Could your spirit guide be a demon? Thoughts on this story?

Without meaning to offend, I think the author was wanting to find something to blame for those things that happened (I only skimmed the story so I won't get into detail).

Saying that "three and six are spirit numbers" as if that proves something negative is just subjective, as three can be seen positively in some spiritual sense such as the holy trinity in christianity etc.

And saying "during the next ten years I suffered several injury-related accidents, two bouts with Pneumonia, and one with Asthma — all spirit induced". On what evidence were these things spirit induced? It could just be that she didn't look after her health or there was some other factors.

I, personally, think that the spirits and spirit guides are what you want them to be, so if you choose to believe that they can be demonic, then that's what you'll get from them. A bit "law of attraction" if you like.

That's my view anyway. 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Without meaning to offend, I think the author was wanting to find something to blame for those things that happened (I only skimmed the story so I won't get into detail).

Saying that "three and six are spirit numbers" as if that proves something negative is just subjective, as three can be seen positively in some spiritual sense such as the holy trinity in christianity etc.

And saying "during the next ten years I suffered several injury-related accidents, two bouts with Pneumonia, and one with Asthma — all spirit induced". On what evidence were these things spirit induced? It could just be that she didn't look after her health or there was some other factors.

I, personally, think that the spirits and spirit guides are what you want them to be, so if you choose to believe that they can be demonic, then that's what you'll get from them. A bit "law of attraction" if you like.

That's my view anyway. 😉

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi thanks for your input a good way to look at it, although not sure if you skimmed and read the parts of her talking about the things they said to her after she claims they revealed themselves as demons.

I feel I've been growing spiritually but become nervous hearing things like this lol

Do you personally believe in spirit guides? If so how can you truely be sure who your talking to?

Reiki hugs 🙂

Hi thanks for your input a good way to look at it, although not sure if you skimmed and read the parts of her talking about the things they said to her after she claims they revealed themselves as demons.

Yes, I read those things, but my point was that perhaps she was hearing what she wanted to hear, so that she had someone/thing "else" to put the blame on.

I feel I've been growing spiritually but become nervous hearing things like this lol

Well, the best advice would be not to believe everything you read from other people just from their words. There are many people in this world with many different experiences and beliefs, and there's bound to be ones who say things that you don't want to hear (in fact their the ones most likely to be making a song and dance about it in public, as the ones getting on happily with their way of life are less likely to want to go out there and make sure everyone knows about it).

Do you personally believe in spirit guides? If so how can you truely be sure who your talking to?

Hmm.... good question. :rolleyes:

Can I answer yes and no?

Yes I do believe in spirit guides in one sense, but no I don't believe in spirit guides in the sense that you are likely to be meaning it. Sounds odd, I know, but I'll see if I can explain...

From personal experience (putting things to the test personally) I am confident that we live in a world where everything is connected, and that is the world of non-duality (there is no "other"), yet we are attached to our minds and our minds are great at creating dualistic concepts that essentially create "other" in the things we perceive.

So, based on that understanding, I can perfectly accept that spirit guides exist as a concept created within our one self, and that our minds see them as other, and the 'influence' of those spirits can be seperated from the influence of our smaller self (the dualistic belief of self, rather than the Oneness of Self). That is why our minds can perceive spirits as something seperate from ourselves and we can come to truly believe within our mind that the actions of those spirits are independent to what our own. Yet, considering all things as One, leads us to the concept of "we create our own universal perception", and hence why I say that if you choose to believe in demonic spirits then that is what you will create in your life, and why I say that, like the law of attraction, they will be what you want them to be.

It's something we see in Reiki quite a lot, with people talking of the need to ground and protect ourselves during reiki treatments so that we don't pick up 'bad' energy from our clients. From personal experience I've chosen not to believe that I can pick up a clients 'bad' energy, and guess what... I never have. It also relates to the buddhist philosophy of attachments, and the vedic philosophy of living in the present moment (or Eckhart Tolle's "power of now" if you like). Living in the present moment and not getting attached to the past or future, means that you won't pick up and carry somebody's else's negative energy, because that 'negative energy' is simply a manfestation of that person at that time, and not a manifestation of your own self.

Better stop now, as I can tell I'm waffling and probably going to confuse a little. 😀
Hopefully that gives a little insight into why I said what I did.

So, in answer to your question about who can I be sure who I'm talking to if talking to spirits... I'm talking to me Self... and that can be about getting in touch with my intuition and meeting the needs of this present moment. It will only be 'bad' or 'demonic' if that's what I choose... but I don't.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Unlike Giles, I do believe in spirit guides and teachers in the sense that you probably do. Two things stand out for me in this story (although I’d agree with Giles that the writer was looking for outside influences to blame).

One is that she took the spirits that came to her as guides without any checks. In shamanism we make relationships with spirits who are introduced to us by spirits we already know, so that the trust is built up in much the same way as with a human. And the first spirit we meet is our power animal. If you have a good this-world teacher then you will be taught how to find your power animal, which you can trust.

Two – she looked at the whole thing from a Christian point of view, despite her saying that she had given up Christianity. The whole ‘messages from god’ and the ‘white light’ shows that. There are spirits who buy into the whole demon/angel scenario, just as there are humans who do. The writer bought into it. She had seen herself as being on the side of the angels. If she has aligned herself in this way, who can blame the other side, that she calls ‘demons’ from trying it on?

There are ways of doing this safely. Shamanism is one of them.

Yes, I read those things, but my point was that perhaps she was hearing what she wanted to hear, so that she had someone/thing "else" to put the blame on.

Well, the best advice would be not to believe everything you read from other people just from their words. There are many people in this world with many different experiences and beliefs, and there's bound to be ones who say things that you don't want to hear (in fact their the ones most likely to be making a song and dance about it in public, as the ones getting on happily with their way of life are less likely to want to go out there and make sure everyone knows about it).

Hmm.... good question. :rolleyes:

Can I answer yes and no?

Yes I do believe in spirit guides in one sense, but no I don't believe in spirit guides in the sense that you are likely to be meaning it. Sounds odd, I know, but I'll see if I can explain...

From personal experience (putting things to the test personally) I am confident that we live in a world where everything is connected, and that is the world of non-duality (there is no "other"), yet we are attached to our minds and our minds are great at creating dualistic concepts that essentially create "other" in the things we perceive.

So, based on that understanding, I can perfectly accept that spirit guides exist as a concept created within our one self, and that our minds see them as other, and the 'influence' of those spirits can be seperated from the influence of our smaller self (the dualistic belief of self, rather than the Oneness of Self). That is why our minds can perceive spirits as something seperate from ourselves and we can come to truly believe within our mind that the actions of those spirits are independent to what our own. Yet, considering all things as One, leads us to the concept of "we create our own universal perception", and hence why I say that if you choose to believe in demonic spirits then that is what you will create in your life, and why I say that, like the law of attraction, they will be what you want them to be.

It's something we see in Reiki quite a lot, with people talking of the need to ground and protect ourselves during reiki treatments so that we don't pick up 'bad' energy from our clients. From personal experience I've chosen not to believe that I can pick up a clients 'bad' energy, and guess what... I never have. It also relates to the buddhist philosophy of attachments, and the vedic philosophy of living in the present moment (or Eckhart Tolle's "power of now" if you like). Living in the present moment and not getting attached to the past or future, means that you won't pick up and carry somebody's else's negative energy, because that 'negative energy' is simply a manfestation of that person at that time, and not a manifestation of your own self.

Better stop now, as I can tell I'm waffling and probably going to confuse a little. 😀
Hopefully that gives a little insight into why I said what I did.

So, in answer to your question about who can I be sure who I'm talking to if talking to spirits... I'm talking to me Self... and that can be about getting in touch with my intuition and meeting the needs of this present moment. It will only be 'bad' or 'demonic' if that's what I choose... but I don't.

All Love and Reiki Hugs

Hi Energylz

I'm reading that reply as 'no, I don't believe in spirit guides' and a polite way of saying to those that do, 'its all in your head, mate!'
Let me explain why I'm thinking this way.
While I buy into the non dualistic concept in my own way, I see what you refer to as Oneness as everything in existence......you, me, mind, matter, gods, humans, spirits. So we are all not separate but part of One......I imagine this as my hand and my foot being part of my body. Yet, they are separate and perform separate roles when you look at the small picture just like I am a separate person from you. So we live our lives 'separately' and create our realities, right? But we still exist. If I choose to believe you don't exist, that will change nothing, surely. You would still exist......if not in my reality, then in someone elses within the One. But what you seem to be implying is that spirit guides only exist if I choose to believe that. If thats the case, then they should not exist in any one elses reality (yours, for instance) and I think in most peoples book (mine, at least), that means they don't exist because they are not present in our shared reality. So, I guess I'm asking.......do you believe that spirit guides exist in our shared reality as separate beings, like Crystal elf and Energylz? Or are they just figments of our imagination (which can also be real and useful) but nevertheless cannot be percieved by anyone else?
Next question!
Moving back to the premise that we create our reality, how can you be sure that by your beliefs, you have not created a reality where spirit guides don't exist. I know you say you have put things to the test so you believe in nonduality but can someone who not use the same arguement (Crowan, for example, regarding the existence of spirits-in our shared reality) to state some other belief? Whose experience becomes more valid, more truthful? Surely, one of you has to be right and the other wrong. Or are you both correct.....or both wrong. The fact that you've put certain things to the test and found them to be true......does that not mean that you believed those things first, then you created in your reality 'what you wanted to believe'.......just like the rest of us?
Sorry....not trying to dis your beliefs, but we all sometimes seem so sure of what we're saying and maybe non of it is real.....except the 'One body' of which we are hands and feet?!?......whatever that means!

Love
Crystal elf

Sorry....just questioning everything at the moment and your post hit a nerve......

Two – she looked at the whole thing from a Christian point of view, despite her saying that she had given up Christianity. The whole ‘messages from god’ and the ‘white light’ shows that. There are spirits who buy into the whole demon/angel scenario, just as there are humans who do. The writer bought into it. She had seen herself as being on the side of the angels. If she has aligned herself in this way, who can blame the other side, that she calls ‘demons’ from trying it on?

Hi Crowan,

What do you mean by the bit that I've bolded?

Sorry....just questioning everything at the moment and your post hit a nerve......

🙂 No intention to hit nerves, just posting what I perceive. :hug:

I'm reading that reply as 'no, I don't believe in spirit guides' and a polite way of saying to those that do, 'its all in your head, mate!'

I can understand why it looks that way, hence why my first reply did say "Without meaning to offend".

Let me explain why I'm thinking this way.
While I buy into the non dualistic concept in my own way, I see what you refer to as Oneness as everything in existence......you, me, mind, matter, gods, humans, spirits. So we are all not separate but part of One......I imagine this as my hand and my foot being part of my body. Yet, they are separate and perform separate roles when you look at the small picture just like I am a separate person from you.

When you look at the small picture, yes, but that is a dualistic perception of it.

So we live our lives 'separately' and create our realities, right? But we still exist. If I choose to believe you don't exist, that will change nothing, surely.

Erm... yes it would. I would cease to exist.

You would still exist......if not in my reality, then in someone elses within the One.

How would you know?

But what you seem to be implying is that spirit guides only exist if I choose to believe that. If thats the case, then they should not exist in any one elses reality (yours, for instance) and I think in most peoples book (mine, at least), that means they don't exist because they are not present in our shared reality.

I would have to say that's a false assumption. The "reality" you are talking about is not Oneness, it's a perception of mind (what they call ego (ahamkara in sanskrit) in advaita-vedanta teachings), so if one person's ego believes in something then it exists within their ego (and I'm not using ego in the derogatory way we tend to in the West - before I hit another nerve hehe!) and not necessarily in another persons ego, and likewise with non-belief. So, spirit guides do exist in the Oneness because there is a belief that they do (otherwise we wouldn't even have a concept of spirit guides) coming from ego, but likewise they don't exist at the same time.... and hence spirit guides are creations of the ego within Oneness, but the only thing that can truly exist is Oneness itself. (That's why I said my answer was yes and no, and I suspected answering the question may cause some confusion and discussion... oops!)

So, I guess I'm asking.......do you believe that spirit guides exist in our shared reality as separate beings, like Crystal elf and Energylz? Or are they just figments of our imagination (which can also be real and useful) but nevertheless cannot be percieved by anyone else?

I don't believe the spirit guides exist as some seperate entity without any connection to myself, because that is dualistic and I know from experience that dualism is a creation of the ego mind. Within ego mind, yes, spirit guides exist within a persons own dualistic reality, but that isn't the "shared reality". That's not to say it's wrong in some way for a person to believe in spirit guides, but that I don't believe a person should consider a spirit guide as being seperate from themselves and somehow able to influence that person without their own input into that.

I know some people won't agree with that, and that's fine, we can each test it out for ourselves and come to our own conclusions. 😉

Next question!
Moving back to the premise that we create our reality, how can you be sure that by your beliefs, you have not created a reality where spirit guides don't exist. I know you say you have put things to the test so you believe in nonduality but can someone who not use the same arguement (Crowan, for example, regarding the existence of spirits-in our shared reality) to state some other belief? Whose experience becomes more valid, more truthful? Surely, one of you has to be right and the other wrong. Or are you both correct.....or both wrong. The fact that you've put certain things to the test and found them to be true......does that not mean that you believed those things first, then you created in your reality 'what you wanted to believe'.......just like the rest of us?

You may as well ask "what is real?" 😀

I can only speak for what I've tested myself, and I've put many things to the test including communicating with spirit / spirit guides as well as testing non-duality... always gone into things with an open mind, and always open to people letting me know how I can test or re-test things. The thing with the non-duality testing is that the way of determining it as truth for myself was through teachings that were given, and such teachings could be reproduced by others with the same results, whereas the tests for spirit guides have, from my experience so far, not provided any reliable evidence or consistency across different people testing it (and yes I know some people deliberately resist because they aren't interested, so that's accounted for).
I'd be more than happy for Crowan or anybody else to give me some instruction on what to do to connect with spirit guides that would clearly show me that they are more than a construction of perception (or a connection with ones own intuition etc.), and then that will be interesting for me as that will throw a spanner in my current understanding and cause me to re-evaluate everything. 🙂

Sorry....not trying to dis your beliefs, but we all sometimes seem so sure of what we're saying and maybe non of it is real.....except the 'One body' of which we are hands and feet?!?......whatever that means!

No need to apologise. As I've said on other threads before, it's good for me to be questioned and to have to re-evaluate what I'm saying and understanding. As for the "one body"... have a go at some exercises...
😉

Love
Crystal elf

All Love and Reiki Hugs :hug:

What do you mean by the bit that I've bolded?

The writer bought into it. She had seen herself as being on the side of the angels. If she has aligned herself in this way, who can blame the other side, that she calls ‘demons’ from trying it on?

Almost everyone in this country (and many others) has been brought up in a religion that has a good/evil dichotomy. Even religions which did not originally have this seem to have adopted it over the last couple of hundred years – possibly in the hope that Christian conquerors would stop killing them. So, even if someone in our culture has rejected the mainstream religion, there is usually a residue of this dichotomy in their minds.
Shamanic practitioners are just as susceptible to this as anyone else, of course – sometimes whole shamanic communities are influenced. The Catholic influence is very obvious in much of Peruvian shamanism, for example. But the dichotomy doesn’t exist in any traditional shamanism. We are negotiators, standing between opposing sides and not ‘taking sides’.
Some people have bought into the dichotomy, almost always putting themselves on the side of the angels. Some spirits have done so, as well. The writer of the article had put herself (however unconsciously) onto the side of the angels. It is entirely possible that ‘demons’ are entering into the role allotted to them and tempting and attacking her.

The writer bought into it. She had seen herself as being on the side of the angels. If she has aligned herself in this way, who can blame the other side, that she calls ‘demons’ from trying it on?

Almost everyone in this country (and many others) has been brought up in a religion that has a good/evil dichotomy. Even religions which did not originally have this seem to have adopted it over the last couple of hundred years – possibly in the hope that Christian conquerors would stop killing them. So, even if someone in our culture has rejected the mainstream religion, there is usually a residue of this dichotomy in their minds.
Shamanic practitioners are just as susceptible to this as anyone else, of course – sometimes whole shamanic communities are influenced. The Catholic influence is very obvious in much of Peruvian shamanism, for example. But the dichotomy doesn’t exist in any traditional shamanism. We are negotiators, standing between opposing sides and not ‘taking sides’.
Some people have bought into the dichotomy, almost always putting themselves on the side of the angels. Some spirits have done so, as well. The writer of the article had put herself (however unconsciously) onto the side of the angels. It is entirely possible that ‘demons’ are entering into the role allotted to them and tempting and attacking her.

Who is alloting the 'demons' the role? If she is projecting 'evil' or demonizing the spirit and the 'demon' is falling into the role of 'playing demon' , then does that mean that the demon has lost it's power to the woman who sees herself as being on the side of angels?

You seem to have a personal bias towards the demonized - is what I'm getting at:

She had seen herself as being on the side of the angels. If she has aligned herself in this way, who can blame the other side, that she calls ‘demons’ from trying it on?

At what point does you personal life end, and your Shamanic Practitioner life begin. Because according to your 'job description' (quoted below) Shamanic Practitioners (traditional ones) are unbiased negotiators:

Shamanic practitioners are just as susceptible to this as anyone else, of course – sometimes whole shamanic communities are influenced. The Catholic influence is very obvious in much of Peruvian shamanism, for example. But the dichotomy doesn’t exist in any traditional shamanism. We are negotiators, standing between opposing sides and not ‘taking sides’.

Who is alloting the 'demons' the role? If she is projecting 'evil' or demonizing the spirit and the 'demon' is falling into the role of 'playing demon' , then does that mean that the demon has lost it's power to the woman who sees herself as being on the side of angels?

You seem to have a personal bias towards the demonized - is what I'm getting at:

No one is doing any allotting. For their own reasons, spirits choose what to do. And this battle of ‘good’ and ‘evil’, the forces of ‘God’ on the one side and ‘The Devil’ on the other has been going on for a long time – I suspect (at least in part) taken into the spirit worlds by people who have form allegiances during human life and have carried them wholesale into death.

I put inverted commas around ‘demon’ because there are other meanings of the word – my spirit teachers reserve the word for mercenary spirits, who are called in to do a job, for which there will be payment made. What I’m talking about above might be better called ‘followers of Satan/the Devil’, but many people – the writer of the article included – term this type of spirit ‘demon’.

Do I seem to have a bias towards that side? I find both rather irritating. I’m certainly not aware of any bias. I don’t like this type of ‘demon’, and I don’t like angels, either. I try to stay out of it. My advice to anyone else would be to stay out of it, also.

At what point does you personal life end, and your Shamanic Practitioner life begin. Because according to your 'job description' (quoted below) Shamanic Practitioners (traditional ones) are unbiased negotiators:

I don’t suppose that any of us are completely unbiased. We’re only human. And certainly many modern shamanic practitioners – doing an extraction, for example – are trying to help the human client over the intruding spirit. However, what I said was that the good/evil dichotomy doesn’t occur in shamanic cultures – unless it is brought in by Christians or similar. There are always spirits whose agendas are not as ours are, but negotiation is always going to be the preferred option, because force creates a confrontational situation, which leads to side-taking. Apart from anything else, that isn’t efficient. The aim is balance between humans and the spirits.

The writer bought into it. She had seen herself as being on the side of the angels. If she has aligned herself in this way, who can blame the other side, that she calls ‘demons’ from trying it on?

Almost everyone in this country (and many others) has been brought up in a religion that has a good/evil dichotomy. Even religions which did not originally have this seem to have adopted it over the last couple of hundred years – possibly in the hope that Christian conquerors would stop killing them. So, even if someone in our culture has rejected the mainstream religion, there is usually a residue of this dichotomy in their minds.
Shamanic practitioners are just as susceptible to this as anyone else, of course – sometimes whole shamanic communities are influenced. The Catholic influence is very obvious in much of Peruvian shamanism, for example. But the dichotomy doesn’t exist in any traditional shamanism. We are negotiators, standing between opposing sides and not ‘taking sides’.
Some people have bought into the dichotomy, almost always putting themselves on the side of the angels. Some spirits have done so, as well. The writer of the article had put herself (however unconsciously) onto the side of the angels. It is entirely possible that ‘demons’ are entering into the role allotted to them and tempting and attacking her.

There didn't seem to be much tempting, only demoralising and attacking by way of physical ailments. It's hard to see what the 'demons' got out of this encounter, she makes no mention of them trying to corrupt her.

There's always the possibility, of course, that this woman suffers from (or did at the time) paranoid delusions. She could have been going through a psychotic episode. The account is a little short on actual substance.

No one is doing any allotting. For their own reasons, spirits choose what to do.
.

Earlier on the you said, about alloting:

.
It is entirely possible that ‘demons’ are entering into the role allotted to them and tempting and attacking her.

Also,

I don’t suppose that any of us are completely unbiased. We’re only human. And certainly many modern shamanic practitioners – doing an extraction, for example – are trying to help the human client over the intruding spirit. However, what I said was that the good/evil dichotomy doesn’t occur in shamanic cultures – unless it is brought in by Christians or similar. There are always spirits whose agendas are not as ours are, but negotiation is always going to be the preferred option, because force creates a confrontational situation, which leads to side-taking. Apart from anything else, that isn’t efficient. The aim is balance between humans and the spirits.

I know that earlier on you said that the good/evil dichotomy doesn't occur in shamanic cultures - unless brought in by Christians or similar. But, you also said, earlier on (as I reiterated in brackets) that the dichotomy doesn't exist in any traditional shamanism:

Shamanic practitioners are just as susceptible to this as anyone else, of course – sometimes whole shamanic communities are influenced. The Catholic influence is very obvious in much of Peruvian shamanism, for example. But the dichotomy doesn’t exist in any traditional shamanism. We are negotiators, standing between opposing sides and not ‘taking sides’.

...and that "We are negotiators, standing between opposing sides and not 'taking sides'" - I thought you were referring to yourself as a traditional shaman ie; without the dichotomy and not 'taking sides' - which is why I pointed out what looks like a bias:

She had seen herself as being on the side of the angels. If she has aligned herself in this way, who can blame the other side, that she calls ‘demons’ from trying it on?

Usually, when someone says "who can blame ____" in the way that you're using the phrase, it's tantamount to saying "Yeah, well - I understand who can blame them..... why not!"

There didn't seem to be much tempting, only demoralising and attacking by way of physical ailments. It's hard to see what the 'demons' got out of this encounter, she makes no mention of them trying to corrupt her.

There's always the possibility, of course, that this woman suffers from (or did at the time) paranoid delusions. She could have been going through a psychotic episode. The account is a little short on actual substance.

This was my first thought although without knowing for sure, and with all the strange things people encounter, it could easily be a real encounter.

I dont have alot of experience with guides and paranormal (I'm attuned reiki so I used to just browse the reiki forum but found this one and became interested) from everything Ive read on the subject even when she thought they were her guides it didnt seem right, guides fighting over how much they love her, getting her a job etc etc (it might just be me but that isn't what I believe they would do)

It just made me wonder if for those that believe in seperate beings, being their spirit guide, how can they really know who they are communicating with?

There's always the possibility, of course, that this woman suffers from (or did at the time) paranoid delusions. She could have been going through a psychotic episode. The account is a little short on actual substance.

Would you say that this means that spirits were not involved?

It just made me wonder if for those that believe in seperate beings, being their spirit guide, how can they really know who they are communicating with?

How do you know, in this reality, with other humans, who to trust?

Would you say that this means that spirits were not involved?

I knew of course as soon as I'd posted that that would be your response, Crowan!
I suppose I meant to give an alternative view on behalf of those who don't believe in such things as demons or spirits.

I'd still like to hear your response to the rest of my post.

How do you know, in this reality, with other humans, who to trust?

Well I'm not one to trust just anyone, that could prove foolish. I generally follow my instincts and see visual things like body language etc (the psychology I study has helped lol)

But I don't see spirit guides etc, and in the story the 'spirit guides' turned and revealed their apparent true selves, Im not sure it would be easy to see that coming?

Hi, WS,

Re ‘allotting’ – I guess I was careless in my terminology. In a way, we (incarnate humans) do the allotting in that we create a vacancy which a spirit fills, but there’s no one (as far as I can tell) directing it.

When I say ‘traditional shamanism’, I am meaning shamanism that has been practiced in an unbroken line since prehistoric days, without any great input from conquering cultures. I wouldn’t in any way be able to class myself as such. However, because my spirit teachers have talked to me about this, I do my best to maintain an unbiased stance.

As for ‘who can blame…?’, I simply meant that it doesn’t surprise me. Our buying into their ‘war’ means that we should not be so amazed if either side takes us at our word, and acts accordingly.

I just read the article and am reconsidering my position on Spirit Guides:

Once when he was feeling playful, Saul actually converted an ordinary Sprite into an alcoholic strawberry daiquiri.

heeeheee! Hmn... alcoholic strawberry daiquiri . I'm sure I can fashion a pendulum out of something :D...........

Hi, WS,

Re ‘allotting’ – I guess I was careless in my terminology. In a way, we (incarnate humans) do the allotting in that we create a vacancy which a spirit fills, but there’s no one (as far as I can tell) directing it.

When I say ‘traditional shamanism’, I am meaning shamanism that has been practiced in an unbroken line since prehistoric days, without any great input from conquering cultures. I wouldn’t in any way be able to class myself as such. However, because my spirit teachers have talked to me about this, I do my best to maintain an unbiased stance.

As for ‘who can blame…?’, I simply meant that it doesn’t surprise me. Our buying into their ‘war’ means that we should not be so amazed if either side takes us at our word, and acts accordingly.

Alright Crowan, I understand what you're saying........ :);)

Thanks for your replies:)

Well I'm not one to trust just anyone, that could prove foolish. I generally follow my instincts and see visual things like body language etc (the psychology I study has helped lol)

But I don't see spirit guides etc, and in the story the 'spirit guides' turned and revealed their apparent true selves, Im not sure it would be easy to see that coming?

This is much easier with shamanism, of course, because we first meet our power animal – which is part of us. I’ve never known anyone get the ‘wrong’ power animal. Our power animal introduces us to our spirit teacher. So we have a direct line of trust.
Also, because we go to our teacher’s home rather than calling him/her here, we see him/her in his/her own environment. And it’s much more of a community. I’ve met other people’s teachers. Other people have met mine. They have friends and spirit helpers of their own. I share teachers with some people I know.

I just read the article and am reconsidering my position on Spirit Guides:

heeeheee! Hmn... alcoholic strawberry daiquiri . I'm sure I can fashion a pendulum out of something :D...........

Oh dear, I just finished reading the article (past the daiquiri bit that made me giggle)... not much to joke about thereafter - oh dear! Don't think I'll be picking up a pendulum after all.........

There didn't seem to be much tempting, only demoralising and attacking by way of physical ailments. It's hard to see what the 'demons' got out of this encounter, she makes no mention of them trying to corrupt her.

There didn't seem to be much tempting, only demoralising and attacking by way of physical ailments. It's hard to see what the 'demons' got out of this encounter, she makes no mention of them trying to corrupt her.

Why would the ‘demons’ have to get anything out of the encounter? I guess I mentioned temptation because it’s part of the stereotype. Besides, I don’t know what they wanted – maybe to upset her, maybe to lead her to lose soul (which she probably did from the accidents, if not from the shock of her spirits turning on her).

There's always the possibility, of course, that this woman suffers from (or did at the time) paranoid delusions. She could have been going through a psychotic episode. The account is a little short on actual substance.

If she were seeing me as a client, I would deal with it exactly as presented. What some would call ‘a psychotic episode’ others would call ‘an encounter with spirits’. It all depends on what you’ve been trained to deal with.

🙂 No intention to hit nerves, just posting what I perceive.
:hug:

Thats ok......the only reason you hit nerves is that recently I've rejected certain beliefs in favour of beliefs that resonated with me only to find myself questioning the newer beliefs because sometimes they've not been what I've experienced, but just different teachings with no more validity than my initially rejected beliefs.

I can understand why it looks that way, hence why my first reply did say "Without meaning to offend".

When you look at the small picture, yes, but that is a dualistic perception of it.

Well, I think dualistic perception has a place in physical reality; we use it all the time even if only to recognise that it is not true reality.

Erm... yes it would. I would cease to exist.

No. You would still exist, but I wouldn't be aware of you.......or even worse, I would be aware of you and deluding myself!! Surely, you either exist or you don't.......my perception of you is only relevant to me.

How would you know?

I wouldn't, but thats not the point. I would still be able to verify your existence should I choose to, then I'd know. If you didn't exist, then I would verify that you didn't exist (outside my imagination, that is)

I would have to say that's a false assumption. The "reality" you are talking about is not Oneness, it's a perception of mind (what they call ego (ahamkara in sanskrit) in advaita-vedanta teachings), so if one person's ego believes in something then it exists within their ego (and I'm not using ego in the derogatory way we tend to in the West - before I hit another nerve hehe!) and not necessarily in another persons ego, and likewise with non-belief. So, spirit guides do exist in the Oneness because there is a belief that they do (otherwise we wouldn't even have a concept of spirit guides) coming from ego, but likewise they don't exist at the same time.... and hence spirit guides are creations of the ego within Oneness, but the only thing that can truly exist is Oneness itself. (That's why I said my answer was yes and no, and I suspected answering the question may cause some confusion and discussion... oops!)

I think we are saying the same thing in a different language, but I'm struggling to find the right words. You say, they exist within the oneness; I say they exist within imagination! I'm familiar with the concept of ego, but if you start bringing vedanta into this, we might as well forget the discussion! Am I correct in assuming that according to vedantic knowledge ego does not exist......in fact, nothing exists except 'that'.......all else is just illusion or maya.

I don't believe the spirit guides exist as some seperate entity without any connection to myself, because that is dualistic and I know from experience that dualism is a creation of the ego mind. Within ego mind, yes, spirit guides exist within a persons own dualistic reality, but that isn't the "shared reality". That's not to say it's wrong in some way for a person to believe in spirit guides, but that I don't believe a person should consider a spirit guide as being seperate from themselves and somehow able to influence that person without their own input into that.

Finally! A straight answer!

I know some people won't agree with that, and that's fine, we can each test it out for ourselves and come to our own conclusions. 😉

You may as well ask "what is real?" 😀

I can only speak for what I've tested myself, and I've put many things to the test including communicating with spirit / spirit guides as well as testing non-duality... always gone into things with an open mind, and always open to people letting me know how I can test or re-test things. The thing with the non-duality testing is that the way of determining it as truth for myself was through teachings that were given, and such teachings could be reproduced by others with the same results, whereas the tests for spirit guides have, from my experience so far, not provided any reliable evidence or consistency across different people testing it (and yes I know some people deliberately resist because they aren't interested, so that's accounted for).
I'd be more than happy for Crowan or anybody else to give me some instruction on what to do to connect with spirit guides that would clearly show me that they are more than a construction of perception (or a connection with ones own intuition etc.), and then that will be interesting for me as that will throw a spanner in my current understanding and cause me to re-evaluate everything. 🙂

As constantly seems to be happening with me!!!
Eventually, I will have to test some things more deeply!

No need to apologise. As I've said on other threads before, it's good for me to be questioned and to have to re-evaluate what I'm saying and understanding. As for the "one body"... have a go at some exercises...
😉

Thanks for the link (and humouring my outburst). I haven't read it yet, but I will; it looks interesting.
I fear I've gone way off topic, though!

All Love and Reiki Hugs :hug:

Hugs back!
Crystal elf

I’ve just read more of this Stacie Spielman’s website. She considers all spirit guides, power animals, teachers, guardian angels (in fact all angels that contact humans), aliens etc. to be demons. Crystals only heal because demons are manipulating them. Reading certain books – Stephen King, for example – allows in the demons who have attached themselves to the books. Same with films. Ghosts are really demons. So are children’s imaginary friends.

She’s selling books about all this, of course.

Which would back up my paranoid delusion suggestion, if, of course you believed in such things! 😉

Which would back up my paranoid delusion suggestion, if, of course you believed in such things! 😉

Sounded like a fairly typical believer in the absolute truth of the bible (whichever particular version she chooses) to me.

I’ve just read more of this Stacie Spielman’s website. She considers all spirit guides, power animals, teachers, guardian angels (in fact all angels that contact humans), aliens etc. to be demons. Crystals only heal because demons are manipulating them. Reading certain books – Stephen King, for example – allows in the demons who have attached themselves to the books. Same with films. Ghosts are really demons. So are children’s imaginary friends.

She’s selling books about all this, of course.

There's plenty in the Bible about angels contacting humans - the Archangel Gabriel springs to mind!