It seems that judgement is frowned upon in certain spiritual fields - notably in the new age movement. It is seen as being in duality and not of the "all is one" and unconditional love vibe.
Whilst I think it is admirable if someone is really on that higher vibe, my experience of those who say they are is just not borne out in reality. They may be in that space fleetingly but show their true colours sooner or later.
I have no problem with judgement and being in duality. I am a realist. Those who say they never judge are, to me, in denial.
To have an opinion is to judge!
Also there is a difference between having judgement and being judgemental. You can have discernment without condemnation.
Over to you - what are your thoughts (ha...dare I say opinions?) on this?
We have to make judgements all the time - what to cook for dinner, when to cross the road.
I try hard not to pre-judge. That is, not to decide on something without all the facts. Pre-judging is, after all, prejudice.
Duality is part of being human. I don't see much point in being "on a higher vibe" (not really sure what that means - different things to different people, I guess), when much learning here depends on being human.
Thanks for your post Crowan - very welcome. Yes I am open minded and try to gauge a situation, i.e. not prejudge either. I am sometimes badgered on a spiritual chat site because I am quite opinionated but that goes hand in hand with having certain values. I like to think I am understanding and try and see the bigger picture but, unlike some wishy washy new agers, I am NOT scared of calling a spade a spade! (There are those on that same chat site who love me for this - my honesty).
Hi Amy
To my understanding, there is a difference between having an opinion on something and judging something, let us take Marmite, I tried it, I did not like the way it tastes so I choose not to eat it, so my opinion on Marmite is that I personally do not like it, there is no judgment in that, just an opinion.
Now if I was to say that I think that Marmite is bad and other people should not eat it, then I have moved from having a personal opinion that I do not like the taste of Marmite into having a judgment about Marmite.
I am also a realist who understands that I have yet to encounter someone who has a problem that does not have a judgment at the heart of it; as a realist I fully understand that judgments are necessary to create disharmony, stress and suffering; I do not judge judgments to be good or bad, I just acknowledge what they are and the effects they have upon our general state of health and wellbeing.
Hi Crowan
A choice in itself is not a judgment, it is a choice, so if you decide that you are going to have lentils for dinner, that is a choice, unless you judge all other types of food to be bad and lentils to be good, then it is a choice that is being influenced by an underlying judgment, though you still have a choice.
A bit like the Marmite above, I choose not to eat it, but I do not judge it to be good or bad, if that was all I could find to eat, then I would happily eat it.
*gasps* What kind of person are you that does not like Marmite?!
Paul - using food as your example is not a good one for what I am talking about here. I am sure you have opinions about people and this is a judgement.
I thought the food analogy was excellent 🙂
I thought the food analogy was excellent 🙂
Food is about tastes i.e. physical reactions. Opinions about people are more what I had in mind when starting this thread.
But an analogy is not intended to be taken literally, surely?
Hi Amy
If I observe someone who is upset and sad, then my observation is simply that they are experiencing disharmony within self, this does not require me to create a judgmental opinion of them for being sad, it is simply an acknowledgement of what is.
This is how we are with people, we simply deal with what is in an open and non-judgmental way, we do not have to judge self or anyone else unless we choose to do so. 🙂
Indeed we do not have to judge self or others, however, what I am saying is that it is the norm and somewhat inevitable in real life i.e. not in the ideal world. That said, discernment is like a half way house - seeing what is there without coming to a value judgement.
Well, I wasn't planning on making any long posts today... but as you've started such a discussion, I can't help myself... 😀
Whilst I can understand your question and I know where you're coming from, in a general sense I would agree with what you're saying, but then let's look at it more closely...
It seems that judgement is frowned upon in certain spiritual fields - notably in the new age movement. It is seen as being in duality and not of the "all is one" and unconditional love vibe.
I'm sure you didn't intend to put it this way, but if someone is "frowning upon" someone else for being judgemental, then they are themselves being judgemental. 😉
Whilst I think it is admirable if someone is really on that higher vibe, my experience of those who say they are is just not borne out in reality. They may be in that space fleetingly but show their true colours sooner or later.
What do we mean by "true colours" though? To me, a persons real "true colours" are when they are in the state of complete awareness and without judgement. The "true colours" you seem to be referring to are when the real true colours are masked by personalities created in the mind, so it's not really the true person you are seeing, but an act of their personality (note: "Personality" comes from the latin "Persona" meaning "mask").
Of course, I agree with you that it's rare to find anyone who can effortlessley maintain a state of non-judgemental awareness, and for many people they switch between awareness and personality frequently. The people who aim to be non-judgemental are those who actively aim to become more aware of their true nature and let go of the (attachments to) personalities masking this; the personalities that are created by activity in the discursive mind. A true practitioner (for want of a better word) of awareness will, of course, have lapses from awareness due to life influencing them, though I doubt many of those who actively practice this would go around judging others for being judgemental, as they should understand the principles of awareness and judgement and simply share their knowledge with those who also seek greater awareness; certainly not tell them they are wrong for being caught up in the dualistic mind as everyone gets. If they are frowning, or judging them for it then they are not practicing what they preach (not that they should preach; you know what I mean 😉 )
I have no problem with judgement and being in duality. I am a realist. Those who say they never judge are, to me, in denial.
Absolutely. Such people truly without judgement would be very rare indeed.
I think we also need to consider how much people are outwardly judgemental or inwardly judgemental. I've met with many Buddhists who, outwardly, we can say they are rarely judgemental at all, and this is because of their practice of being free of attachment and judgement. Inwardly, I'm sure many of them will have judgement to some level, though their teachings and practice will allow them to recognise when they do this and bring themselves back to awareness, a bit like practicing meditation, returning to the focus of the meditation when it's recognised the awareness is wandering with the mind.
You seem to suggest that people seeking greater awareness and lack of duality in their lives are not realists? I would differ in this opinion; from my understanding, such people are seeking the reality of the present moment, greater awareness and lack of dualistic conflict, and that's something that's very real.
To have an opinion is to judge!
Also there is a difference between having judgement and being judgemental. You can have discernment without condemnation
And this is where it comes down to the limitations and ambiguity of the words we use.
'true judgement' is what I would say is the same as true discernment (and I would just use the word discernment to differentiate it from the confusion of 'judgement'). This is something that is needed in our daily lives to exist.
'false judgement' (as you say 'being judgemental') is the 'frowned upon' judgement, but that is recognised by anyone, not just those practicing non-judgement/awareness/being present etc.
I would try and explain it like:
True judgement/discernment is the recognition of 'different' things required to meet a need that will not create conflict or harm any other thing, and is not at the expense of anyone or anything else. Discerning the colour of the sky, or the gender of a person so that you can address them accordingly, would be such examples.
False judgement is to seperate two things at the expense of something or someone else, not to meet a need that creates no conflict or harm, but to meet a perceived need that only benefits/or harms some. For example, judging that someone with money is a better person than others, or someone who is male is better than someone who is female, is a false judgement. From these things, conflicts can, and often do arise.
Enough from me now... 😉
All Love and Reiki Hugs
I think that as humans we are making judgments all the time, about people, food, drink, clothes, etc.
I'm sure you didn't intend to put it this way, but if someone is "frowning upon" someone else for being judgemental, then they are themselves being judgemental. 😉
Yes I did mean to put it this way since this is how I experience their reaction to my judging something/someone. It's ironic isn't it!?
What do we mean by "true colours" though? To me, a persons real "true colours" are when they are in the state of complete awareness and without judgement. The "true colours" you seem to be referring to are when the real true colours are masked by personalities created in the mind, so it's not really the true person you are seeing, but an act of their personality (note: "Personality" comes from the latin "Persona" meaning "mask").
By this I mean that they descend from the love and light vibe and reveal a much more realistic/earthly/truer side to themselves when they condemn me. The vibe changes to being negative and patronising. It feels like they have been wearing a mask or presenting a persona, as you say here.
You seem to suggest that people seeking greater awareness and lack of duality in their lives are not realists? I would differ in this opinion; from my understanding, such people are seeking the reality of the present moment, greater awareness and lack of dualistic conflict, and that's something that's very real.
Well, as a realist, I see that we are here on earth with our egos. Our egos create separation and hence we are more likely to perceive dualistically than if we had mastered the ego and become spiritualised. We are in 3d not 5d (where it is possible to maintain unconditional love). I have good awareness but perhaps my judging is due to a reflection of my morals. I can't seem to help it. I can see the potential/the good in most but I seem fairly quick to disapprove of those having a high regard for materialistic values and not delving deep into their being. I recognise that we all live our lives according to our values but the greed for materialism is at the heart of what is wrong with so much in our society.
'false judgement' (as you say 'being judgemental') is the 'frowned upon' judgement, but that is recognised by anyone, not just those practicing non-judgement/awareness/being present etc.
Yes, value judgements are often criticised but more so in new age circles. Perhaps I should have addressed this thread on value judgements (not judgements).
What you say about non attachment and judgement was very interesting. Perhaps I am too attached to my morals.
I thank you for taking the time to post your views. 🙂
What do we mean by "true colours" though? To me, a persons real "true colours" are when they are in the state of complete awareness and without judgement. The "true colours" you seem to be referring to are when the real true colours are masked by personalities created in the mind, so it's not really the true person you are seeing, but an act of their personality (note: "Personality" comes from the latin "Persona" meaning "mask").
By this I mean that they descend from the love and light vibe and reveal a much more realistic/earthly/truer side to themselves when they condemn me. The vibe changes to being negative and patronising. It feels like they have been wearing a mask or presenting a persona, as you say here.
My point is though, that you have your own perception of what is "realistic" or "true" and you are perceiving people who are condemning or judging others as being true. I differ in my perception as I see that people being judgemental are not being their true self, they are being untrue to themselves by allowing the ego/mind to create dualistic judgements. The dualistic judgements stem from thoughts/memories in the past being projected into the future/present by the mind, rather than using discernement in the present moment. Those things from the past are just creations within mind, they're not real or true in the present moment. True discernment in the present moment will allow a person to act as needed right now, with clarity of awareness, and without allowing unecessary emotional re-actions to take place.
Well, as a realist, I see that we are here on earth with our egos. Our egos create separation and hence we are more likely to perceive dualistically than if we had mastered the ego and become spiritualised.
Question for you... are we born with ego? does a baby naturally have ego and perceive things dualistically?
We are in 3d not 5d (where it is possible to maintain unconditional love). I have good awareness but perhaps my judging is due to a reflection of my morals. I can't seem to help it. I can see the potential/the good in most but I seem fairly quick to disapprove of those having a high regard for materialistic values and not delving deep into their being.
I recognise that we all live our lives according to our values but the greed for materialism is at the heart of what is wrong with so much in our society.
Indeed, and I think the discussion about greed and meterialism could certianly fill a whole topic in itself. It's certainly dualistic in it's own nature; people seeking to make things 'theirs' and then conflict arising if those things are lost or taken from them.
Everybody has good awareness underneath that ego mind, it's just a case of them wanting to get back to it and dedicating themselves to whatever practices or exercises they want to use to lessen the effects of the ego mind, whether that's meditation, self-awareness exercises or whatever.
In your own case there, you say you are quick to disapprove of those having high regard for materialistic values and not devling into their being. Your disapproval will do nothing for the other person, except cause conflict between you, and it will do nothing for yourself except maintain that conflict. The only person who can change that and remove the conflict is yourself, should you choose to do that, just as the other person can choose to become less materialistic if they want, though that is their own choice. Of course, if that is their choice, and there are people who can offer advice or practices that can help with that, then that's great, but the disapproving of them will not change anything, and cannot make that choice for them.
Yes, value judgements are often criticised but more so in new age circles. Perhaps I should have addressed this thread on value judgements (not judgements).
Perhaps that's the perception, simply because many in 'new age' circles start to learn more about self awareness (let's face it, it's not something taught in schools or by parents typically), but have yet to overcome the conflicts with their own ego mind so, whilst being able to intellectualise the principles, they are letting their mind be judgemental of others who they perceive as not following such principles, and fail to recognise their own lack of awareness still. Of course I can only speculate; the only people who would know that answer is themselves. For example, I can speak of myself, and know that I find the awareness and being present a 'right' place to be, yet I know I lapse from this awareness and being present, and I know that my mind causes distractions etc. and even such judgements do arise. Perhaps though, because of continued practice of meditation and suchlike, and understanding the principles, I can catch my mind doing this (not every time, but often) and choose to let such judgements go, bringing mself back to awareness.
Throughout our early lives we are taught by parents, teachers, peers, media etc. to become dualistic, materialistic, and even greedy and judgemental; that these things are part of the 'good life'. Recognising that these are not true ways of being and re-learning how to be our true self is not something that happens overnight (unless you really do have some incident that causes greate enlightenment), so it does take continued practice and re-evaluation of ourselves every moment we can.
What you say about non attachment and judgement was very interesting. Perhaps I am too attached to my morals.
Nothing wrong with having morals, though consider that if you let go of attachment to them (and other things) then living a moral lifestyle is something that will naturally arise anyway. Being free of attachments and living in greater awareness in the present moment, can not only benefit yourself but those around you as you also naturally remove the conflict between yourself and others and then the only conflict is that which they create themselves, but if that is not re-acted to by you, then they too can start to realise awareness of what they are doing, and so on and so on.
This is why, for example, if people go amongst others practicing awareness, such as a group of buddhists, they typically come away finding themselves more at peace and aware themselves, and they didn't even have to try and do anything. (and the opposite is true, a person could go into a group of people having lots of conflict and find the conflict then arises within themselves, and they don't know how they got drawn into it).
All Love and Reiki Hugs
The dualistic judgements stem from thoughts/memories in the past being projected into the future/present by the mind, rather than using discernement in the present moment. Those things from the past are just creations within mind, they're not real or true in the present moment. True discernment in the present moment will allow a person to act as needed right now, with clarity of awareness, and without allowing unecessary emotional re-actions to take place.
Yes I understand this and want to be more like this. I have become more accepting/less reactive of others of late which feels as it should be. However, when I react it's not to be negative (although I guess that this is how it is perceived by the other) but more to cause food for thought, i.e. to bring about awareness. So this is why it is hard for me to phase this out. I realise this entails a judgement that spirituality is more evolved than materialism but I think this may also be a truth!
Question for you... are we born with ego? does a baby naturally have ego and perceive things dualistically?
Not when born but it does develop this by about the age of 2 (hence the "terrible 2s"). It then realises that it is separate from other things. This makes sense to me since, if you believe in souls, we were once part of the divine/one source and separate to come to earth and, likewise, go back to source after death.
This is why, for example, if people go amongst others practicing awareness, such as a group of buddhists, they typically come away finding themselves more at peace and aware themselves, and they didn't even have to try and do anything. (and the opposite is true, a person could go into a group of people having lots of conflict and find the conflict then arises within themselves, and they don't know how they got drawn into it).
Yes, I understand the merit in how you are being a direct influence/role model in itself. That doesn't really work well online though where it is hard to give a realistic/accurate picture of self and, even then, people tend to pick up on what they want to and take issue with this or miss the point.
Again, thank you for your post and your time. I have put this thread on 2 other spiritual forums and, have to say, your posts have been the most valuable to me
so far on shedding light/understanding on this issue. I really appreciate that. 🙂
Excuse me for reformatting your posts to break the quoted sections out, as it's quite difficult to read them when everything gets quoted together and squashed by the forum into a little box. 😉
Not when born but it does develop this by about the age of 2 (hence the "terrible 2s"). It then realises that it is separate from other things. This makes sense to me since, if you believe in souls, we were once part of the divine/one source and separate to come to earth and, likewise, go back to source after death.
Yes, it's believed it happens around that age.
I guess we'll have to agree to differ on the matter of believing in souls and that we separate to come to earth. That's not my understanding and I have never come across any evidence to allow me to experience that and make it knowledge.
So, if a baby is not born with duality and it's something that is developed after a couple of years of parents and whoever playing with them and, essentially, teaching them, then how can they come to Earth as 'separate from source'? It seems a bit of a contradiction. I simply see it that the duality is a learnt behaviour embedded in the mind as they grow, clouding them from full awareness and making them believe they are the ego mind, and that the ego mind is not something that is just a part of them. If you can observe the mind... then you cannot BE the mind. The true YOU must be the awareness that is observing the mind (amongst the other parts of the overall that it observes.
All Love and Reiki Hugs
So, if a baby is not born with duality and it's something that is developed after a couple of years of parents and whoever playing with them and, essentially, teaching them, then how can they come to Earth as 'separate from source'? It seems a bit of a contradiction. I simply see it that the duality is a learnt behaviour embedded in the mind as they grow, clouding them from full awareness and making them believe they are the ego mind, and that the ego mind is not something that is just a part of them. If you can observe the mind... then you cannot BE the mind. The true YOU must be the awareness that is observing the mind (amongst the other parts of the overall that it observes.
Well, when I say "separate from source" I meant physically...this assumes you believe that a body inherits mind and spirit, hence no longer part of the divine single source/consciousness.
I agree that duality appears to be learnt behaviour although I am not sure how this is instilled in a 2 year old. Is it more that they come to understand - for instance - that their toy is not just for themselves and have to learn to share? It seems something fundamental like this kicks in at that age.
Yes I agree with you about the mind. Our ego is not our true self...our essence is our spirit in my view. 🙂
Well, when I say "separate from source" I meant physically...this assumes you believe that a body inherits mind and spirit, hence no longer part of the divine single source/consciousness.
I agree that duality appears to be learnt behaviour although I am not sure how this is instilled in a 2 year old. Is it more that they come to understand - for instance - that their toy is not just for themselves and have to learn to share? It seems something fundamental like this kicks in at that age.
Yes I agree with you about the mind. Our ego is not our true self...our essence is our spirit in my view. 🙂
There's all sorts of things teaching them duality. Just teaching them their name and that you as parents are "mummy" and "daddy" as separate 'others' is duality. 😉
I do not perceive that the body inherits mind and spirit, for mind and spirit are to my understanding just two aspects of our seven aspects of consciousness that we set up to become a human being.
To experience a physical life experience requires us to divide off our one consciousness into different aspects of consciousness that are capable of physical interaction within a physical reality, consciousness on its own has no way of feeling, to feel we need to merge our consciousness within something that is physically alive, hence our body.
To experience emotions, requires a physical body that is capable of reacting to our every thought (not just our everyday thinking mind aspect of consciousness) and creating physical sensations to match them, to experience pain and suffering requires us to create division and conflict between our aspects of consciousness, which is then reflected within our bodies to create our emotional responses and our general state of health and well being.
Yet within all of our life experiences and all of the division that we create to allow the diversity of our life experiences to flourish and unfold within us, an aspect of our consciousness remains one within the oneness of consciousnesses, we are all one, there are no greater or lesser human beings, there are no right or wrong life experiences, we are all sharing this planet within a reality of one physical life experience, that is unfolding within the oneness of consciousness, all is one. 🙂
Becoming aware of self and the divisions that create and flavour our life experience, does not stop us enjoying our life experience, understanding that we are all one, does not stop us disagreeing with someone else's thoughts and the resulting actions that manifest from them, but working from a base understanding of oneness and acceptance, rather than of division and conflict, allows us to choose how we wish to react within our life experience, rather than being driven to react, we can choose to be rather than being driven to try and be. 🙂
Yet within all of our life experiences and all of the division that we create to allow the diversity of our life experiences to flourish and unfold within us, an aspect of our consciousness remains one within the oneness of consciousnesses, we are all one, there are no greater or lesser human beings, there are no right or wrong life experiences, we are all sharing this planet within a reality of one physical life experience, that is unfolding within the oneness of consciousness, all is one. 🙂
Yes I agree that there is still a connection to source that can be made stronger. I believe we all have the spark of divinity within us. No right or wrong life experiences? No positive or negative? Have to disagree with you there. There are such things as lower and higher vibrations however you choose to define it. We can choose to reach our potential or be less and cause suffering to ourselves and those around us.
Becoming aware of self and the divisions that create and flavour our life experience, does not stop us enjoying our life experience, understanding that we are all one, does not stop us disagreeing with someone else's thoughts and the resulting actions that manifest from them, but working from a base understanding of oneness and acceptance, rather than of division and conflict, allows us to choose how we wish to react within our life experience, rather than being driven to react, we can choose to be rather than being driven to try and be. 🙂
Reminding ourselves that we are all one (at source, spiritually) is often hard to stay in awareness when what we are daily grappling with are other people's egos. In the immediacy of conversation, I would say that this is quite hard to achieve although I also recognise that trying to stay focused on love is helpful in this. I can't claim to always stay connected to love although it's a work in progress.
Hi Amy
Yes I agree that there is still a connection to source that can be made stronger. I believe we all have the spark of divinity within us. No right or wrong life experiences? No positive or negative? Have to disagree with you there. There are such things as lower and higher vibrations however you choose to define it. We can choose to reach our potential or be less and cause suffering to ourselves and those around us.
If we consider that we are all one, then we can't become more or less than we already are, we are all complete within the fullness of self and everything, we can learn new things but that does not actually change what we are, it just allows us to do different things and create different experiences; though I agree that we can choose to perceive something as greater or lesser than what we are allowing ourselves to perceive right now, but it is only the perception that changes. 🙂
Reminding ourselves that we are all one (at source, spiritually) is often hard to stay in awareness when what we are daily grappling with are other people's egos. In the immediacy of conversation, I would say that this is quite hard to achieve although I also recognise that trying to stay focused on love is helpful in this. I can't claim to always stay connected to love although it's a work in progress.
This is not something that I find I have to remind myself about, I do not have to focus upon it, much the same as I do not normally regulate my breathing unless I am doing a guided meditation, it just an integral aspect of what I am.
People are people, it is the diversity of people that colour and enrich our life experience, I guess I just accept people like everything else as an aspect of the oneness, in the absence of judgment, there is no conflict, there is a lot to be said for stopping trying to be anything and just allowing ourselves and others to simply be. 🙂
Hi Amy
If we consider that we are all one, then we can't become more or less than we already are, we are all complete within the fullness of self and everything, we can learn new things but that does not actually change what we are, it just allows us to do different things and create different experiences; though I agree that we can choose to perceive something as greater or lesser than what we are allowing ourselves to perceive right now, but it is only the perception that changes. 🙂
This is not something that I find I have to remind myself about, I do not have to focus upon it, much the same as I do not normally regulate my breathing unless I am doing a guided meditation, it just an integral aspect of what I am.
People are people, it is the diversity of people that colour and enrich our life experience, I guess I just accept people like everything else as an aspect of the oneness, in the absence of judgment, there is no conflict, there is a lot to be said for stopping trying to be anything and just allowing ourselves and others to simply be. 🙂
Paul - presumably there was a time when you DID judge? I am wondering how you made the transition, e.g. was it a gradual one or a flashing insight? I seem so far from that state and, to be frank, I like having opinions!
I know we have trod this ground before so, forgive me if I am repeating myself but, if there is no wrong or right, then presumably you have no morals either? What guides your behaviour then?
Hi Amy
Paul - presumably there was a time when you DID judge? I am wondering how you made the transition, e.g. was it a gradual one or a flashing insight? I seem so far from that state and, to be frank, I like having opinions!
The transaction started when I decided to embrace self rather than continue to judge and reject self, through that I encountered the fullness of self and then the fullness of everything or the oneness of consciousness.
Just because I choose to be non-judgmental, does not stop me thinking for myself, I still have opinions about things, though they are different now to what they used to be when my opinions were formed from judgmental beliefs. 🙂
I know we have trod this ground before so, forgive me if I am repeating myself but, if there is no wrong or right, then presumably you have no morals either? What guides your behaviour then?
I suppose the short answer to this question, is simply that I take personal responsibility for my own thought patterns and beliefs and the things that manifest from them.
Although I accept that all things are in existence to create the diverse life experiences that people are creating right now, I reserve the right to maintain my freedom to chose my own path and any course of action that might be required in any given situation, irrespective of what others might think, believe or do themselves.
Paul - thanks for sharing that. At the risk of looking thick, how does having judgement mean rejecting self? I don't feel I am rejecting myself at all - in fact I feel empowered.
Hi Amy
No it is not being thick, it is simply that it is often difficult to see the wood for the trees at times. 🙂
A judgment is simply a division between one thing and another thing that sets up a conflict, if we set up a judgmental belief about anything, then that judgment is always applied to self, regardless of what it is or who we have applied it to, so if we do not live up to that judgmental belief to the letter, then we are forced to reject the aspect of self that is not good enough or not as we would judge ourselves to be.
Some people call it our ego and think that it is OK to reject anything that comes from it (it is just the ego so I tell it to shut up or ignore it etc), but our ego is still an integral aspect of self, so to reject it in opposition to what we judge ourselves to be, is to reject self.
Whenever we say to self that we are better or worse, more or less spiritual, have better or worse moral judgments than someone else, or we would never do what they have done etc, we are simply judging and rejecting self. To judge self to be anything other than what we really are, is to reject aspects of self, we therefor set up inner divisional conflicts in place of harmony and wholeness.
To my understanding, when we become free from the judgmental beliefs that force us to be judgmental, we simply allow ourselves to become our self, rather than always striving to become something other than what we really are. 🙂
Hi Amy
A judgment is simply a division between one thing and another thing that sets up a conflict, if we set up a judgmental belief about anything, then that judgment is always applied to self, regardless of what it is or who we have applied it to, so if we do not live up to that judgmental belief to the letter, then we are forced to reject the aspect of self that is not good enough or not as we would judge ourselves to be.
Ah this is the mirroring thing again. It has its place but not everything is about mirroring - that's a flaw with this perception in my view. We don't all have the
same qualities .... if we did, then this mirroring would hold weight applied across
the board. It is a much overused tool, inappropriately I feel.
Are you familiar with John Welwood and spiritual bypasses? I did a thread on it here and this is the relevant section that addresses this issue
"The Accountability Bypass- The tendency to use ‘mirror/reflection’ and ‘no judgment’ techniques in an effort to sidestep our own responsibility or the responsibility of others for wrong action. Lodged in the ungrounded notion that there is no wrongdoing, the effect of these practices is to condone and perpetuate unhealthy behaviors and to discourage victims from their rightful and necessary healing process."
HI Amy
Sorry but I am not familiar with the work of John Welwood or anyone else's work come to that. 🙂
But you are not addressing the issue with that reply, I have never advocated that people should avoid taking personal responsibility for their own thought patterns and beliefs or the actions that come out of them, we are all 100% responsible for self.
There is a world of difference between being responsible for self and judging what we think and do according to a set of judgmental beliefs or values. Personal responsibility gives us the choice to be and make free choices in any given situation.
If we observe what is happening in the middle east at the moment, people are using judgmental beliefs to impose their rightness onto others, if people do not comply with their judgmental beliefs, then they are being tortured and killed, simply because they are judged to be wrong.
To my understanding if they were to replace judgmental rightness with personal responsibility, then the killing and maiming would stop.
Personal responsibility plays a large part in the healing process, blaming others and not taking personal responsibility does not have any part to play in healing, because it creates victims and divisional conflict, which is basically what healing sets people free from. 🙂
Paul - fundamentalism is an extreme example of being judgemental so, of course, it is flawed. I just see the limits of mirroring, i.e. what you judge in others is in yourself since it does not ring true always. Sometimes the discerning quality that is observed really is inherent to that person and is not in one's self!!! We all have vices but, to the extent that they are prominent or not, is pertinent. If someone behaves in a trollish manner/deliberately provocative and I see that (to you it is a judgement, to me a discernment), then that does not mean it is reflecting a quality in myself at all.
Hi Amy
It is sometime a little difficult to both have our cake and eat it, personally I do not perceive that people have vices, I just see people who are all as capable of doing exactly what everyone else can do, given the right incentive or set of circumstances.
This is the rub we are all one, we are all an integral aspect of the oneness, so what one can do everyone can do, what one perceives as a vice or excess in someone else, is often not perceived by the person or other people as a vice or being excessive.
What do you think makes your judgments of someone else valid to anyone else but yourself? Thinking thoughts of others has absolutely no impact upon them, but if we are choosing to be judgmental within our thoughts about self and others, then it does have repercussions upon self, if people are happy to take personal responsibility for the repercussions of being judgmental, then that is their personal choice.