tarot etc

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sleep well....:)

Oh, I will!

🙂

It's counselling, then....?

Not really - more about seeing the world in terms of cycles and forces/energies, therefore having a different insight into what might be going on at any point in time.

I suppose I could say that for me, learning tarot was like learning to wear a different pair of glasses.

Not really - more about seeing the world in terms of cycles and forces/energies, therefore having a different insight into what might be going on at any point in time.

I suppose I could say that for me, learning tarot was like learning to wear a different pair of glasses.

What you wrote earlier - prompting my question about counselling - was: "This has really helped me to see the world with a different pair of eyes and to know how better to respond to other people when they are speaking about things that are bothering them."

It was this aspect of you speaking to others about their problems that suggests counselling. You may not realise you're doing that but other respondents have already suggested it's one way they use cards.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not criticising, simply trying to understand....

I think the trouble with Wiki is that anyone can and does write up the information and sometimes it is confusing, misleading or just the narrow view of the writer.

I use all things to 'read' information from, crystals, balls, twigs, tarot, angel cards, clouds. You name it. I read it!

Where does the information come from? Well many answers. I am an energy person, I tend to believe in energies, some we can feel, some we can touch, or see. I also think that the energies come from different places when using different reading methods, How does my crystal ball seem to show faces or events? It could be my wishful thinking, my imagination or it could be the influence of the collective energies of everything.

Tarot is amazingly accurate (with the right reader that is!) But how can shuffling cards and then laying them (simplified of course) create answers to questions... but they do. There are many ways of using the cards too and each way can call on a different energy. Each deck is different, each card has an interpretation. A reader reads that.

Of course a strict shaman will only believe in that method, but more open minded people may just come out and say we just don't know! Professional readers will come out with lots of explanations, some will say that the information is from spirit, aura or guides, then sadly some will chartge the earth and more.

Maybe it is me being clairvoyant that gives me the inside information, but what you will find is that every strong believer has their own take on what is happening and most will defend those views to the death.

What does a reading give?

A good reading provides information, it empowers, it enlightens and it also counsels, providing hope and inspiration. Fun and entertainment play a part too, as a reading should be enjoyable.

A bad reading or should that be a badly given reading or a reading from a bad reader can wreck a life!

Do you think we should shift this to the shamanism forum?

No, thought the thread was about tarot and readings, not shamanism?

Mac, have you ever had a reading yourself? If so what was it like?

Of course a strict shaman will only believe in that method, but more open minded people may just come out and say we just don't know!

Can one not be a ‘strict shaman’ (or shamanic practitioner) and also be open minded?

What you wrote earlier - prompting my question about counselling - was: "This has really helped me to see the world with a different pair of eyes and to know how better to respond to other people when they are speaking about things that are bothering them."

It was this aspect of you speaking to others about their problems that suggests counselling. You may not realise you're doing that but other respondents have already suggested it's one way they use cards.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not criticising, simply trying to understand....

I think there is a far larger element of counselling in giving readings than most readers realise. Perhaps because I am a trained counseller I recognise that, or perhaps that is why my readings tend to contain help in this way? But one of the reasons I trained was because of the situations I found myself in whilst reading and I wanted to have some expertise in dealing with them.

There are some situations that a reading should not be given in and many people that should not receive a reading too. So there has to be a lot of careful consideration before taking on the heavy responsibility of giving a reading. Sadly far too many people just pick up a deck and proclaim they can read.without hesitation or a thought about the implications and effects of their reading on others.Many then go on to charge and perhaps this is why readers may have such a split reputation?

Knowing better how to respond to other people when they are speaking about things that are bothering them may indicate an aspect of spying or foretelling especially if the cards are used that way. So not sure about this, perhaps because the cards can give so much information that was what was meant.

Can one not be a ‘strict shaman’ (or shamanic practitioner) and also be open minded?

I would have thought that if one believed in the ideas and followed strictly the laws of shamanism then there would be no room for other possible reasons for the cards information being given to be true. Obviously it is possible for anyone to be open minded and to accept other's views and beliefs, but is that really being open minded or just accepting to differ?

Of course the cards may just be working on pure luck as a game of which card is drawn, with no reason behind it except the luck of the draw. However I have read too many times to not think that there has to be a real reason behind the cards.

Does your friend use a shamanic deck do you know ? I would be interested to see which deck they used 🙂

I would have thought that if one believed in the ideas and followed strictly the laws of shamanism then there would be no room for other possible reasons for the cards information being given to be true.

What are these ‘laws of shamanism’?

Does your friend use a shamanic deck do you know ? I would be interested to see which deck they used

No, she uses Rider Waite. I know that some decks are labelled ‘shamanic’, but I have no idea what is shamanic about them. It’s just a selling point, isn’t it?

One of my favourite decks is the Rider Waite Smith. But 'themed' decks can be very helpful and on occasion have a much easier interpretation than the RWS so it can be wise to choose a deck that reflects one's spiritual beliefs. Rather than having a Pope or Hierophant one might use the Shaman card or instead of Death, Rebirth etc.

There are many shamanic decks like Thoth, Shaman Tarot, Sacred Path, Ascension, The Old Path, Medicine Woman, Shapeshifter, and oracle decks which include Power Animal, Stone People, Shaman Wisdom, Shaman's Oracle, Celtic Shaman to name a few and there are many more depending on if one is based in Native American tradition, Mayan or for instance Ancient Egyptian.

Laws? Everything has 'laws' or rules, perhaps guidelines is too free or lax.

There are many shamanic decks like Thoth, Shaman Tarot, Sacred Path, Ascension, The Old Path, Medicine Woman, Shapeshifter, and oracle decks which include Power Animal, Stone People, Shaman Wisdom, Shaman's Oracle, Celtic Shaman to name a few and there are many more depending on if one is based in Native American tradition, Mayan or for instance Ancient Egyptian.

I’m aware of some of these. But they aren’t really anything to do with shamanism.

Laws? Everything has 'laws' or rules, perhaps guidelines is too free or lax.

I can’t think of any rules for shamanism.

I would have thought that if one believed in the ideas and followed strictly the laws of shamanism …

Can you say what these laws are? Or was it simply an assumption?

Shamanism is an animalistic belief system. That is, everything has a spirit. The shaman communicates and negotiates with the spirits on behalf of the community and communicates and negotiates with the community on behalf of the spirits. That is simply what shamanism is. No laws, no rules.
As far as the claim to my being open minded is concerned, I believe that tarot cards have spirits. I personally would not be interested in reading tarot without being in contact with those spirits. Other people may connect with a spirit teacher or a spirit guide to help them read the cards, and that could be done through shamanism or by some other method. Some may use their intuition. There may be other methods. I don’t doubt these methods work, but they are not my method. I have no objections to other people using them.

Shamanism is an animalistic belief system.

You said that before, but I thought it was just a simple mistake, but now you have once again stated that you think that shamanism is an animalistic belief system I have to add that I don't think that is right.

Shamanism is an animistic belief system surely?

Or do you follow some new branch that thinks everything follows an animal persona?

I believe that tarot cards have spirits.

Are we talking that each individual card of each deck that is printed has an individual spirit? Because many readers call on the spirit of the card as in the spirit of the High Priestess or the spirit of the Emperor etc which are more the essence and individual power of the card a bit like a power animal related to a power guide. In which case it is far better to choose a deck that reflects one's own true beliefs rather than using the 'essence; of The Hierophant or The Pope, perhaps using the power of The Shaman or The Medicine Woman might cause less conflict.

I personally would not be interested in reading tarot without being in contact with those spirits. Other people may connect with a spirit teacher or a spirit guide to help them read the cards, and that could be done through shamanism or by some other method.

That isn't really a tarot reading at all though is it. It's a spirit reading, but using tarot as a base.

Some may use their intuition. There may be other methods. I don’t doubt these methods work, but they are not my method.

It's strange how few 'tarot readers' actually bother to learn the individual cards properly, and also how to lay and then read them, most don't take the time or effort and instead use other methods spirit, or intuitive methods, guesses etc..

I have no objections to other people using them.

Lol that's that open mindedness showing through. 🙂

Shamanism is an animalistic belief system. That is, we believe that everything has a spirit.

Hi Crowan,

At the beginning and throughout this thread, you've used the word animalistic in relation to the Shamanic belief system of everything having a spirit.

Isn't it the word animistic which defines the belief that everything has a spirit?

EDIT: Have just read the above post and noticed that Cascara has pointed out the same thing.

You said that before, but I thought it was just a simple mistake, but now you have once again stated that you think that shamanism is an animalistic belief system I have to add that I don't think that is right.
Shamanism is an animistic belief system surely?

You are completely right. This is my spell-check which has, for some reason, simply changed what I wrote. It recognises animism but not animistic (well, it does now. I’ve sorted that) and I hadn’t noticed. Thanks for pointing it out.:o:)

Are we talking that each individual card of each deck that is printed has an individual spirit?

Everything has a spirit.

It's a spirit reading, but using tarot as a base.

Yes, I’d agree, but I think it is still within the area that Mac was asking about.

I spent some time thinking about the animistic qualities of tarot cards...

If we agree that everything has a spirit surely it makes more sense to call on the spirit of what the card portrays, for instance The High Priestess, or The Magician, both really powerful archetypes and spiritual characters, rather than the spirit of a piece of cardboard that was once a tree and that has inks on it? I wonder what that spirit could offer that would be better or even useful compared to the true 'spirit' the cards represent?

Often I teach about walking into a card, visiting the essence or spirit it portrays, meditating on the character and seeing what comes, usually with the Major Arcana that is, but it works with any tarot card. Usually the student gathers more information about the cards meaning, it's powers, meanings and uses, but never have I ever thought of any value of an individual spirit of that particular piece of cardboard that has I suppose been lucky enough to have it's existence rewarded with having the image printed on it? I suppose a really lucky card too when one thinks how many never get to be owned lol?
The deck as a whole together has the power of tarot and the spirit of tarot stamped through it. Perhaps that is the 'spirit' that overpowers all the others or should be allowed to?

If we agree that everything has a spirit surely it makes more sense to call on the spirit of what the card portrays, for instance The High Priestess, or The Magician, both really powerful archetypes and spiritual characters, rather than the spirit of a piece of cardboard that was once a tree and that has inks on it? I wonder what that spirit could offer that would be better or even useful compared to the true 'spirit' the cards represent?

Since everything has a spirit, does it matter if I speak to individual cards and you speak to archetypes (which is not a shamanic concept but which, nevertheless, must have a spirit)? I’m not sure about your term ‘spiritual characters’. Do you mean that in some way they are more spiritual than other characters? Why does once being a tree and having ink on it make something less spiritual? And what is a ‘true spirit’?

What do the inverted commas around spirit mean?

Cascara said:

The deck as a whole together has the power of tarot and the spirit of tarot stamped through it. Perhaps that is the 'spirit' that overpowers all the others or should be allowed to?

Yes, that's the way I see it too, but shamanism doesn't seem to allow for the existence of an 'abstract' spirit.

Yes, that's the way I see it too, but shamanism doesn't seem to allow for the existence of an 'abstract' spirit.

What do you mean by an 'abstract spirit'? Do you mean a spirit of an abstraction? If everything has a spirit, then so do abstract things. After all, much of shamanic healing concerns the spirits of illness.

And how many spirits would that involve, considering how many strains of various illnesses, infections, etc.etc. there are or might be? Would there be a spirit solely of your particular illness, if you were ill - which would be different from the illness spirit of someone else who had that illness? And what about individual germs? And viruses? Ad infinitum..... :confused:

Over to you, Cascara, I'm exasperated by all this!

Since everything has a spirit, does it matter if I speak to individual cards and you speak to archetypes (which is not a shamanic concept but which, nevertheless, must have a spirit)? I’m not sure about your term ‘spiritual characters’. Do you mean that in some way they are more spiritual than other characters? Why does once being a tree and having ink on it make something less spiritual? And what is a ‘true spirit’?

What do the inverted commas around spirit mean?

Sorry but I was talking about tarot (this thread is about tarot) and it would take a long time to explain the correlation of those two particular cards characters.

Personally I don't accept the blanket rigid beliefs about what you have described as 'shamanism', there are just too many holes. The deeper one digs the more flawed, on the surface your explanations are fine, but some of those provided just do not seem to follow in the true spirit of being a shaman. There is a distinct lacking of the clear link between spirit, connection, and life. Where is the generic and the harmonic? Where is the direct link and dynamism between part and whole that exists? You obviously have a strict shamanism culture that does not allow for scrutinisation that other shamans accept and allow.. or perhaps it is the tarot that is throwing the sword in the works here.

Sorry but I was talking about tarot (this thread is about tarot) and it would take a long time to explain the correlation of those two particular cards characters.

I haven't asked about it.

Personally I don't accept the blanket rigid beliefs about what you have described as 'shamanism', there are just too many holes. The deeper one digs the more flawed, on the surface your explanations are fine, but some of those provided just do not seem to follow in the true spirit of being a shaman. There is a distinct lacking of the clear link between spirit, connection, and life. Where is the generic and the harmonic? Where is the direct link and dynamism between part and whole that exists? You obviously have a strict shamanism culture that does not allow for scrutinisation that other shamans accept and allow.. or perhaps it is the tarot that is throwing the sword in the works here.

This seems rather ironical, since it seems that you have problems with my beliefs rather than my having problems with anyone else’. You have used a lot of terms that I don’t understand. When I’ve asked what you mean, I have had no reply. What, for example, are my blanket rigid beliefs? What is the ‘true spirit of being a shaman’? (Since I don’t understand what you mean by ‘generic’ and ‘harmonic’.) Do I obviously have a ‘strict shamanism culture’? I don’t even know what a ‘shamanism culture’ is. I have not said that you are wrong about archetypes. I asked some questions around what you said.

I haven't asked about it.

When you say you haven't asked about it you did in post 700972. I am amazed that you say you are a shaman but then you go on to say you do not understand harmonics or generics, or recognise your own culture has rules and beliefs. But this subject is really too abstract and remote from the original tarot thread and questions, so rather than hijack this thread to discuss your different ideas on shamanism here, may I suggest you start a thread in that forum 🙂

I guess mac is on holiday or just exasperated at the tangent replies?

rather than hijack this thread to discuss your different ideas on shamanism here, may I suggest you start a thread in that forum

Have done.