Is this Rumi or A Course in Miracles???

[QUOTE=Healistic;415267If you can see and touch the script of a piece of writing by the originator of the writings (not channelled) then that becomes tangible, but if someone says so and so said xxx in whatever year without any tangible evidence, then is that not just hearsay.

Usually it's very easy to see who wrote a quotable piece (first!). In whose work is it first printed? For purposes of 99.9% of quotes that suffices. It's pretty unusual not to know the original writer, as in this thread. I see what you mean: it's "not necessarily by Rumi" unless we can find it in the works. Hearsay is no good at all, right. In this specific case, it begins with Rumi if it can be found in Rumi's work, but I get the impression Kalki knows it isn't in the Rumi works.

Trin, yes, it's easy to join the discussion part of Wikipedia which kind of underlies the obvious pages. Just like joining a forum. Then you can post to or maybe even contact Kalki. (I'm signed up, but didn't take it that far.)

V

Hi V 😮

I enjoyed reading your interesting post (post number 8 that is).

The concept of 'ownership' is rather a interesting one!

I do remember writing a poem many years back. Some time passed and I read a passage from a book, at which point my eyes almost popped out of my head! They had written almost word for word the same as one of the verses in my poem!!! I'd never read anything like it before. So your sharing above does strike a chord.

Trin
x

Hi Trin - I would have been shocked by that too! 😮

I've been away from HP for a while and am just catching up. Thanks for starting this interesting thread and the comments about channelling and how the unconscious mind picks up what is in the general atmosphere.

I can't comment on the Rumo quote, but I remember reading something from ACIM once and being amazed to see the exact phrase "the infinite ocean of Love" which I was familiar with from Mary Baker Eddy's Miscellaneous Writings "The baptism of Spirit, or final immersion of human consciousness in the infinite ocean of Love, is the last scene in corporeal sense." (p 205, written in 1892)

There is a huge amount in ACIM which is very familiar, especially the discussion about Genesis and the Adam dream. But then, her friend and colleague, Dr. William Thetford, who had helped produce the book, had grown up in a Christian Science home and had attended CS Sunday School till the age of 7, so who knows what the influences were. I have also read that Helen Schucman's mother was a Theosopist, so again, if there are similarities with that, it's not surprising.

Love and peace,

Judy

Hi Judy,

Thank you for the post and sharing your interesting comments on ACIM.

I guess when it comes to the crunch there are only so many words and different combinations we have in the English language :rolleyes:

ACIM is an interesting read indeed. I did read it once (although it is a very BIG read as I am sure you know :))... despite the fact that I am not typically into reading.

Love
Trin
p.s. Congratulations on your 2000 th post :nature-smiley-008:

Trin, yes, it's easy to join the discussion part of Wikipedia which kind of underlies the obvious pages. Just like joining a forum. Then you can post to or maybe even contact Kalki. (I'm signed up, but didn't take it that far.)

V

Thank you V 🙂

Kalki and I exchanged a private email although I think the findings were pretty much as shared here in that it is quoted in A Course in Miracles as part of a wider text.

With respect to Rumi, it has been quoted as his work although never with a definite citation of a translation of his works (or atleast not that anyone has shown that we are able to locate through internet searching).

So unless any other info arises to prove otherwise, it looks like the quote is not from Rumi but rather Helen Schuman in ACIM.

Warm Regards
Trin

Completely off-topic trin 😮 , but though the daytimes at the moment are sunny in England, the nights are getting seriously cold (I'm a sun person), and your new avatar photo shone some welcome sun out of my monitor! 🙂

Back on-topic, I don't want to sound too sceptical, but I'd imagine that "infinite ocean of Love" does indeed crop up here and there in a number of spiritual texts. It's that kind of phrase ...

P.S. Yes - I just googled it. Looking at about the first 20 hits, I don't think a single one was from the same source, and roughly half were of Hindu origin. One article somehow even inludes it though the subject is "How The Saudi Government is using the Bush Administration and Alien Technology to Destroy America"!

V

:nature-smiley-008:Just in case you need an extra dose

p.s. Congratulations on your 2000 th post :nature-smiley-008:

You're observant Trin! :p

Actually, seeing that HP has been redesigned three times and twice we started again from the beginning, and then there was once a horrible time (before I saved my researched and more serious posts) when a hacker got in and removed about 3 months of posts, I reckon I must have posted at least 6,000 times in the past 6 years! (I joined in Nov 2001, so must be one of the OLDEST members!)

So V, MBE might have picked up her Infinite Ocean of Love from Hindu thought in the general atmosphere - or more obviously, from divine revelation, which of course no-one has the monopoly on, but how they got that into "How The Saudi Government is using the Bush Administration and Alien Technology to Destroy America" I can't imagine! :confused:

Judy

So V, MBE might have picked up her Infinite Ocean of Love from Hindu thought in the general atmosphere - or more obviously, from divine revelation

What I really felt and meant, Judy, is that while you don't hear people talking like that on every street corner, in spiritual conversation its the kind of thing one could easily come out with. Really, I hear such a thing said often. 🙂 It takes a longer sentence or a paragraph I'd say to make one curious about 'Who copied from whom?'

but how they got that into "How The Saudi Government is using the Bush Administration and Alien Technology to Destroy America" I can't imagine! :confused:

Probably picked it up from MBE?

Seriously, it was a long article, so I didn't read down to see how on earth they fitted that phrase into that subject!

V

Just to add my tuppence...

I recall that line from ACIM very clearly, but have never come across it in the reading of Rumi poems I have done. Indeed, it seems a particularly un-Sufi-like sentiment to me - I always understood Sufism to encourage longing for God, as the most reliable path to God.

many blessings
Elinor

Hi Elinor,

Thank you for sharing 🙂

I remember reading that particular line in ACIM too.

It doesn't surprise me however that it would be mistaken for a Rumi line... the sufi poetry that resonates with me personally tends to invite us to open our hearts beyond the veil of illusion. I don't necessarily think that it is all about 'longing for God' in the literal sense of the matter either. This I feel is symbolic of the longing to remember who we truly are. Of course, poetry is an interpretation of someone's 'soul speak', which is ultimately beyond all words.

It does most definately feel like something Rumi would have conveyed in his poetry. I don't think that it is his line though. The evidence points towards it being ACIM. It is likely that it was misquoted and that misquote spread like wildfire across the internet.

Warm Regards
Trin

Rumi Expert against consensus

The following email exchange with a Persian scholar on this topic persuades me that the quote is not Rumi:

From: Ibrahim Gamard [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Von Smith
Subject: Re: verity of a quote attributed to Rumi

Dear Von,

I've been asked about this before, I couldn't trace it, and I wrote that it is obviously too modern and psychological to be Rumi. The word "barrier" is too unpoetic. And "love" is too vague: Rumi was a religious mystic, so he uses the word to mean God's love or love of God.

But you seem to have found the source of the quote in the "Course on Miracles"
[url]Quotes from A Course In Miracles[/url]
and I thank you for that.

It's also been added to a fake quote from another great Sufi master, Ibn al-'Arabi:
[url]Love Is A Place: Ibn Arabi[/url]
[url]MYSTICISM : On the Polished Mirror[/url]

Strangely, I found a webpage on which this "Rumi quote" has been translated into Persian prose!
[url]Rumi: Your task is not to seek for love . . . | Exopermaculture[/url]

Ibrahim
----------------
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Von Smith wrote:
Dear Sir,

I read your pages with great interest. I read a quote attributed to Rumi on Facebook. It did not sound like what I have read. This attribution is everywhere on the internet, mostly attributed to Rumi, but also attributed to the authors of “A Course in Miracles.” Could tell me if this is a Rumi quote, and if so, where I could find it. If not, that would be excellent information from an expert source.
“Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”
I appreciate your scholarship and industry.
Sincerely,
Von Smith

Rumi Festival

Whether it be from Rumi or a Course in Miracles the message is a universal one. For anyone who's interested in the universal message of love and the unity of being why not take a look at the Rumi Festival this August 2 - 4th in the beautiful Scottish Borders rumifestival.org

Hello...perhaps your job is not to search for whom to sue for plagiarism, but to find the barriers you have created to block the love...

Note that those who attribute the quote to ACIM can point to the exact page, whereas those who attribute it to Rumi have not (so far, at least) specified which of Rumi's poems it comes from. Even without ACIM, it would be suspect as coming from Rumi, as it is not at all in Rumi's style of ecstatic poetry. Note also that the "attribution" by the BBC is part of a sidebar collection of short quotes, unrelated to the remarks by Prof. Crystal. Far more likely that this is a phony Rumi "quote", of which there are dozens in circulation on the internet.