I thought someone had better get the ball rolling on this one, so have posted one of my old messages!!
I wonder whether anyone else here saw the programme the other week on Discovery Channel, and what thay thought of it.
On the one hand, there does seem to be compelling evidence for the fact that the mummy in question, so called Lady X is indeed Nefertiti, due to the double peirced ears, the marks around the head, indicating the wearing of a fight fitting crown, the age at the time of death, and perhaps most importantly the facial reconstruction. On the other hand, there also seemed to be several anomalies within the narrative, where important pieces of information were not mentioned.
Firstly, the assumption that Nefertiti and Smenkhare were one and the same, which most Egytologists would dispute. This is not to say of course that Joann Fletcher's theories are not correct, as we should not dismiss her views out of hand. However, it does concern me that there was no mention whatsoever of the body in tomb 55, which although not postively identified as such, most scholars now agree is Smenkhare. It has now been proven beyond doubt that this was a male Armana burial, who was under the age of 25. The only male that seems to fit this description is Smenkhare. The fact that the measurement of the skull are identicle to that of Tutankhamun, would also seem to suggest that this body was a close relative of the boy king, leading to speculation that Smenkhare may have been an older brother of King Tut, possibly with the same mother, Kiya. Again though this cannot be proven.
I was also very surprised to hear the references to Akunaton having buried in the tomb found for him at Amarna, as I have always been told that there is no evidence to suggest that this tomb was ever used. I must say that I found the idea that Nefertiti survived her husband and changed her name somewhat strange, and all my instincts tell me that this cannot be true. It is known from various ancient Egyptian texts (I forget which exactly which ones) that after Nefertiti vanished during the 14th year of her husbands reign, he married their eldest daughter and she became chief wife. If Nefertiti was still around, there would be no need for him to do this. I also found it most unlikely that she would go back to Thebes and try and make peace with the Priests from the Temple of Amun, after all the effort she and her husband had made to install the new religion, not to mention build an entirely new capital city.
To me none of this really adds up. I just wondered what anyone else thought.
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Hiya June
Well I didn't get to see the programme cos I is poor person and only gets terestial and freeview therefor miss out on all wonderful chanels that you see.[sm=mecry.gif]
Like you, & according to the programme I saw, Nefertiti died (I thought they'd found her mummy - or was that her daddy lol soz).
Got to go now & find out more, but definately she was dead cos whatisname married daughter didn't he - wasn't that one of the reasons put forward for poor Tut being deformed?
I am fascinately by Egyptians so got to find out more.
Peace and tranquility to all
Marnie[sm=newangel.gif]
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Thank you for starting rolling the ball, i was so afraid "Ancient Mysteries" would not come back in the new set-up. What a relief to see it back again. Alas, I have not seen the program, so i cannot say anything about it.
Nefertiti was not an egyptian it seems, perhaps from one the Mediterranean countries.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Hello Talisman
Yes I saw the program Nefertiti Revealed and thought it would be great if it was her, but I felt that this was just one woman's (Joanne Fletcher's) opinion of who it was and she was making lots of asumptions. Joanne said that there was evidence to suggest that the arm that was found next to the mummy didn't belong to the mummy, but she didn't offer any proof that the other arm found cast aside on the floor among some of the wrappings did belong. I thought it was all a bit wishful thinking. I was impressed with the reconstructed face though, it did look incredibley like the bust of Nefertiti.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Hello Talisman,
Yes, I saw the programme about Nefertiti. No mention was made to her background or her family (Meritaten, Ankhsenpaaten and the other daughters) and so the history of Nefertiti could not be truly revealed. I agree with Susan52, this was Joanne Fletcher's wishful thinking, and she was hoping that the mummy was Nefertiti's. Without further investigation and a closer look at Tomb 55 in Thebes, the pieces are like so much undone jigsaw. What was your opinion, June?
Blessings, Pats.
[sm=hug.gif]
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
pretty much the same as yours. The evidence is inconslusive and more research needs to be done. What I am also interested in is the identify of the 2 bodies found with the so called Lady X. One is said to be Akhunaton's elder brother, Prince Tuthmose, who according to Graham Phillips may or may not have been Moses.
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Woh Talisman I didn't hear about the theory about Tutmose being Moses - please tell me more or at least where I can get to find out about this interesting theory. Why am I so interested well you see when I was born I was named margaret but my surname/family name is Moses.
Marnie
Peace and tranquility to all
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Very interesting Marnie. All is revealed in Graham Phillips' book The Moses Legacy. I know there are several other fans of Graham's work on HP, and this book like all of his other ones is very well written and impressively researched. The book is basically about Graham's search for the so called mountain of God and the real identity of the Biblical Moses. He comes to the conclusion that Moses was actually two seperate characters, set in two diffeeren time frames, one of which was Akhunaton's elder brother, who should have been heir to the throne, but mysteriously disappeared.
All that is known of Tuthmose, is that he acted as Governor of Memphis, before joining his father’s chariot forces against the Ethiopians. After a successful campaign he then settled into the religious life, becoming High Priest at the Temple of Ra in Heliopolis. Tuthmose then disappeared, and subsequently his brother, Akhunaton, ascended to the throne. Manetho’s Aegyptiaca, which was compiled in the 4th Century BC, from records preserved at the Temple of Ra in Heliopolis, tells of a revolt of slaves during the reign of Amenhotep III (AKhunaton's father). This is said to have taken place at Avaris, the former Hyksos capital.
The Hyksos were the rulers of northern Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period. They are believed to have been a group of Semitic peoples who originated in the kingdom of Mari in Syria, near the present day border with Iraq. The Mari kingdom was invaded by the Babylonians around 1800 BC, and its capital destroyed. Their people then migrated into Canaan where they formed an alliance of tribes powerful enough to eventually threaten and seize control of northern Egypt. Egypt then became divided into two different kingdoms. While the Hyksos controlled the north, the Egyptian Pharaohs maintained control over their somewhat smaller kingdom to the south. For a while then Egypt had two seperate kingships.
According to the Hiram Key, written by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas the Hyksos Kings desired the secrets of Horus, that would enable them to travel to the stars and achieve immortality. A plot was hatched that would enable them to do this, which resulted in the murder of the native Egyptian Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao II. When his mummy was found it was found to bear exactly the same wounds as described in Masonic rituals concerning Hiram Abif, architect of the Temple of King Solomon. This had led Knight and Lomas to suggest that the two men may have been one and the same.
After his father’s murder, the Pharaoh’s son and successor launched an attack on the Hyksos and drove them out of Egypt, back into Canaan. The Eighteenth Dynasty Pharaohs then swept through Canaan, laying waste to the country. The Hyksos were finally taken back to Egypt as slaves by Tuthmose III.
It seems that in the original version of the Hebrew Bible the word Hebrew is actually written as Habiru. It is in this form that the oldest reference to Hebrews was found during the excavations of Mari. Several inscriptions on the walls of Egyptian tombs from around 1500 BC also give reference to these people, where they are depicted as slaves.
According to Manetho, the slaves were helped by a Priest from the Temple of Ra at Heliopolis who had abandoned the Gods and been condemned to bondage. Manetho also says that this Priest was a former soldier. Phillips surmises that this same Tuthkose could have been Akhunaton’s older brother, and may also have been the Biblical Moses.
Hope this helps anyway Marnie. Obviously there is a lot more to Graham's book than I have written above. If you want to know more then this and all of his other works should be available from amazon.co.uk
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Thanks June this sounds like a very interesting book, I shall try and find it, I think it will make a most interesting read.
This idea that Tutmose could be the biblical Moses is one that I have also harboured for quite some time, so of course anything that can help to shed light on this would be interesting to me.
Oh by the way my maiden surname is Moses.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
If you read the theory by Anthony Kerstein, he believes that Akhenaten was Moses.
It is Kersteins theory that for a short time he was banished and had to flee with some of his priests to a mining colony in Sanai, then re-appeared 25yrs later during the 18th Dynasty to re claim his throne.
It is one theory that i do not go along with, if you look at all the evidence of a co-regency with his father Amenhotep III, it does not allow for a disapearance of 25yrs.
It is also quite interesting to me why the Cairo museum will not allow DNA to be taken from King Tut to test with the mummy of the believed Smenkhkare, this would determin if they were indeed related, as would the testing on the mummy of Amenhotep III, is he the grandfather or father of these two prince's.
A subject i could speak on forever, sorry for waffling on.
Kybalion x
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
I believe they did test the body of Amenhotep III and compared the DNA to that of the 2 foetusses in King Tut's tomb, proving that they at least are related, and therefore in all likelihood King Tut's children with jhis wife, Akhnuanton's third born daughter Ankhesenenpaaten. Fascinating stuff indeed. I don't think in all honesty there is much of King tut left to test anway though, even if the Egyptians would give permission.
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
This is interesting - how do I find out more about the Moses connection?
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Another very interesting book is Kingdom of the Ark by british female Egyptologisy Lorraine Evans, who also happens to be a very close friend of Graham Phillips. This is a very well researched and written book, based around the legend of an Egyptian Princess named Scota who came to Britain, and gave her name to the Scottish people. Lorraine has identified the Princess, through a process of elimination as none other than Meritaten, AKhunaton's elder daugher, who was married to Smenkhare, and both of whom mysteriously disappeared after a few short years on the throne. Smenkhare of course may or may not be the body in tomb 55, but no trace of his wife, Meritaten has ever been found.
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
According to Gerald Massey in his book 'Ancient Egypt, Moses may have been a mythical person. The whole book can be read on the Net - a bit heavy going, but click on 'find' for Moses, better still - 'Mosheh' and one should find the relevant bits.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Hello June,
You may have filled in a 'hole' in my knowledge, here. I found out that Meritaten was cast out when her husband Smenkhkare died. Apparently, both of them were extremely unpopular, but until the king (Pharoah) died there was nothing that anyone could do. She was banished to a foreign land, and I thought that it was to Kush that she went. However, now that you have unearthed this legend, I do believe that Meritaten may well have ended up in Scotland, as Lorraine Evans says.
I have been to Graham Phillips' lectures, and he is an extremely interesting man.
Love,
Patsy.
😀
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Two programmes on tonight on Channel 5 are 'Hittites:The Lost Civilisation' at 8.00 and 'Nefertiti:Search for the Lost Mummy' at 9.00.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Thank you Spiderman. The Nefertiti prorgamme you mention is in fact the same one originally shown on Discovery that I mention at the beginning of this post, so those without cable may finally be able to see it. It certainly makes interesting viewing as you can see from the discussion above.
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Fascinating thank you all for sharing
I was also led to read the 'Hiram Key' it made good light holiday reading while cruising down the nile. Not so impressed by 'Out of Egypt' by Ahmed Osman, although it is said he is considered to be a respected scholar in Egyptology.
love beyond measure
kim xx
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
I believe it was the queen that they found soo much eveidence that it was her, However there is alwayse some one wanting more hence we are going to have to wait a few more years to find out.
Via DNA Testing
Surly what they did fond out was enough
I hope its not for soem one else to get the lime light
Love
Dragon
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Just caught a program on the History Channel "Digging for the Truth with Josh Bernstein " He was searching for Nefertiti mummy and there was a very good search from tomb 55 (the mummy with the similar face was determined not to be her and the arm did not belong) and then to to the major museum at Cairo and then to Carnak? and Amhoteps? tomb. He talked about the theory that Nefertiti may have become Smenkhare in order to take over after her husband died noting this change to a male persona was done earlier by the woman that was the regent for the 12 year old heir that later tried to erase her from history(sorry I forget her name)and at Carnak she and Akhunatun's temple was obliterated later by another religion as was her legacy. Akhunatun's tomb was empty and they believed priests brought the mummies to a safe place. One thing for sure it makes for a huge puzzle. The tape can be purchased at historycannel.com.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
I didn't see the programme you mention, but the other female Pharoah that you mention was Hatshepsut, who ruled easlier on during the 18th Dynasty. I personally do not believe that Smenkhare and Nefertiti were the same person, as all the evidence is purely circumstantial. Until her body is positively identified and the DNA compared to that mummy from tomb 55, nothing is certain.
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Hello June,
I agree with you. I think that Smehkhkare and Meritaten were two different people, perhaps unpopular for some reason, but separate historical figures.
Love,
Patsy.
xxxxxx
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Hello jbarry,
June is the real Egyptologist on HP, but here are some bits that I have picked up over the years. It seems that you have two different pharoahs and eras intertwined here. Hatshepsut was the woman Pharoah who passed herself off as a man, who had a hatred for commoners and who tried to overshadow the male heir Tuthmosis lll. When she died, he tried to obliterate her monuments but wasn't successful with all of them. She was related to him in some way, think she was an aunt.
Akhenaten was a later Phaorah. He tried to adopt a monotheistic regime in Egypt as an experiment. It went disastrously wrong because he tried to impose it on people when they were quite content to worship their pantheon of Gods. Some say that he was influenced by events in Palestine and their liking for one God, but this is still conjecture. His statues, monuments and king-list registers were obliterated mostly by King Horemheb, an army general who came to the throne on a very tenuous thread. He was married to Nefertiti's sister Mudnojmet, which entitled him to assume the role of Pharoah.
Love,
Patsy.
😀
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Was Akhenaten the one that possibly worshipped the sun and had his city built in a desolate area, I heard one story that suggested his monotheistic worship may have influenced christianity.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Hello jbarry,
Yes, King Akhenaten (Amenhotep lV) did build his new city Akhetaten out in the desert. It's now known as Tell el-Amarna. He thought of the Sun as the one and only God. It was always called 'Aten' but was worshipped along with many other gods until this King made it the 'only' god to be worshipped. His beautiful and moving 'Hymn To The Aten' was later translated into Hebrew and emerged in Psalm 107.
It is a moot point about who influenced whom. It is thought that the migrations from Israel to Egypt were influencing Egyptian society before Akhenaten's time, and he just imposed monotheism on to his subjects. Whatever it was, Akhenaten is regarded as the first montheist in history. (June - you'll be able to confirm or deny this.)
Love,
Patsy.
😀
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Yes, many have called him the first monotheist, among other things! There is so much stuff written about Akhunaton that to be honest it is difficult to really know where to begin when wading through it all and trying to understand. It is in some ways a bit like trying to piece together a gigantic jigsaw puzzle, when half the pieces are missing - a very difficult job to do.
I personally though do not believe a lot of the stuff that has been written about him, that he was a mad man who tried to impose his views on others, like a modern dictator. In esablishing his own capital city, all he doing was what the Egyptians had been doing for centuries - establishing a cult centre for his own God. Evidence from Amarna reveals that the Aten was not the onky God worshipped in the city, as the houses revealed a myriad of other Gods that were also being worshippped, which Akhunaton must surely have been aware of.
I have written an article on AKhunaton, entitled Son of the Sun which contains more information than I really have room for on here. It can be found on my website at [DLMURL] http://www.talismanskull.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Son%20of%20the%20Sun.htm [/DLMURL]
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Do we know at what time Moses came on the scene?
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Various schools of thought on this one, but the most commonly held view (among the so called alternative historians at least) seems to be either the reign of Amenhotep III or IV (AKhunaton). The 2 reigns may though have overlapped, since there is some evidence to suggest a co regency during the last 12 or so years of Amenhotep III's reign. There is no real proof of exactly when though really, like so many of these things everyone has their own views and theories, and nothing can really be proven. When it comes down to it all, it is all really conjecture, for each of us to discern.
June
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
ORIGINAL: Talisman
Another very interesting book is Kingdom of the Ark by british female Egyptologisy Lorraine Evans, who also happens to be a very close friend of Graham Phillips. This is a very well researched and written book, based around the legend of an Egyptian Princess named Scota who came to Britain, and gave her name to the Scottish people.
June
The Scots are named after a Celtic tribe from Ireland. The Scota who is supposed to be the Ancestress of the Scots was, in Irish legend, one of the wives of Mil Espàine. I had heard the daughter of Pharaoh legend before, (she was supposed to be the daughter of Pharaoh Cingris, whoever he is!) and it is quite widespread, but no-one really believes it! And she's supposed to be buried in County Kerry.
You might find this attempt at building her family tree interesting - follow the link to see which Pharaoh the author thinks is Cingris.....
There's a Biblical link too:
Alternatively, Scota/Scatha/Scathach/Scath are all forms of the same name, meaning "Shadow, shade"; "The Shadowy One" "She who strikes fear", Goddess of the Land of Scath; Dark Goddess.
To pagans she is the Goddess in the destroyer aspect. Also a warrior woman and prophetess who lived in Albion (Scotland) probably on the Isle of Skye and taught the martial arts. Cuchulain, possibly Ireland's greatest warrior hero, was one of her students, as were many other Red Branch warriors. She is the patroness of blacksmiths, healing, magick, prophecy, martial arts.
But for me, it's significant that Scota itself is a Latin name, meaning 'an Irish woman'. The rest is just myth, I think.
RE: Nefertiti Revealed
Dearest loved ones,
I have been reading your posts and have still a few questions about the thruth about Smenkhare and Nefertiti.Is there any actual, solid evidence to support any current theories related to this topic?
Any information or help would be very lovely, and greatly appreciated.
love, lurve, blessing and patsy to you all,
Lovely Jubblies.