so true.
beware, this Paul Mc Cartney video is shocking, because it s reality.
=
veggie issues
faddette said
if you dont do anything to face and solve the problem then you 're part of that problem.
I would agree with that, but then I am a veggie.
Some posters on this thread cannot see that there is a problem.
Others see a problem as shown by this post from Myarka
I think everyone would agree the world is in a food crisis. Some would argue simplistically that it's due too the world's population being too high. Others would argue it's due to global capitalism, or many other things.
but don't know how to address it.
Some people would see it as a problem if their pet cat was run over by a car but not if a male calf was taken from it mother to be exported for veal production and slaughter.
The whole issue is very subjective, but discussion is always good.
"Every truly great new idea goes through three stages - derision, discussion, then acceptance " Einstein (who was a veggie himself BTW)
|Some people would see it as a problem if their pet cat was run over by a car but not if a male calf was taken from it mother to be exported for veal production and slaughter.
I do have a problem with "white" veal production, but I don't have a problems with British organic "rose" veal production.
Myarka.
yes I can agree with you and all that you wrote above Myarka.
and as you said, the debate goes on between vegetarians and meat eaters.
however about the food crisis, do you not believe the link between too much meat being eaten (yes by too many people. the earth has never counted so many humans and the number just grows and grows.) is causing too much pollution but also responsible for the clearing of land that was once able to feed the people in the countries where now soya and other cow/pig-orientated cereals now grown?...
to me, the problem is complex:
-suffering. and no slaughterhouses are not milder than what the videos show. If you want I can invite here on the HP Forum a man I once knew intimately who is deeply afftected by working when he was 16 in a abattoir, and he can talk about the healthy and not traumatic reality of animals knowing instinctively what was going on before they even came down (forced) from the lorries. He will tell you about the nightmares he has still 25 years later on about the crying of the cows. with tears. sorry to be drumming emotional drama. but if that was a child, we wouldnt be here discussing this. it s animals and their right to welfare. still in the 21st century...Is humanity really progressing?
- the killing of babies. and teenage cows and pigs and hens.
- the pollution. green house effect etc.
- the food deprivation of poor countries as they are forced to covert to growing one kind of cereals.
- the loss of habitat and therefore extinction of countless animal species because of McDonald and the beef industry in general.
- the loss of forests. McDonald and the Amazon forest. as simple as that. green house, climate change, we go back to that.
...........Fewer and fewer of wild animals (loss of habitat), more and more of meat-intended farmed animals, pollution, degreadation, loss of forests, poor countries becoming poorer and hungrier. It think thats what we call a Whole and something as "trivial" a one specie diseappearing can have a dramatic effect of the whole chain but by the time we become compassionate enough to see it, it is too late.
however about the food crisis, do you not believe the link between too much meat being eaten (yes by too many people. the earth has never counted so many humans and the number just grows and grows.) is causing too much pollution but also responsible for the clearing of land that was once able to feed the people in the countries where now soya and other cow/pig-orientated cereals now grown?...
This is the problem not just with meat production, although I only eat locally souced meat, fed on locally sourced food stuffs. But you only paint half the picture, what about palm oil production? Not used to support the meat industry but used to support the processed food and cosmetic industry
to me, the problem is complex:
We agree with many issues, but you put a vegetarian slant on them.
-suffering. and no slaughterhouses are not milder than what the videos show.
The majority in the UK are better. Milder is a strange word, there's nothing mild about death.
- the killing of babies. and teenage cows and pigs and hens.
What has age got to do with it?
- the pollution. green house effect etc.
Over consumption of the west is driving global warming, food production is only part of that equation.
- the food deprivation of poor countries as they are forced to covert to growing one kind of cereals.
Why, because of the west's over consumption. Look at how much food is wasted? Unfair trade kills, period. But it's all unfair trade that causes this, not just just meat production. For example look how the US controls the worlds rice and cotton markets? You can't blame that on meat production.
- the loss of habitat and therefore extinction of countless animal species because of McDonald and the beef industry in general.
- the loss of forests. McDonald and the Amazon forest. as simple as that. green house, climate change, we go back to that.
People who care for the environment don't eat at McDonalds, so I don't see what that's got to do with meat?
...........Fewer and fewer of wild animals (loss of habitat), more and more of meat-intended farmed animals, pollution, degreadation, loss of forests, poor countries becoming poorer and hungrier. It think thats what we call a Whole and something as "trivial" a one specie diseappearing can have a dramatic effect of the whole chain but by the time we become compassionate enough to see it, it is too late.
All to do with the developed world's over production, want everything out of season and not caring about the cost to the environment. It's nothing to do we meat production it's about a consumer society that wants everything bigger, better, now and cheap. Deal with those issue, and don't blame the meat eaters for the worlds problems. Tackle globalisation and there you might find the answers to your problems.
Myarka.
veggies issues
Myarka,
You said to Fadette
We agree with many issues, but you put a vegetarian slant on them.
true, but by the same token you put a meat-eater's slant on yours ! 😀
All to do with the developed world's over production, want everything out of season and not caring about the cost to the environment. It's nothing to do we meat production it's about a consumer society that wants everything bigger, better, now and cheap. Deal with those issue, and don't blame the meat eaters for the worlds problems. Tackle globalisation and there you might find the answers to your problems.
Don't you consider than globalisation and meat-eating/production are linked?
I would say it's everything to do with meat production and so does the United Nations Agriculture Division viz :-
In November 2006 the United Nations released a report called "Livestock's Long Shadow - Environmental Issues & Options" from their Food and Agriculture division. This publication aimed to assess the full impact of the livestock sector on environmental problems, along with the potential technical and policy approaches to mitigation.
The report stated that the livestock sector was one of the top 2/3 most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global.
The findings of the report suggested that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change,air pollution, water shortage, water pollution and loss of biodiversity.
Based on this report the senior U.N. Food & Agriculture Organisation official Dr Henning Steinfield stated that the meat industry is "one of the most significant contributors to today's most seriuos environmental problems." and that "urgent action is required to remedy the situation".
Following a Life Cycle Ananlysis approach, the report evaluates "that livestock are responsible for 18% of green house gas emissions - which is more than that of transport."
The full text of this article can be accesssed at Wilkipedia which I wouldn't say is a resource that puts a vegetarian slant on anything !:D
Quite the contrary - we can all do more if we energetically take off the blinkers, and wake up to what is really happening the world over.
I also do plenty to justify my stance on meat-eating, and give many man-hours each week to other deserving ecological plights in my area, so I don't appreciate your tone Fadette.
Myarka,
You said to Fadette ... true, but by the same token you put a meat-eater's slant on yours ! 😀
Actually, no he doesn't. His responses are broader and balanced.
veggie issues
His responses are broader and balanced.
I agree with that Scott, but there is still a meat-eater's slant there !
I also do plenty to justify my stance on meat-eating
I am curious to know why you feel the need to justify your stance on meat-eating, Gorseflower? And to whom do you feel you have to justify it?
true, but by the same token you put a meat-eater's slant on yours ! 😀
My slant is the sanctity of creation. Therefore I believe all food should be honoured and that we should give praise for its life from the humble spec of flour to the sunday roast. I find it amazing that the things I eat take weeks, months or years to grow before I can eat them. That deserves the highest honour.
To me, GM and intensive crop production is just as abusive and immoral as intensive animal farming.
This is driven by commercial pressures and controlled by a fairly small minority. Their goal is not to feed, but it's make money.
You will do more for the environment if you eat locally produced food than if you adopt a vegetarian or vegan diet. Many people are even fooled to think eating organically is more environmently friendly.
Although I'm a strong supporter of eating organic food, I do not support food that's flown half way accross the world, or uses huge amounts of plastic sheeting for crop protection.
Myarka.
going back to the title of this topic, the way I see it it is 2 ways just thought of it! If glass walls are bloody then no one can see how the slaughter goes on but if it is clear with animals being killed then people can see! To me it wont work because no one likes being told to change their diets, I dont like being told I am not allowed biscuits because i need to loose weight, this push to make meat eaters change into vegetarians/vegans wont work. no up to them if they want to..
On the other hand most people have been brough up eating meat so will not want to stop unless they want to..and if they do good for them but if not their choice.
agree with the fact that meat takes ages to digest thats why I gave up meat as always made me constipated , bloated and not feeling great.
Amethystfairy:)
Well, Podorama, my post was mostly a mild response to Fadette's comment on being apathetic and sitting around doing naff all about anything.
Just because I am not a vegetarian, does not mean I have no worthwhile gestures to make in this world. I don't need to join Friends of the Earth to know I am making a huge difference where it matters to me and mine...and local wildlife too, just so you know.
My justifications for meat-eating allow me to make an informed choice, which is all anyone can do - make a decision that will grow and change with them as life goes on.
Perhaps my use of the word justification was what threw you. I choose inappropriate wording at times, but surely you can get the gist of it all without marking me out as prey too.
Just because I am not a vegetarian, does not mean I have no worthwhile gestures to make in this world.
I agree - I never criticised you !
Perhaps my use of the word justification was what threw you
Yes, it was. As I do not know you, I can only respond to your posts as they appear.
surely you can get the gist of it all without marking me out as prey too
.
No I can't. If you use inappropriate words then people can't be blamed for getting the wrong information !
I wonder why you think I would mark you out as "prey"? :confused: I was asking for clarification because I didn't understand what you meant. Or is the word "prey" inappropriate as well?
You knew who my post was directed at, and you pretty much knew the context of it. What further clarification is needed for such a throwaway comment of no importance that has no continuity with the rest of the thread?!
My only conclusion was that you were looking for someone to humiliate, so I responded accordingly (my apologies).
Thanks for being the first ever to kindly and discreetly flag up my poor use of the English language, it really kills me to think that no-one can understand my posts. :005:
this conversation is like 5 people talking different languages.
Myarka emphasizing the locally organically produced and the need to re value food that we take for granted. and I agree. but you question what age has to do with it and suffering? shall I really comment that? how can one make you feel compassion for babies being killed if you cant? as for meat and global warming, it s been well documented above (thanx Podorama), it s a well known facts and I honestly thought you knew, thats why I didnt bother copying those facts that make people talk now even in the tube in Paris. and Im also lazy, that s why I didnt go into copy paste the enourmous internet / newspapers documentation around cows livestocks and global warming. the link between beef and climate change is not news anymore..
Gorseflower having decided he/she likes meat too much to give it up then find reasons to justify it. WHY-and all the other who posted earlier about those trendy science supported blood based diets (it s the new thing at the moment, another deeply religious , sorry, scientific "truth") - dont you just say "I love meat"?
why seeking political reasons for claiming a right to eat meat, which from what I remember from 9th January 2010 western society, is not yet prohibited, have no fear.
now this dicussion is getting like a repetition of justifications for choosing to eat meat (sometimes I cant stand my folks the French but at least they dont go into pseudo argumenst about needing meat or the Right to Eat Meat, they just say " it s bleeding delicious" and although I dislike that, they are sincere and brief) and saying that trauma doesnt make people change.
Jesus, I cant believe Im still in this "discussion", honestly. Either you care or you dont, whatever the shape the facts are presented to you. If people are stubborn and say "noone will force/prevent me from eating....this or that", then good for them, it s kindergarden philosophy. and alike, when I see tv adverts trying to moralize me and being condescendant by supplying me with graphic and shocking (how dare they? showing me the stupid and ugly road victims!) with their "dont drink and drive", you know what I do? well, I drink plenty gin and tonic and go for a ride. O joy. in the name of freedom and individual choice. what happens as a result is not my business.
last post about this topic, this has been fun, thank you all and may your colon take the strain over the years if your heart is not the ruler in your choices.
**with moderator's hat on"
Cm'on folks, surely we don't need to remind you all of the site rules, to respect each others' views.;) Please lighten up and stop having a 'pop' at each other, otherwise the thread may have to be closed.
Moonfairy
On behalf of the Moderating Team
Myarka emphasizing the locally organically produced and the need to re value food that we take for granted. and I agree. but you question what age has to do with it and suffering? shall I really comment that? how can one make you feel compassion for babies being killed if you cant?
I have compassion for human babies being killed through starvation and disease. It breaks my heart to know millions of children die every year because of unfair trade an capitalism. I can't comprehend how humanity allows this to happen, but is more interested in building the tallest building, or how people sit back while there are individuals that have so much wealth, they could wipe out poverty. I don't understand how a person can turn their back on a starving child or baby.
Yes I feel compassion for babies, and I will spend my time fighting their cause and highlighting the inequalites that allows them to starve or die through lack of health care. I believe passionately that all people are equal and that all people should share the same human rights.
But I cannot compare a young animal on the same level as a human baby because that is not natural. If an animal is bread for food, then its purpose is for food and shouldbe honoured for that. But I find the whole idea of comparing animal rights with human rights as disgusting. In my view it's just another excuse not to feed the poor and not to have compassion for your fellow man.
as for meat and global warming, it s been well documented above (thanx Podorama), it s a well known facts and I honestly thought you knew, thats why I didnt bother copying those facts that make people talk now even in the tube in Paris. and Im also lazy, that s why I didnt go into copy paste the enourmous internet / newspapers documentation around cows livestocks and global warming. the link between beef and climate change is not news anymore..
Again you miss my point, it's over production that contributes to global warming and therefore to say beef production is responsible for it is a misrepresentation. Because I would be the first to campaign against South American beef production. There is no way that I would defend such a destructive form of farming.
I don't agree with GM food production, therefore I don't agree with GM feed stuff production and therefore I don't agree with deforestation to create the the land to grow feed stuff on. I don't agree with animals that are full of hormones and antibiotics, so I'm not going to defend something I don't agree with.
Myarka.
Gorseflower having decided he/she likes meat too much to give it up then find reasons to justify it. WHY-and all the other who posted earlier about those trendy science supported blood based diets (it s the new thing at the moment, another deeply religious , sorry, scientific "truth") - dont you just say "I love meat"?
Being quite frank but respectful, I think you've missed my point entirely.
Like I said : I eat meat, but can take it or leave it. If we don't have happy wild game or beautifully free-farmed meat, then we go without. Simple as.
You are offensive, and in my opinion needlessly so. There is plenty of good humour and understanding in this thread, you just need to take a breath and see it.
If we don't have happy wild game or beautifully free-farmed meat, then we go without.
I love this time of year with all the game that's available. We live near a big country estate (NT), and threfore game is very plentyfull.
Myarka
this conversation is like 5 people talking different languages.
I think you have hit the nail on the head Fadette.
This is the only problem with trying to have an indepth discussion on forums such as these. Because we cannot see each other and the subtle nuances of facial expression and body position, misinterpretations and misunderstundings can occur.
However, it is good IMO to keep airing this topic and the fact that so many people have an opinion on it is also good.
Just a quick post to let you all know that this thread has been moved here to the Vegetarian & Vegan forum.
Best wishes
Moonfairy
HPmods
Best wishes
Moonfairy
HPmods
Is that the forum where I landed when I clicked on the magical 'moved' link? Will miracles never end in this age of technology? 😉
I think the point Fadette being is making in this thread is that if we were more aware of the horrors of the meat industry then we would have empathy and compassion for the animals caught up in it. I'd like to think this is true, but I do think that if slaughterhouses had glass walls then people would put up curtains.
In my experience many of the people who demonstrate that compassion have had a 'light bulb' moment and their attitudes have changed as a consequence. Most people though would rather avoid those moments and nothing anyone says to persuade them of another point of view will change that.
I do believe that there are repercussions for a society that can treat animals the way we do. Breeding animals for their meat is an inefficient use of land and resources. It also has an adverse effect on the environment, but the bottom line is that people like to eat meat, and the level of meat consumption is predicted to double over the next few decades with all the inevitable consequences.
I find the whole idea of comparing animal rights with human rights as disgusting. In my view it's just another excuse not to feed the poor and not to have compassion for your fellow man.
Saint Francis of Assissi recognised the link between animal and human rights. He fed the poor and had the greatest compassion for his fellow man. He said:
If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.
Not to be too off-topic here, but I wonder if the indignation at animal cruelty in food production shown here extends to the boycotting of name brand products that benefit from the exploitation of human workers. Just being curious, so please don't flame me.
I would also ask of those participating in this discussion, of those who are (by choice) herbivores, how many would (if given the opportunity) curtail the rights of omnivores to eat meat? And the obverse, how many omnivores here would force herbivores to eat meat? Again, just being curious. I'm always fascinated by what makes people believe what they do.
Scott, eating animals (and Im not going to be friends with vegans anymore Im sure now) isnt evil in my opinion. Well. to be perfectly honest I have 2 contradicting feelings on this issue. so to continue on my first reply: it s not anti-natural to eat meat as in Siberian Nomads who kill a deer, pray as soon as it s done, name it (same for New Zealand Maori) and feel the soul around them running to the woods (no Im not drunk, I just watched a lot of National Geopgraphic channel). And considering their climate, what else are they supposed to eat? now a friend traveled to Sri Lanka and came back reporting the people were almost totally veggie, and by the way, looked 20 years younger because no wrinkle (yes like you
I find the anectode weird. and no he wasnt veggie, a cliché meat-eater and cook Frenchie actually).
On the other hand, I do feel buddhist monks and the Dalai Lama etc (yogi etc) are right to avoid meat because Meat means the suffering and killing of another animals. I understand their compassion and also their logic: how can you describe yourself spiritual if compassion stops at the human species and if you consume meat which is hard to digest (doctors will tell you the link between colon cancer and red meat) but also seen as pollution (since suffering etc) and therefore is a barrier between one's soul and the Divine.
So no I wouldnt ban meat but yes I d ban industrial farming and any farming that means killing offsprings and mutilation and cageing etc. Like you would yourself Scott be up for the banning of human mutilation and cageing and killing for the enjoyment or even health of other people. and yes before cynics start barking "well then it wouldnt be possible to raise cattle", yes, I believe modern society can do without because the human population is FAR too numerous to be able to have a fair and balanced relationship with Nature anymore. In the light of this imbalance (when exactly does buying a burger or beef at the supermarket involve a risk to be killed or hurt? never.) I believe it is the least we can do to not buy, us individuals, meat.
I also find it funny how many people, if not to say most, blame the governements everywhere for sending the world into chaos and poverty and ultimately disaster, when as I write many animals are being slaughtered after a non-life, and that it is for each of these individuals' taste or rather conditioning. If this planet is going to survive it will be thanks to our actions, individually.
And our relationships with animals goes with it, and if for many they dont see the need to be compassionate towards them and allow them health, freedom and the right to live (I cant imagine Nomads or Maori or Amazon forests' dwellers killing the young and eating the mother! that would mean the end of their animals and their spirit world and ultimately their food source) at least they are starting to see the link between land use (no forest = floodings), pollution and diseases that are contaminating humans (avian flu, mad cow disease) born out those concentration camps. And no Im not blushing for using those words.
Hello Scott,
I don't believe in stopping anyone from doing anything that isn't illegal, as I believe that adults have the right to make their own choices in life.
However, I also believe that sufficient information should be available in order for people to make informed choices.
If people know what is involved in meat production and still want to eat it then they have a right to do just that.
IMO it is not the eating that's morally wrong, it's the cruel unnatural rearing practices and the killing that I have issues with. If someone found a dead pheasant in the road and wanted to take it home and eat it, then I wouldn't have an issue with that.
I also accept that for some people in some parts of the world there is no choice but to eat meat. For example, inhabitants of areas where there is permafrost all year would not be able to grow crops and in such regions might have no choice but to eat seals and fish.
Those of us that live in more temperate climates do have a choice.
I hope that shows you where I'm coming from on this issue. 🙂
Barafundle,
I am saddened at the news that meat cunsomption will double over the next decade or two. What a tragedy and horror beyond imagination. I believe animals have a soul and indeed a bigger, stronger, clearer soul than we have (for they sense things that we cant, for they forgive and love unconditionally and compared to them we re pretty screxxxxed up) and I try not to think of what their collective prayers must be, while in batteries, cages or at the slaughterhouses. something close to the end of humans.
yes I too think awareness comes like a bulb, because people's ability to deal with guilt, conscience and admit mistakes is old history, ie almost transparent. that s why there were so many eager pro-meat posts in this thread. Id like to say nevermind, each thing happens at the right time. Id like to stay moderate and calm but on the contrary,I have been guilty of being cynical and almost personal, because it s not the disagreeing that gets me, it s the million animals in agony as we speak and the people saying "so what?".
maybe a shorter answer to your question Scott:
give people knives and let them hunt, kill and cut up the animals they wish to eat. And let s see the result.
Well said Podorama, it s all about being informed and standing by the choice.
Here's some info about meat production for those carnivores who might be interested in its production ;-
[DLMURL] http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/dirtymeat/index.htm [/DLMURL]
Here's some info about meat production for those carnivores who might be interested in its production ;-
[DLMURL="http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/dirtymeat/index.htm"] http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/dirtymeat/index.htm [/DLMURL]
It's all very well showing worst case farming, which is very rare in the UK. If you only show worst case stuff and half truths, people won't take your campaigns seriously.
Sure, if you eat processed food that uses imported meat then there's no way of knowing where it comes from.
The vast majority of people hate cruelty in any form, perhaps that's why you only show the worst cases.
For example, I know the pork I eat lived outside in the fresh air. However, if you buy imported pork then there isn't the control. But the purchaser has a choice.
Therefore, if you want to argue the case for being vegetarian/vegan based on cruelty/humanity, you should enable your reader make an informed decision, which means not just publishing worst case pictures and videos.
Many of us eat game in the winter months that hasn't gone through the farming system.
Myarka