents to express their concern that they though I might be taking drugs - I wasn't (and I still don't take drugs - and rarely even drink alcohol)! I honestly don't know why the thought that I was. I'm trying to think of a possible reason now, and the only thing I can dredge up as a possible reason is: I would take some time to look at the beautiful tree in the court yard... (is that weird?) - and vaguely remember one of the engineering-type students calling me a hippy :D.... Pretty funny. (apparently some people think you're slightly wacky if you express a fondness for dog's noses 😀 (Hi Giles;)))

Or maybe it was because, around that time I remember being in an art shop looking at the range of paints available, the woman behind the counter asked if she could help.... I said, "I'm just looking at the colours" - and by her reaction, well... let's say I thought she presumed that I was a drug-taking hippy too. I didn't bother me back then, but these days I find it insulting if anyone presumes such things.

I've never trailed the Guru/Spiritual Teacher circuit, and after a couple of incidents with people on here who could possibly fall into the Spiritual/Religious bracket, I am now firmly decided that I never will:).

I have vaguely heard of a few 'Guru's', possibly 60's/70's hippys who sit on stages and pontificate about the spiritual experiences had through taking LSD and all sorts of other crap (is Ram Das, the name of one in particular? not sure). The point I'm getting around to making is: anyone who links drug taking to spiritual achievement/experiences are, IMV, about as impressive as Lance Armstrong has turned out to be - not impressive at all, but cheaters. And I wouldn't waste 5 minutes of my time listening to anything they had to say. Where is the skill in popping a pill to improve either athletic or spiritual performance. Personally, I don't see any.

Hope you don't mind my chipping in with this, it's one of my pet peeves...

All the best 😉

apparently some people think you're slightly wacky if you express a fondness for dog's noses 😀 (Hi Giles;))

Now, did I say you were wacky? ... did I? 😉

:hug:

Now, did I say you were wacky? ... did I? 😉

:hug:

Now, did I say wacky was a 'bad' thing, imv;)

Hello again Alex,

I just wanted to say how pleased I am that you've done something so positive - downloading Science and Health. It is a unique and precious book. I remembered a poem from years ago describing someone's experience of studying it and did a search last night. I only remembered this bit, but there's a lot more if you click on the link:

[url]NEAR CATASTROPHE AVERTED*/*The Christian Science Journal[/url]

...I still have that old edition—drink-rings on the cover,
ash-burns on page 421, a back broken from being thrown in
disgust against a wall—water-waffled pages bringing memories
of steamy-summer beach days spent wondering why this
little book wouldn't let me go. How could it?
It had a mighty work to do,
a world to change,
a kingdom to unfold...

.

And then I found this, which is equally special, but in a gentler way:

[url]MY FIRST COPY OF THE TEXTBOOK*/*Christian Science Sentinel[/url]

I read again these pages,
thin and stained,
where tears of repentance fell;
and tears of joy
when all the vast uncharted labor of the years
found chart and compass
here.

Precious first book ... I learned to pray,
and found the gentle presence of the Christ
that took my unbelieving heart...
.

Of course, not quite the same with a Kindle etc, 😉 but I hope you have an experience similar to these writers above.

Love and peace,

Judy