Souls

Thank you Crowan - yes you have answered my question for the most part, but...

And sometimes the lost soul part is attached to the lost soul part of someone who is still alive but who is not my client. Then I have no way (usually) of getting the part back to the person who lost it. In these cases (or the occasions when it is not in the person’s best interests to get their soul back) I will take them to a safe place so that the part is easily retrievable later.

Do you mean that you can't get your client's soul part back because it's attached to someone else's, or that you can do that, but have to leave the other soul part because you don't have permission?

Thank you Crowan - yes you have answered my question for the most part, but...

Do you mean that you can't get your client's soul part back because it's attached to someone else's, or that you can do that, but have to leave the other soul part because you don't have permission?

Let's call the person who has asked for my help Mary. I go to find Mary's soul part and discover that her ex-husband, Peter, is attached to it in some way. (I'm not saying this is her fault or his, just that they are entangled.) Peter is still alive.

I can fetch Mary's soul part back.

I do not have permission from Peter to do anything. Nor can I get it back to him, in any case. (And this brings up the whole question of distance soul retrieval - which I don't do.) However, I don't want to leave Peter's soul just wandering, lost. So I will take it to a safe place - usually near the Land of the Dead, so that the next time he gets to the Land of the Dead, his soul part will be waiting for him.

If, however, Peter has died since the divorce, then I will look for the rest of his soul and take all the soul to the Land of the Dead, where it can be completely healed before rebirth.

Occasionally Peter may be so damaged that he will need very deep healing before being able to move into the Land of the Dead. Then I might take him to another place - usually 'the Light' or 'the Void' - both places of healing. But that is rare.

That's perfectly clear now, thank you. In fact, I've started to become so interested in Shamanism I may order your book (having read your reply to Jeannie in the previous thread), although I have no aspirations to take that path myself. 🙂

What a load of rubbish !!

I once went to a Shamanic practitioner who told me I had had a soul part "stolen" when I was a child by a man that I knew. She said that such people fly around and steal soul parts.. as if.. !

At the time, I became so paranoid that that man, and also that other people had the power to psychically affect me. I was so worried that I went to the doctor. ..the result was I was put on medication for paranoia/psychosis..

Needless to say I feel quite strongly about some of the things Shamanic Practitioners say that can be misleading and confusing for vulnerable/sensitive people..

Thankfully I currently have the insight to know a lot of it is absolute rubbish..

Any one else had similar experiences ?

As a postscript, Crowan, before you strike me down with lightening ! Despite the above, I have wanted to study to be a shamanic practitioner for many years. I have been advised against doing so by family, and my doctor. This worries me and is perhaps a source of my disgruntelment with some aspects of Shamansm....

What a load of rubbish !!

I once went to a Shamanic practitioner who told me I had had a soul part "stolen" when I was a child by a man that I knew. She said that such people fly around and steal soul parts.. as if.. !

At the time, I became so paranoid that that man, and also that other people had the power to psychically affect me. I was so worried that I went to the doctor. ..the result was I was put on medication for paranoia/psychosis..

Needless to say I feel quite strongly about some of the things Shamanic Practitioners say that can be misleading and confusing for vulnerable/sensitive people..

Thankfully I currently have the insight to know a lot of it is absolute rubbish..

Any one else had similar experiences ?

The vast majority of soul parts go, not because they are stolen, but because they cannot cope with what is happening. They go as a means of survival. In a shamanic culture they would be found and brought back quickly. The extreme effects we see in our society - depression, disconnection and so on - are largely because the soul part is often missing for years or even lifetimes.

Nevertheless, Sunshine, your story worries me rather. Had you gone to the practitioner for help? Because, if not, what right had she to say anything? If you had done so, did she help?

Saying that 'such people fly around and steal soul parts' makes it sound as if this is common. I have never come across this. I can't imagine what he would do with the parts, nor how he would benefit from it. But humans are complicated and damaged individuals will damage others. Overall though, it sounds like an (unsucessful) attempt to impress you!

I certainly wouldn't strike you down with lightning or anything else - for a start, I have very definite views about weather-working!

What is your worry about shamanism? And, if you don't believe in the shamanic view of soul-loss, why would you want to study it? (Don't be put off by family or doctors unless they have practical experience of it themselves.)

It is not the right path for everyone. But for those who do take to it, it is the most wonderful home-coming.

Thanks Crowan,

I think that Shamanic Journeys can perhaps be a good way to gain insight in to different situations..

I'm not sure about soul parts going missing etc though..

I did go to the Shamanic practitioner for help.. and ended up a bit confused !

I suppose I worry about Shamanism because it could be a cause of me losing my delicate grip on reality !

However, I can relate to what you say about it being a homecoming..

I would like to train to use the Shamanic Journey as a healing tool, but am not sure about some of the less definate aspects of Shamanism that come along with that..

Best Wishes..

The vast majority of soul parts go, not because they are stolen, but because they cannot cope with what is happening. They go as a means of survival. In a shamanic culture they would be found and brought back quickly. The extreme effects we see in our society - depression, disconnection and so on - are largely because the soul part is often missing for years or even lifetimes.

Are you saying then, Crowan, that these soul parts can only be retrieved by a Shaman? Is there no other way? There must be many, many people who have never even heard of Shamanism, yet parts of their souls have gone. It all seems a bit unbalanced....

There again, feel free to ignore my question. Sometimes it seems that esoteric discussions take precedence over genuine sharing of information on this site.

Hi Guy's .

Some may relate to living for another .

What I mean Is that at times one may have more of a focus on a partner for example or a family member / soul mate perhaps than their Individual self .

Some Individuals allow another to control you and you can become a shadow of your true expression .

I know that this aspect of losing part of ones soul Is not what Crowan suggests In shamanic terms but In a way when one Is fragmented and not centered and Is giving their power away or It Is taken from them It Is like a part of there soul Is missing from their life experience .

Just another angle on this - to add to the pot .

x dazzle x

You can do this your self - Villoldo has a good book on soul retrieval and it will guide you through it.
It is a well worthwhile process.

chris

Are you saying then, Crowan, that these soul parts can only be retrieved by a Shaman? Is there no other way? There must be many, many people who have never even heard of Shamanism, yet parts of their souls have gone. It all seems a bit unbalanced....

Thanks, Chris, I hadn't realised you could DIY 🙂

You can do this your self - Villoldo has a good book on soul retrieval and it will guide you through it.
It is a well worthwhile process.

chris

Go carefully with this - I've dealt with clients who have tried to do it themselves. It can only work if the soul part has not gone very far and has not gone for a good reason (both rare).

Remember, in the vast majority of cases, you are the person that the soul art is leaving. Soul loss starts as a survival technique. At best, doing a soul retrieval for yourself doesn't work. At worst it will make things worse. Self-soul retrieval is not a shamanic practice.

Are you saying then, Crowan, that these soul parts can only be retrieved by a Shaman? Is there no other way? There must be many, many people who have never even heard of Shamanism, yet parts of their souls have gone. It all seems a bit unbalanced....

Sorry, Kiga - I've been away from home for a few days.

Essentially, yes. The vast majority of people in our society are sufferring from soul loss (which goes a long way to explaining some of the things that happen in it). I have heard the spirits refer to this situation as a "tragic epidemic".

Most people, however, get through life despite this - functioning on 50% of their power, or thereabouts.

Thanks Crowan,

I think that Shamanic Journeys can perhaps be a good way to gain insight in to different situations..

I'm not sure about soul parts going missing etc though..

I did go to the Shamanic practitioner for help.. and ended up a bit confused !

I suppose I worry about Shamanism because it could be a cause of me losing my delicate grip on reality !

However, I can relate to what you say about it being a homecoming..

I would like to train to use the Shamanic Journey as a healing tool, but am not sure about some of the less definate aspects of Shamanism that come along with that..

Best Wishes..

I really can't see the point of learning shamanism if you don't accept some of the most basic teaching. I know that some people use the journeying technique for healing themselves, but it can't be used without communication with spirit helpers. What would you do if your spirits said that you needed a soul retrieval? If you don't want to believe in soul-loss, why would you put yourself into a situation where you might have to deal with it?

By "less definate aspects" do you mean only soul loss? Are are there other aspects that you are not sure of?

I don't want to scare you, but shamanism can be dangerous. However, that side of it would not have to be faced in an Introductory workshop. Nor should you have to in a consultation with a good practitioner. May I be so bold as to say that, in my opinion, any practitioner who left you so distressed was not a good practitioner.

Some Individuals allow another to control you and you can become a shadow of your true expression .

I know that this aspect of losing part of ones soul Is not what Crowan suggests In shamanic terms but In a way when one Is fragmented and not centered and Is giving their power away or It Is taken from them It Is like a part of there soul Is missing from their life experience .

This situation is, in fact, likely to lead to actual soul loss. Or at least power loss. Part of the reason that soul loss is not dealt with is that it is not recognised as such.

I find this subject fascinating, but am at a loss to understand why souls aren't more robust. Surely they should be in it for the long haul? After all, most of us have some trauma in our lives, and surely our souls should be helping us through these times, not flying off at the first sign of trouble.

Any thoughts, anyone?

I find this subject fascinating, but am at a loss to understand why souls aren't more robust. Surely they should be in it for the long haul? After all, most of us have some trauma in our lives, and surely our souls should be helping us through these times, not flying off at the first sign of trouble.

When I read this, I had to smile because several times, when talking to a soul part, I have thought exactly the same!

However, during trauma, souls go for a specific reason. They take with them some of the pain and fear. Imagine for a moment that you are in a physically traumatic situation - these days and in our culture, maybe a car crash. In other places/times maybe an attack by an animal? - the part that cannot survive leaves. This means that the part that is left has a little less pain, a little less fear and may, as a result, survive until help arrives. Remember that we first developed these skills at a time when most (if not all) spirituality was shamanic. The shaman would have known exactly where to find the soul part because the soul part would know exactly where to go.
Now, our souls don't know where to go. We are not taught, in our culture, that soul parts will go, for example, to the Land of the Dead or some other specified place. We just get lost. (The same happens when we die.)
A classic soul loss situation in our culture is sexual abuse. The part that cannot survive goes. This means that the part remaining can more easily cope ('More easily', not 'easily'). So the victim survives but at the cost of not being whole. And, because the part that is left can more easily cope with abuse, it is more likely to fall into the roles of either victim or perpetrator. (Again, I say ‘more likely to’ not ‘will’.)
The victim isn’t whole, isn’t complete, but is able to function.

The leaving of the soul part isn’t really the problem. The not getting it back as soon as the situation is remedied is a problem.

Now I see. I'd love to get my soul parts back - I'm sure I'm missing one or two. Maybe I'll try to track down a Shamanistic Healer in this area....

Thanks for your very clear explanation, Crowan.

Hi Crowan and Kiga,
“Go carefully with this - I've dealt with clients who have tried to do it themselves. It can only work if the soul part has not gone very far and has not gone for a good reason (both rare).” – I’m not sure about this because I have little experience – what I can say is that for me the experience was very valuable, I took my time and made sure that I completed each stage fully before moving on, and the result was interesting, intriguing and made a lot of sense. At no time did I feel any sense of fear or danger, indeed all those I met were gentle and helpful.
In terms of the ‘do it yourself’ aspect I do have a feeling that (if sensible) the best person to seek the lost parts, to do the soul retrieval may well be the person who has lost them, for this is basically a healing process, and who better to heal one than oneself. If the parts can be retrieved by the person who is missing them, then the reconciliation is not only complete, but is totally ‘visible’ – there is no coercion as all.
Souls are (as Crowan says) designed with this as a failsafe, it is actually this that makes them robust rather than fragile. I’m not certain of what the dangers might be of soul retrieval or becoming a shaman, but I would be interested to know.
love
chris

what I can say is that for me the experience was very valuable, I took my time and made sure that I completed each stage fully before moving on, and the result was interesting, intriguing and made a lot of sense. At no time did I feel any sense of fear or danger, indeed all those I met were gentle and helpful.

Before I answer, may I ask a couple of questions? Did you do this healing through a shamanic journey? And have you done much journeying?

In terms of the ‘do it yourself’ aspect I do have a feeling that (if sensible) the best person to seek the lost parts, to do the soul retrieval may well be the person who has lost them, for this is basically a healing process, and who better to heal one than oneself.

The soul part has left you, and is often not aware that time has passed. It is you it is running away from. Moreover, shamanism is not a self-help process. Asking for help is part of the healing. This idea that we should all be able to heal ourselves is borrowed from New Age thinking, whereas shamanism is very community orientated. Shamans in need of healing go to another shaman.

Also, in order to do a soul retrieval yourself, you would have to have the intention of retrieving your soul. This seems to me to be anticipating what needs doing, rather than asking the spirits about it. Did you check for intrusions before you did this?

How did you get the soul part into you? Because this is one of the problems with DIY soul retrieval - I've often found that a client has managed to call a soul part to nearby, but the soul part is still hovering around outside. Did you have a way of checking whether the soul part needed healing?

I’m not certain of what the dangers might be of soul retrieval or becoming a shaman, but I would be interested to know.

You have to deal with spirits who may have a very different agenda to yours. Some may wish to hurt you. A soul retrieval, done badly, will put the client in a worse position than before. An extraction, done badly, can make both the shaman and the client ill (to death, sometimes). Training to do shamanic healing takes time and committment.

I'm glad it went well for you. But it's not something I would recommend.

You have to deal with spirits who may have a very different agenda to yours. Some may wish to hurt you.

Why would they wish to do so? Do they "know" you, or do are they just malicious? As I've said, I find the whole idea of Shamanism fascinating, but wouldn't try anything on my own. I have a healthy respect for the unknown, and certainly take your advice seriously, Crowan.

Why would they wish to do so? Do they "know" you, or do are they just malicious? As I've said, I find the whole idea of Shamanism fascinating, but wouldn't try anything on my own. I have a healthy respect for the unknown, and certainly take your advice seriously, Crowan.

The best I can say is that some spirits' agendas are not the same as ours. Why do humans want to hurt each other? It's the same with spirits. Maybe they are hurting too much not to spread the hurt around, maybe they are damaged, maybe their beliefs are that we need to be hurt 'for our own good'.

We have our own spirit helpers. I trust mine implicitly. But I'd no more trust any old spirit than I would any person I met in the street. Many, maybe most, will be fine, but many won't be.

Yes, I've come across this before in discussions not specifically relating to Shamanism, about mischievous (or worse) spirits who should not be trusted. Do you know these instinctively when you've progressed far enough, or do you rely on your own spirits to tell you?

Yes, I've come across this before in discussions not specifically relating to Shamanism, about mischievous (or worse) spirits who should not be trusted. Do you know these instinctively when you've progressed far enough, or do you rely on your own spirits to tell you?

I would always rely on my own spirits to tell me.

I wouldn't say mischievious. I'd say damaged or hurt. But actually, I'd say that about people in this reality as well. Also, there are different factions in the spirit worlds as there are here. Some of them may consider that you are an enemy and therefore in the wrong. (I wouldn't consider them enemies, though.)

I would always rely on my own spirits to tell me.

I wouldn't say mischievious. I'd say damaged or hurt. But actually, I'd say that about people in this reality as well. Also, there are different factions in the spirit worlds as there are here. Some of them may consider that you are an enemy and therefore in the wrong. (I wouldn't consider them enemies, though.)

Thank you. Food for thought.

Hi Crowan,
“Did you do this healing through a shamanic journey? And have you done much journeying?” – well in a way I suppose – I went to look up the ‘definition’ of journeying and to that part I think the answer is yes – I do journeying, and I would say I have done a fair bit. The process I followed was from Alberto Villoldo’s ‘Mending the past and healing the future with soul retrieval’, it followed nicely many of the aspects from my munay ki rites. Have you seen this book?
Yes – the soul part has left me – though it was an ‘old’ me, and since then there has been a lot of self healing and development – if there had been none then I do see that the part may be ‘reluctant’ to return, but a return to a more healed person is much more like healing. Although you say that shamanism is not a self-help process I think soul retrieval can be part of a healing process, and no one is better placed to heal a person than themselves (be this new age or not it is something I have come to understand clearly). There is guidance from beings along the way, not least from personal guides, so one is not alone.
“The soul part has left you, and is often not aware that time has passed. It is you it is running away from “ – now this is not what I see- for the soul part has left because of trauma, not because of the person, if one can demonstrate that the trauma no longer exists and that the results of it have been healed then there is no reason why the soul part should not return. On the other hand, no matter if there is a shaman involved, why would a soul part return if the trauma still exists or the results have not been healed? The intention was simply to seek to retrieve lost soul parts and reunite them, why would there be any other intent.

“How did you get the soul part into you?” – the process was gentle but visible or perhaps palpable, energy moving and joining. I’m not sure what it feels like for those who have the help of a shaman, but I see no ‘drifting’ parts and have no sense of ‘incompleteness’, there was certainly no ‘coercion’.
“Did you have a way of checking whether the soul part needed healing?” – yes – of course it did, and healing was given, that is part of the process.

“You have to deal with spirits who may have a very different agenda to yours. Some may wish to hurt you.” – I have met many of these, often they are just lost and angry souls, but they have never hurt me, I have no fear of them. There are no bad souls, they are just confused and in need of healing – then they can resume their journey.
I have seen the results of what are regarded as the ‘ill effects’ that can result – I think most of it is driven by fear, and if the fear is banished then there will be no ill effects. The ‘fear’ driver is often used by groups and people ranging from political groups to religions, I do not find it persuasive.

A soul retrieval, done badly, will put the client in a worse position than before. An extraction, done badly, can make both the shaman and the client ill (to death, sometimes)” – can you expand on this, as statements they are clear, but the reasons are not given. Even healing done badly can cause adverse effects, but we still do self-healing.

“Training to do shamanic healing takes time and committment.” – yes – I’m sure it does, all forms of healing require time and commitment.

“We have our own spirit helpers. I trust mine implicitly” – yes – totally.
love
chris

Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed letter. I've taken a while to reply as I stayed off-line over the Solstice (as I guess many will do over Christmas).

I have not read this particular book of Villoldo’s, although I have read others.

I am really glad that the soul retrieval that you did for yourself worked. However, as I said, this is rare. Many of the clients I have seen who have, at some time, done their own soul retrievals, have needed extra help from a practitioner.

“You have to deal with spirits who may have a very different agenda to yours. Some may wish to hurt you.” – I have met many of these, often they are just lost and angry souls, but they have never hurt me, I have no fear of them. There are no bad souls, they are just confused and in need of healing – then they can resume their journey.

I do not think we are talking about the same thing. I did say that many of the spirits who cause harm are damaged themselves – including lost and angry – and I am glad for you that you have never had cause to meet others, but that doesn’t mean they do not exist. I am not talking about ‘bad souls’ – indeed, I would not understand that terminology – the phrase about ‘agendas’ is the best way I can explain it. I’m thinking of, for example, the woman whose soul had been taken by spirits who considered themselves ‘good’ and the rest of us ‘evil’ and, therefore, taking her soul was part of them ‘saving’ her. Or the man who, when much younger, had sold his soul to the devil. Or the man who had called up a spirit (that he didn’t really believe in) challenging it to possess him. None of these spirits were ‘bad’ or ‘evil’ and none of the victims were, either. They were, maybe, young, ignorant or even stupid, but those are not crimes.

I have seen the results of what are regarded as the ‘ill effects’ that can result – I think most of it is driven by fear, and if the fear is banished then there will be no ill effects. The ‘fear’ driver is often used by groups and people ranging from political groups to religions, I do not find it persuasive.

Fear can rule people’s lives. However, it serves a purpose. Fear is a great teacher and can easily be got rid of once it is no longer needed. However, caution is not the same as fear.

Have a good festive season