Reikiangel and I were having an interesting conversation on the Book, Music, Film Reviews area. Clearly not the right place for it. Maybe Philosophy? Or Reiki and Energy Healing? Anyway, I’ve put it here. And I’m really interested in other people’s views.:)
Originally Posted by Reikiangel
Personally I don't believe in 'good' or 'evil'. I do believe in the light energies and the dark and we have both in each and every one of us.
Originally posted by Crowan
Thanks.
So what are the differences between 'good/evil' and 'light/dark'?
And how would you define 'angel'? I'm asking this because I come across a lot of people who talk about 'angels' in a very ill-defined way. Some mean angels as 'God's messenger' (as in the Bible), other mean something that I might regard as 'power animals' and yet others more as a spirit teacher or guide (and I think there are often differences between 'teacher' and 'guide', as well). Is there an accepted definition?
Well I think us humans have confused minds. Due to the capacity for always wanting "what should be" conflicting with the reality of "what is". The forces of Nature is both constructive and destructive, but in our confused minds we project onto that the ideas of good and evil. What's the difference between black & white, good & evil, yin & yang? Point of View!! I can understand why the mystics, gurus, buddhas etc say to be still, as it's a way to detach from confusion, becoming more centred and united inwardly and see life as it is.
As for angels, amazing how the bible talks about god's bully boys, yet in these modern times people cherry pick what they want to form their fluffy bunny opinions of what an angel should be. Definitive definitions can never be drawn about angels as every one has a different opinion as it's all subjective. Have a look at some angel books, they all say different things about the angels.
Same with the faeries. Read the some of the old stories about them and they come across from pranksters to quite nasty. Yet there's this subculture of faery-dom portraying faeries as harmless young sexy nymphs (getting hot under the collar now :004: lol). Better get down to WH Smiths tomorrow morning and get the latest Fae Magazine (new age pornography :rolleyes:).
RP
Urgh. As a pagan/Wiccan, to me, Angels are the elementals of the 5th element, ether/ki. I'm not overly keen on the whole Christian guardian angel theme. Yes I believe in spirits that advise and guide us, I have the spirit of an older brother who is a guide. To me this is vastly different to angels
I believe there is good and evil, that it exists in all of us, not in equal measures of course as some of us are almost entirely good. Although I do believe in elementals of evil, demons. They rarely interact with humans as far as I can tell, not the "paranormal activity" kind, just particularly harmful spirits that wish to harm energetically as that's all they can do.
Good and evil are two directions, one leads to peace inside and the other to non-peace.
As for angels, we are all angels to each other. Beyond thatpoint they have never got me interested. They are mere projections of one's own mind.
Reikiangel and I were having an interesting conversation on the Book, Music, Film Reviews area. Clearly not the right place for it. Maybe Philosophy? Or Reiki and Energy Healing? Anyway, I’ve put it here. And I’m really interested in other people’s views.:)
Originally Posted by Reikiangel
Personally I don't believe in 'good' or 'evil'. I do believe in the light energies and the dark and we have both in each and every one of us.Originally posted by Crowan
Thanks.So what are the differences between 'good/evil' and 'light/dark'?
It's a subjective measurement/judgement of what is.
People become attached to wanting to know 'good' and to be able to measure that they have to use subjective 'quality' to measure it, and by creating subjective quality, we create a dualism that requires an opposing measure, which we then label as 'bad' (and likewise for other polar measurements). Yet this 'good' and 'bad' cannot be true, for one persons good is another persons bad, and something cannot be both good and bad at the same time.
And how would you define 'angel'? I'm asking this because I come across a lot of people who talk about 'angels' in a very ill-defined way. Some mean angels as 'God's messenger' (as in the Bible), other mean something that I might regard as 'power animals' and yet others more as a spirit teacher or guide (and I think there are often differences between 'teacher' and 'guide', as well). Is there an accepted definition?
To my understanding, an 'angel' is a conceptual construction within the mind created to give a sense of 'other' that oversees one, typically from a 'good' perspective. It's like a sense of needing something other that is 'good' to explain and comfort when one experiences something other from that 'good'. (if that makes sense, I could perhaps word it better if I took the time, and expand on what I mean also).
All Love and Reiki Hugs
As for angels, we are all angels to each other. Beyond thatpoint they have never got me interested. They are mere projections of one's own mind.
Projections of the mind create a space for spirits to fill. Everything has a spirit, including a mind projection.
Isn't the concept of good and evil just that a concept created by society to gain control (not in a bad way I may add)? Its a way of defining the rules within society and if you don't conform to societies rules then you are cast out as evil???
For me, good is something that is beneficial to self and others (society), whilst evil is something that is detrimental to others (for self gain) or even self-destructive.
I agree that each and everyone of us has the capacity for good or evil depending upon the circumstances we are put under. It is up to the self and/or society to later determine whether our actions during those circumstances were good or evil.
With regards to Angels, I believe that they are spirit guides and mentors. There to assist us in gaining the experience and learning the lessons we are here to learn. They do not interfere but offer us options and it is up to us which option (path) we take.
On angels, IMHO there are three "evolutions" in the universe, or let's just stick to Earth! --- the angelic kingdom, the elemental kingdom, and the human kingdom. That's a brief answer re angels to me: one of these three kingdoms of conscious beings.
V
On angels, IMHO there are three "evolutions" in the universe, or let's just stick to Earth! --- the angelic kingdom, the elemental kingdom, and the human kingdom. That's a brief answer re angels to me: one of these three kingdoms of conscious beings.
V
Is this what you have read/learned from other people, or what you have learned through experience. How would you describe these kingdoms?
What about animals, plants, minerals?
And what of other spirits?
Hi Crowan,
I like your avatar (I love Crows, Rooks and Ravens). Do you know the Ted Hughes poem "[url]Crow's Fall[/url]" (there is mention of light and dark within the poem, just to keep it thread topical :D)
So what are the differences between 'good/evil' and 'light/dark'?
Anyway, I'd like to ask how do you see the differences between 'good/evil' and 'light/dark'?
And how would you define 'angel'? I'm asking this because I come across a lot of people who talk about 'angels' in a very ill-defined way.
.... and how would define 'angel' ?
Anyway, I'd like to ask how do you see the differences between 'good/evil' and 'light/dark'?
I don’t use these words in this way – of course, I talk about ‘light’ and ‘dark’, as I talk about ‘day’ and ‘night’, but with no good/bad connotations. This type of dichotomy does not occur in shamanism except where there has been a lot of influence from monotheistic religions (such as Islam in the Middle East, or Catholicism in South America). My spirits (and other’s spirits – we’ve done work on this in our local group) say that ‘evil’ is a human word that can be translated as ‘something the monotheistic god disapproves of’. If we don’t buy into monotheism and its constant fight between the forces of ‘good/light’ and ‘evil/dark’ (am I the only one to feel there’s some racism in this terminology?) then we don’t have to believe in any of it.
The spirits do talk about good and bad – in terms of things being good or bad for something – never as an abstract Capital Letter type of thing. Rape, torture, war are bad because they harm the victim. But it is the action that is bad, not the rapist, torturer or warmonger. And certainly not the soldier. The deciding factor seems to be the amount of harm an action does to a particular creature/spirit.
People do bad things because they are damaged. So do spirits.
.... and how would define 'angel' ?
As I said before, people use the word ‘angel’ in many different ways. When people talk about ‘Guardian Angels’ (i.e. a being that looks after/protects an individual) I think they are generally referring to what I would call a Power Animal. Spirits often appear in a form that we will accept and many (in our culture, at least) will not accept animals as spiritual/wise beings.
Sometimes, as Meadowsweet did lower down the page, the name ‘angel’ is given to what many would term a ‘guide’ and what I might call a ‘Teacher’.
There are also beings, some human (i.e. who are incarnate as humans here, now) and some spirit, who are occasionally called ‘Lords and Ladies of Transition’. My spirits don’t like this title, thinking it too grandiose. They are those who psychopomp – who help the souls travel from here to the Land of the Dead (and back, into the next life). Some of these ‘lords and ladies’ will appear as classic angels – as I have done, when necessary.
And then there are what I refer to as the ‘guys in white’. They tend to call themselves ‘Angels’. I would have as little to do with them as possible.
And then there are what I refer to as the ‘guys in white’. They tend to call themselves ‘Angels’. I would have as little to do with them as possible.
Why, Crowan? Is there something sinister about them? (I ask out of genuine interest!)
Why, Crowan? Is there something sinister about them? (I ask out of genuine interest!)
It's all to do with this 'buying into' the Good/Evil dichotomy. Many people do this. I imagine that most Christians and Muslims do, at least to an extent. Others who have been very influenced by Christianity/Islam and its 'believe what we say or we'll kill you' attitude (not to say that all Christinans and Muslims are like this, but it is clearly there in the history) have also bought into it. I'm thinking particularly of Hinduism and Native American spirituality. So the idea is very strong.
There are spirits who think like this as well. Some who were devout while here and others who have converted since death (it's mind-boggling, I know, but I've come across a lot of Spiritualists who use this as an explaination for having Native American guides spouting Christian views).
These 'guys in white' are the ones who believe that there is a battle between 'Good' and ‘Evil’ – and that ‘the end (i.e. gaining souls for ‘God’) justifies the means’.
You may never come across them. But if you were to do a lot of soul retrieval, sooner or later you’d find someone whose soul was held by them. They think they’re the ‘Good Guys’, but doesn’t everyone?
I see; yes, it is a lot to take on board! So not only do we have to contend with the "good" and "bad" in ourselves and our fellow-humans, but we must also be wary of any spirits or "angels" we may come across...
:confused:
Wow... I know I'm going of course a bit here... but, how do you know all of this Crowan? How did you first become involved in Shamanism? In order to become a Shaman, are you taught to 'no questions' adopt the 'views' of your Shamanic predecessors.... or are you guided/trained/encouraged to make your own discoveries? And if you do make your own discoveries, do you accept those discoveries as absolute knowledge... and would you feel secure in passing that knowledge onto others as an actuality?
Wow... I know I'm going of course a bit here... but, how do you know all of this Crowan? How did you first become involved in Shamanism? In order to become a Shaman, are you taught to 'no questions' adopt the 'views' of your Shamanic predecessors.... or are you guided/trained/encouraged to make your own discoveries? And if you do make your own discoveries, do you accept those discoveries as absolute knowledge... and would you feel secure in passing that knowledge onto others as an actuality?
I first came across shamanism in the early 1980s and studied it, first with Alawn Tickhill, then Kenneth Meadows. My learning really took off in 1993, when I met Jonathan Horwitz for the first time. Since 1997 I have been seeing clients for healing and teaching shamanism to others. In 2003 Rider Books published my book about shamanism. If you go to the ‘members list’ my website is listed there.
In order to teach I have to explain a little about the spirit worlds – how we journey and about the three worlds – but I am not saying that these have to be believed in. Workshop participants will find the truth of these for themselves when they start.
Then I get people to do a trance journey themselves, during which they will go to the Lower World and meet a power animal. During the workshop (Friday evening to Sunday afternoon) we also take a look at the Upper and Middle Worlds and meet a Spirit Teacher and a Nature Spirit. We do a healing ceremony.
With these tools, people can begin to build up their relationships with their spirit helpers. I run a year-long follow-up course and we hold local group meetings. People can take further courses, learning to heal humans and/or to work with Nature Spirits.
Most of what I post could really have in front of it the words, ‘in my experience …’. I am curious and have long discussions with my spirits on ‘the nature of Evil’ or suchlike. But also I work with friends, having a discussion, then deciding on a journey mission, all doing the journey to ask our own spirits for answers then feeding back to the circle.
There are a few things that we all believe – that everything has a spirit, and that we all have many lives are two of them. I have known people practice shamanism while thinking it is all in their heads, but they don’t often get very far with it. That’s all very well when you are using it only for your own guidance, but you need to trust your spirits implicitly in order to help others.
I did meet one man, years ago, who said to me,
“I like the philosophy of shamanism but I have two problems with it.”
While wondering what ‘the philosophy’ was, I asked him what his problems were. He said,
“I don’t believe in the spirits and I don’t like the drumming.”
I suggested he find another path.
But no, we don’t have dogma. We make our own discoveries, or are given information by our spirit helpers. And then I (and I would imagine, many shamanic practitioners) discuss what I’ve found with friends. It does tend to all fit together.
Hmmmn.. wow.. Shamanism does seem pretty fascinating and amazing, Crowan... I have a couple of other questions (I'll let them cook a while longer) and come back to your above post either on this thread or another, if that's OK with you :).
Hmmmn.. wow.. Shamanism does seem pretty fascinating and amazing, Crowan... I have a couple of other questions (I'll let them cook a while longer) and come back to your above post either on this thread or another, if that's OK with you :).
That will be fine. I'll talk to you when you're ready. 🙂