I would like to open this up for discussion, not for a hanging!;)
I own two cats, foster a dog and work for an animal rescue charity. I love animals, have always had them in the home when growing up and now in my own home with my family. Recently however, I have had an unease as I look at the poor abandoned and abused animals that we receive on a daily basis or when I see even my own cat who has suddenly got sick and then is subjected to an overnight stay in the vet while he is subjected to hourly anal temperature monitoring, not to mention the blood tests and the IV drip in his paw rehydrating him. (Needless to say that on the final temperature taking, he got his own back and scratched the nurse a good'un! - poor nurse!). This is all well and good in that he felt ill and he was made better, while in the wild he would have died.
Plus your average well cared for pet does have a life of riley, constant supply of food and affection, but where do humans get off in their neverending desire to manipulate everything they touch? Of course domestic animals can't be left to their own devices now but doesn't anyone wonder why we think it is ok to put painful bits in the mouth of a horse, kicking it to make it go faster and pulling on the bit to slow it down, when we don't actually need to use horses for transport anymore (and who said it was right in the first place)? Insisting that dogs are taken out of their own pack environment and forced to lead a life where they worry each time their owner goes out and so lie down to sleep albeit restlessly. Where cats are castrated and neutered (completely agree with it because it is very definitely necessary but I am talking about from a wild instinctual animal's viewpoint) and in a castrated tom cats case, faced with another more aggressive testosterone filled cat in their own garden who hasn't been castrated.
Thankfully people are becoming more aware and responsible ownership is (generally) being enforced.. I just wonder if perhaps we should have kept our beaks (pardon the pun) out in the first place!
I could go on and on to cover all bases but will admit that I have probably written enough. ;).
A confused animal owner.
A lot of related issues in there!
Domestic animals have had tens of thousands of years close association and symbiosis with humans. Their recent evolution has taken place within environments of which we are an important feature and vice-versa. The life to which we, and they, have adapted is where cats control vermin and keep small predators away, dogs provide protection and help us hunt. In return, they get shelter, a regulated environment and protection too, and have become quite different from their wild cousins.
The benefits to cats may be greater than to us, they are very good at playing on our emotional responses to make strong demands that are not easy to refuse - they are quite merciless taskmasters in fact. If they are not a good mouser, the occasional purr may be our only reward. Other beasts, such as cattle, however, may be far less advantaged by these associations, so the benefits are not by any means equal.
But without this mutual connection, many domestic animals would be deprived, and so would we. Whether the kind of modern environment we have created, or recent selective breading, are truly wholesome for either us or them, are matters of reasonable doubt.
As to the vets, I'm not convinvced of the benefits of modern veterinary medicine, but that's too complex to answer quickly here. All I will say is that if the choice is between trying to save a pet's life against doing nothing I will always err on the side of the former, as long as they are hanging in there then I think so should we.
Hi,
I'm dog owner and former horse, but still rider.
I can understand your question. I remember having a discussion with a dog trainer. She knew that without her care none of her animals would be able to survive in the wild - dogs have lost their natural survival instinct. It survives in small ways, but not enough to keep them alive. A dog will bond to any pack....my family are his pack. He trusts us just as he would a pack of dogs to whom he had bonded.
Abuse is another issue....when humans treat dogs as humans and not as a dog that is abusive. It is putting an animal in an unnatural environment. Expecting them to adhere to human rules, which they don't understand, and then punishing them for not following those rules is abuse. We are a pack - no manipulation, simply pack rules. We gain from his companionship and he gains from our pack attention.
As for horses - by teaching a horse to go in a bit and to use its body more efficiently we are actually creating a much fitter and healthier animal. If someone thinks that riding is pulling on a bit and kicking then they are not riding simply acting like a sack of potatoes on the horses back. I wouldn't expect a horse to put up with that. Also if you use a painful bit you will simply end up on the floor...inducing pain does not control a horse. It is communication - the type that we do every day with those around us - at work and at home. Yes we ride because we enjoy it, but as a result a horse becomes fitter and has a less stressful life.
ANimals have a long and very successful history of bonding with humans. Our behaviour and theirs has adapted to maintain that closeness.
Those who wish to manipulate will do so whether it is with animal, child or adult. Animals respond to bonding and communication. They teach us a great deal about love, forgiveness, patience.
I believe we keep animals around us because they make us better humans.
Love and light,
Christina
Thank you both for your interesting replies.. I have sparked this subject up around the office this morning and both the Animal Rescue Officer and Animal Collections Officer had the opinions that animals definitely benefit (in the main) from our co-existence alongside one another. We then broached fox hunting, horse-racing and eating veal.. and needless to say the discussion became heated for various reasons! When looking at my cat Seamus lying on my bed lazily licking his paw as he cleans his face, I have no doubt where he would prefer to be. It's not so much that I doubt the mutual benefit that we receive, I think it's just I wish we could still co-exist in that idealistic world which doesn't exist. I guess that it is just part of my psyche which still can't accept, and struggles with, some of the elements of the human character.
Re the horses, it was watching my daughter having her second riding lesson which made me wish that horses could just be allowed to 'be'. The riding instructor wasn't abusing the horses, just disciplined and I guess teaching 6 years old to ride when they aren't able to control the horse via subtle changes in their own posture is difficult. But I just felt so sorry for these beautiful creatures to be at the mercy of us humans day in and day out. Of course they get well looked after and fed etc but would they not prefer just to be horses running wild.
I know I am being unrealistic and having packs of now-domesticated horses running all over the A27 isn't going to work!! I just feel saddened by it all sometimes.
And may I add that I completely agree with you both - without this mutual connection, we would certainly be deprived. Humans though, I would have thought, more so. I am often comforted by the mere prescence of animals - I have two lying next to me in the office as I type (although one appears to have slid off of his bed)....and there is nothing better than cuddling up with Max on the bed and being headbutted by Seamus when I have a bath...
Well, I think I'm helping the cat, when I realise it's being very demanding and sometimes I wonder why I fall for it! Perhaps the horse has the same mixture of thoughts about taking care of the poor human who needs to be carried?!
Aha!! Fantastic point! It is the rider that has been manipulated by the horse! There you go, I am feeling better already 😉
Hi delighted, good topic.
I used to go horse riding years ago and can honestly say from my experience that horses are so strong willed I don't think they could forced to do anything they didn't want to, although saying that, it is a double edged swored, I did nearly get thrown onto a car by one and another and my friends cheeky horse dragged my leg along a barbed wire fence, it sure new what it was doing, obviously wasn't too keen on me and there was no crop I might add, just a walk around the paddock! they deffo have a mind of their own! very clever animals and whenever I see one I'm in absolute awe of of them! Also horses are normally kept in their paddock so they do get to run around and kick out. Although horse racing, I agree with you, its difficult to decide whether its right or wrong. Shame we can't all be Dr Dolittle and ask them!
I also have to cats, my boys, Charlie & Ninja are brothers, we have such a strong bond. When I go outside they sit waiting for me to get my wellies on and we all go for our walk together down the bottom of the garden, or in cat terms, we all go a hunting down the garden! bizarre to imagine! I believe they simply accept you as their leader and seem very happy to. Its funny to watch, we have play time when I go and lock our chickens up for the night then Ninja runs up the tree meowing madly at me! and oddly for cats, they know what the word NO means, Iv'e never forced this with them, its just been so natural, I wouldn't be without my boys.
One thing I do find sad is to see birds in cages, I went to my local garden centre today and god they're so beautiful, why do people feel the need to cage a bird??
Sorry to babble x
Not at all Clarice (by the way loved the pictures of the badgers that come to your door!). We had a 6 month old budgie brought in on Friday - needless to say it had been named 'Mummy's Baby'.. hmmm. It was such a gorgeous bird but I felt so distressed looking at this poor bird, unable to fly freely, that I suggested letting it out - ok the suggestion was made in jest - but honestly!
I realise that often humans make the mistake of supposing animals feel the same emotions as we do but it did seem appalling that we can even think it is ok to cage an animal that should be able to run freely. Hamsters, gerbils, rats.. the list is endless. Yes they get fed, yes they are safe from predators, but for an animal that doesn't have the same capacity as us to 'think', surely the chance to fulfil it's instinctual behaviour even at the risk of getting eaten, is better than scratching to escape ad infinitum (well.. to death).
Watching the fish in the aquarium we visited yesterday, swimming back and forth in front of the people watching them.. it just pains me to think that their instincts are screaming to be acknowleged but are muted by our unnecessary needs and wants. For a species apparently so advanced, it amazes me that we are so backward.
Its a difficult one. I have two dogs and have had cats and dogs in the past (and wouldn't be without one or the other now). All my animals are well cared-for, apart from my last but one dog who had (it turned out) advanced cancer. I was badly advised by the vet (self-interest I think) and she died a lingering death, poor lass. It won't happen ever again with any of my animals, thats for sure.
Domestic animals being domesticated gets my vote (as long as they are cared for properly).
Rats in the wild tend not to roam very far and are probably quite happy caged as long as they are fed and warm. A bit like some "free-range" chickens who are happier huddled in a corner than outside running around. They're bred like that BTW.
Some fish are OK swimming around in a tank. Others - mackerel for example, which roam thousands of miles over a season, clearly are not, and I have seen evidence of mutation within a single mackerel life-span because the fish were in an aquarium.
Wild foxes brought back to health after injury or illnes and then released to the wild (and in all probability shot within a week)? This is the reality of what happens now where I live.
Cruel or not?
Talk to farmers who have problems with foxes stealing chickens. The truly wild foxes tend to give easy targets a wide berth (cunning - see?).
The poor old towny fox, or one which has been in close promimity with humans) isn't quite so cunning and is more likely to go for the easy meal - and get shot.
In that context is it really fair to put a wild/semi-wild animal through the distress of treatment or surgery?
The same with mange.
Huge questions for which there is no easy one-line answer.
David:)
Also if you use a painful bit you will simply end up on the floor...inducing pain does not control a horse. It is communication - the type that we do every day with those around us - at work and at home. Yes we ride because we enjoy it, but as a result a horse becomes fitter and has a less stressful life.
Hmmm. I don't agree with you 🙂 Some horses will put up with some truly terrible things we do to them, and go into themselves - think about the "broken spirit" meaning of the old fashioned term breaking in.
As for a horse being fitter and less stressed... I'm not convinced on that either. Horses in the wild are fit for purpose - they are simply predated if not. Our domesticated horses are as fit as we choose to make them, and can certainly be highly stressed - they still have their natural instincts, yet we cage them, limit their freedom and train them - just how stressful is that for a wild animal? They have been domesticated for a truly short time in the history of creation.
On the other hand if left wild man would surely take over horse's natural environment, hunt them to extinction and we would lose all the benefits we know there are to having a human/horse relationship. At the very least horse would not have pain relief if he hurt his foot in the wild, and would suffer a longer period of abandonment, fear, pain etc until he was predated. Then again he wouldn't experience the worst of cushings, or arthritis, or lack of dentition, because he simply would not survive that long.
Its something I hate thinking about, for this very reason; there is no easy answer. The compromise for me is to try to provide them as natural as possible domesticated lifestyle, whilst still doing the things like riding them which we expect in the relationship.
Its why I can't get people who put down or send for meat their "beloved competition pony" when he is no longer competition sound, but could be field-sound. To me a horse is an animal to have a unique and special relationship with - not just a tool to ride.
aaaaaaahh that felt better 😮 😀 *
Meerkats
I came across this story yesterday - I think actually in the newspaper, which was in the reception area of the dealership where I was getting my car MOTd, but easily found on a google search:
Bottom lines are that meerkats are pack animals and don't thrive when kept as solitary animals, and that they're hard wired to dig - constantly - and so are quite unsuitable for domestication.
Holistic
Very interesting thread. 🙂
We are 'owned' by cats, obviously we have ultimate control on their food (well the buying it bit) and that's where it ends, if it ain't to their liking - it has to be replaced PRONTO :rollaugh:
I couldn't image my life without cats, so for me personally domesticating them was a very good idea.
We do keep a lot of pet
from cats, to dog, pigs [hogs] till to chicken..
cats are quiet burden while hogs and chicken are a good profit..
Dogs can be in the middle of it. They can be a burden or a profit