Is anyone else out there...?

I certainly see where you're coming from and I don't know much about neo-practices but I do enjoy history so understand the true roots of some of the neo-practices out there. In terms of shamanism, I don't know about American as I've always known it from Scandinavian culture. It incorporates everything and is a culture, way of life. It incorporates their beliefs, religion, their way of life, their society and economics. Much like what paganism and such are, it's a point of cultural time.

The base principles in Shamanism, for example, can be adapted to a way of therapy but I don't really see it as being Shamanism because it's not all it is - however, in some ways it's a little like offering credit to the base structure of it.

I can't say much because I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of neo-belief systems but that's my thoughts at least.

I have always wondered why we are in the mystical section here. Regardless of the status of shamanism I would think it more appropriate for this topic to be in the same section as
Paganism and Wicca to which it is more akin than mysticism. Shamanism Has no more to do with mysticism than the two previously mentioned belief systems and practices.

I would like to see this rectified sooner rather than later.

Best wishes to you all.

Malcolm

shamanism under mystical.

Hi everyone.
I find it hard to believe that shamanism has been catagorised with mystical.The word mystical is as i am sure you know an adjective.I think they have mistaken the noun version of this ie Mystic being someone who seeks spiritual knowledge.
I do not believe i come anywhere near calling myself a shaman as you never achieve that status as i understand it because you never reach the end of your spiritual walk. you can never aquire to much knowledge to pass on to your fellow human beings or speak too much about your nations myths and traditions.
I have a friend who is an imam and he likens shamanism with the way of islam it being a peaceful way of life. Compassion and humility towards all living creatures and respect for our ancesters in my understanding being at the core.
I agree with the ideal that shamanism is more of a faith than a therapy, however something i think only becomes a faith or a religion if there been a war over it.
I hope my thread has not upset anyone it was not meant in that way at all and i would be happy to take part in any discussions about this.

In terms of shamanism, I don't know about American as I've always known it from Scandinavian culture. It incorporates everything and is a culture, way of life. It incorporates their beliefs, religion, their way of life, their society and economics. .

While some American (North and South) are shamanic, as are the Sami in Scandinavia, the word is from the Tungus language (Siberia and northern China). The practice is found all over the world.

Not sure about the "neo" bit. That only applies, surely, if we are deciding for ourselves what to believe. If everything comes from the spirits then we can rely on them to guide our practice (which is not at all the same as doing without this-reality teachers) , in the same way that they guided the practice of shamans throughout history - and still do in mant parts of the world. So, not really "neo", but not really "ancient" either.

I agree with the ideal that shamanism is more of a faith than a therapy, however something i think only becomes a faith or a religion if there been a war over it.
.

I could agree that religion maybe has an element of politics in it (and, for shamanism, check out the Manchu rulers of China - they used shamanism as a power trip), but to be a faith, doesn't something just need faith? Although, shamanism being an experiential practice, I guess it needs less faith than many.

If I had to be precise, I'd say that my faith/religion is Core Shamanism. But my definition would not be Harner's. The "Core" bit means two things - first, that shamanism is at the core of all I do; and second, that the spirits are core to my practice. It grows from the spirits of this land (or whatever land you are in) and, while the teachings of other cultures can be valuable and interesting, does not take from them.

This is the kind of discussion that I value. It helps to widen all our experiences and reassures me that I'm not the only one taking such subjects seriously!

Hi crowan
sorry its been a while i just read your reply and thanks for your objective and interesting views and for being so frank about your core beliefs
I found your reply refreshing its always good to have intelligent interaction.
I am sure you will agree with me that a basic ideal certainly of the beliefs of my relations is to listen to all points of view of all walks and while they may go against your own not to dismiss them.
Shamanism to me is the same as a call to enter the church in respect of christianity

I am sure you will agree with me that a basic ideal certainly of the beliefs of my relations is to listen to all points of view of all walks and while they may go against your own not to dismiss them.

I certainly do agree with you. I wouldn't dismiss anyone's beliefs - although I might argue with some! And, I think, that disagreement leads to some of the most interesting and educational exchanges.

(I think we are in 'mystical' because HP doesn't know what to do with us!)

Well it is mystical - and its not!
Its a body of very practical techniques which predate psychotherapy by millenia - plus a lot more - and a 'Way' which will ultimately lead to the mystical and the questioning of all things.
On the one hand then its a bit bizarre to be in this category because shamanic healing is pragamatic, effective and proven. Om the other, well lets just be philosophical and 'mystical' about it!

Well it is mystical - and its not!
Its a body of very practical techniques which predate psychotherapy by millenia - plus a lot more - and a 'Way' which will ultimately lead to the mystical and the questioning of all things.
On the one hand then its a bit bizarre to be in this category because shamanic healing is pragamatic, effective and proven. Om the other, well lets just be philosophical and 'mystical' about it!

Ah, but is it any more, or less, mystical that (for example) Spiritualism? Which HP has no problem with putting under both 'Therapy' (as Spiritual Healing ) and 'Religion' (as Spiritualism).

Perhaps using the term 'Mystical' at all as a heading in a forum is problematic?

Astrology, Dreams and Readings would all class as 'Divination', the rest would come under a general 'beliefs' umbrella but I agree, Shamanism seems out of place here as though not fully understood or marginalised and even the term 'mystical' seems to be misunderstood in context to headings on a forum.

Hello, no you're not alone, i'm interested in following a shamanic path too.

As I sort of tpuched on in my reply to another thread, shamanism is very different to each individual practising it. While it definitely is a shared spiritual path, I personally wouldn't class it as a religion or faith.
Paganism/Wicca, as with all other major religions, have particular festivals and days of celebration, whereas shamanism doesn't. In Wicca, although they don't have a bible, there are several 'rites' and tools that are widely followed. Also when in a coven, there is a particular order (high priest/priestss etc). It's quite organised and there is a template that can be followed. (I know I am generalising a bit and that it can and does differ, but this is just to make a point).

With shamanism, it's different for each individual. No ceremonies are the same.
It's a tough call, but as far as the sections in the forum go, I think mystical is probably the most appropriate. With the help of google, i've found this following definition "Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses". That's pretty accurate from my experiences.

Paganism/Wicca, as with all other major religions, have particular festivals and days of celebration, whereas shamanism doesn't.

Most shamanic practitioners I know in northern Europe follow the Eight Festivals, since these are the energy change points in the year which the land here holds and the land spirits refer to. The ones who don't tend to be those who don't use ceremony at all.

In other parts of the world shamanic cultures follow the energetic rhythms of the land where they are. (When I'm in China, I follow the Chinese wheel of the year.) Whereas other religions start in one part of the world and then attempt to impose those rhythms on other places (not always successfully).

I'm not saying it should be a religion for everyone. But it is for plenty of us. Since theological experts can't agree on what a religion is and most dictionary definitions would exclude everything other than the mono-theistic big three, it seems reasonable to go with what I put on forms when asked.

It is certainly viewed as a therapy (or a type of healing) by many who come for shamanic healing. My original point was simply that that is only a tiny part of what it is.

It's a tough call, but as far as the sections in the forum go, I think mystical is probably the most appropriate. With the help of google, i've found this following definition "Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses". That's pretty accurate from my experiences.

I would say that shamanism is apparent to the senses. I see, hear, feel, taste and smell things in non-ordinary reality. Otherwise, why would any of us Journey? But doesn't this definition equally cover all those practices which HP puts under 'Spiritual'?

I think i've got resistance to calling it a religion personally, because I love the freedom shamanism brings and the way people can do it their own way. I tend to think that with religion there's a book/bible telling you that you shall do this, or you must celebrate a particular day in certain way. I see it as quite limiting, and so a bit of a 'bad' thing.
I can see that to call it a religion would be helpful in some ways though, so that it could get the acknowledgement and respect it rightfully deserves. It's always bugged me that on forms when asked if you follow a certain religion, there is no option to describe any alternative beliefs that are actually a really important part of people's lives.

I think i've got resistance to calling it a religion personally, because I love the freedom shamanism brings and the way people can do it their own way. I tend to think that with religion there's a book/bible telling you that you shall do this, or you must celebrate a particular day in certain way. I see it as quite limiting, and so a bit of a 'bad' thing.

Those of my friends who have been brought up in religions also have this resistance. I was brought up by two very loving atheist parents who, despite the fact that their belief system was not the same as mine, kept the expression of their beliefs to some very enjoyable family debates. As a result, I have none of the baggage that so many people have with the word 'religion'. This is in no way a criticism of anyone else. We're all different. but I count myself very lucky.

When my book came out, Mum was thrilled - even though she never actually read it, having no interest in shamanism. It was kept carefully and shown off to anyone who visited.
😉

You know this may sound crazy but I don't know zilch about Shamanism but for one reason or another lately I keep getting drawn to things/articles about it. I intend now to research it but I would be interested if anyone could maybe tell me briefly just what is it all about?

thanks

Not easy to do. Essentially, the shaman/shamanic practitioner (and terminology is a whole different discussion!) takes a trance journey to the spirit worlds (all spirits, not just dead people) to negotiate, with the help of spirits who are his or her friends and helpers, with spirits in order to bring back information, power and healing for the community.

That's a very basic definition. I'm sure other people will chip in and expand it. I hope so.

I intend now to research it

Be careful here. Shamanism is a word that is bandied around by many people who just like the word. There are basically three avenues of research:

• Anthropological - I'd recommend "Shamanism - Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy" by Mircea Eliade or anything by Piers Vitebsky, but there are a lot about. On the whole they aren't written by people who have direct experience but they are about - and quoting - people who are shamans. They are very good for gaining an understanding of how much Neo-shamanism is coming from the spirits and how much is borrowed New-Age stuff. I'm not advocating taking beliefs or practices from other cultures; we can get those from our own spirits.
• Neo-shamanic books - authors I'd recommend are Michael Harner (The Way of the Shaman) and Sandra Ingerman (particularly 'Soul Retrieval'). My book, "The Spirits are Always with me" (Jane Shutt) was written specifically to try to explain what shamanism is.
• Websites - ignore any that don't mention 'spirits' and any where the writer says nothing about his or her own learning (how long they've been doing shamanic work and who they learned from).

I think you are in Durham? Is that right? I'm afraid I don't know anyone around there who I could suggest you talk to - because a chat over coffee is a really good way to get a feel of whether it is for you or not. If you are ever in the Scarborough area, drop me a line.

Don't try things for yourself. Bear in mind that in shamanic cultures people don't go seeking to be a shaman. They know it to be a difficult and dangerous path. I would suggest, if you decide you want to take it further, that you enrol on an Introductory Workshop with a reputable teacher.

I would like to see this rectified sooner rather than later.

Best wishes to you all.