Incarnations, the dead and deities...

This is Barafundle's post from the "psychics, mediums and sensitives thread:"

I admit I haven't read all that's been written here, but, Norbu how does this fit in with the idea of the [url]bardo states described in Buddhism[/url]?

The life is, you see, this life itself; dying is the process of dying, and when the anger, desire, ignorance, all those that obscure our nature of mind, dies, revealing the fundamental luminosity, and then there comes the after-death state, where the clear light, or the intrinsic radiance, appears, which is traditionally in the teaching called the bardo of dharmata.

I believe I've had experience of disembodied people communicating with me on a couple of occasions. Personally I wouldn't want to make any kind of contact. They do their thing and I do mine. If guidance is needed in life I've generally found that there are quite a few live people who are easier to talk to.

To start this off. The idea of communicating with a person who has died would, under normal circumstances, be discouraged because the mindstream of the dead would be distracted from it's task in the death bardo, to realise it's essential nature or to attain an auspicious rebirth. Even family members are not present at the sky burial so that the departed mindstream is not distracted by morning relative.

Rituals, including the reading of the Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead), would take place during the death process and for a period of, I think, 30 days after the person has died. Reading the Bardo Thodol is to give advice to the mind stream of the dead person on how to negotiate the death process and encourage it to recognise it's own nature and be liberated from the cycle of rebirth.

I seem to remember from "Sacred Pipe" that the Oglala Sioux would not even mention the name of the dead after a similar sky burial ritual had taken place so that the departed soul would not be distracted from their journey. Maybe someone else has read this book and can correct me? (It was 30 years ago I read it and I didn't finish it.)

We can talk about deities and Buddhas and more about the bardo of dying tomorrow!

Norbu

This is Barafundle's post from the "psychics, mediums and sensitives thread:"

To start this off. The idea of communicating with a person who has died would, under normal circumstances, be discouraged because the mindstream of the dead would be distracted from it's task in the death bardo, to realise it's essential nature or to attain an auspicious rebirth. Even family members are not present at the sky burial so that the departed mindstream is not distracted by morning relative.

Rituals, including the reading of the Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead), would take place during the death process and for a period of, I think, 30 days after the person has died. Reading the Bardo Thodol is to give advice to the mind stream of the dead person on how to negotiate the death process and encourage it to recognise it's own nature and be liberated from the cycle of rebirth.

I seem to remember from "Sacred Pipe" that the Oglala Sioux would not even mention the name of the dead after a similar sky burial ritual had taken place so that the departed soul would not be distracted from their journey. Maybe someone else has read this book and can correct me? (It was 30 years ago I read it and I didn't finish it.)

We can talk about deities and Buddhas and more about the bardo of dying tomorrow!

Norbu

How does anybody know what actually happens when we pass over.
Nearly all explanations are quotes from sources claiming to have inside knowledge. If I have read it right Buddhist are trying not to be reborn, where as Spiritualists regard re birth as an opportunity to further their development. If that is the case, it would appear that the Spiritualists need the earthly time for progress...This sounds logical to me as if progress is possible "on the other side", why get born in the first place.

Dear Norbu and everyone
I hope it is alright to bring your words here from the "psychics, mediums and sensitives thread"

Dear Flit,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flit [url][/url]
Norbu, I love the story of your son. The way I see it, his help was unconditional. It is how it should be. The consequences that followed were something that I would say "Oh good!" to, but the reward is simply in the doing, anyway.

Isn't there some kind of principle of cause and effect going on here? Is it that kindness, by definition must be unconditional, and that kindness given tends to attract what we need? Do we need supernatural intervention other than this? It this not just natural?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flit [url][/url]
As I look around, just even yesterday I saw that help for each other, on the streets, in the living, is how it is, anyway, with no thought for what is in it "for me". We share this planet together and can share our love and living, if we chose to make that our focus.

Isn't that about all there is to it? And how much more are we part of this by noticing it? Or do we need the assistance of supernatural beings to persuade us to live like this?

Norbu

I hope it is alright to just try to share....
First,,, do I need assistance?
Yes I do.
Do I need the assistance of something that is super-natural? I am not so sure about that... you say this,, "... just natural?"
I like that idea, that this way of living could be just natural.
But the next word after super-natural is being.
So a super-natural being is a being that could "assist" us when necessary.
Assist us to what?
I see in your words there is the word persuade.
In my experience there is no persuading, not ever, not even a teeny little bit.
Persuading doesn't come into it.

I need to find another word other than super-natural and being.

The word that is easiest for me to use is "Love".
I believe that we all come from a place of Love and Love has many different levels and depths.
We, each of us are 3-d Love here but often we don't know it, we don't feel it, and it doesn't feel like Love living here.

The feeling within of Love assists me in the understanding of the true reality of Love here. There is no persuasion, no expectation of how I should live, there is just one-ness.

When you want to be-Love more than anything, it becomes a life-time living.

I couldn't do this on my own. I can't hug on my own. I can't love alone.
But I can begin to try to understand where the Love is in each situation I encounter and within each living person I meet on this planet I share this space with.

Does it make a difference?
To me, it does.
I can allow myself to reach out to touch to be to know to hear to listen to speak with to laugh to walk with and to laugh with again, I can begin to share joy and tears and oh so so so much I couldn't before.
Yes, Norbu, it is natural, but I wasn't. I was so not natural and yes Love does help me live, simply live, like others seem to be able to oh so naturally anyway.

I am amazed at this living we do and so in awe of how we do this.

Love can be within anyone here, and also from those who are not here. There can be Love within a sunset and in the flowers and really anything that moves me. There is such a depth of Love within the very fabric of our life. This is part of my life-time search, not for something "special" but for the actuality within the reality of this living.

So, now, I can begin to listen to the whisperings within my heart and to feel the way within the depths of my soul.

Norbu, the way I am, is just, I do the best I can to try to understand all this, I hope my sharing is okay.

And finally this string offers a environment for discussing experience or potential for communication or relationship with such beings.

I would just like to discuss the idea first of communication with something such as guides.

I was quite scared at the idea and didn't know what to expect but I asked and then left it to see what evolved.

I decided that if nothing happened, then I would know one of two things... either that I didn't have guides, or that the whole idea was made up. And to be truthful I didn't have an expectation of an answer.

When I did have a response, out of the blue, it was words in my head.
There was no mistaking this,.... they were not my words and it wasn't my inner voice. But, because, it came from within it was part of me and in me.

For this reason, I don't believe that we need to search for what is out there. We are born with ways of communication within us, we just need to begin a journey of rediscovery of the very fabric of our true nature and let the Love that we are overflow out of the very fabric of our being.

All that we are and all that we will be, is in us.

Hi Scommstech,

How does anybody know what actually happens when we pass over.

The main source of evidence for the kinds of experience described in the Bardo Thodol come from meditation practitioners. There is some information here about it''s origins :
To my mind the central meaning of the document is that what we experience after the physical body dies is a projection of our minds. If we can realise this and maintain a our minds in a peaceful state and not be drawn into believing the separate reality of our experiences (outside the projections of our own mind) we have during the death process we may be liberated. If we are distracted we will be reborn. In the state of transition after death we experience our karma purely. We have no control over it. So it is how we live our lives that dictates our death experience. If we practice loving-kindness and practice stabilising our minds in life we will be more likely to be able to recognise the nature of our mind in the death process.

There is said to be similarity with the death process and dreaming. Lucid dreaming is one of the practices that is said to give an opportunity realise that the dream is a projection of the mind, similar to the way the mind can realise it's experience is it's projection in the intermediate state after death and before the next rebirth.

Being quite a serious meditator and having had lucid dreams (and other dreamlike states) where I've had this kind of experience, this makes a lot of sense to me.

Norbu

My dear Flit,

I hope it is alright to just try to share....

Of course it is!

I agree with you that the nearest thing we can describe as being ultimate reality is "Love." And that this needs a subject and an object. For me thought this subject and object is like a light and its reflection in a mirror. It is the lover and the beloved, but this beloved is not a supernatural being, the "lover and the beloved" exist in our hearts and in everything we see with an open heart. And yes this is the most powerful condition there is and gentle and subtle at the same time.

And thanks for your post about your guide. This hasn't happened to me but maybe that's because I believe guidance is there naturally in all experience. I have often prayed for guidance and even asked for guidance from some kind of being but I've never had a response from any particular entity.

In the end the only guidance I really feel I need is in the stillness of my heart/mind meditating on the nature of love and it's subject and object.

I'll write more about the idea of deities and demons in Tibetan/Mahayana Buddhism later. There are also examples of contacting spirits in Tibetan Buddhist traditions but as I understand it there is some controversy over the merits of this. This aspect of Buddhist tradition, however, is not mainstream at the very least and isn't something that I know a great deal about.

Norbu

Norbu, thank you. Your words are lovely.

I love this...

I agree with you that the nearest thing we can describe as being ultimate reality is "Love." And that this needs a subject and an object. For me thought this subject and object is like a light and its reflection in a mirror. It is the lover and the beloved, but this beloved is not a supernatural being, the "lover and the beloved" exist in our hearts and in everything we see with an open heart. And yes this is the most powerful condition there is and gentle and subtle at the same time.

Yes, oh so yes!

And thanks for your post about your guide.

First, for me, the word guide has an s on the end, but also it changes, it all changes just like life does.

Imagine if as a child the only way you could walk would be when you were holding the hand of an adult?
How would you ever learn to take the steps by yourself, how to do things, and how to balance and then that it's okay to fall over and pick yourself up?

I have to learn how to be here, how to speak here and be myself, for myself..... and if my focus, is, that I need to keep asking for help with what to say and how to be, then that isn't very authentic for me is it?
I just simply have to learn to listen to myself...

So, when I read your words....

I believe guidance is there naturally in all experience.

I think that is lovely....and yes I do ask for the openness but sometimes I forget...
and maybe I am now at a point where I can begin to see that.

I think this is about learning to trust myself that I am authentic and that I do not need to speak the words of someone else whether they are still living here or not.

Dear Flit,

I think this is about learning to trust myself that I am authentic and that I do not need to speak the words of someone else whether they are still living here or not.

What you say here is very interesting. You are suggesting, please correct me if I'm wrong, that the guidance you get from your guides helps you to have confidence in the validity of the guidance that is given to you. And that you are suggesting this is because you don't have the confidence in yourself.

All I can say is that the only thing that one possibly have confidence in is something you clearly have a deep connection to. That is the live that is connected to the experience of unconditional lovingkindness rooted in your heart.

I guess, when one becomes distracted from this one feels lost somehow. Yes I get this feeling a lot and want so much to reconnect again with this state. I have to remember, as I go about the days activities, that it is still there even if I've been distracted. It is hard to be doing other things and thinking about other things and talking with people about other things and still to remain connected. That's a big task. A really big task. I think this might take very many lifetimes! Then just a smile brings it back.

Norbu

Deities, Angels and saints

Deities in Mahayana Buddhism seem to have similarities with angels and even saints in other traditions.

Deities are visualised during a practice and then the practitioner takes on the qualities of the deity. The deity is a projection and then the projection returns to the practitioner.

Deities can also be understood as archetypal beings so the distinction between the projection of the practitioner and what exists as an archetype independently of seems to be blurred. In this sense the practitioner is connecting with the archetype of compassion or wisdom or whatever and taking on the qualities of that archetype.

So this has some similarities with devotional practices in some other traditions and ideas of receiving guidance from angels and saints. The main difference, it seems to me, is the fact that other traditions see these beings as more having a separate and independent existence than as is the case in this kind of Buddhist practice.

Norbu

What you say here is very interesting. You are suggesting, please correct me if I'm wrong, that the guidance you get from your guides helps you to have confidence in the validity of the guidance that is given to you. And that you are suggesting this is because you don't have the confidence in yourself.

I do not have much confidence in myself no, but there is no mistaking the feeling of Love within.
I do trust that feeling of Love because it comes out of the blue and isn't something that I have created because I wanted it to happen.
The inner feeling of Love isn't something that could be created.

What I want to try to share today is about the use of the word guides.
I used that word because, for me, that is how it began.
But it isn't really like that.
It isn't like being told where to go or what to do.

Simply put, it's a relationship.
It's just like this...

For me thought this subject and object is like a light and its reflection in a mirror. It is the lover and the beloved,

Norbu, this is wonderful....

Then just a smile brings it back.

That's lovely!
Thank you so so so much for sharing.

I have to remember, as I go about the days activities, that it is still there even if I've been distracted. It is hard to be doing other things and thinking about other things and talking with people about other things and still to remain connected. That's a big task. A really big task.

Yes, it is a big task, especially if we try to do it on our own.

I ask ask and ask again for my focus to be Love and in the living.

I talk with people and ask for Love.
I ask for Love to be with me in all things.
It's a constant even though I do sometimes forget.
I ask for help with the being open to the Love there is anyway in the living.

Yes it is a big task, but we don't need to do it alone.
I do forget, I do get distracted, but as I journey more, I am less likely to beat nyself up for my failings.

Just one more sharing..

still to remain connected

I believe that we are anyway,
it's the remembering that's the thing.

Hello

I am new to HP and the folowing post, by the time it has been moderated and appears, may be redundant.

So this has some similarities with devotional practices in some other traditions and ideas of receiving guidance from angels and saints. The main difference, it seems to me, is the fact that other traditions see these beings as more having a separate and independent existence than as is the case in this kind of Buddhist practice.

Firstly, in Hinduism as well there is no distinction between deities and angels. There are just lesser and greater deities and all are worshipped. The notion of guides, which is much discussed in New Age literature, particularly personal guides which all earthlings have access to, is completely alien to Hindus. None of the texts written by yogis and gurus that I have read make any reference to guidance emerging from personal guides and angels. It appears that the concept of angels as distinct entities from God is specific to monotheistic religions. This distinction would be necessary, would it not in monotheism, if benevolent other worldly beings are said to exist.

From a Buddhist point of view could people’s experiences of receiving guidance be regarded as projections of their own minds? There are a great many first hand reports of receiving guidance from angels and spirit guides; some members of HP would vouch for these; Flit has spoken beautifully of her own inner guidance.

Let’s consider instances of guidance from a seemingly external source. I have a friend who was alone at home and heard someone say to her quite clearly and audibly that her dangerously sick daughter would be fine, whereupon she felt immeasurably relieved and at peace. And the daughter was fine. As far as I know, such instances of external guidance are always correct. Can the mind project these and which part of the mind is projecting? Is it the subconscious? Or the inner mind, whatever that may be, which can somehow tap into a source of knowledge of future events, decide independently what is needed by the conscious individual and deliver guidance in a variety of interesting ways. If that is the case, the Buddhist thought stream, as the individual mind is regarded, begins to acquire a dual aspect. Or perhaps there are other beings, separate from us although still a manifestation of the same reality as us, who support us throughout our lives.

Re exeperiences after death
Norbu said:
To my mind the central meaning of the document is that what we experience after the physical body dies is a projection of our minds.

I have read many accounts of post death experiences and they do refer to the facility that the spirit (will use the word just for now) has to shape its own experience immediately upon transition to the other side. You see what you expect to see. This was rather well depicted in the Robin Williams film, ‘What Dreams May Come’. But these accounts move on to say that those experiences cease as the individual realises that they are delusional and the process of examining one's past life, lessons learnt and lessons still to be learnt begins which then leads into making choices about further rebirths. What is key to the process is that the individual, whatever you may want to understand by that notion, makes decisions regarding their own evolvement, and a rebirth on earth may not be part that decision at all. This is to me a very exciting and empowering notion.

Meera

Dear Flit and Norbu,

I promised myself I would stay away from HP as I have pressing things to deal with, but couldn’t resist adding to this lovely discussion about infinite divine Love (for that is what you’re both talking about, not just the human emotion which is but a shadow of the real thing!)

I don’t know quite how the title has ended up with this, but Love is the very core of being and while I would not comment about the title, I can't be stopped when it comes to this subject! 🙂

Years ago, in a bookshop in Norfolk, I picked up a little book called “Revelations of divine Love” by Julian of Norwich as I was immediately attracted by the title. As I read her wonderful insights about the Motherhood of God, Love and how everything is good, and how all will be well, it all felt so familiar. Here is one passage that is so inspiring:

[COLOR="Blue"] ".....I saw that he is to us everything which is good and comforting for our help. He is our clothing, who wraps and enfolds us for love, embraces us and shelters us, surrounds us for his love, which is so tender that he may never desert us. And so in this sight I saw that he is everything which is good, as I understand.

In 1373 Julian of Norwich (not her real name) had a series of sixteen visions of being taught by the crucified Jesus on her death bed (which healed her). She became an anchoress in the church of St Julian (and took on its name) then wrote down (over 20 years) what she had seen, in the first religious book written in English by a woman.) It had been hidden away during Henry the VIII's dissolution of the monasteries 200 years after it had been written. It was first published in 1670, but passed unnoticed, then reprinted in 1843 and then again in 1901 and since then, it has not been out of print. Here is a bit more:

[COLOR="Blue"] "And from the time that it was shown, I often asked to know what was our Lord's meaning. And fifteen years after and more, I was answered in inward understanding, saying this:

'Would you know your Lord's meaning in this? Learn it well. Love was his meaning. Who showed it you? Love. What did he show you? Love. Why did he show it? For love. Hold fast to this and you shall learn and know more about love. But you will never need to know nor learn anything else for ever. So was I taught that love was our Lord's meaning.

And so I saw full surely that before ever God made us, he loved us. And this love was never quenched, nor ever shall be. And in this love he has done all his works, and in this love he has made all things profitable to us, and in this love our life is everlasting.

In our making we had beginning, but the love in which he made us was without beginning, in which love we have our beginning. And all this shall we see in God without end."

From In Search of Julian of Norwich by Sheila Upjohn)
Also see

Isn’t that wonderful?

Isn’t it all summed up in my signature?

Love and peace,

Judy

Thank you Judy.
That is indeed very BEAUTIFUL
Meta

Hi Meera,

I'll start at the end of your post.

What you describe about understanding of the death process seems very similar to the ideas in the Bardo Thodol. It's not a document I know well. And yes when it is realised that what is being experienced is a projection of the mind then the mind can realise it's own nature. The first opportunity for this remaining in the light of mind, I believe.

For the ealier part of you post, I think a great deal of this boils down to how we see our selves and the notion we have of self. In the Buddhist tradition this is very much about the idea that there is not a permanent self. There are just individual mindstreams that may or may not learn from their experience. Each individualised mindstream has different experiences an so is unique. If you like all experience is impermanent and there is always the potential to realise the nature of the mindstream yet, what is realised, the nature of mind itself is permanent.

Clearly you are right, there has to be communication between individualised entities on some level and sometimes communication and intuition may appear to be "other than normal." How we determine what is an entity and what is a projection is a difficult. Clearly there are lots of instances where there is a mixture of projection combined with the communication with a being (as from one person to another). Some are more aware than others, some are just more sensitive than others and some are more liable to project than others.

I don't know much more than what I experience. I do know that much of what I experience would be termed some kind of assistance from other worldly beings by some but I'm not convinced that there is a need for such divine intervention in anything that I've experienced. I do believe that there is a great deal I don't know, but like you I think it is interesting to compare different sets of beliefs and reports.

Norbu

Dear Judy,

Isn’t that wonderful?

Yes!

I don’t know quite how the title has ended up with this, but Love is the very core of being and while I would not comment about the title, I can't be stopped when it comes to this subject! 🙂

Because guidance is about the notion of the self that needs guidance and the self that gives it. This depends on the ideas we have of "self" and what types of beings can evolve, how that happens and then by what means they can communicate and what is there is to understand and what is communicated. Does that explain why the title of this string is really about "Love."

Norbu

Because guidance is about the notion of the self that needs guidance and the self that gives it. This depends on the ideas we have of "self" and what types of beings can evolve, how that happens and then by what means they can communicate and what is there is to understand and what is communicated. Does that explain why the title of this string is really about "Love."

How about if you have no notion of the self and you don't even think that there is any guide-ance to be had and because of a complete lack of self-confidence there can be no "guidance" from the self anyway?

How about if the starting off point is one of no-beliefs so there can be no evolvement of beings and no expectation of what can happen?

How about if you really have no idea that there can be any communication and so therefore have no expectations at all and it doesn't matter whether or not there is an answer because it has been so long with seemingly no thing that there is truly no expectation of a response

and then you do get a response?

And, then you get to try to understand how many ways there are of communication and a beginning of an understanding of a life-long relationship and a knowing of beings that were with you before you were born, with you always through everything even when it feels like nothing...

and a life-long yearning and learning of the threads of Love within the tapestry of our lives.

How do I begin to share something so totally unexpected, never dreamed of, completely out of any experience I ever expected?

How do I begin to share something so totally unexpected, never dreamed of, completely out of any experience I ever expected?

You just did! And it was a joy to read.

This will make you laugh: I have really racked up my time spend meditating in the last month. I've felt the need to break through some obstacles. Anyway, last Tuesday it was quite strong for various reasons. And I had a visualisation of a very large figure of a cold bluish light, may thirty or forty feet high standing behind me swinging a sword. So I mentioned this to a friend that is more into this kind of thing and she said it was Archangel Michael.

What is that to me? I don't know. I know there is some kind of archetypal resonance. Possibly something deep in me possible a connection to something beyond me and maybe a bit of both.

Norbu

Norbu, thank you for your sharing, and no I would not laugh...

This will make you laugh

When I asked on here on how to meet my guides, I was told to just ask, so I did. I was in my room and what followed was that I got scared. I decided not to persist with this because I felt the need to block, but I knew that I couldn't just leave it.

So, I decided to ask where I felt most comfortable, and for me that was outside when I was walking.

When I got back home after the first moment of a communication, I sat on the settee and thought and thought,

and that night as I looked out at the dark sky, I realised that the sky was different to that time of communication and so how could it happen again... because I couldn't keep going back to the same hill and when the sky is blue and waiting to see what might happen...

and I thought of the times when I am out and not walking,
of when I can't walk because it is dark,
of when I might not be able to be out and walking,
and I thought, it can't be like this, that there can only be communication when the sky is blue and when I am out on a walk....
that isn't logical that there has to be certain conditions for communication....

because how can it be fair, if it has to be on a hillside when the sky is blue?

And, I thought of when I am old and will not be able to walk the same, and I thought, this has to be fair and not have conditions...

And, I felt comforted, and I began to experience Love,
whilst doing the washing up,
whilst listening to the radio,
and so on, in the living,
and then I began to learn that I could sit quietly and not be scared,
and the discovery that I could feel Love and breathe it in.

It is this surprise that is the most surprising, that there can be a balance of quiet and in the living and it doesn't need to be a stop/ start thing but can be an anyway it happens thing.

Norbu, this is a very good question...

What is that to me?

For me, I would have to say, it is that Love can be in the living.

Hi Flit,

For me, I would have to say, it is that Love can be in the living.

But this is not dependent on anything at all. Maybe we have to practice being open to it. Maybe we have to watch against fears and judgements, and wants and disappointments from demanding our attention. But do we need spiritual beings to assist us be conscious of this "Love?"

Norbu

Hi Flit,

But this is not dependent on anything at all. Maybe we have to practice being open to it. Maybe we have to watch against fears and judgements, and wants and disappointments from demanding our attention. But do we need spiritual beings to assist us be conscious of this "Love?"

Norbu

You might as well ask - do we need books, teachers, gurus? Our ego, our 'small mind' needs such things until we can move beyond the small mind into greater understanding.

But do we need spiritual beings to assist us be conscious of this "Love?"

Yes!

It could be said, that it was like being brought back to life by the energy of Love.

And, what is an authentic spiritual being but the energy of Love-without-conditions?

You might as well ask - do we need books, teachers, gurus? Our ego, our 'small mind' needs such things until we can move beyond the small mind into greater understanding.

I came across this beautiful imagery in Mary Baker Eddy's autobiography today and thought of your words above Moonfeather:

"... Of this also rest assured, that books and teaching are but a ladder let down from the heaven of Truth and Love, upon which angelic thoughts ascend and descend, bearing on their pinions of light the Christ-spirit." (Retrospection and Introspection 85)

Love and peace,

Judy

"... Of this also rest assured, that books and teaching are but a ladder let down from the heaven of Truth and Love, upon which angelic thoughts ascend and descend, bearing on their pinions of light the Christ-spirit." (Retrospection and Introspection 85)

Nice one, Judy. 🙂

It could be said, that it was like being brought back to life by the energy of Love.

And, what is an authentic spiritual being but the energy of Love-without-conditions?

Exactly, Flit!! I always feel that the 'higher' the vibration, the purer the acceptance and love, like the laughter of a baby. 🙂