British wheel vs yoga alliance

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi Kokopelli,

I don't have any experience of being on the inside of any of the organisations, but having attended the Yoga Show in Olympiawith my teacher, I can definately confirm your suspicions about the differences of opinion between them!

What kind of Yoga are you interested in training in? Iyengar is a pretty good place to start and you'd get a very thorough & comprehensiveeducation.There somehow seems to be more stability with them too...however saying thatI know I couldn't study that system because I find it much too static and perfectionist!!!

I don't think I've been much help really, but one thing I definately wouldn't advise is the BSY correspondance course. There's so much to Yoga and none of it can be grasped by reading throughtheinadequate amount of paperwork you would be provided with. It's ahands onsubject and has to be learnt through experience and constant practice. I know BSY do offer the occasional practical lesson, but I really don't think that's enough... have you seen the thread on Correspondance Courses in the Student and Training forum? There's somevaluable insights that other HPers have shared there and it might help you make up your mind.

Sorry I can't be of more help,

Azalia.

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi Azalia,
Thanks fpr the reply. Ultimately I would love to teach children to young adults, giving them a good foundation and introduction to yoga. I did try a few iyengar classes in Canada and even their beginner course was pretty hard core. They were trying to get me to do a scorpion in the first class, and looked down on you if you felt uncomfortable in any posture...very competitive!! mind you, they did have me hanging from ropes on the wall which was really invigorating.

So I figure hatha is the way to go which is leading me to the british wheel. The right teacher will surface when the time is right....K

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi Kokopelli

I trained with the BWY (British Wheel of Yoga) and don't have any knowledge of yoga alliance teacher training or have attended any of their teacher's classes so can only speak about the BWY.

The BWY course is an excellent grounding in training you to be a safe teacher without having to follow any particular doctrine or method thus leaving you free to develop your own style or work with other teachers from different traditions. John Scott (Ashtanga yoga) actually recommends the BWY course to interested Ashtanga students who want to train as teachers as there are no ashtanga teacher training courses in the UK (as far as I know).

The focus in year one is mainly physical and professional (lesson plans etc), with year two spent on energy (chakra, prana, mudra, bandha,studying the Hatha Yoga Pradipika),Unit three focusses on vedanta philosophy (Bhagavad gita and upanishads) and the yoga sutras ofPatanjali as well as Mantra and Unit four on consolidating your knowledge so far and demonstrating ability to draw up lesson plans etc.
I say year one and year two as these units tend to take a year whereas unit 4 is much shorter so 3&4 tend to be done together in year 3.

Throughout the course you will do mini teaching practices so you build your confidence in teaching to a group.

The BWY has been around since 1965 and works closely with the Sports council over legislation. Some might say that yoga has no place in sport (and I'm inclined to agree) but if we accept that the bulk of yoga classes involve some sort of physical aspect then it perhaps seems more appropriate. It is also recognised by the Register of Exercise Professionals (REPS).

They also do a moduleon teaching children which you might wish to do once you have completed your basic teacher training if you wish to specialise in this area.

Teachers who do the training may have a particular leaning towards one area or another of the syllabus (e.g. my partner is BWY & John Scott trained so is very good at Anatomy and Physiology and I'm more interested in the philosophy side- a friend of mine is really into mantra) so although you will get the syllabus covered regardless of the teacher training you, it is worth talking to the trainer about where their personal focus is as that might give you an idea of how they will approach the course/additional information they may include.

You will find that preference is often given to those that have done the BWY foundation course (although not always) and you do need to have had at least 2 years experience with a teacher who is BWY qualified or affiliated to the BWY so that you have a range of experience however if you are just short of the 2 years, you might be allowed to do the course provided you continue your classes whilst training.

Whoever you decide to go with, I suggest you have a good chat with the tutor to see if you are on the same wavelength as this will ensure you get the most out of the training.

The BWY course is hard work (especially if you are also working full time) however it is immensly rewarding and you will have a good foundation to work from. I completed my course in 2002 and have continued to study and learn - yoga is such a vast subject we could live for ever and not understand it all.

Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy your journey.

Om shanti

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

"there are no ashtanga teacher training courses in the UK (as far as I know). "

You mean apart from [link= http://theyogashop.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=65_81&products_id=1800 ]this one...[/link]

or [link= http://theyogashop.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=65_81&products_id=1801 ]this one...[/link]

or [link= http://www.chiyogaschool.com/vision.php ]maybe this one[/link] (which actually runs2 courses)...

or [link= http://www.unionyoga.co.uk/TT2006/index.php ]either of these two[/link]...

and those were just with a simple Google search.

I think you are being quite misleading with your idea of what John Scott would recommend (I have no doubt at some time he said hte course was good, but if it was essential why did he not do the course himself?). When he was still in the UK I am sure he would have recommended his own TT course, or that people take the traditional Ashtanga Vinyasa path of actually going out to Mysore to study with Pattabhi Jois.

The truth is, it's all very political and you cannot ignore that. People are being EXcluded from mebership of certain organisations not on the basis of of their ability but on the basis of which training courses they went on (i.e. read, who they chose to give their TT course money to).Yoga is about INclusion and the fact that membership as a teacher of organisations like the BWY is dependent on which courses you have done, NOT your abilities as a teacher, reveal the true intent of these organisations. If they were truly interested in being INclusive then the only condition of membership would be that your teaching ability would be put to the test (bysimple observation).

A BWY course, or any other course, does not a Yoga Teacher make. The worst adjustment I ever had was from a SYTA teacher (reciprocal agreement with BWY) when she pushed me down further in a squat and injured my lower back. I have sat at conferences and given advice to BWY teachers who were very uncertain about things I felt were basic, and this was at a time when I wasn't even a teacher. I had a student from my classes who was part way through a BWY TT course and her practice was worse than most beginners coming in. I have a student who is a BWY teacher who wants to learn about Pranayama from me because her TT course didn't prepare her for that, the tutor nowdeparted from the BWY sceneunder a cloud of dust (so I hear).

Whether you are capable of being a teacher or not is down to your experience, your learning, and your ability to pass things on. There are no shortcuts. Follow the path that your heart leads you down, BWY, YA, BSY or whatever. They are all just labels, badges, and even if you have them but are not complete as a teacher your students will see through you. A depth of practice, committed study and open heart are the signs of a true teacher, not a certificate on a wall. Cetainly not the 'type' of certificate you have on the wall.

Take care,

Scott

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi Arjuna Weeping aka Scott

AsI said 'I am not aware of any Ashtanga courses in the UK..' I'm not aware of them because I am not attracted to this style of yoga - doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it - just isn't my path so thank you for looking them up and letting those who might be interested find them (interesting to see thata lot of them are in Scotland).

There is a bit of a difference between a guru led practice where you follow your own practice and a safe and empowering practice where you are taught about your anatomy and how it works - have no idea where the courses mentioned fall so not meant as a criticism. I understandthere were issues with the JS TT course and whether he had the authority to teach them. My partner, who does practice Ashtanga, also refers to the fact that knee operations are common among Ashtanga students...

You are right thata certificate does not a yoga teacher make as once someone has qualified there is no one regulating how they teach from there on in (unless someone makes an insurance claim) regardless of the tradition underwhich they have taught which is why I emphasised talking to the tutor to find out whether they had a particular leaning towards a specific part or style of yoga that might appeal to the student.

A good physical practice does not a good teacher make either as, those who find the physical part easy (perhaps having a background in dance or just being naturally flexible), may not appreciate the difficulties of someone who finds it more challenging - how do you engage those who are limited in their abilty without making them feel inadequate and EXcluding them? Yoga is not just about being able to do amazing things with the body - something I think we lose sight of in the West. When we talk of someone's practice are we just referring to their asana practice or their yamas and niyamas? If someone doesn't do a physical practice but follows Patanjali as best they can does that make them less able to teach yoga? Does not the HYP suggest that if you are healthy the asana are not essential?

At the end of the day whether you are capable of being a good teacher has nothing to do with your own ability but your abilty to pass things on. I have been taught by people with amazing knowledge and intelligence but have been totally incapable of putting across their knowledge (both in and out of a yoga environment) and I have also been taughtmany things by people with an ability to pass on knowledge and to inspire me without any formal or academic knowledge.

I am not saying BWY is the only or even the best way, just that it is one way and a way that has a very good basic foundation for teachers. It has its faults, as do all the other courses you could do, hence my recommendation to talk to your potential tutor to see what direction they have.

Someone's ability will always be subjective and so arguably political. I do not think the BWY was trying to be political, they were trying to offer an umbrella underwhich yoga organisations could shelter. Would it be better for a specific style of yoga to be holding that umbrella so that we would find only a certain style could be taught in the west?

I am sorry that you have had a bad experience with a teacher from the SYTA.

As you rightly say, an open heart and committed study will see someone becomming a quality teacher but keep the ego in check (i know mine needs a regular slap now and again to keep it down!!)

I try to teach from my heart, from the anatomy book and from my soul, whether or not I am any good at what I do - only my students can judge!

hari om tat sat
x

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi Dawn

First, apologies if my post in any way read as critical of you or the BWY, it's not what I meant. I know several BWY teachers whom I respect without reservation. I also know that all of them are committed to the path of Yoga and to connecting with all teachers and students who are willing and open to do so.

WhatI see in all Yoga organisations however is that when these individuals come together this openness is lost behind infelxible rules - I mean, there have to be rules don't there?! Well yes, but that doesn't mean that the rules need to be limiting, they should be expansive rules that create possibilities not diminish them. One friend is senior within that orgainisation and agreed that the set-up is wrong as it is, excluding many teachers (myself included) from teaching membership on self-imposed technicalities that have no substance.

In my case, despite the fact that I am a competent teacher I am not even eligible for the intergration course until I have been teaching for 3 years. This is ludicrous, since with 7+ classes a week I have already spent more time in the classroom than many existing teachers do in 5 years! That's beside the point though, as asking me to do an 'integration course' is as foolish as making a driving instructor take lessons - would we do that? No, we would simply TEST that instructor's abilities, and that is where the problem lies IMHO. All organisations seem to want their teachers to do their courses, pay money to them (or their affiliates) - it is an attempt to monoplise the market, not to form an inclusive organisation for all. The solution is simple - teachers put themselves up for membership and then their abilities are tested in classes.

I don't know why you wrote that paragraph on physical practice, I hopeI never implied anywhere that I thought posture practice was everything (or even a major part) in Yoga. My own studies and teaching are grounded in the Krishnamacharya approach, so perhaps you will appreciate that nobody understands more that you must adapt the practice to the students, not the other way around. Perhaps I misled you with a little knowledge of the Ashtanga scene, Idid practice in that tradition at one time but I am feeling much better now (joke).

Again, I have no issues with the BWY - my own TT course was Yoga Alliance approved, but I chose not to take out membership with them for the same reasons - although the intent of the individuals who set up these organisations may be pure, the monster that they create often has a life of its own that does not represent the true ideals of Yoga. It is a simple thing that I ask for from any organisation - do not judge potential teaching members on anything other than their ability to teach. They should not assume "your way" is right, but look at "my way" and see if it accords with this thing called Yoga.

Watching how a person conducts their Yoga classes tells you so much more than just how good they are at doing asana - you can tell how they relate to their students, how they pass on what they know, hwo they 'live' Yoga, how their students relate back to them. There has to be a certain amount of "assumption" in any decision abotu whether a person is good enough to be a BWY, but then that already exists. The BWY assumes because someone completed one of their training courses that they are competent enough to be members, and yet I have already listed several occasions where I found this not to be the case. So why show trust for one applicant but not for another?

The solution that I see is simple - separate the training from the assessment. You can still have BWY-recommended training courses, but it should not be a pre-requisite for these to be attended. THEN you have a separate process where any applicants (from any background) go through the SAME assessment (not necessarily a one-of test, perhaps over a period of time) to show that they meet certain known standards. Those taking BWY training courses may still have an advantage,

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi Scott

It's great when you hi-jack someone else's thread isn't it tee hee!

The reason I mentioned the physical bit was not directed at yourself but you aren't the only one likely to read the thread and sadly, so many people are body focussed and they seem to miss the point so their yoga practice actually becomes no more than a gymnastical exercise. Shame really when yoga offers so much more.

The bit about 'being a good teacher has nothing to do with your own ability' was specifically meant at the physical end as some people will struggle to do certain postures but if they understand the mechanics of the posture, could still teach it safely. (Acutally think there is more risk with someone who is naturally able as theymight not understand what it is like to find something difficult to do).

My defence of the BWY was based purely on my own experience and I guess I was lucky that my trainer was training as a McTimmoney Chiropractor so had good anatomical knowledge (he had also recently lost his wife so was particularly interested in the philosophy too). I'm also a bit of a 'self starter' when it comes to learning so have continued my examination of yoga and study.

As with any teacher, some will continue to learn whilst others just see it as 'I've qualified now' and do nothing else.

I agree that the idea that you should have to do another course to join is unfair provided the course you have already done covers the same (or better) syllabus and an assessment programme where you are observed teaching a few classes would be better. However I also see the value of an additional course if there was an area not covered inyour original syllabus (or not in enough depth). I also think being observed every few years would also be good (whatever training you've had) to ensure you are still teaching to a good standard.

The problem with a purely assessment led INclusion could be that assessment is always subjective and whilst some things might be obviously wrong to do it is difficult to assess something like a yoga class without bringing in your own personal preferences and experiences. The fact that the majority in the BWY posts are volunteers makes this more difficult (even if they got paid for the assessments, having enough people to assess other styles of classes locally when some areas struggle to assess their own style of teachers makes thisdifficult).

I recently assessed a BWY student who obviously had an ashtanga background but was teaching rather than leading the class and explaining safety and philosophy etc. I was quite comfortable with giving her a positive response on her feedback form but also felt I had to point out that she needed to bewary on her final assessment as I know some BWY are qute anti-ashtanga andmight be put off by it.

How could someone from BWY assess a style that is totally different such as Kundalini yoga? The practice is very different to most hatha style classes and it would be very difficult for someone like myself (who has only had the opportunity of a few workshops) to know whether what they were teaching was good or bad.

It all gets very complicated and I guess that when the BWY was formed 40 years ago, they were the main provider of teachers so it didn't really matter so much, but now, yoga has grown so much and so many different styles (some traditional and some 'made up' by modern day teachers) are around it is difficult to say what is 'good' yoga and what is not.

The fact that someone could set up a yoga class with no qualifications (either in anatomy or in yoga) and start to mess around with peoples bodies worries me greatly and I guess that is partly why the BWY are trying to ensure that all teachers are well trained. I also don't think all students would realise if their teacher wasn't that good because if that is the only yoga class they have been to they might just thin

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Dawn

You know I hope it doesn't come across that I am disagreeing with you, I agree with what you say and my comments are mostly just add-ons.

At a personal level I don't think I need to worry about BWY membership - next year I start a 4-year Yoga Therapist training program with Kausthub Desikachar (patron of the BWY) in India,to formalise the training I have done with him and his father (TKV Desikachar) in Chennai and London over the past few years. I understand that KHYF ([link= http://www.healingyogafoundation.com/asp/khyf.asp?Pg=MM1_1 ]Krishnamacharya Healing Yoga Foundation[/link]) are currently being assessed for their UK Teacher Training courses to be accredited with the BWY. I would imagine the same will be done for the (1000 hour) course. However with the joy of getting to spend another 4 weeks a year in India with Kausthub and at least 8 weeks of internship at the [link= http://kym.org ]Krishnamacharya Yoga Mandiram[/link] I am not particularly bothered about membership or not.

Most of my classes are through the local council, NHS and (previously) local College, so no problems for me there, but I do wonder how some others will be able to 'prove' their teaching experience? Surely the BWY have thought of this, and I have to say that although being cautious is good there must be a certain element of trust. Mind you, as most people have to hire halls to take classes it shouldn't be too difficult to at least prove that they have hired the hall for a certain period of time I guess. It is just important when rules like these are created that they are designed as tests and not obstacles.

Your point re different Yoga styles is a good one, but easy to solve. If membership of the BWY is for teachers of a specific approach to Yoga (however broad ad general), then it is necessary to define what that approach is in terms that people can match to. In other words, if they are going to be BWY members htey need to pass the assessment - to do that, they need to know the standards. If their approach to Yoga is so different that they cannot meet those standards they can either forget about it or they can gain additional training as necessary. It is a flexible, modular approach that will (here he goes again with those caps) INclude more people i nthe long run.

I was reading (again) a very interesting book by Marshall Rosenberg (Non-Violent Communication) and I think what he says there applies very much (in fact the whole system is wonderful, if only i could get the hang of it all!). He says (to paraphrase) that when someone demands/insists that you do something then you only have two options - resist/rebel or submit. I think that is what happens with a lot of people - they see that some of the conditions of BWY teaching membership (length of study, doing certain courses) are arbitrary and unrelated to a true measure of teaching ability. Some then submit to this and jump through the hoops, others do not think it worthwhile/necessary/acceptable. The rebellion effect has been worsened by what is largely perceived as the BWY trying to monopolise Yoga in general in the UK - whether this is true or not, this is the message sent out quite often (e.g. the REPS for BWY members only fiasco, or many BWY teachers' insistence that only BWY teachers are good enough).

I think that with some (relatively) minor changes in the processes and also the language of the message sent out by theBWY, this perception could change, and more and more good teachers can join the ranks - that could be the beginning of a truly INclusive Yoga organisation that meets the needs of all (or as many as possible) within the UK. I would imagine that is the goal of the BWY, but I guess they don't see how possible it could be without any lowering of standards.

Good ideas about contininual assessment and professional development - could be quite easily achieved with a formalised 'peer review' system.

Cheers,

Scott

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

WOW!!
I never thought I would open up such a can of worms..... makes for interesting reading though.
I decided to plunge into the BWY teacher training course mostly because I really liked the tutor and how she will run the classes. I am really excited by it all though, and start at the end of the month. There is a wealth of knowledge and info here at hp. I hope you guys don't mind me posting some questions if I get stuck. All I know now is that I know nothing......so much to learn!!
Thanks for the advice,
kx

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Kathryn

LOL, that can of worms has been open a long time.

The important thing is to find exactly what it seems you have found - YOUR path. Not determined by someone's arbitrary rules but by your desire to study with that tutor - the importance of the nature of the relationship between teacher and student can never be overstated.

Your questions are always welcome, from time to time we may even have answers :)Mostly though the answers in Yoga only come from within, but sometimes a few well-placed words can point you to look in the right direction.

Enjoy your course!

Scott

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi Scott and kokopelli.

Sorry hadn't responed to your last post but I was sulking (not really - teaching and out to the theatre luvvie darling) - well OK I WAS just a teeny weeny (LOT) jealous of your plans to go to India for a month to study with Kausthub - hope it goes well[sm=bouncy.gif].

No I don't think you were disagreeing with me - it's quite interesting (and useful) to see how others perceive the Wheel & I'm in no illusion about their shortcomings but I also feel they are a well meaning bunch and believe they are trying to be inclusive whilst also trying to protect the integrity of yoga teaching. Unfortunately that is not an easy task when the people trying to sort it are volunteers rather than able to devote time as a properly paid job. I know that they are looking at, and working with, other schools to include them but it won't be a quick thing as there are so many and it takes (volunteer) time to deal with the paper work. It also doesn't help when there are schools out thereclaiming to train teachers in a weekend (e.g. yogabugs) even if they have no yoga experience [sm=banghead.gif].

Love these 'smileys'!

You are right, kojopelli, to choose a teacher that you feel comfortable with, and scott is right to point out that BWY teachers are not masters of all that yoga entails. I personally feel that when I finished my teacher training certificate it was the beginning of my journey, not the end of study but I appreciate not everyone will have the same attitude.

Good luck with the course and feel free to post any queries you have, we might not know the answers, but we will probably know a yogi/ni that does.

All the best to you both

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

The whole subject of teacher training in yoga does seem to be a total can of worms and makes the task of finding a course that will be widely respected and recognised really tricky!
I have heard really good reports of the month-long Sivananda teacher training course, taught all over the world (though the one in Southern India is meant to be especially good, I think).
No matter how good it is, though, I can't help thinking that a month (even though it is intensive) is just not long enough to give a grounded teaching platform and would need to be supplemented by other training. Anyone got any thoughts on this, or any direct experience of the Sivananda training course?

Lucia

RE: British wheel vs yoga alliance

What ever path of training you take, BWY or intensive month long training, it is only the beginining. Never cease to be the student! I did a month long, whichSivananda course , which is yoga allliance recognised in the States and Canada. I continue to supplement my learning with weekend courses run by the Sivananda centre. Your certifcate is only the start of a never ending journey of yoga. And of course, you must be happy in your course. If not look eleswhere

Om Shanti

I'm of to my own class now (as a student)

Purplewolf

Yoga Teaching Training

Oh Yes, of course Yoga is essential part of our life, we can't neglect this one so we should do yoga in the free time, so there is some [url]Yoga Teacher Training Courses[/url] which is very appreciation by us.......

re british wheel vs yoga alliance

Hi, to be quite honest why bother with any of these federated bunch of commitees, if you have seen or read the book Animal Farm by George Orwell you will know exactly what they are about.
FACT. You dont need to join any alliance or wheel to participate or teach yoga, nobody will tell you this because they are all clamouring for dominance of the yoga world.
So when yoga alliance uk, says it is setting the standard, it isnt.
When british wheel of yoga says, its the governing body, it isnt.
THERE IS NO REASON TO BE A PART OF THE ANIMAL FARM.
Take yoga for what it is. the union of yourself and the universe.
Yoga is full of fakirs that is true even in India, but these megalomaniacal power grabbers take the biscuit.
Power to the peole. Che