The Theosophical Society: Vegetarianism and Spirituality

Haven't had a chance to watch the whole video yet.

What I've heard the speaker say so far chimes in with my way of thinking, so I'm looking forward to watching the whole thing before too long.

Thanks, Trin 🙂

Yes, Theosophy has - at least in the past - been pretty to the fore in promoting vegetarianism in the West. Some were simultaneously very active Theosophists, and also vegetarian activists [also activists for other causes such as Indian independence]. I know that's true at least from the very early 1900s ... don't TBH know about the late 19th century though. 😮

V

:wave:Hello & thank you Trin.
Never heard of the Theosophical Society before but I liked this.
She says...all of the suffering of the animals is a karmic record held against humanity(29:18)... true, I think...and what a huge record ..:041:

:nature-smiley-008:

Kind regards.

I'll have to watch this video, its title interests me.

I wonder whether anyone knows whether HPB was vegetarian? I'm inclined to doubt this, I know she smoked a lot.
The ethic of vegetarianism can be approached from various angles, and one of them is perhaps that of the 'love of all life' and life as being sacred, though divisions have to be imposed to differentiate between levels of evolution in the vegetable and animal kingdoms... For example - in the minds of some - it is acceptable to eat carrots and potatoes - while unacceptable to eat the flesh of cows, pigs and sheep. In such there is a marked division – that vegetables are of a lower order of evolution and that animals are of a higher order… While this is actually true; it doesn’t automatically assert that vegetables don’t feel pain or experience feelings…
It can be taken for granted by some that where animals feel emotions of fear, horror and terror (immediately prior to their demise) – these vibrations become ‘locked’ in their flesh. Later on, someone cuts up their flesh and it is sold to others who then cook and eat it. Some people then believe that these ‘vibrations’ are consumed within the eaters and thus they ‘take on’ these vibrations. The latter then become mixed with the person’s own subtle vibrations and the end result is assumed to be undesirable.
Speaking as one that doesn’t eat meat or poultry products, but still eats fish along with an array of vegetables, I can’t define what the ‘actual truth’ is in this matter; I gave up meat some 18 years ago – but maybe that’s not long enough to perceive whether or not it has made any difference to ‘me’… Although – maybe it wouldn’t be ‘me’ that would be able to realise any changes – perhaps it could only be others around me.
CW.Leadbeater wrote that he believed that subtle nature spirits would stay some distance from anyone that ate the flesh of animals – because they could sense the ‘lower vibrations’ (or words to that effect). Yet, generally speaking, unless the Soul is especially evolved; nature spirits would keep a distance anyway.
I think vegetarianism is a matter of personal decision and the reasons why one foregoes the flesh of animals is again a personal one; probably different for every individual. It’s a matter of what ‘feels right’.

In light

Apollo.

I'm not a vegetarian (i did try but found that I really don't like vegetables that much!!!) I do believe in the Native American tradition whereby the animal gets to lead a happy natural life and when the time comes it's death is brought about as quickly as possible to limit it's suffering. After death an offering is made and thanks given to the animal who gave it's life so that you could live yours. Sadly in our 'farming' society animals are rarely given a natural life and are certainly not respected, and this is a problem that I'm trying to find resolution for on a personal level. As Native Americans are one of the most spiritual peoples throughout the world I find it difficult to believe that vegetarianism allows a clearer path to spirituality. Are animals a higher life form than plants? Again, I do not believe this... it's just that plants/vegetation work on a different level to animals. Sadly it seems to be that humans in particular tend to believe that anything that doesn't work in the same way as us is of lower or zero intelligence... The Earth herself appears to be making us pay for that oversight (earthquakes, floods etc).

Hello Apollo,

I wonder whether anyone knows whether HPB was vegetarian? I'm inclined to doubt this, I know she smoked a lot.

Interesting question and I'll try to find out. From my Theosophical readings etc., I don't off-hand recall any comment by HPB on the subject. But then she had enough new concepts to introduce, and for most of her writings she was more of an amenuensis for the Mahatmas.

She was born into Russia, spent time in a circus, was actively in the cavalry at warfare, and later but while still young took more than one trip to Tibet - quite a feat for any single woman at the time. It would seem obvious that she wasn't therefore raised as a vegetarian, and probably couldn't be one while at war or on long and difficult travels. I'd imagine that once meeting and living with the Mahatmas, her Masters, she adopted their vegetarian ways at least whilst with them.

But as you may know, individuals and entire societies differ upon whether Theosophy is valid or is not after her. To me, after her passing Theosophy was still very much valid, and it's in this period that vegetarianism came to the fore in the Society.

Anyway, I'll see if I can find out anything on HPB. 🙂

Hi Unicorndeva. I'm taking my call from the specific thread title which is not about vegetarianism in general but also Theosophy. In Theosophy, it is considered that animals are a higher life-form than plants, and also that some sort of karma accrues from the killing of any animal, no matter how it's done. Theosophical vegetarians most certainly cared for animals, but a large part of their reason for being veggies was their belief that the consumption of meat 'lowers your vibration' and is inhibiting upon the spiritual Path. (There's a good and whole thread on these forums about vegetarianism in relation to spirituality which expressed many differing views and became quite long and deep.)

V

A google search on 'Blavatsky' with 'vegetarianism' brings up enough:

Some things from the net on HP Blavatsky and vegetarianism:

From ‘The Theosophist’, 1883:

“The exposition of "Occultism" in these columns has been clear enough to show that it is the Science by the study and practice of which the student can become a MAHATMA. The articles "The Elixir of Life" and the Hints on Esoteric Theosophy are clear enough on this point. They also explain scientifically the necessity of being a vegetarian for the purposes of psychic [then meaning ‘spiritual’ – Venetian] development. Read and study, and you will find why Vegetarianism, Celibacy, and especially total abstinence from wine and spirituous drink are strictly necessary for "the development of Occult knowledge"--see "Hints on Esoteric Theosophy," No. 2.”

From her “The Key To Theosophy:

[In The Key to Theosophy, H.P. Blavatsky [HPB] was asked about Theosophy "Is it obligatory for members of the Theosophical Society to adhere to vegetarianism"? Her response was:] "The truth is that our rules require nothing of the kind, however, earnest students and active workers in The Theosophical Society, wish to do more than study theoretically. The wish to know the truth by their own direct personal experience. The first thing which the members learn is a true conception of the relation of the body, or physical sheaths, to the inner, the true man. The relation and mutual interaction between these two aspects of human nature are explained and demonstrated to them." HPB goes on to say: "One of the great German scientists has shown that every kind of animal tissue, however you may cook it, still retains certain marked characteristics of the animal which it belonged to, which characteristics can be recognised. And apart from that, everyone knows from the taste what meat he is eating. We go a step further, and prove that when the flesh of animals is assimilated by man as food, it imparts to him, physiologically, some of the characteristics of the animal it came from. Moreover, occult science teaches and proves this to its students by ocular demonstration, showing also that this 'coarsening' or 'animalising' effect on man is greatest from the flesh of larger animals, less from birds, still less from fish and other cold-blooded animals, and least of all when he eats vegetables only. As the matter stands, he (man) must eat to live, and so we advise really earnest students to eat such food as will least clog and weigh their brains and bodies, and will have the smallest effect in hampering and retarding the development of their intuition, their inner faculties and powers."

William Q. Judge, such a close co-worker with Blavatsky, disagreed (IMHO out of ignorance). He said that he tried vegetarianism for nine years and it didn’t work for him. He somewhat denigrates veggies, but a bit more calmly then goes on to say: “The other branch of the subject is that regarding spiritual development and vegetarianism. It has been so often dealt with it is sufficient to say that such development has nothing to do with either meat-eating or the diet of vegetables. He who gives up meat-eating but does not alter his nature and thoughts, thinking to gain in spirituality, may flatter himself and perhaps make a fetish of his denial, but will certainly thereby make no spiritual progress.” That was in an early question, in the 1800s, “What is the opinion of the leaders of the Theosophical Society on vegetarianism?”

The present-day Theosophist, Katinka Hesselink, writes:

“Keeping my intent of discussing the controversial in this newsletter, this time two opinions on the place of vegetarianism come to the fore. W.Q. Judge defends eating meat and Idarmis Rodriguez explains the reason for vegetarianism. Personally I am a vegetarian, but I am often appalled at the way in which some vegetarians and vegans seem to think no meat eater could be seriously on the spiritual path. Idarmis Rodriguez quotes H.P. Blavatsky and in all fairness it should be noted that the latter was not a vegetarian. As for the article by W.Q. Judge, it should be noted that the book quoted contains articles written between 1889 and 1896. Therefore the opinions of doctors as given there, is no longer up to date.”

------------------

TBH I think that in HPB’s days, and in the very early days of Theosophy, they had enough ‘on their plate’ in forming the Society, the idea of vegetarianism was very new to the West, and they hadn’t begun to much yet tackle the issue. For Theosophy, that began in the early 1900s when HPB was already passed on.

Venetian

It can be taken for granted by some that where animals feel emotions of fear, horror and terror (immediately prior to their demise) – these vibrations become ‘locked’ in their flesh. Later on, someone cuts up their flesh and it is sold to others who then cook and eat it. Some people then believe that these ‘vibrations’ are consumed within the eaters and thus they ‘take on’ these vibrations. The latter then become mixed with the person’s own subtle vibrations and the end result is assumed to be undesirable.

Yep. That's one of the reasons I don't eat animals.

I link it to stories I've read which are not urban myths I'm pretty sure, about perfectly normal people having blood transfusions, and suddenly becoming murderous. Somehow, the blood being traced back, it came from violent offenders. You are indeed what you eat or take inside. Or you get effected by it.

V

For example - in the minds of some - it is acceptable to eat carrots and potatoes - while unacceptable to eat the flesh of cows, pigs and sheep. In such there is a marked division – that vegetables are of a lower order of evolution and that animals are of a higher order… While this is actually true; it doesn’t automatically assert that vegetables don’t feel pain or experience feelings…

It's interesting what you are saying, Apollo, about whether plants/vegetables actually feel pain. Just because they don't have a nervous system like that of different classes of living beings, i.e. human/non-human animals, does not mean that they do not suffer. It is a difficult matter to reconcile ethically, and I guess fruitarians would have the moral high-ground over me, a lowly vegan, as they are not killing the plant itself but just consuming what has been 'dropped' by the plant or what they have picked. I've often thought that fruitarianism could be the next step for me.

It can be taken for granted by some that where animals feel emotions of fear, horror and terror (immediately prior to their demise) – these vibrations become ‘locked’ in their flesh. Later on, someone cuts up their flesh and it is sold to others who then cook and eat it. Some people then believe that these ‘vibrations’ are consumed within the eaters and thus they ‘take on’ these vibrations. The latter then become mixed with the person’s own subtle vibrations and the end result is assumed to be undesirable.

I, personally, do take it for granted that non-human animals feel emotions. I have shared my life with comapanion animals and my experience of living with them leads me to believe that they experience emotions as we do. The only marked difference that I am aware of between human and non-human animals is that we have a highly developed pre-frontal cortex in the brain that allows us to reason, to rationalise and think logically, hence the way we have developed/evloved. Even if I cannot prove that non-human animals have emotions, I would rather work on the assumption that they do so as not to cause suffering.

The reason I called myself Vegan Soul on HP forum was to express the fact that I do not want my 'soul'... (not sure I believe the concept of a soul anymore through my studies of Buddhism... perhaps I should say karmic imprint) ...to become a graveyard for the 'souls' of other living beings. It may be the case that the plants/vegetables I eat are doing just that so I may have to become fruitarian. Perhaps I should change my name to 'Fruitarian Karmic Imprint' in the future, lol! 😀

I think vegetarianism is a matter of personal decision and the reasons why one foregoes the flesh of animals is again a personal one; probably different for every individual. It’s a matter of what ‘feels right’.

I try not to judge others on their own individual ethics... I have failed spectacularly in the past to my shame... as I do truely believe that everyone has their own path to follow in this lifetime. I hope, with my own beliefs, that people may change their ethics in future lifetimes. There is always a chance!

take care,
Lisa x

She was born into Russia, spent time in a circus, V

I know someone that might contest this 😉 - HPB was actually born in Dnipropetrovosk in central Ukraine. At 17 she married a rich man and (shortly later divorced him I believe) - this is what gave her her funds to travel... The circus - I also have reason to believe otherwise...

🙂
A.

Ah, well that's another example then of how, years ago, many of us would just call and confuse "Russia" with the old USSR. 😮 I'd never wondered much about how she financed travel. From the divorce? I knew of the marriage, but vaguely thought she'd just walked out.

Well, even Theosophists don't know too much about her early years. Nobody did then. An interesting life indeed.

V

She didn't divorce (after consultation with someone that knows..) - you're right - she just walked out of the relationship - but kept his name - Blavatsky.

Incedentaly - have you heard of a book called The Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky Collected & edited by Daniel H. Caldwell

On Amazon:

Here is the actual book (including the REAL biographical details >> Chapter 2...)

It's apparently an amazing book to read; I am reliably informed...

A.

I'm glad you reminded me about that book, Apollo. I did get notification of it, but then forgot. Forgot because I heard through the yahoo group Caldwell is on, about Blavatsky-oriented Theosophy. Unlike most forums, there's almost no discussion there, but lots of notices of new books or in fact mostly about new information on Theosophy placed online. So I tend to not remember all that comes through that.

But Caldwell is great - a super chronicler of how Theosophy really began, source documents, who the supposedly so ubiquitous Masters really are - or were then - etc. So it'll be a great book I'm sure.

V