"Egoism" stands between man and god.?

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Interesting post & I look forward to reading the responses:)

I'm certainly not a book reader or have any indepth knowledge on ego's & spirituality ect but to me I feel that 'ego' is a part of everyone, like it or not& I feel that it's important to undersatnd your ego, because if you can understand it you can learn to control it rather then have it control you or shape the person you are, also, in some ways I feel you need to keep a check on it always...does that make sense?..although please understand..I'm not giving answers, just airing my thoughts;)

Love
Amy
xx

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Oohh sacrel, here we go again!

Well, what I've been taught is that ego is indeed at the root of all our problems and yes we need to 'kill' it if we are to progress spiritually. The nature of the beast however (I'm talking about the ego here) is that it doesn't give up without a fight. It certainly doesn't want to be killed - it just loves being in control and feeding us with all our 'me me me' drama. So a big big thing is to be able to identify when your ego is in control, because in most of us, certainly in people who are unaware of it, it rules the roost most of the time. And even when you've learned to identify it and sometimes to operate for short periods of time without its help, there usually arises some event or occasion which will switch it on again. We are so very accustomed to running on the same rails all the time.
So we have to be alert, aware and vigilant. And purposeful. A book I thoroughly recommend which spells it all out far better than I can is 'A new earth' by Eckhart Tolle.

BTW I think it was an ego that coined the term 'a healthy ego':D:D:D

With love
Sunanda xxx

PS This topic could run and run because there are going to be loads of people who don't agree with what I've said.

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

I think there are several things you could identity as being "the most important thing on the spiritual Path" but this is one of them and it maybe sums up all others.

First, it's crucial to get definitions right about what is meant by the word, spiritually. It isn't the ego of Freud, for example. It isn't someone who's a huge big-head. In Theosophy "Ego" means the Higher Self! So the way ego is usually used spiritually or esoterically is to point to all and everything in us, large or minute, which are traits differing from the Divinity.

Therefore a person might say, "I am not egocentric; I have no ego". But they certainly do, since they are not yet fully God-Realised; they are still incarnating. Therefore ego can mean all the little things too: not to get obsessive about it, but we might watch sport or a soap rather than meditate, or in meditation we may reckon "we" are the doer and are pretty good at it. Or we may just lie in bed half an hour longer than the Higher Self in us would have us do, etc., etc.

But then - there are the big things too! [&:]

You ask if the ego causes stagnant periods in (my) life? Sure! The ego, manifesting in the past or the present, is responsible IMO for every imperfection in my self and life. I'd no longer be here on Earth, or it'd be my last incarnation now, if I had no ego.

One rider to this is that there is a "Divine Ego" or the Will of God acting through us. A God-Realised person can be strong, powerfully directed, successful, etc. Killing out the human ego doesn't make us weak and psychologically flabby, but it gets rid of the blockage preventing God's Power, Wisdom and Love from fully expressing through us ceaselessly.

V

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Interesting V.

I also looked up the definition for Ego in the dictionary.

1a. Self-esteem b. excessive self-esteem
2. In psychoanalytic theory, a part of te mind that encompasses memory and self-consciousness and mainly controls a persons behaviour and relations with reality.
3. The self, esp. as contrasted with another self or the world.

I find the 2nd definition interesting. To rid ourselves of this ego would be to eradicate our behaviour and our relationship with reality. Sounds very much like we would cease to exist in this reality. But perhaps that is what is meant by "finding God".

I have also heard it said before that we all have ego, and without it we would not have the drive or need to learn, and without learning we can not progress; therefore ego is important in our progression of life.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

This is very interesting, especially since I am currently waking up to my ego's deepest tricks, especially the one which currently holds me back from what I should be doing.

As Venetian said:

ORIGINAL: venetian
One rider to this is that there is a "Divine Ego" or the Will of God acting through us. A God-Realised person can be strong, powerfully directed, successful, etc. Killing out the human ego doesn't make us weak and psychologically flabby, but it gets rid of the blockage preventing God's Power, Wisdom and Love from fully expressing through us ceaselessly.

Something I am ruefully admitting to myself... lol. Yes, ego impedes progress in much subtler ways than you might expect. For all my life I have been aware of fighting 'myself'... perhaps I should term that... fighting my 'ego'?

So... the best way to deal with the human ego is through meditation, self-awareness and spiritual purpose? 🙂

BB
Moonfeather

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

"So we have to be alert, aware and vigilant".

I agree with Sunanda and thereis much I could say, but I don't need to be right! (Giggling now). I'll just quote the lovely - and loving - Amma

"To know the Self, one should starve the ego"

JA

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Jai Ma, Angel.

Amma is my teacher too.

Om namah Sivaya!

With love
Sunanda xxx

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Healing hugs to you, Sunanda and lots of love and laughter!

JA

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

funny that i've stumbled across this thread sacrel as for a while now i've become more and more aware of the need to master my own ego, as its voice has had a tendency to shout the loudest!!

at the moment i feel i am being taught the lesson of tolerance where my fuse has been short of late and also to react in a negative way whenever i am being challenged , and i am in an environment where this is happening more frequently than usual!

i would be inclined to say we all do need that ego in order to learn, but also learn how to master it so it dosen't dominate how we think, feel and act- either towards ourselves and others.

warm wishes- calla lily x

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

You know, i've found that once you can recognise and identify when your ego has the upper hand, you will be presented time after time with the opportunity to conquer it. And especially when you start thinking 'oh easy peasy I've got rid of my ego now'. You can bet your bottom dollar it will wriggle out of whatever room you've confined it in! The ego is super super clever and will trick you every time. I could give you loads of examples but I bet everyone can think of their own.

(OK, here's one of mine: a couple of years ago in India I was with a group of people who were talking about anger and how it arises and the need to simply witness it without identifying with it or being sucked into it. A friend of mine mentioned the local Post Office where the staff were often obstructive and told us of a falling out she'd had with one of them. Muggins here pipes up with'Oh they're really nice to me. I never have any problems.' Famous last words. the very next day I had to pick up a parcel at the Post Office but because it didn't have the same name as the one in my passport they wouldn't let me have it. And I lost it!!! Blew my top - was ranting and raving. Completely lost in egoic reaction. And not until the following day did I realise what had happened. Sneaky old ego!':D

With love
Sunanda xxx

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

i agree with you there sunada, as that is exactly what is happening to me at the moment![:@]

whenever i'm reacting negatively ( which is often thesedays!;)), at the same time i have a running commentary going through my head saying " what's the point in going off on one? listen to yourselfwoman!!"

the more i am trying to keep my feet on the ground, the more my ego wants to keep tripping me up !!

warm wishes- calla lily x

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

the more i am trying to keep my feet on the ground, the more my ego wants to keep tripping me up !!

EXACTLY!!! That's exactly what it does. It gets desperate because it knows you've seen through it and it feels very much under threat. It's been having a great time, running the show, thinking it's in control. Now you're standing up to it and it doesn't like it. Hang on in there.

If you see my mobile phone rant in General Discusssions you'll see that I've been having my own battle to keep my cool. And I did just what you said: I told myself to listen to myself...and remained calm...just!:D

Hang on in there.

With love
Sunanda xx

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

ORIGINAL: Energylz

Interesting V.

I also looked up the definition for Ego in the dictionary.

1a. Self-esteem b. excessive self-esteem
2. In psychoanalytic theory, a part of te mind that encompasses memory and self-consciousness and mainly controls a persons behaviour and relations with reality.
3. The self, esp. as contrasted with another self or the world.

I find the 2nd definition interesting. To rid ourselves of this ego would be to eradicate our behaviour and our relationship with reality. Sounds very much like we would cease to exist in this reality. But perhaps that is what is meant by "finding God".

Ceasing to exist as conscious beings is not finding God, no. IMO we never cease to be conscious, individual beings.

I'd have to look up my old psych books, but "2" isn't accurate on what Freud meant by ego. His 'ego' meant more than that (incorrect aspects) and his 'ego' has to be taken in the context of his whole theory or theories, which psychology largely doesn't take seriously these days.

Your "3" sounds more logical - but this ego is just the human self, and esoterically / spiritually speaking, the human ego is not permanent and is a kind of ilusion as it's ever-changing and certainly prone to error.

I have also heard it said before that we all have ego, and without it we would not have the drive or need to learn, and without learning we can not progress; therefore ego is important in our progression of life.

I fully agree. But this isn't your "2" or "3" above. This is the Will of the Higher Self, which is the REAL you and me, but is not the "I" we identify with down here. You see why in talking of the ego, precise definitions are essential? It has at least six different meanings, and when people are writing of different meanings they can confusedly talk at cross-purposes: "We do need the ego" / "We don't need the ego". 😀

The "I" down here has many lovely gleanings of the Higher Self or Ego (cap E) shining through, but is also distorted by the illusions referred to in world religions as the 'Fall' (in conciousness).

Inthe Bhagavad Gita the fact that we have an imperfect human ego that's not the real us, and also a Higher Ego which is the real us, is more perfectly expressed than I've seen it anywhere else. In English translation these two egos can be rendered in lower or upper-case "s" in "self":

Oh, let the self exalt itself, not sink itself below;
Self is the only friend of self, and self Self's only foe.
For self, when it subdues itself, befriends itself.
And so when it eludes self-conquest, is its own and only foe.

Mind you, I've realised over the years that it's not the "self" that's conquoring itself: the lower ego never will. It's the Higher Self coming through which displaces by increments the lower. How is this done? And why is it so hard? The problem is that we just have to keep at it but be patient. It's done in increments. Rome was not built in a day. 🙂

V

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Hi everyone,

What an interesting discussion!

I love the quote by Amma – “starve the ego” – Sunanda, I much prefer that to “kill” but in the end, it’s all the same thing! 🙂

ORIGINAL: venetian

Ceasing to exist as conscious beings is not finding God, no. IMO we never cease to be conscious, individual beings.

The "I" down here has many lovely gleanings of the Higher Self or Ego (cap E) shining through, but is also distorted by the illusions referred to in world religions as the 'Fall' (in conciousness).

In the Bhagavad Gita the fact that we have an imperfect human ego that's not the real us, and also a Higher Ego which is the real us, is more perfectly expressed than I've seen it anywhere else. In English translation these two egos can be rendered in lower or upper-case "s" in "self":

Oh, let the self exalt itself, not sink itself below;
Self is the only friend of self, and self Self's only foe.
For self, when it subdues itself, befriends itself.
And so when it eludes self-conquest, is its own and only foe.

Mind you, I've realised over the years that it's not the "self" that's conquoring itself: the lower ego never will. It's the Higher Self coming through which displaces by increments the lower. How is this done? And why is it so hard? The problem is that we just have to keep at it but be patient. It's done in increments. Rome was not built in a day. 🙂

V

Venetian, I so agree with all the above!

Mary Baker Eddy mentions Ego, ego (there is a difference as Venetian has pointed out) and Egoism and egotism (again there is a difference) 66 times in her writings. She put a capital “E” to the divine Ego, but when it pertains to our mortal sense of self, then it’s a lower case on. I thought you’d be interested in reading a smattering of her understanding of this subject:

The Ego
From various friends comes inquiry as to the meaning of a word employed in the foregoing colloquy.
There are two English words, often used as if they were synonyms, which really have a shade of difference between them.
An egotist is one who talks much of himself. Egotism implies vanity and self-conceit.
Egoism is a more philosophical word, signifying a passionate love of self, which doubts all existence except its own. An egoist, therefore, is one uncertain of everything except his own existence.
Applying these distinctions to evil and God, we shall find that evil is egotistic,-- boastful, but fleeing like a shadow at daybreak; while God is egoistic, knowing only His own all-presence, all-knowledge, all-power.
(Unity of Good p 57)

I, or EGO. Divine Principle; Spirit; Soul; incorporeal, unerring, immortal, and eternal Mind.
There is but one I, or Us, but one divine Principle, or Mind, governing all existence; man and woman unchanged forever in their individual characters, even as numbers which never blend with each other, though they are governed by one Principle. (Science and health p 588)

What is the Ego, whence its origin and what its destiny? The Ego-man is the reflection of the Ego-God; the Ego-man is the image and likeness of perfect Mind, Spirit, divine Principle.
The one Ego, the one Mind or Spirit called God, is infinite individuality, which supplies all form and comeliness and which reflects reality and divinity in individual spiritual man and things. (Science and Health 281)

Mortal existence is a dream; mortal existence has no real entity, but saith "It is I." Spirit is the Ego which never dreams, but understands all things; which never errs, and is ever conscious; which never believes, but knows; which is never born and never dies. Spiritual man is the likeness of this Ego. Man is not God, but like a ray of light which comes from the sun, man, the outcome of God, reflects God. (S&H 250)

What is the material ego, but the counterfeit of the spiritual? (Miscellaneou

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Thanks for the quotes, Judy.

Personally I'd never considered the difference between 'egoistic' and 'egotistic'. Once again, it shows how on this subject we have to be really precise as to the meaning of words, or what we each mean by a word. English is confusing - like any Western language, I think - when it comes to psychological matters or philosophical matters pertaining to selfhood. The Western mind has so rarely gone deeply into what selfhood is, that languages haven't evolved to cope with the various concepts and their subtleties.

Sanscrit, which I can't read or write but it's not hard to learn the meanings of its words when rendered in English, is far more useful. It doesn't have the problem we do where we have probably more than six quite different meanings for "Egoism". Sanscrit among other things is a language evolved or created in order to deeply discuss many levels of consciousness.

I see now BTW why Theosophy called the Higher Self, "Ego", after reading your quotes from MBE. It's quite logical. I suppose I shouldn't get too technical, but I will. :DTheosophy, and later forms of it such as I follow, recognise two Higher Selves. There's the Absolute and utmost Higher Self we have as an individual being: in Theosophy they called this the Monad and it equates with Hinduism's Atman. The "Ego" of Theosophy is actually a level of our Being 'between' the Atman / Monad and the human ego 'down here' that we think of now as "I". It became a rather confusing concept until rendered in pictorial form. Since the 1930s the "Ego" has in my movements been called "the Holy Christ Self".

Anyway, I could go on about that, but it's a bit off-topic! Just to confirm, anyway, relating back to the thread title, that IMO egoism does stand between man and God, because man should be an incarnation of God, unalloyed. It's the alloy of imperfection, the not-God part of us, which obviously acts as a cloud to cover over to the world and to ourselves the Glory of the Sun we truly are.

V

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Also, this was an emailed 'daily reading', or part of one, the other day, from the Divine Life Society, and is along the lines of our subject. Here, their "self" kind of means "Self". One other rider I'd give is that their use of the word "meditation" to me doesn't mean that it has to be some definite formal regime such as they practice. For Self-Realisation some formal and regular practice is necessary - otherwise we are the changeable self always impermanent - but it can be whatever our regular spiritual practice happens to be.

SELFREALISATION

There is no other duty for man except meditation on the self. Dismissing all else, one should establish oneself in the self. There remains nothing to be done or attained when the self is experienced. For that Brahman the immortal is before, behind, to the right and to the left and stretched forth above and below.

Brahman is all this. The real alone is an enduring being and this real is experienced through meditation coupled with knowledge. Whatever a man of purified mind makes clear in his mind, and whatever desires he desires, that he gets and that he fulfills. One should therefore have pure and perfect resolves.

The supreme self is experienced in the fourth state of consciousness. It is neither this nor that ­ it has no quality in particular and yet it is everything. It is peaceful, blessed and non­dual. It is the cessation of all phenomena. It is the atman that should be known and realised. That is the purpose of life. The liberated sage experiences that he is everything ­ the tree, the mountain, the sun. He is the food and the eater of the food. He is the knower, the knowledge and the known, in one. He is the whole universe in himself.
------------
I thought I'd quote that as I like the bit about "One should have pure and perfect resolves". It's easy to imagine - Giles hinted at this - that without ego we lose our being and become nothing. In fact we are a Divine Being, confusingly called the "self" in the quote above! - and this Being that we are has far more will-power and far more resolve than the lower ego could ever imagine! The Higher Self has a million projects it wants to accomplish; it can be doing twenty things at once! To conquor ego is not to end up sitting for the rest of one's life in the lotus position. ;)Each Ego will have its own resolves, but they will all work together, and they will not be unworldly projects: Egos or Higher Selves are usually very active in changing this physical/emotional realm, as we witness in people such as Gandhi, Jesus, and so forth.

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Original: Venetian
I'd have to look up my old psych books, but "2" isn't accurate on what Freud meant by ego. His 'ego' meant more than that (incorrect aspects) and his 'ego' has to be taken in the context of his whole theory or theories, which psychology largely doesn't take seriously these days.

I'll have to get in touch with Pengiun books then, cos the definition is straight out of their dictionary. 😀

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Put it this way then, Giles. ;)I'm resisting going to any book BTW, as I once knew Freud but forgot almost the lot! In your own quoted definition, his ego is "a part of the mind". Part. Freud was an armchair philosopher who made up theories from his own ideas only, and his 'ego' is one of several "parts" he divided what we'd call the self up into. In fact Freud perhaps had no concept of 'self'. We were to him biological machines with psychological 'parts'. Since he was an airmchair philosopher, he changed his mind over time and there are three different periods with three different sets of Freudian theory of what the mind is divided up into!

V

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

ORIGINAL: sunanda

EXACTLY!!! That's exactly what it does. It gets desperate because it knows you've seen through it and it feels very much under threat. It's been having a great time, running the show, thinking it's in control. Now you're standing up to it and it doesn't like it. Hang on in there.

thanks for your words of wisdom sunada [sm=1kis.gif], for me it is hard as the more i resist, the more challenging our mate the ego gets!![:@]

i can empathise fully with your mobile phone rant as that's a pet hate of mine, companies that make you go through hoop after blooming hoop- fingers crossed for you that it all gets resolved and that O2 remimburses you in some way for all their incompetence!

in regard of the psychological theory of the ego, i have found a quote from an old study pack which states- ..." the ego considers reality, considers what is safe, but is not really concerned with the ethical question of right or wrong"

another theory that springs to mind and is more related to the question of the ego standing in the way between man and god is that last year, i was being taught some taster sessions of a religion ( mormonism) and i was told that once i had opened up and become receptive to heavenly father, then expect things to happen that would tempt me into becoming distracted and looking back, i suppose this could be the ego going into overdrive as opposed to the work of satan.

warm wishes- calla lily x

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Well, I've dug out my "Oxford companion to the Mind" (great book) and it has quite a few references to ego, but specifically a small section on Ego and Super-Ego which I'll reproduce here...

Sigmund Freud supposed that three components make up the psychic structure: the id, the ego, and the super-ego. The id represents instincts and innate needs. The super ego, manifest in conscience, shame, and guilt, is the agency by which the influence of parents and others is prolonged. Their judgements and prohibitions are internalized by thge process of introjection in early childhool before the child is able to quesiton them. The ego has been differentiated from the id through the influence of the external world, to whose demands it adapts. In so adapting it has to reconcile the forces of the id and super-ego in such a way as to mamimize pleasure and minimize unpleasure. The development of ego-psychology as a brach of psychoanalysis, whcih reflected a shift of interest from the earlier instinct theory to the adaptive functions of the ego, in relation to other persons especially, facilitated some rapprochement between psychoanalysts and psychology.

Wow, that's a lot to try and take in, and with my flu and headache at the minute, I'm not even going to try and think about it.

Apart from the psycho ego definition, I think we generally treat the ego as a measure of self-esteem, as was defined elsewhere. I also think that because it is a measure of self esteem, it's not wrong to have an ego, but it's wrong to "inflate" the ego to a level where our esteem exceeds that to which we are truly in touch with. To have no self esteem is to make us feel we are not worthy; to have to much is to make us believe we are better. The trick, I believe, is to have the right amount of ego so that we recognise all are equal and we are all one in the universe.

Love and Reiki Hugs

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Just popping in to post the following as I have been 'clearing the clutter' of my overloaded and old files.I found it today andI don't know where it came from or who it is by - sorry!

The Ego and the Soul
Ego. It is ego that stops us really committing. The ego telling us "This is not good enough for me. I deserve better than this. They don't deserve me, I am too good for them."
It's the ego that wants to keep "me" apart from "us". To never truly be one of "them". Never truly committed because in this way the ego can keep control of the situation. Its difficult to control things in a group, its much easier when you are on your own. In this way the ego keeps a tight grip on its reality.

The soul rejoices in union with others. The soul has no need to feel special for the soul knows that we are all related, we are all one. Nobody is any more special than anybody else, and the soul can rejoice in this truth. The petty ego, however, fights against this, seeking to compare. Seeking a way to be superior.This is not the soul. This is not the way of the soul.

All the time that the ego is king, you are a slave.

Once the soul is king, you are free. For only the soul truly can guide. Only the soul truly loves.

The ego has no love. The ego does not understand love,

The soul is based in love, but this love is not a selfish love. This is an unselfish love, an unselfish perspective, a group perspective.

Where the ego is petty, the soul is magnanimous.

Where the ego is mean, the soul is generous.

Where the ego hoards and keeps for itself, the soul gives and gives and gives.

Where the ego believes in lack, the soul believes in plenty. For the soul knows that in Truth, there is no lack at all. There is only abundance. There's enough to go around. There is plenty.

Where the ego promotes control by fear, the soul promotes freedom in love.

Where the ego seeks separation, the soul seeks unity.

So stop and reflect throughout the day. "Is this idea, this decision, this fear, soul based or ego based?" If you find that it is ego based, ask yourself "Now then, what would my soul want in this situation?" And wait for an answer. Then compare the two. Which feels right, which feels better? When I say 'feel', I mean feel it in your body, usually in your solar plexus. Which feels right for me?

Then will we know joy and bliss. Then will we know God.

In this way, with practise, you allow your soul to guide you.

In this way you take small steps, ever closer, to becoming a blended being, a sovereign being, a soul-merged being.

In this way you step closer to God, and to who you really are.

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

ORIGINAL: Energylz

Apart from the psycho ego definition, I think we generally treat the ego as a measure of self-esteem, as was defined elsewhere. I also think that because it is a measure of self esteem, it's not wrong to have an ego, but it's wrong to "inflate" the ego to a level where our esteem exceeds that to which we are truly in touch with. To have no self esteem is to make us feel we are not worthy; to have to much is to make us believe we are better. The trick, I believe, is to have the right amount of ego so that we recognise all are equal and we are all one in the universe.

:DThis all just goes to show, again, the necessity for defining what we mean by ego. ;)Freud's concept of ego isn't IMO what the first post is about at all. To me, as in the Gita quote I quoted on self, the first post is about ego in the sense of the imperfect, limited, apart-from-God self. The part of self that isn't associated with God (by whatever name). So that's how I take the discussion, you see, and not as one on psychology or on Freudianism. It's a different meaning of the word.

For example, the psychoanalytic 'ego' term isn't IMHO what JOYFUL ANGEL is then posting about afterward.

I see that it's all to do with what we mean by the word. I totally agree with you in that paragraph, Giles: you are talking about self-worth being just right, not being inflated and not feeling unworthy. Psychologically in that sense of 'ego', what you write is true and the healthy way to be.

But the spiritual / esoteric 'ego' such as all the saints and sages have had to wrestle with - me too, Sunanda by the sound of it, and everyone frankly who starts to see it and not want it - that's what has to be killed out or starved or whatever. ;)It's a false 'you' and not the real 'you'. You don't want it in an inflated or deflated form, and there is no right balance of it! It's gotta go in the end. It's actually an imposter of WHAT you really are. Battle commences when a lot of what you really are starts to inform your consciousness. 'Me' down here - the concept of "I" or the entirety of our consciousness down here becomes a kind of 'battleground', and the person involved is quite aware of that. There's more than one element fighting to take control: as if two 'selves' are fighting for control of mind, emotions and body. And it's nothing to do with psychoanalysis! ;)For example, it's no the id fighting the super-ego for control of the ego: Freud was pure theory, and had no spiritual content. The id is not the ego as meant spiritually, honest.

One could find a hundred quotes from people going through this, but without my looking up the precise words, in one of his Epistles St. Paul writes something like: "That which I would, I do not; and that which I would not, I do." The higher part of himself knows there are things he should do, but then he finds he hasn't done them - ego didn't want to. The things he knows in his higher self that he shouldn't do, he finds he's done - ego wanted it (not just in the sense of egocentricity, but in all imperfect or wrong thoughts, words and deeds which God-in-us wouldn't do).

In other words, here, the "I" has both higher and 'lower' impulses, and he's struggling to kill out the lower. The lower ones come from the ego, which is separating him from full, ceaseless communion with God / Divinity.

I know a great saint, and while he's very humble about it, everyone can see his vast spiritual accomplishment. When asked how he succeeded in becoming what he has, he replied, "I made a million right decisions". In other words, each time a situation presented itself, there was a decision there since he could react either as the Higher Self prompted, or go along with the promptings of the ego (lower self). He chose to embody the Higher a million times, and thus "starved away" the ego 'til it didn't exist. He thus became his Higher Self fully embodied.

V
Edited as per usual for typos

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Hope you all don't mind if I jump right into this...

First off I do not agree that sanskrit has more language available to descibe anything. Language is a tool of the mind and as such will be used to it's full potential. So while sanskrit may talk about the ego in the most subtle ways I think the Westerm view is much more appropraite in saying that ego in any way, shape, or form is still ego. Any variation is a way to deceive yourself. Anyone on this forum considering these concepts must assuredly be in the flesh and therefore thinks in terms of the ego. The body itself is the product of separation, or the ego. Whatever way you want to look at your spiritual progression the fact remains that as long as there is somewhere to go you are in the ego. God is everywhere so the ego makes up places for us to be (like earth for example). The ego also enjoys concepts that are very alien to God (like death (or sickness) as opposed to Life). So anyone reading this are thinking using the ego as their guide. The Holy Spirit is a much better guide in my opinion. But that's just me.

The way to God is to give up our 'smaller' selves. This means that everything you know is forfeit. Everything. Is anyone really ready for that? Or do you prefer your spiritual progression (of obscurity) to the all encompassing Love of God?

~Peace

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Hi eruspirit,

May I give my perspective on a couple of concepts there?

ORIGINAL: erospirit

I think the Westerm view is much more appropraite in saying that ego in any way, shape, or form is still ego. Any variation is a way to deceive yourself.

I'm not sure I'd call that a Western concept! A global one for all spirituality maybe. It's certainly understood in the East, and probably better there.

Freud's concept of ego maybe needed airing here, but IMO is ultimately off-topic. If the same word is used for completely different things, how can that word used in any way still be one thing (ego in this case)? For example, we have the term, "PC". Now, that can mean personal computer, politically correct or, over here, police constable. Evidently 'PC' isn't always the same thing, and there's a need to distinguish the different meanings. It's the same with the word 'ego'. What ego means in the spiritual sense isn't what Freud meant at all: Freud's was a merelytheoretical - even hypothetical -creation (with no scientific basis for his model), but his ego would in his theory be forever, impossible to be rid of, and even necessary to be a human being. And Theosophy's "Ego" means Higher Self! So there is IMO a need to get to grips with the different meanings, though I do understand you are only talking probably about the spiritual use of the word.

The way to God is to give up our 'smaller' selves. This means that everything you know is forfeit. Everything. Is anyone really ready for that? Or do you prefer your spiritual progression (of obscurity) to the all encompassing Love of God?

If by "everything you know is forfeit" you mean that all that we are and all that we know definitely goes into the flame, that doesn't equate with my understanding - but it may not be what you meant. 😉

That which we think of as "me" down here isn't all the ego or lower self. It's an admixture of the Higher and the lower. There's one heck of a lot of the Higher Self (by whatever term) 'coming through'. We are already a considerable outpicturing of the Higher. None of us would be on this thread if God-in-us were not interested in spiritual matters. The ego sure isn't! 😀

You may agree with that, but it's worth pointing out that we don't - IMHO - disappear if we embody Divinity fully. Individuality is retained. We already embody and are quite a bit of the Good. The spiritualprocess is like putting ore into a furnace: the dross is burned off and goes, but the gold we already have in us down here is retained (and added to!). If the goal of life, or one goal of life,is to become our Higher Selves, we cannot become something we completely aren't right now. We can only become something we already really are. Because we are It, some of it shines through us all each day.

V

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

hi all, just a little thought...................

Imagine for a moment that you are dropping your identification with the ego, which is what you think you are - your personality. What will happen then? Suddenly you have no personality, but yet you are alive and conscious.

Suddenly all the thoughts, feelings and emotions associated with who you think you are go away. Is this possible?
You can certainly be very much alive, conscious and active, without putting any label on yourself. You don't have to be this or that in order to exist.

It is possible to wake up from the identification with the ego. This is called spiritual awakening. You stop limiting yourself to a particular form, set of thoughts and point of view. Your consciousness extends beyond the body's form, and you experience a sort of "formless consciousness". You go on acting and functioning as usual, but your consciousness functions on a "higher" plane.

What do you gain by this? By rising above the ego, you rise above life's problems. They will probably still be there, and you have to deal with them and solve them, but your consciousness will be in a different dimension. You will be happier, calm and strong. You will gain real peace of mind.

Rising above the ego makes you free from limited ways of thinking. It frees you from the shackles of your mind. You will not be swirled into petty desires, misunderstandings and conflicts, and will be able to deal much better with whatever you encounter on your way. You will "remember" who you are, and that putting on the mask of the ego is only a play, and that you are not the character played, but only acting the character.

How To Rise Above The Ego

Each day put aside some ten to fifteen minute to be alone and meditate. Sit comfortably, take a few slow breaths and relax your body.For a moment let your mind follow whatever thoughts and feelings pop up, then stop them and ask yourself:
Are these thoughts and feelings me?
Are these thoughts and feelings mine?
Do I need them?
Do they add anything to my life?
Why do they come?
Where do they come from?
Why do I think or feel them?
Who is it that is thinking them?
Who is it that is watching these thoughts and feelings?

Don't try to find mental solutions or reasons. Just ask the questions, and wait for the answer to come from inside you. Don't analyze the answers. Just let them come and be aware of them.

Meditate in this way each day at least once. After you get used to this meditation, you can ask yourself these questions during the day, whenever you have some time. You can use any time when you are not occupied, such as walking, waiting or traveling in a train or bus.

While asking yourself these questions, pay special attention to the state of your consciousness. Do these questions make you more aware of your consciousness, and in what way? If you continue, there will come a time when "a new" kind of consciousness will arise. Try to stay in this "new consciousness' and fix your awareness on it whenever you remember.

This will develop inner silence. If you can maintain this silence of the mind, you will experience the consciousness beyond the ego.

This is an adapted form of what Sri Ramana Maharshi, the great Indian sage has taught. This is the self-inquiry leading to the realization of the Self.

Might be interesting..........:eek:;)

blessings

sacrel[sm=nature-smiley-008.gif]

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Thank you for your words, Sacrel... this is so pertinant to me right now! 😀 The other day there my spirit mentors gave me a message which had my ego going ballistic! Such a tantrum, you would not believe. And when I got a chance to go deeper, there was the love and true connection I long for, which ego takes me further from...

I know now that it is frightened of the basic question presented: remove all your influences... what remains? Ego would hold that there is nothing, an empty space.
How foolish and fear-full of me to believe that.

Blessings
Moonfeather

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Thanks the for the wonderful words sacral and Moonfeather.

I think that the ego is very interested in spirituality. The Old Testament has many examples of ego based thought that only serve to engender a fear of God. The ego's very exisitence depends on us not looking within and finding the truth. And it never ceases to confuse what we find. Look at what Moonfeather states about this:

ORIGINAL: Moonfeather
The other day there my spirit mentors gave me a message which had my ego going ballistic! Such a tantrum, you would not believe. And when I got a chance to go deeper, there was the love and true connection I long for, which ego takes me further from...

If God created the ego it would always lead us directly to Him, but it does not. In fact it does the very opposite. To suggest that the ego stands in between man and God is in my opinion stating the question somewhat improperly and is a good example of the ego at work in our spiritual thinking. The very question seeks to establish the ego as fact and guides us to conclude that humanity without the ego is possible. The ego is not in between us and God. It is far more deceiving than that. The ego is our replacement for God. It is our way of creating creating ourselves by projecting a god of our own image. Man is an illusion, an identity problem. The ego is the thought that makes the body real. It is the physical manifestation of the perspecitve that says "I am me, and you are you." It is an attempt to be alone in the universe apart from our Creator. In the bible it says that Heaven and earth shall pass away. To me this means that they will not continue to exist as separate states of consciousness. We all protect and defend what we believe is real. The egocentric will always protect their temporal personalities and associated experiences (the body, the world, spiritual constructs, etc) because this is the realm of the ego. This is why the thought of Heaven on earth is so appealing to the ego. This is also why the ego freaks out when we breach its limitations and get a glimpse of God.

I mentioned before (in another post) that in the bible it stated that Adam fell into a deep sleep yet no reference is made to his awakening. When we sleep we dream and then anything is possible. But the truth is obvious only when we are fully awakened. This strange twilight of our awakening is still but a dream. This dream is our spiritual progression enacted in the body where we seem to be trapped and apart from God. It is an individual journey that we all take alone. The goal is God and the realization is that we were never alone. This is the same as saying that the ego (on whatever level you wish to perceive it on) does not exist. The ego is a confusion of identity. Yet God knows who we are. God alone is not conflicted in this because God established our reality as Spirit forever. This is why we must look within to find the Truth. In the presence of God the ego cannot exist and it fears this but does not understand it. This fear is the basis for all apocolyptic thought. The ego feels gravely threatend by God and while we associate with the ego God seems to be a destructive force that will strip of us our identity (ultimately through death). While I do not believe we will disappear when we achieve Higher consciousness I do think that this is how it must appear to the ego because to the ego what is beyond physical sight does not exist, and what is expanded beyond the ego's limited awareness is meaningless to it. To accept the ego as our identity is to be alone. Yet when Jesus said that he was One with the Father I think it was meant quite literally.

The ego is to humanity what the Spirit is to God.

~Peace

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

Hi erospirit,

There are some deep and challenging concepts in your post. On this:

ORIGINAL: erospirit

I think that the ego is very interested in spirituality. The Old Testament has many examples of ego based thought that only serve to engender a fear of God.

... Yes, indeed. It's a theme that has cropped up many times on HP (these forums), and also is a theme the New Age with a fair amount of accuracy flings at organised religion. What I'm thinking of is not so much spirituality - which I usually take to mean genuine spirituality - but when it gets organised (which IMO it often does have to) such as in 'religions'. Whenever spirituality hits time and space and becomes more than one person there emerges the politics of "Who shall lead? Who shall bear the seal of authority?" And many times by watering down or de-spiritualising a religion, the multiple egos successfully take what would for them be the spiritual sting out of the spiritual endeavour. Very clever.

I also agreed with much, muchmore in your post.

I didn't agree with the idea that, if I understood right, matter is somehow wrong and shouldn't be, and neither should physical bodies. But you've already - without meaning to :D- laid an apparent trap for me by writing that the attempt to maintain that the body is OK, or that Heaven should arrive on Earth, is also the ego at work. I and many others do believe these things, but have it as a wonderful and glorious (IMHO) spiritual concept.

So I don't think you are in any way writing from ego, and neither am I, except insofar as little bits may get through if we are not wholly perfect!

The very question seeks to establish the ego as fact and guides us to conclude that humanity without the ego is possible. <snip> Man is an illusion, an identity problem. The ego is the thought that makes the body real.

You see, most people I know on the spiritual Path in various forms or religions or practices believe that humanity without the ego is possible. I'd say Jesus, for example, embodied as a man and had no imperfect ego, as a wayshower. There could be, and perhaps in the unseen far past have been, entire civilisations of Christs, walking in matter.

We have a body now, and if we have an ego we can by increments be rid of that ego. What we'd have then, for the rest of that embodiment, is a human being in a body, but with no ego. A Christed being, as I'd call it.

I don't know if you mean it literally that ego creates the physical body? This is a path some elements of this or that religion have gone down, this belief that matter is 'evil' - the toal renunciation of the body and of materiality. In every example I can think of offhand, it's led to grief, because matter is given to us to master, by God. If we renounce matter and the body ... in various strands of practice, chiefly in the past and not the present, we've had people literally whipping the body into submission (or trying to -I doubt it works), or the asceticism of the one who'd sit in the lotus posture in a cave for an incarnation, while people starve and need that one's help and wisdom outside. (Their material needs don't matter - only spirit.)

Please understand I'm not saying that you wrote or meant all this! ;)- just that if I understood you on matter and the body, past record seems to show it turns into a dangerous path for groups of people to tread.

In the bible it says that Heaven and earth shall pass away. To me this means that they will not continue to exist as separate states of consciousness.

I think "heaven and earth shall pass away" is taken out of context here? But I usually refrain from picking up a Bible to check! I think I'm right in saying it's not "shall" but "may", andthat it's not a statement on cosmology, but a public speaker's device. The full sentence as I recall is, "Heaven and earth may pass away, but these words shall not pass away." In other words,

RE: "Egoism" stands between man and god.?

hello all

i would like to say i agree wholeheartedly with your last post Venetian, especially:-

"We are here to spiritualise matter, not because the ego wants to, but because it is the Divine intent "from the Beginning". Ultimately we are acting on behalf of God: God wants to master matter through us."

although, i probably wouldn't use the word 'master' matter - i see it that Godhead wants to experience the entire cosmic dance - warts and all, and delights in it all!!

sometimes i get bogged down by life, by the details, sometimes i shout at my kids, feel i can't cope with the mess and piles of papers etc. - but sometimes i remember to step back and watch it all like i am just an actor and all the world's a stage - and i can see my self caught in the drama of that moment, and i can laugh at my self...

to me that is a moment of trancending the ego (and generally i don't like the concept of trancending the physical stuff, i just mean trancending the ego drama of it all) - to me it doesn't really matter what ego you are talking about in that specific instance (although i do agree, it is good to know what we are talking about - V. i liked your PC example - very clear)...

and sometimes trying to be too spiritual can be a big ego trap, as can getting worked up about what someone else has said (posted) and having to get our points across (being too verbose..."listen to me, i'm right") - so i will end now before i fall into that trap!

we are all individuals incarnated in physical bodies, with personalities and 'egos' - trying to remember that we are all connected, we are all part of the one and we are all God...

love and positive vibrations
jess

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